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  • What Event And/Or Plot Point Did You Hate The Most on the Show?

    What Event and/or Plot Point did you hate the most on the show. Explain Why.

    Vote on the Poll and then Choose a few Runner Ups.





    For me it was when Buffy was kicked out of her home in 'Empty Places'

    It's something that still whenever I watch it boils my blood. I just couldn't believe it went down like that. She seemed so on her own and so lost. You know it's true Buffy had been cutting herself off, but who wouldn't start doing that after so much loss and responsibility. I would think her friends, people that have trusted her to lead them, people who she died for.. would never come down on her that hard. And the potencials who added those starky ass comments. Grr.


    I guess some of my backups would be:

    Anya dying
    Angel/Buffy reunion in 'Chosen'
    Riley/Buffy/Vamp trolls
    Buffy working at the Double meat
    68
    The Annointed One Being in Sunnydale
    1.47%
    1
    Angelus Killing Jenny
    0.00%
    0
    When Angel Came Back, Buffy Was Seeing Him Secretly and Everyone Confronted Her
    1.47%
    1
    Willow and Xander 'Fooling Around' While they Were Involved with Cordy and Oz
    5.88%
    4
    Cordelia and Xander Breaking Up
    2.94%
    2
    Oz Sleeping with Someone Else and Then Leaving Town
    0.00%
    0
    Angel and Buffy Breaking Up and Angel Leaving Town
    10.29%
    7
    Riley Turning to Vampires to Suck His Blood and Then Leaving Town
    0.00%
    0
    Joyce Dying
    0.00%
    0
    Dawn Becoming Buffy's Sister.. 'The Key'
    4.41%
    3
    Tara Dying
    8.82%
    6
    Willow Going Dark, Killing Warren and Almost Destroying the World
    2.94%
    2
    Spike Attempting to Rape Buffy
    11.76%
    8
    Anya Dying
    0.00%
    0
    Everyone Confronting Buffy and Kicking her Out of the House in 'Empty Places'
    30.88%
    21
    Xander Leaving Anya at the Alter
    2.94%
    2
    Willow Getting Together with Kennedy
    4.41%
    3
    Spike and Buffy Not Offically Getting Back Together in Season 7
    2.94%
    2
    Giles Leaving Town
    0.00%
    0
    Other (Explain)
    8.82%
    6
    Joss Whedon: What I basically said was 'Play the romance. Be proud of him. Love him when you say you love him.. - Spike and Buffy in Chosen
    ****
    TV Guide: Spike and Buffy #1 Hottest Scene- March 2008

  • #2
    I think... bringing the Potentials into the picture in Season 7. They got way too much focus, and that in the show's final season and in the aftermath of Season 6, when we should have been reconnecting with our favourites. Did Joss really have to gather so many guest stars in Buffy's house just for the female empowerment spell in Chosen? The ends really do not justify the means in this case.

    I also wasn't big on... the Initiative, the Mayor turning into a Giant Snake, Riley coming back to rub his unrealistic utopia into Buffy's face (albeit in a passive manner), Spike's trigger, Xander proposing to Anya, and the dragging-out of the Angel/Buffy melodrama in Season 3.
    Last edited by Enisy; 21-12-08, 05:00 PM.

    (set made by Francy for me)

    Comment


    • #3
      I agree. The Potentials were the worst thing to hit that season. Annoying canon fodder is the really amounted to be.

      Comment


      • #4
        I really dislike that the writers took all the fun away after Joyce died. It was one dark long road that was too depressing. Part of this is that Buffy is unable to connect with the world. I prefer the combination of dark and light. Episodes like Passion or Innocence were very dark but season 2 wasn't depressing because there was enough fun. I blame Buffy vs Dracula for that because that was the beginning of the end, but this is already going on for 4 seasons. So 'Buffy not enjoying life anymore + Buffy losing her connection with the world' get's my vote. It could be interesting if it wasn't going on and on but stopped after 1 or 2 seasons. Instead we got some fake epiphanies and every season a new version of this Buffy.

        Also the whole 'magic=drugs' metaphor was bad, especially because they changed it back in season 7. I wish that they had the guts to blame Willow for her rampage instead of the evil black magic. And her becoming a white goddess when she was *empowering* was just stupid.

        I'm also no fan of the spell that made every potential a slayer. Not only because it was badly executed (what about giving it some thought before calling it brilliant) and it 'wasn't enough to save the world anyway. But also the methpor irks me; two white women giving the girls extra powers is empowerment but when three black males do it, it's rape. Too sloppy to be a good plotpoint.

        Riley becoming the pathetic guy he was in season 5 just to get him out of the series, and Hank becoming a terrible father aren't favourites of mine either.
        Nina
        and her haircut.
        Last edited by Nina; 21-12-08, 06:52 PM.

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        • #5
          But also the methpor ircks me; two white women giving the girls extra powers is empowerment but when three black males do it, it's rape. Too sloppy to be a good plotpoint.
          Exactly. I amazed that angle didn't cross Joss's mind when he devised the idea.

          Comment


          • #6
            Yep, Dawn. Definitely Dawn. Oh Dawn for sure.

            Although Giles leaving comes in next, because Buffy without Giles just doesn't feel the same to me.

            And I totally agree about the Potentials, they became way too centralized into the show. Silly Season 7.
            You've got to get behind the mule in the morning and plow.

            www.myspace.com/brettknickerbocker

            Comment


            • #7
              Xander/Willow in Season 3

              It just felt totally awkward to me. Xander never looked at Willow like that before, and she was long over him. Just an excuse to create some drama if you ask me. It led to the great Lover's Walk, but in the former episodes it was just handled in a sloppy manner.

              Comment


              • #8
                How about just, The First Evil? A lamer villain ne'er walked the streets of sunnydale...

                Anyway, that gets my vote. A more interesting villain could have saved season 7. And I resent the screen time for the First Evil in Season 7 way more than I resent the Potentials' screentime.

                Originally posted by Nina View Post
                I really dislike that the writers took all the fun away after Joyce died. It was one dark long road that was too depressing. Part of this is that Buffy is unable to connect with the world. I prefer the combination of dark and light. Episodes like Passion or Innocence were very dark but season 2 wasn't depressing because there was enough fun. I blame Buffy vs Dracula for that because that was the beginning of the end, but this is already going on for 4 seasons. So 'Buffy not enjoying life anymore + Buffy losing her connection with the world' get's my vote. It could be interesting if it wasn't going on and on but stopped after 1 or 2 seasons. Instead we got some fake epiphanies and every season a new version of this Buffy.

                Also the whole 'magic=drugs' metaphor was bad, especially because they changed it back in season 7. I wish that they had the guts to blame Willow for her rampage instead of the evil black magic. And her becoming a white goddess when she was *empowering* was just stupid.

                I'm also no fan of the spell that made every potential a slayer. Not only because it was badly executed (what about giving it some thought before calling it brilliant) and it 'wasn't enough to save the world anyway. But also the methpor irks me; two white women giving the girls extra powers is empowerment but when three black males do it, it's rape. Too sloppy to be a good plotpoint.

                Riley becoming the pathetic guy he was in season 5 just to get him out of the series, and Hank becoming a terrible father aren't favourites of mine either.
                The point about the rape metaphor in the slayer empowerment spell is a totally valid one and I really agree about the questionable racial message there. I have always felt that Joss got too wrapped up in his meta message in season 7, and lost track of the real meaning of the show, which was in the real experiences within the buffyverse. But that's a longer argument!

                I see what people mean when they dislike the later seasons for being dark...and I do agree to a certain extent (though I have never understood why season 4 gets included in that, because it is probably the happiest buffy season of all). Certainly I find it harder to rewatch the darker seasons than the lighter ones. But I feel like it was worth it for the new places it took Buffy, especially in season 6. Season 7 was annoying because they kind of disregarded Buffy's growth in season 6 and made her start all over again...lame!

                However I do think that they were full of funny bits and instances of light humor - I just don't think they held as much focus as they did in the earlier seasons maybe? Or things just seemed harder overall? I really believe Buffy's cutoff state in season six, and not just because she was pulled from heaven. Joyce was buffy's connection to the world more than anyone else, even dawn. It's hard for anyone to recover from the loss of a parent at that age, but given the special case of Buffy's life...it's sort of no wonder the funniness and light humor didn't get any traction.
                sigpic

                http://buffysmom.wordpress.com/

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                • #9
                  I was going for season 5, 6, 7 & 8, not for season 4. Because season 4 is indeed one of the two lightest seasons on the show. And I understand the darkness as a consequent of what happened, especially in Buffy's life. But I would've love it when they got over it after two seasons, in stead it goes on and on. Also when Buffy is down it doesn't have to mean that all the characters are down (in season 2 when Angelus was there and Giles lost Jenny, Willow had a good relation with Oz and the same for Xander and Cordelia, in season 6 everything went wrong with everybody).
                  Nina
                  and her haircut.
                  Last edited by Nina; 22-12-08, 11:00 AM.

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                  • #10
                    I always found it interesting that the origins of the slayer were what they were. To realize that the slayer gets her power from a source of darkness. I find it ironic because it shows you that even from the beginning there is no black or white, good or bad.

                    Even the men who wanted to create someone to save them and fight the evil, were bad in the sense that they took this girl and forced this into her.
                    Of course a clear metaphor for rape. I never really took race into concideration because for me it was more about the murky waters of good and evil. People constantly attempt to do good at any cost and in doing that they create acts of baddness and evil.

                    Buffy in season 5.. well at the end of season 4 (Restless) really saw that there was this dark side to a slayer.. and she was different then most slayers, she wasn't taken out early in the game, she went on.. and I think while having people close to her, kept her going, it also hurt the hell out of her because she constantly saw the pain that life caused for them, if she failed, they got hurt, it was MORE responsibility.. like with Dawn, Buffy went catatonic because of that loss. Or in Empty Places , or in the last seasons you really see her need to want to drift away and not be so attached so she can be hurt or she can hurt them or whatever.

                    Buffy being one of the older living slayers while looking like a success is probably something even more painful. Spike talking about a death wish, I think Slayers at one point, just want to stop the fight and end it, to keep living and having it all on their shoulders is too much, Buffy keeps going.. and it has to be hell, there is a darkness there, and because of the longevity of her time as a slayer, she's seen more loss, she's had to make the tough decisions more then most, she's been asked to put the mission before all she loves more, she's seen war more..

                    And she wasn't alone.. all the Scoobies went through that too.



                    For me, the darkness and adult feelings was a natural progression, to keep things in a mode of seasons 1-4, to follow that format any longer would have been just wrong, you can't do that after a while.. Buffy and friends lost their innocence, some part of themselves became darker , they all realized loss on a grander spectrem later on I think. I don't think dark and adult is depressing. I just think it's change. And I welcomed it. I didn't want to see the same show again and again after 4 years. I wanted to see adult character progression and evolution. The good, the bad and the very ugly.


                    I'll admit I got fed up with the duldrums of "Oh life sucks" at times. And the "Speechy-ness" of Season 7. But hell, I got fed up with some things in Season 1-4, too.
                    Every season has it's achilles heel, I've found.
                    1.. I found they had some weaker episodes.

                    2... I knew that it was all leading to an Angelus face off, and sometimes it felt like we were just treading water in the meantime.

                    3... The back and forthness of Bangel.

                    4... I wasn't a huge fan of 'Adam'

                    But I loved every season. They each served their purposes. After re watching ATS, BTVS, 5-7 really doesn't seem that dark at all to me. ATS Seasons 2-4 were long dark arcs. Not much eveness of comedy, just good angst and continuity.

                    I like it on ATS, and I like it on BTVS. Yes, I know BTVS is a different show then ATS. But if you think of about it, Joss said ATS was different in the fact that ATS was about the adult world and the reprecussions of that, I think BTVS hit that note from season 5 and on, so we started seeing signs of that same kind of darkness on the show.

                    I've always enjoyed the exploration of the darker and more complex elements of things. That said even Joss admitted he could have done a better job evening things out here and there in the later seasons, I agree, but I also totally agree with his choice to go to those dark places later on.
                    Dazzling
                    Hellmouth Tourist
                    Last edited by Dazzling; 22-12-08, 01:03 PM.
                    Joss Whedon: What I basically said was 'Play the romance. Be proud of him. Love him when you say you love him.. - Spike and Buffy in Chosen
                    ****
                    TV Guide: Spike and Buffy #1 Hottest Scene- March 2008

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The First Evil. Rubbish! I mean, he was ok in Amends (though didn't like Amends much because it's so sappy)...but only as an essentially comic villain. "Dead by sunrise", mwahahahaha! As Buffy says, "we get it, you're evil, do we have to chat about it all day?" (or words to that effect, can't remmeber the exact quote).

                      When Buffy's mocked a villain like that, reintroducing it as a serious villain is rather hard to swallow. Also, I don't think it's a brilliant concept for a Buffy villain - too abstract - plus I don't think that concept was executed very well. Or maybe it could've been a good idea if exected better? But all in all, boo sucks to the First Evil.


                      -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I didn?t like Willow/Xander in S3. It just felt off, both of them were happy with their respective boyfriends. And what kills me the most is that the writers were making that sound cute and sweet, and it wasn?t.

                        Runner-up:
                        Adam in S4, I really didn? like him and felt he was boring
                        Too many potentials in S7

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
                          The First Evil. Rubbish! I mean, he was ok in Amends (though didn't like Amends much because it's so sappy)...but only as an essentially comic villain. "Dead by sunrise", mwahahahaha! As Buffy says, "we get it, you're evil, do we have to chat about it all day?" (or words to that effect, can't remmeber the exact quote).

                          When Buffy's mocked a villain like that, reintroducing it as a serious villain is rather hard to swallow. Also, I don't think it's a brilliant concept for a Buffy villain - too abstract - plus I don't think that concept was executed very well. Or maybe it could've been a good idea if exected better? But all in all, boo sucks to the First Evil.

                          I like the idea of re introducing The First Evil. I thought it was interesting. Buffy having the dreams of the girls being killed. The slayer line being picked off, the mystery of her not really knowing who's messing with them all (Sleeper, NLM, CWDP) and then Buffy remembering the Harbringers. I thought it was very good.

                          I think the downfall of the First Evil was making him non corporeal. In the end all he could do was talk. I think after Showtime, I was like "Shut the Hell Up".
                          All though of course they stepped it up a few notched with the talks in the last couple of episodes. Buffy seeing herself ect.. I thought that was pretty good.

                          I wished they had brought on someone like Caleb a little earlier, because then we would have had, someone who could mentally and physically really mess you up.
                          Point: Taking out Xander's eye. And Then Caleb's kind of creepy view on Dirtness and Women.

                          I kind of like Caleb in fact. Caleb who hated women, who saw them all as dirty and evil and the ultimate point in the end being about female enpowerment.. that made him a very good villian for that sort of storyline. I would have liked to see that more. More then say, just the Harbringers, and the Supervamps or The Talky First.

                          I think we should have seen and heard the First seldomly, and we should have seen Caleb more of his for lack of a better word "General" who sort of controilled the Turok'Hans, The Seal in the Basement, the Scythe, and the Harbringers... And Every once in a while you would see he was getting his direction from this ultimate evil.

                          Then towards the end, you see more of a confrontation with The First and Buffy.

                          That's How I would have pulled it off.

                          That said, I thought "The First" had probably THE BEST introdruction of a villian ever. Lessons.. the changing from one villian to another, ending with Buffy.

                          Brilliance.
                          Dazzling
                          Hellmouth Tourist
                          Last edited by Dazzling; 22-12-08, 02:01 PM.
                          Joss Whedon: What I basically said was 'Play the romance. Be proud of him. Love him when you say you love him.. - Spike and Buffy in Chosen
                          ****
                          TV Guide: Spike and Buffy #1 Hottest Scene- March 2008

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by buffyholic View Post
                            I didn?t like Willow/Xander in S3. It just felt off, both of them were happy with their respective boyfriends. And what kills me the most is that the writers were making that sound cute and sweet, and it wasn?t.

                            Runner-up:
                            Adam in S4, I really didn? like him and felt he was boring
                            Too many potentials in S7
                            I totally agree about Adam and the Potencials.

                            I think Adam may be my least favorite villian. I don't know why. The Iniciative Thing never clicked, although I think Season 4 had amazing standalone episodes.. great season, but comparing it between Season 3 (Faith, The Mayor) and Season 5 (Dawn, Glory) .. Adam/The Inticiative.. it just didn't hit the mark for me in terms of villian or great threats.



                            The Potencials, I totally agree. They took up way too much time. I think for me, we should have had maybe a couple of episodes dedicated to bringing them on, from then on they should have been background fodder, a mention of training in an episode, a mention of weapons detail for the girls in an episode, a mention of Buffy taking them out on patrol.

                            If they felt it necessary to bring a potencial to the forefront, they should have brought in my mind, ONE, probably someone that Buffy became close to, someone Buffy saw a lot of herself in, and we saw a connection there, and that ONE potencial would represent all of them.. we wouldn't have had them all around all the time, taking away from the regulars, and we sure as hell wouldn't have had mouthy potencials joining in attacking and staging a coup against Buffy and throwing her out of her own house.


                            As for Willow/Xander.. I can't totally hate it. Although I'm a die hard Willow/Oz fan. And the reason I can't hate it is because there was always this part of me that wanted Xander to wake the hell up and see what was in front of him. Also I liked two things from it.
                            One in Becoming when Willow was injured and Xander told Willow he loved her and she called for Oz. I loved that moment. I thought... hmm that was just wow.

                            And then the amazing-ness of Lover's Walk.
                            It may not have been the best plot twist but I think all that un dealt with crap from the past with Willow/Xander just needed to be addressed. It was already resolved whether they knew it or not, but I think Willow and Xander were at a place where they loved the people they were with, and they were over one another, but they were thinking "What if".. And they were tempted to find out and it blew up in there faced. And that is when they realized that they didn't really want eachother, they were with the people they were suppose to be with.. but it was too late. Action and Consequence.
                            Totally agree though, the writers attempt at making the Xander/Willow scenes, cutesy, were ridiculous. We know Willow is a sweety.. most of the time, but what she was doing was wrong, as was Xander. And it never became more clear the pain they caused then when Xander visited Cordy in the hospital and you saw how raw she was at that point. It wasn't cute.
                            Dazzling
                            Hellmouth Tourist
                            Last edited by Dazzling; 22-12-08, 02:22 PM.
                            Joss Whedon: What I basically said was 'Play the romance. Be proud of him. Love him when you say you love him.. - Spike and Buffy in Chosen
                            ****
                            TV Guide: Spike and Buffy #1 Hottest Scene- March 2008

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I went with Buffy being kicked out of her house in Empty Places, I was so angry when I saw that scene for the first time and it still angers me I just don't understand why all of a sudden none of the gang trust her judgement anymore, they know that there is always the danger of people dying and while she is not always right, she has been given the power of the slayer for a reason. I also hated the potentials for getting involved, they don't know her and they had no idea what she had been through and what she had already faced.
                              sigpic

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                              • #16
                                I think Adam may be my least favorite villian. I don't know why. The Iniciative Thing never clicked, although I think Season 4 had amazing standalone episodes.. great season, but comparing it between Season 3 (Faith, The Mayor) and Season 5 (Dawn, Glory) .. Adam/The Inticiative.. it just didn't hit the mark for me in terms of villian or great threats.
                                Well considering Adam was brought forward earlier because of the actress who played Walsh wanting to leave unexpectedly, I don't think they did too badly really.

                                I will always be grateful for the Initiative as apart from help spawn a thousand and one darkfics in fandom circles it also kick started Spikes redemption arc in many ways.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by sueworld View Post
                                  Well considering Adam was brought forward earlier because of the actress who played Walsh wanting to leave unexpectedly, I don't think they did too badly really.

                                  I will always be grateful for the Initiative as apart from help spawn a thousand and one darkfics in fandom circles it also kick started Spikes redemption arc in many ways.

                                  Well it did offer up a way to keep Spike on full time with the 'Chip' idea. As a Spike FF, It was the start of everything. Him being able to stick around, be a regular cast member , ect.. so of course there is always that saving grace. But I can't love a villian on those merits.

                                  To be honest I didn't much like Professor Walsh either, she was a bitch, and not a fun bitch like Lilah.. but just a bitch.. the one thing I liked about her, was Giles's reaction towards her. LOVED that.

                                  I guess the whole secret agency thing just never struck that kind of cord with me. I felt we went from fantasy to GI Joe sometimes. I don't know sometimes it wasn't to my liking, it also could be that sometimes the more serious and climatic moments of the storyline surrounded Riley or Buffy/Riley and again, I wasn't the hugest of fans.

                                  But like I said, Season 4 I think was brilliant in the sense of some amazing standalones. And it had some amazing standout episodes. 'Hush', 'Restless', 'New Year's Girl/Who Are You' ..

                                  I have much love for, 'Harsh Light of Day,' 'Pangs', 'Something Blue' , Fear, Itself' , 'New Man', 'The Yoko Factor', 'Wild At Heart' ..


                                  Always respect the fanfic though, I think fanficers out there go places even the writers never thought of going. Maybe if they did, I would have appreciated the storyline a bit more.
                                  Joss Whedon: What I basically said was 'Play the romance. Be proud of him. Love him when you say you love him.. - Spike and Buffy in Chosen
                                  ****
                                  TV Guide: Spike and Buffy #1 Hottest Scene- March 2008

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I wasn't keen on the whole Initiative idea at the time (the army v the supernatural bit felt too out of place for me too) but as the years passed I began to appreciate it more, and I suppose that yes, it did help that I've read some amazingly dark fics based on the idea, which have enriched it a bit more for me I suppose.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Dazzling View Post
                                      I think the downfall of the First Evil was making him non corporeal.
                                      I think the non-corporeal nature of the FE did create some big problems. Because you have to give a really good reason why it's scary, if all it seems to do (as you say) is talk. If he'd had more interesting sidekicks, who he was influencing and if there'd been a clearer concept of exactly what the FE was (I mean, what IS evil? How does the FE impact on other evil things?). For instance, if the FE was capable of bringing out the worst in people, or somehow "boosting" other evil beings so they became more powerful or whatnot. (That's not a brilliant idea, just a for example).

                                      I would've liked it if the FE had been able to gather various minor villains together and unite them under a big evil banner, making characters who were previously a bit of a joke into something truly scary because they're united. EG Ethan, Drusilla (actually, she's already scary), maybe even Harmony choosing to be truly evil and getting better at it? I think if Jonathan had gone over to the side of evil properly, that could've been very dark and interesting.

                                      So, the First wouldn't have to be around all the time, it's more its influence that's felt. Perhaps in the end, the FE could invest all its power in its army, and then killing its army would kill it. Cos, I could never quite tell why the FE couldn't come back after Chosen ? is it still around, just needs to drum up a new army? All too vague!


                                      I kind of like Caleb in fact.
                                      Caleb was too much of a cliché. I love a good badass preacher character (such as?Preacher! Can't wait for the HBO show), but his sexism just seemed too? simple, maybe? I would've preferred a preacher who was actually a Scooby ally (though seeming evil at first). Perhaps instead of principal wood, it could've been school chaplain wood? Who'd turned to religion after his mum was killed by Spike, so his crusade against vampires is tinged with a religious element? It would've been interesting to have a religious character on board to answer/ask all the questions about vampires and holy water and where God fits in with all the PTBs and whatnont. A conversation between him and Buffy about God would've been ace I think. Though at the same time, I can see why Joss might want to stay away from that sort of topic ? it might stretch the show in the wrong direction, dealing with real life ideological/political issues (rather than emotional/more general philosophical issues) that's never really been the show's remit. Still, fun I think.

                                      I think we should have seen and heard the First seldomly,
                                      Yes ? the less you see of a villain, imo, the scarier they are ? I think Supernatural does that well actually, showing you glimpses of the scary things, and making them come and go quite quickly.

                                      That said, I thought "The First" had probably THE BEST introdruction of a villian ever. Lessons.. the changing from one villian to another, ending with Buffy.

                                      Brilliance.
                                      Oh yes, I liked that effect. I think that only makes it more maddening for me ? when you set something up to be huge like that (bigger than the creation of the universe!) then the payoff had better be damned good. And yet? limp mwah ha haing.


                                      -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
                                        Caleb was too much of a cliché. I love a good badass preacher character (such as?Preacher! Can't wait for the HBO show), but his sexism just seemed too? simple, maybe? I would've preferred a preacher who was actually a Scooby ally (though seeming evil at first). Perhaps instead of principal wood, it could've been school chaplain wood? Who'd turned to religion after his mum was killed by Spike, so his crusade against vampires is tinged with a religious element? It would've been interesting to have a religious character on board to answer/ask all the questions about vampires and holy water and where God fits in with all the PTBs and whatnont. A conversation between him and Buffy about God would've been ace I think. Though at the same time, I can see why Joss might want to stay away from that sort of topic ? it might stretch the show in the wrong direction, dealing with real life ideological/political issues (rather than emotional/more general philosophical issues) that's never really been the show's remit. Still, fun I think.


                                        Any of those ideas would have worked for me. But I love the idea of what the character of Caleb stood for.. the old world notion of women being the bearors of original sin, like Eve who ate the apple in the garden of Eden..
                                        It's The First Evil.. It Goes back to the beginning of time.. and you got this machoistic guy: Much like Warren.. kind of foreshadowing there.
                                        Where he hates women and thinks they all are dirty.

                                        Then you see that really the origin of a Slayer is three men forcing a demon into an innocent girl..
                                        It adds to the good VS evil thing.
                                        Who is evil , who is good?
                                        Who is clean, who is dirty?


                                        And the season is all about the enpowerment of women and then you got three men capturing a girl and forcing this destiny on her, but for good purposes.. and you got this woman hating preacher who uses a good thing.. such as God ect.. and turns it against women..

                                        There is some heavy messages going on there and undertones as well.

                                        I think it would have been ten times more effective if we saw something along the lines of Caleb.. just a villian who hates women, (That's his only motive, the dirtiness of women) and then as I said to see that he is being driven by The First Evil.
                                        And don't show it all the time, use it sparringly, They should have sprung the FE out really big at the end of the season.
                                        Joss Whedon: What I basically said was 'Play the romance. Be proud of him. Love him when you say you love him.. - Spike and Buffy in Chosen
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                                        TV Guide: Spike and Buffy #1 Hottest Scene- March 2008

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