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Did Warren deserve to die? Did Willow deserve her revenge on him?

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  • Did Warren deserve to die? Did Willow deserve her revenge on him?

    I don't remember ever seeing or reading a thread about this, so thought I might make one of my own...

    Does anyone else agree with the view that Warren deserved to die? I think that his death was well deserved, and Willow got what she was owed. However I draw the line at Andrew and Johnathan... All they were were petty criminals...

    What does everyone else think?
    The master wants you. Throw away your cross, face the master. Your faith against his faith... Could you do that? Is your faith enough?... Then do it... Throw away the cross. Face the master. Faith against faith...

  • #2
    Warren was a terrible person but not one who couldn't be punished by the law. Warren used a gun and he had no power to escape prison. The police could handle him. Willow's revenge was understandable but wrong and the dead he got was disgusting. Even in an almost similar case on Ats (Wesley shooting Knox) there was still the problem that you can't explain the judge and jury that Fred is killed by some ancient demon because of Knox. Doesn't mean that Wesley did the right thing but there was no way that the law could punish Knox. Warren tried to kill Buffy and killed Tara with bullets which is something very 'normal'.

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    • #3
      I have a feeling this thread should be in the boiler room.


      I totally think Warren deserved to die the way he did. He was a terrible monster. Yes, I said monster. That's what we call the things that go on a killing spree and wreak havoc where they go in the Buffyverse. I don't see how Warren is any different than the demons Buffy kills on an everday basis. Yes he could have been dealt with by the law but even us in RL know the law doesn't always work and that people get off from their heinous crimes by a technicality. Warren killed Katrina his ex girlfriend but did that after he pretty much almost raped her or maybe he did, I can't remember that episode very well. I know he took over her mind with his stupid magic "balls" and was going to use her as a sex slave but I can't remember what happened in between the bar and her death by bludgeoning. Meanwhile he didn't give a damn about what he was doing to Katrina or what he had already done to her. Then he goes on to try and kill Buffy multiple times. Only to succeed in killing Tara and would have been a mortal wound to Buffy had Willow not intervened at the hospital. So yeah, two deaths and a couple attempted murders to the same person. I would say that he deserved what was coming to him.

      My main problem with saying that Warren was just an average guy instead of comparing him to a demon, is that he wasn't an average guy and that he was worse than some demons. Take a look at Clem for example. For what we know about him he's harmless and doesn't kill people (only kittens ) and one can assume he's soulless. Unless the whole soulless thing is just for vampires. I'm not very good at remembering the mythology stuff. But even if Clem had a soul, that still makes him a better being than Warren. Or what about that demon in S3 that Faith kills for the Books of Ascension. I know we don't know a lot about him besides that he was skipping town but he didn't look like he wanted to kill the two Slayers when he came across them in the cemetary. Even Buffy says he's harmless and to let him go to which Faith replies, "a demon's a demon." I just can't wrap my head around why it's unjustified to kill Warren when there are demons that the Slayers are killing on a daily basis that are probably better than Warren is. *shrugs*
      T _A _T _E _R _S'____ W _O _R _L _D

      Proud recipient of the "Vagenis Award of Excellence"

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      • #4
        i beleive that warren got what he deserved, ok could have been different. but by the time that willow had got to him her anger was to much. when u love someone u do what it takes. i dont think that the police could have delt with him, willow still would have come after him just like she did with andrew and johnathan.

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        • #5
          I believe that in most states of the USA Warren would have been charged with attempted murder (Buffy) and second degree murder (Tara). Tara's death wouldn't have been judged as any kind of "accident", Warren fired his bullets with lethal intent, the fact that he wasn't aiming at Tara doesn't change the fact that he killed her, although it would mitigate the killing from first to second degree murder.

          I'm not versed in criminal law (and it varies from state to state) but second degree murder generally doesn't carry the death penalty. I suspect that even the combination of Warren's two felonies would make the death penalty questionable in the criminal justice system of California or in those of most states. It certainly wouldn't get him a sentence of torture-execution, which is what Willow inflicted upon him.

          Taking the law into one's own hands always endangers the fabric of human society.

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          • #6
            There is a difference between revenge and justice.

            Not that I feel sorry for Warren, but this is not the just way to deal with such a thing. No matter how it was motivated, Willow still committed a murder (and what a gory one...).

            What Willow did was take revenge. Justice means a trial, and a fair one, and then a fair sentence. It seems Buffy agrees with that, and I couldn't agree more. Since Warren is part of a state and therfore subject to its law, he has to answer to it like any other, and this s the way his fate should be decided.
            Just like Watcher just said: If we all just killed someone who harmed somebody we loved, we'd end up with tribal feuds and in the end anarchy.
            Sin is what I feast upon
            I'm forging my crematorium
            Your tomb is waiting here for you
            Welcome to my ritual

            -Judas Priest, Death

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            • #7
              Honestly I think that he got what was coming to him, but he didn't deserve such a hard and cruel death. His intention wasn't to kill Tara..it just happened. It's not like he was out to get her. He wanted Buffy, which I know doesn't change anything. Someone still died and the blood was on his hands. Willow used her magic/power wrongly and it wasn't fair to use them on Warren when he had no real power of his own. Sure he was super smart and had all the hi-tech gadgets but for her to burn him and then rip his skin off or well I’m not even sure what she did its been so long since I’ve seen it. But its like Nina said its disgusting. In Willow’s defense, I don’t remember if she knew that it was intentional or not at the time. Which again doesn’t change the fact that it wasn’t right.
              Oz: Hey.
              Oz: That girl. Who is she?
              Devon: She's an exchange student. I think she's from South America.
              Oz: No, not her. The Eskimo!

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              • #8
                Well, legally viewed it makes a difference because it is aberratio ictus (tries to hit one and hits the other instead) which would mean attempted murder and accidental killing. But throw the abuse and death (intentional injury with accidental lethal consequence, I'd say - bear with me, I'm translating the German term ) of Katrina in the mix, and a life sentence is highly likely, hitting Tara instead of Buffy won't make much of a visible difference then.
                Sin is what I feast upon
                I'm forging my crematorium
                Your tomb is waiting here for you
                Welcome to my ritual

                -Judas Priest, Death

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                • #9
                  First off, THANK YOU FOR MAKING THIS THREAD!!!!!! I loved Tara and Season Six in general so your idea is fantastic!

                  Okay, do i think Warren deserved to die? Damn Straight! He was a wicked and cruel person who got what was coming to him. Of course, there were ways around it becuase the Police could have probably handled him in some way or another. I dunno, I mean, because I'm a huge Tara fan I'm happy that he was killed, but still think it was wrong in some ways...

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                  • #10
                    no, and buffy explains it best.

                    the human world has human rules. people shouldn't have the right to play vigilante or an executioner.

                    no one deserves to be murdered, and even if you believe in the death penalty, you should at least believe in the fundamental and inherent right to a trial by ones' peers.

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                    • #11
                      I greatly disliked Warren but what Willow did was still wrong. I'd be lying if I said I was broken up about it, because I wasn't. I didn't have any sympathy for the guy even after what Willow did and
                      Spoiler:
                      season eight isn't helping with that, he's even more horrible than he was before.


                      However, it wasn't Willow's place to do what she did. I understand why she did it and that thirst for vengeance and I'd probably want to do exactly the same think in her position, even Xander or Dawn seemed to more or less agree with her and I don't think any of them are bad people for doing so. However, Warren wasn't a demon and could be dealt with under human law so therefore he's out of any of the Scoobies jurisdiction.

                      I've often argued that Buffy shouldn't necessarily rule out killing humans as a rule, I never had a problem with her going after Faith in Graduation Day. However, if those humans can be dealt with by the human world I don't think it's her responsibility or her right. People like Faith couldn't be dealt with by human laws against her choosing and she'd been given many chances to change, but Warren couldn't break out of jail so I don't see why she can't hand him over to the cops.

                      ~ Banner by Nina ~

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                      • #12
                        buffy did kill a slew of LARP dudes in "Spiral" which always was a bit odd to me.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Pagy View Post
                          buffy did kill a slew of LARP dudes in "Spiral" which always was a bit odd to me.
                          Yup, I didn't have a problem with it though. It was kill or be killed, I have no issues with her killing any human in an act of self defence. She's also responsible for killing Gwendolyn Post in 'Revelations' when she cuts her arm off which has the glove on it, sending a lightning beam down and burning her to death. And she also flips over the zookeeper into the hyena pen in 'The Pack' which kills him as well.

                          I think Buffy's entitled to do this when it's either her or them, I have no issues with it. It just becomes a bit more tricky when it's pre-meditated.

                          ~ Banner by Nina ~

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                          • #14
                            Warren got what he deserved (His, "Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to kill that person, I was trying to kill that other person" is the most piss-poor excuse anyone's ever tried to pass off for murder, and people who buy into that need to back up and do some serious thinking) but it wasn't Willow's place to deliver his punishment, and the cost to her was too great. Having said that, though, I understand her actions, because if someone killed my wife in front of me, I'd also hunt him down and kill him, legality and ethics be damned. Probably make him see it coming considerably longer than Warren did, too...
                            "Occasionally, I'm callous and strange..." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"

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                            • #15
                              Yes he deserved it, no I didn't fault Willow for killing him. I did feel bad that Willow went to such a dark place and had to live with killing someone but my feelings? Die Warren, Die! He wanted to play hard ball with the big dogs and he lost.

                              Lucky for Buffy, Willow did become dark, had she not, Buffy would be dead too.

                              Whosoever Shall Call Upon the Name of the Lord Shall Be Saved!

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                              • #16
                                Why would Buffy be dead too, exactly? I don't recall Willow saving Buffy from Warren (of course, I've seen that episode only once, so I might be forgetting something, but I don't recall any of the like).


                                Vamp is right about there being an important difference between killing in self-defence and killing for vengeance. A killing in self-defence is justified and therefore not punishable by the law, whereas killing for vengeance constitutes the crime known as murder.
                                Sin is what I feast upon
                                I'm forging my crematorium
                                Your tomb is waiting here for you
                                Welcome to my ritual

                                -Judas Priest, Death

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Willow removed the bullet that was killing Buffy and healed her.


                                  Question for all the people who are very happy that Warren is dead; what about Andrew? He killed Jonathan and if I remember it right, he had no real trouble with raping Katrina (or was it Buffy?).

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Ah yes, thanks. She did not have to be dark for that though...

                                    Andrew... well, yes. He was an unwilling accomplice, but an accomplice all the same. In the case of killing Jonathan, he was partly under the influence of The First, though he admits in Storyteller that he did not really think Warren was real and did not entirely believe him. So, he was used, but that does not make him entirely unaccountable for what he did.
                                    Sin is what I feast upon
                                    I'm forging my crematorium
                                    Your tomb is waiting here for you
                                    Welcome to my ritual

                                    -Judas Priest, Death

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      This is a wonderful thread and pretty murky issue. Yes, Warren was a despicable person but what Willow did was bad. She crossed a line and Buffy was right when she said that Willow would lose sight of herself if she allowed herself to do that. There are human laws to deal with Warren. There is a difference between killing a demon and killing a human, if that human is worse than most demons. There is a line that can?t be crossed and I think Willow was not thinking of justice, but more of revenge.

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                                      • #20
                                        In my opinion, Warren got exactly what he deserved. He was a evil person who killed someone that didn't deserve to get their life taken from them. If I was in Willow position and someone close to me was murdered in such away. Yes, I would take vengeance in my own hand... I wouldn't let that person live. Which that might be harsh or even unethical, but when someone close to you die that way. All your ethics are pushed out the door.
                                        East Wick Season Two -Coming Soon-

                                        Banner By: Pandora's Box

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