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Joyce talking to Angel good or bad ?

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  • Joyce talking to Angel good or bad ?

    I don't know if this has been brought up before..but I was rewatching season 3 and I got to thinking about why Angel left.

    Obviously I know why he left. But would he have actually left if Jocye wouldn't have came and talked to him about Buffy ?


    Joyce: I don't have to tell you that you and Buffy come from different worlds.

    Angel: No, you don't.

    Joyce: Good. Because when it comes to you, Angel, Buffy's not a Slayer. She's just like any other young woman in love. You're all she can see of tomorrow. But I think we both know there's gonna be some hard choices ahead. If she can't make them, you're going to have to. I know you care about her. I just hope you care enough.

    I have always wondered what would have happened if Buffy would have found out that her mom did what she did. I get why her mom did it, but I really think that it was a super messed up thing to do. Especially since she knew how much they meant to each other. Joyce wanted Buffy to go off to college and start a life for herself away from Sunnydale. She thought that buffy would stay because of him. But she ended up staying anyways. So yeah lol thats my problem.
    Oz: Hey.
    Oz: That girl. Who is she?
    Devon: She's an exchange student. I think she's from South America.
    Oz: No, not her. The Eskimo!

  • #2
    But would he have actually left if Jocye wouldn't have came and talked to him about Buffy ?
    I feel like that whole season forshadowed Angel leaving buffy(the show in general really). Joyce wasnt the first and only to say something to Angel about his relatinship with buffy. Not only that but he was obviously having his doubts anyways. He wasn't coming around, making comments about her needing to have a man who can take her out into the sun.

    I get why her mom did it, but I really think that it was a super messed up thing to do. Especially since she knew how much they meant to each other.

    Secondly, i feel like as harsh as it sounds it was Joyce's motherly duty to have at least have a chitchat with Angel about buffy. Any parent would do it, my mom has, Joyce saw what was happening between the two and felt she needed to intervene. I think that if buffy had found out that Joyce went to Angel she would've been upset with joyce but it wouldnt have been a lasting grudge.

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    • #3
      She wasn't the first one to point it out. The Mayor did in the previous episode, and he made much more of a burning impression than Joyce. Well...it depends on your view really. The Mayor's words would've made Angel think more about their future and Joyce's words would've hit him in a more personal way considering she's Buffy's mother.

      I agree with Theresa, it was necessary of Joyce to do it as her mother. The two would've never been able to have the great relationship they so desperately wanted, and being with Angel brought Buffy to real lows - no wonder Joyce intervened. It was very in-character of her. I actually really like the scene.

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      • #4
        it was necessary of Joyce to do it as her mother. The two would've never been able to have the great relationship they so desperately wanted, and being with Angel brought Buffy to real lows - no wonder Joyce intervened. It was very in-character of her. I actually really like the scene.
        It shows just how much joyce loves buffy, that she would risk buffy hating her to tell angel that she thought he needed to leave buffy. It wouldve been harsh if she had been nasty about it, or made snide comments, or hitting angel below the belt. But i feel like she approached him as an adult and told him her opinion. And that's all you can ask for in a mother... for her to try to do whats right for you even when it's not what you want.

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        • #5
          I've no problem with what she did, but I'm curious why she went to Angel and not to her own daughter. As far as we know she didn't even try to talk about it with Buffy. Buffy was an adult and deserved to be treated like one.

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          • #6
            She knew Buffy wouldn't take it into account the way Angel could. This pretty much sums it up for me...

            JOYCE
            Good. Because when it comes
            to you, Angel - Buffy's not a slayer.
            She's just like any other young
            woman in love. You're all she
            can see of tomorrow. But I think
            we both know there's gonna be
            some hard choices ahead. If she
            can't make them, you're going
            to have to.

            Comment


            • #7
              Still, I think that Joyce could've tried first and if that doesn't work ... go to Angel.

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              • #8
                Joyce was just another person to point out, sorry to say, the obvious. We had the mayor, we had the fact that they were getting way too close again, and then Joyce. Angel knew he was doing the right thing and of course, he had the dream. It was painful but he knew it had to be done. So, Joyce talking with him was just another factor that contributed to his decision. IMO, he did the right thing because they didn?t have a future together but I was torn about it.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by buffyholic View Post
                  Joyce was just another person to point out, sorry to say, the obvious. We had the mayor, we had the fact that they were getting way too close again, and then Joyce.
                  Heck, even Spike could see their relationship was doomed ("Lover's Walk"). I think it's fair to say that Angel would've come to the right conclusion, all Joyce did was nudge him toward it. And rightly so.
                  Cordially,
                  Amuk

                  I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were.
                  Addicted to Buffy

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                  • #10
                    And to add to that, Angel was saying the same thing all the way back in the episode Angel. It wasn't anything new. That Angel can't give Buffy a future was a big theme in Bad Eggs.

                    Spike, the Mayor and Joyce were really just preaching to the choir with Angel, but it was something that Buffy was in denial about, even though she understood the logic. It was up to Angel to do what he had believed all along about their relationship.

                    And yes, I would say that of all the people who said this to Angel, the Mayor made the biggest impression because he had gone through the exact same thing that Angel knows would happen if he stayed until Buffy grew old. Joyce was more personal as far as Buffy, but the Mayor hit a more personal nerve with Angel. That's when Angel's destiny stopped being Buffy and started being his own. That and the end of Amends showing him that something out there had a plan for him.

                    It's interesting, too, that almost every time the topic of what Angel wants (War Zone) or what he considers to be the ideal future that he would even like for others (Bad Eggs, The Prom), the topic of kids always comes up with him. The fact that he ends up with Connor feels very poetic to me. It seems like it was one of the things that most bothered him about being a vampire.
                    NileQT87
                    The Dark Avenger
                    Last edited by NileQT87; 08-12-08, 04:46 PM.

                    "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                    "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nina View Post
                      I've no problem with what she did, but I'm curious why she went to Angel and not to her own daughter. As far as we know she didn't even try to talk about it with Buffy. Buffy was an adult and deserved to be treated like one.
                      We don't know if she tried to talk to Buffy about it off camera or whatever. One would think she would have/should have tried. But whether she did or not I would understand Joyce deciding not to try to do so and going to Angel first. After all, remember what happened between Buffy and her mom after Joyce tried to put her foot down in "Becoming Pt. II" - her daughter actually walked out on her, for several months. I could imagine Joyce trying to broach the subject with Buffy and giving up after being rebuffed.

                      The reason she might see talking to Angel as a more effective course of action could be that she viewed Angel as a fellow adult and that she could appeal to his sense of responsibility.

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                      • #12
                        The Becoming situation was totally different, Joyce actually told Buffy not to come back if Buffy walked out that door. I still think that Joyce should've talked with Buffy about it and not go to Angel behind her back. I understand why she did it, but I think she was wrong doing it. But I guess that we should agree to disagree.

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                        • #13
                          Well it was one of those situations...

                          I won't come out and say that it was the right thing for Joyce to do, just that it was an understandable thing for her to do, given how well she knew her daughter and what had happened in the past.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by watcher1006 View Post
                            We don't know if she tried to talk to Buffy about it off camera or whatever. One would think she would have/should have tried. But whether she did or not I would understand Joyce deciding not to try to do so and going to Angel first. After all, remember what happened between Buffy and her mom after Joyce tried to put her foot down in "Becoming Pt. II" - her daughter actually walked out on her, for several months. I could imagine Joyce trying to broach the subject with Buffy and giving up after being rebuffed.
                            The reason she might see talking to Angel as a more effective course of action could be that she viewed Angel as a fellow adult and that she could appeal to his sense of responsibility.
                            Exactly. Also - I'm not so sure if going and trying to talk reason into 17-years-old hormone bomb (who has history of running away from home) is such a great idea. Joyce could talk to Angel as one grown-up with another. And actually the situation (Angel being a vampire with the Curse) was very serious and something had to be done about it. I can understand very well why going to Buffy was actually a bad idea, there was actually no reason to think that any sense could be talked into Buffy. And rightly so, because she was a teenager head over the heels in love and those can not think straight (and I guess they don't have to! I mean WHEN do you have the right to be so innocently in love if not when you're teenager?). Angel on the other hand actually had ALL the responsibility in this relationship. He was the adult. So it was up to him to realise that this thing had gone way too far, it was up to him to end this relationship and I really do not blame Joyce for being worried for her daughter and trying to talk reasonably with Angel.
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                            banner by litzie avatar by diane

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                            • #15
                              There was a very good Buffy fanfic on FanFiction.net which dealt with this - Buffy finding out what Joyce did. Very well written.

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                              • #16
                                I completely forgot about all the other comments. I guess I was caught in the moment of being upset about his leaving lol when I posted this bulliten I always tear up when he turns around and disappears into the fog
                                Oz: Hey.
                                Oz: That girl. Who is she?
                                Devon: She's an exchange student. I think she's from South America.
                                Oz: No, not her. The Eskimo!

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I seriously doubt Joyce liked doing this, but she did what she felt was necessary, and in a way, although I'm a Buffy/Angel supporter, I think it was the right thing at the time. Buffy is not an adult yet at that time, she has her romantic dreams still, but this is a doomed love... if, hypothetically, Joyce had still been alive after Season 7 and Buffy had taken up her relationship with Angel again, I doubt she had really tried to interfere, though maybe reminded her daughter of what the consequences could be, because at this point Buffy clearly is an adult. But at the end of Season 3 she still very much is a teenager, and Joyce is worried about what could happen if Angelus were let loose on her daughter and her daughter's friends again. In talking to Angel she shows that she wants to protect her daughter by any means, even if it may be hurtful for Buffy.
                                  Sin is what I feast upon
                                  I'm forging my crematorium
                                  Your tomb is waiting here for you
                                  Welcome to my ritual

                                  -Judas Priest, Death

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                                  • #18
                                    Buffy said it herself in "The Prom". She said that it was probably better in the long haul. I mean, what kind of future could they have? None and let?s not forget, that sleeping with Buffy turns Angel evil. I have an idea:they could sleep together, and then Buffy could ask Willow to curse him again. That would be cool, unless they were sleeping alot and that meant a lot of work for Willow. But still, an idea!

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                                    • #19
                                      OMG, talk about safe sex!
                                      Also, poor Willow in that case! "No, Tara, we cannot go out tonight, I have to prepare for the spell, Buffy wants to have sex again!"
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                                      banner by litzie avatar by diane

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                                      • #20
                                        LOL! That'd be a very scheduled sexual relationship.

                                        Hilarious. They should've made an episode using that concept!

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