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  • Who does it better?

    Alright everyone has their favorites. Who is better at being evil ?

    Angelus ? or William The Bloody ? Who do you like better with a soul ? And which of their personas do you enjoy the most ?

    I think that Angel does the whole evil thing best. He's always one step ahead of everyone else. And i love all the names that he calls Spike in season 2 I find him to be more luring and seductive when he's his bad boy self.

    Hmm. I'd have to say that i also like Angel more than Spike with a soul too. He's so well I don't really know. But I love the way that he cares and never gives up on people like Connor and Faith.

    I love Spike with a soul at the end of season 7. I especially love his speech to Buffy in touched. Thats my ultimate favorite moment between them.

    What do you guys think ?
    Last edited by bradyml57; 31-12-08, 08:58 PM.
    Oz: Hey.
    Oz: That girl. Who is she?
    Devon: She's an exchange student. I think she's from South America.
    Oz: No, not her. The Eskimo!

  • #2
    I'm a big Angel fan, so maybe I'm biased but;


    I think that Spike was quite the bad boy in his time, but Angelus was worse. I made a thread in which I stated that Darla was maybe even worse, but if it's between Angelus and Spike, Angelus wins.

    Their soulled version is hard to compare because Spike is only at the start of his journey while Angel is already soulled for more than 100 years. But I prefer Angel, because for me Angel is the most complete character in the verse. Not one other character is so fleshed out while nobody ever knows what he wants to do. Spike is what you see. Spike doesn't hide and he is less interested in his past as a soulless killer, I think that you can say that Spike's psyche is healthier. Also his situation is easier than Angel's situation which helps as well. This all makes me more interested in Angel.
    Last edited by Nina; 06-12-08, 09:10 AM.

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    • #3
      I like Spike better in both cases, but I don't think anyone can argue that Angelus isn't more formidable than soulless Spike, if that's what you're asking.

      On the other hand, we've got those Whedon quotes about how Spike was more evolved as a souled vampire / human being than Angel.

      (set made by Francy for me)

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      • #4
        Objectively, Angel is designed to be the "worse" one morally, since he delights in torturing and destroying his targets, whereas Spike just delights in mayhem. They're just two very different kinds of evil -- hence their (frequent) disagreements when they were travelling companions.
        Cordially,
        Amuk

        I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were.
        Addicted to Buffy

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        • #5
          Angelus is the very definition of evil.

          He loved fear, and torture, and it is not enough to kill someone. He can as we saw in season 4 take joy from hurting people from behind bars. One only has to look at Dru to see what that SOB is capable of.

          Spike was just in it for the mayhem. He was a warrior. And loved action and the thrill of the kill.

          This becomes clear because of the vast difference between Angelus and Angel. While Spike did not change to much.
          Angel carries with him the desire of a serial killer and must fight that every day. And Spike takes his jollies out on demons.

          When it came to evil Angel is an Artist and Spike was a warrior.

          My vote is Spike is the better good guy, and Angelus is the better bad guy.
          Last edited by Bloody Billy; 07-12-08, 08:42 AM.
          ===Quote of the day===
          "To read makes our speaking English good"

          Xander

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          • #6
            who can choose between Angelus and Spike, Angelus was the first of the two, without him u wouldnt have Spike. Angelus made Spike whay he is, the evil.
            Faith was the counter part of Buffy there's no good without an evil twin, that would be Faith.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Nina View Post
              I'm a big Angel fan, so maybe I'm biased but;


              I think that Spike was quite the bad boy in his time, but Angelus was worse. I made a thread in which I stated that Darla was maybe even worse, but if it's between Angelus and Spike, Angelus wins.

              Their soulled version is hard to compare because Spike is only at the start of his journey while Angel is already soulled for more than 100 years. But I prefer Angel, because for me Angel is the most complete character in the verse. Not one other character is so fleshed out while nobody ever knows what he wants to do. Spike is what you see. Spike doesn't hide and he is less interested in his past as a soulless killer, I think that you can say that Spike's psyche is healthier. Also his situation is easier than Angel's situation which helps as well. This all makes me more interested in Angel.
              Originally posted by Bloody Billy View Post
              Angelus is the very definition of evil.

              He loved fear, and torture, and it is not enough to kill someone. He can as we saw in season 4 take joy from hurting people from behind bars. One only has to look at Dru to see what that SOB is capable of.

              Spike was just in it for the mayhem. He was a warrior. And loved action and the thrill of the kill.

              This becomes clear because of the vast difference between Angelus and Angel. While Spike did not change to much.
              Angel carries with him the desire of a serial killer and must fight that every day. And Spike takes his jollies out on demons.

              When it came to evil Angel is an Artist and Spike was a warrior.

              My vote is Spike is the better good guy, and Angelus is the better bad guy.
              I agree with both of you. Angelus is definitely the more psychotic of the two. And I think more evil. I for one, don't think that Angelus would've started helping Buffy if he'd gotten a chip in his head. As Bloody Billy stated, Spike played more on his instincts and passions than Angelus. Which is also why I like Angelus more. He's more original in a way and more interesting. He's more of a psychological evil where Spike is just physical evil.

              With a soul it's hard for me to choose. I like them together

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              • #8
                Angelus Is soooo much better without a soul and being evil then Spike. I think the reason for that is because I don't think Spike really cares about evil he just wants to have dirty fun, and being a souless vampire he finds dirty fun in awful evil things.
                Angelus enjoyed the nature of evil, it's almost like he studied it and wanted to learn new depths he could go. So in a sense Angelus was educated at being evil, Spike was an amuture. Spike just like crazy brawls, fights, downright bawdy randy baddness. Angeluss loved the art of evil. It made him smarter at it and more cruel. It also made him more feared by others.

                As for souled, I enjoyed Spike better. I like that Spike could still find a lightness and humor in life even when he had a soul. He wasn't so serious and completely anchored down by his sins like Angel tends to be. Angel was almost always dour and brooding, I think since Spike kind of made some of his journey before he had a soul, when he got one he could make a smoother transition, not easy.. far from it, but it helped him because he had evolved a bit before the soul.

                But also if you look at episodes like Lies my Parents told me or Hellbound, you kind of see that Spike hides behind the sarcasm and attitude, you can tell that Angel is feeling heartache, he wears that part of him on his sleave, Spike acts like he hasn't a care in the world, and yet under the surface there are those memories of hurting Buffy, hurting his mother, being this mopey poet.. weak and useless.. constantly not wanting to be that again. And if you scratch that surface.. like it was scatched in Damage.. you see that Spike, feels as deeply as Angel, he just sees and handles it differently. And I think it comes down to the fact that I find it more interesting the way Spike handles it. I like that he attempts to hide it, but underneath he hurts, too. And yet, he's Spike... he's rude, sacastic, fun and yet sensitive, loyal, and can see things from a POV that no one else can see it from. And that is him as well, and he carries that on.
                Last edited by Dazzling; 26-12-08, 12:30 AM.
                Joss Whedon: What I basically said was 'Play the romance. Be proud of him. Love him when you say you love him.. - Spike and Buffy in Chosen
                ****
                TV Guide: Spike and Buffy #1 Hottest Scene- March 2008

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                • #9
                  Angelus for sure. Spike was always too nice, even without a soul. Angelus was just so deliciously and delightfully evil.
                  Every Slayer has a death wish. Even you.
                  ?I think it?s the title of the show. Buffy The Vampire Slayer. It?s like a line in the sand. And unless you appreciate irony and are somewhat sophisticated you?re not going to watch that show.?
                  - James Marsters

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                  • #10
                    This is hard because both are pretty good, but Angelus! I mean, he is so damn evil in S2. He belittles Spike, he totally destroys Buffy and everyone around her, and he enjoys doing so. So, Angelus.
                    I like Angel with a soul too, but we can?t compare the two because Spike only has a soul in S7.

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                    • #11
                      Well, jumping on the bandwagon here. Angelus definitely is the more evil. Like he says at the end of "Damage", he sadistically enjoyed his victims' suffering, while Spike was in it for the fun and paid no heed to it, didn't even truly notice it.

                      Nina brings up a really good point in her post about comparing their souled versions: Angel has had his soul for a lot longer, so they are really hard to compare. Moreover, while Angel was alone, Spike had allies for most of the time and did not have to bear the guilt on his own.
                      Sin is what I feast upon
                      I'm forging my crematorium
                      Your tomb is waiting here for you
                      Welcome to my ritual

                      -Judas Priest, Death

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                      • #12
                        I'd have to say Angelus is the more obvious evil one. William the Bloody, on the other hand, seems to only show his evil side when it's needed. When Angel has no soul, everything he says/does is out of pure hatred for the world and when Spike has no soul, he just seems to enjoy watching the mayhem going on around him instead of actually causing it.

                        When they both have a soul, my favorite character is Spike...simply because he's a cute guy No no...on the serious side, it's because I loved watching him and Buffy have that moment in the last episode. That one moment where they held hands made the whole of abysmal season 7 worth watching.
                        Last edited by Faithfan5819; 06-01-09, 12:10 AM. Reason: Major episode mistake =]

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                        • #13
                          Kiss? *blinks* Unless you meant Angel instead of Spike.

                          (set made by Francy for me)

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                          • #14
                            I think it's really hard to compare their souled versions because not only are they both under different circumstances but one's had a soul a lot longer than the other.

                            In regards to Angelus/Spike, well Angelus was the more sadistic one, there's no denying that. As stated in Ats s5 Angelus was the worst on record with Spike following behind him, so according to the texts Angelus was the more evil of the bunch. But that's not to say that Spike wasn't very cruel. Spike states in 'Never Leave Me' that it wasn't any fun of the girl didn't cry "when he..." and we know from 'Lineage' that he went and slaughtered all the children in an orphanage which he needn't have done simply for food, there was quite obviously some sadistic pleasure there. He also happily chuckled along to watching Angelus beat a priest to death with his own arm and had a bid old smirk on his face when he walks in and believes to be watching Angelus rape the bride of the wedding they attacked, so yup, definitely an evil vampire.

                            As for who I like better? That comes down to personal tastes really, I prefer Angel more as a character and his approach to the whole soul dilemma. Spike had an easier ride which is why he was able to grow more rapidly than Angel, Angel didn't get shown Buffy until 90 years after he got his soul back, Spike already knew Buffy and had that help three months after receiving his. She was the catalyst in getting both of their asses, one simply got the help sooner than the other. I also prefer how Angel feels about his past whereas I wasn’t fond of Spike’s attitude towards Dana at all and I really didn’t enjoy how he spoke about Nikki Wood. I much prefer Angel and his conversation with Holtz, I think generally Angel’s probably the nicer guy. In the end their both heroes, both trying to help people they just go about it in a different way.

                            Angel also can't be as blase about his past as Spike, because unlike Spike Angel has the curse he has to deal with. He was punished and made to suffer for all his crimes, Angel can't be perfectly happy without worrying about turning evil again, he has a lot more on his mind than Spike so of course he's going to be more dark and broody, he really has no choice.
                            So;

                            Angelus > Spike
                            Angel > Spike
                            Last edited by vampmogs; 06-01-09, 12:07 AM.

                            ~ Banner by Nina ~

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Enisy View Post
                              Kiss? *blinks* Unless you meant Angel instead of Spike.
                              I was thinking of another episode *slaps head*

                              I meant the moment where they linked hands and they set alight.

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                              • #16
                                Joss Whedon: As a villain [Spike] was... You know, the Master that we started with was a straight-up villain, like, his belief system was just evil. And what was fun about Spike was... I said okay, that's great and Mark Metcalf did a wonderful job, but now we need a villain that we can relate to in the way that we're relating to our other people, so that thematically they can become useful. So to introduce this guy who is clearly "oh, I'm such a badass" and then have him very tenderly in love with another vampire... from the very beginning the idea was, well, he's not just, you know, a cardboard. He's gonna have levels to play. How many I didn't at the time realize, but, in a way, he really didn't change that much. He's a character that I always liked a little bit more than Angel because --
                                Jeffrey Berman: He's got more of an edge.
                                Joss Whedon: He was more evolved, though. He had more of an edge, but at the same time, you know, he chose to have a soul.
                                Jeffrey Berman: Sure.
                                Joss Whedon: He learned from his mistakes and he... Angel was kinda the classic Lestat puffy shirt, you know...
                                Jeffrey Berman: Right.
                                Joss Whedon: And Spike was sort of the new mod rebellion against that, so I like that character. I always thought he was a good guy, even when he was a bad guy.



                                Faithfan, ahhhhh, thought so!

                                (set made by Francy for me)

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                                • #17
                                  I hope Joss doesn't literally mean a good guy because wow, what a slap in the face to characters like Xander or Giles...

                                  He slaughters children, he does horrible things to young women, he laughs at pictures of starving children in Africa, he manipulates the Scoobies against eachother, he kills slayers and he's... a good guy? What does that make Xander and Giles, saints?

                                  Next Joss is gonna say Angelus deserves the Noble Peace Prize

                                  ~ Banner by Nina ~

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                                  • #18
                                    I think he meant it more in the sense of... he had it in him to be a good guy.

                                    (set made by Francy for me)

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                                    • #19
                                      I sure hope so, cause man is that a retarded thing to say. Is that a new interview or an old one I think I saw you reference it in another thread the other day? If it's a new one, mind telling me where the source for it is? I'd love to read it if he talks about other Buffyverse related things as well?

                                      ~ Banner by Nina ~

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                                      • #20
                                        It's a new interview, from 2008, lasts about an hour, and is not available in transcribed form. You'd have to order the DVD from The Write Environment or Amazon or, alternatively, e-mail Jeffrey Berman ([email protected]) and ask to pay via PayPal. And yes, Joss does talk about other Buffyverse-related things; it's an amazing interview all around.

                                        (set made by Francy for me)

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