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  • Heaven... Hell...

    I have a theory... Buffy did'nt had been in heaven.
    I always had a problem with this couse she just said: I was warm ... and I was loved ... and I was finished. and that she knew her friends were ok, but they weren't. They were suffering and will be, in near time, killed by demon bikers. she never told nothing about Joyce was there and if i could use Angel ATF:
    TEAL: Heaven without your loved ones isn't heaven.
    .
    The only bit that confirm Buffy in heaven is from Angel - "Inside Out":
    SKIP
    Well, wait. Nobody comes back from paradise. Okay, a Slayer once, but that...
    .

    However I'm not sure if Skip could be reliabe.

    Anyone wanna discuss?
    Sorry, I don't speak English.

  • #2
    Interesting point.
    But the problem is that we learn very little about this heaven Buffy has been to, so it either is believe her or don't believe her.
    How reliable is the one from ATF you're quoting? Haven't had a chance to read it yet. Does he have any way of knowing?
    And in a way, Buffy does have her loved ones - she is at peace knowing that they are, or at least she feels like this.
    Sin is what I feast upon
    I'm forging my crematorium
    Your tomb is waiting here for you
    Welcome to my ritual

    -Judas Priest, Death

    Comment


    • #3
      Can you help me remembering when that quote is used? In my head it's not more than an opinion and not a fact.


      I do think that Buffy was in heaven, and I think that she was peaceful because sh wanted to die. Cordelia was bored because she was not ready yet, now she is as well.


      edit:
      I found it, I doubt that you can take that as a fact, it's an idea, manipulation or opinion. It is Lorne's idea of heaven nothing more. For Lorne there is no heaven possible without his friends.
      Last edited by Nina; 01-12-08, 05:41 PM.

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      • #4
        That sentence wasn't meant for th real heaven...
        Spoiler:
        It's just that Lorne had created Heaven in Hell... But it couldn't really be heaven if he wasn't with his friends...
        What? You?ve taught a psycho killer demon how to be human by making him watch Sex and the City?

        1.02 Never been kissed OUT NOW/ 1.03 Damned by the bell COMING SOON

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        • #5
          I would assume that heaven is what you make it, it is your own view on what it should be and so from that Buffy felt she was in heaven and so she was. She never mentions about Joyce being there but maybe that is what she means by being loved. Also before the biker gang arrived in Sunnydale, her friends were okay and Giles believed it too because he left them to look after each other. She was just about to come back to life when the biker gang arrived so maybe she didn't see them coming.
          sigpic

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          • #6
            Bloodsucker:
            How reliable is the one from ATF you're quoting? Haven't had a chance to read it yet. Does he have any way of knowing?
            I'm not sure how is reliable (she is a Girl of Lorne), but she is not beein specific of Buffy. I just cited her couse that is my thinking too. And sorry for not had posted the link for KoC's Transcriptions: https://www.buffyforums.net/showthread.php?t=1744
            It is Lorne's idea of heaven nothing more. For Lorne there is no heaven possible without his friends.
            To me that was one of the Lorne's girl idea of Heaven, and really, everyone's probably is the same.

            cliomiao, you're right, but don't you think that in Buffy's real heaven she would like to be with Joyce?

            carousel_girl8:
            I would assume that heaven is what you make it, it is your own view on what it should be and so from that Buffy felt she was in heaven and so she was.
            Not sure if in the Buffy verse we couldn't have some kind of dimension or something where you could be warm and everything withou it be heaven. And I still believe she would like to be with Joyce to that be her paradise.
            She never mentions about Joyce being there but maybe that is what she means by being loved.
            Maybe you're right and I'm just being stubborn
            Also before the biker gang arrived in Sunnydale, her friends were okay and Giles believed it too because he left them to look after each other.
            I have to disagree couse the were in pain, cleary can?t handle the big demons and Giles left couse he haven't no more mission (what was selfish of him not caing about Dawn). Off Course this is just IMO.
            Sorry, I don't speak English.

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            • #7
              Buffy uses the word "heaven" rather more loosely than this discussion presumes:
              SPIKE: Buff? ... Slayer? Are you okay?

              (She isn't, but she composes herself and nods at him. )

              BUFFY: I'm here. I'm good.
              SPIKE: (walks back to her) Buffy, if you're in ... if you're in pain ... or if you need anything... or if I can do anything for you...
              BUFFY: (looks down at her lap) You can't.
              SPIKE: Well, I haven't been to a hell dimension just of late, but I do know a thing or two about torment.

              (He sits beside her.)

              BUFFY: (still looking down) I was happy.

              (Spike looks at her in confusion.)

              BUFFY: Wherever I ... was ... I was happy. At peace.

              (Spike stares, shocked.)

              BUFFY: I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time ... didn't mean anything ... nothing had form ... but I was still me, you know? (glances at him, then away) And I was warm ... and I was loved ... and I was finished. Complete. I don't understand about theology or dimensions, or ... any of it, really ... but I think I was in heaven.

              (Spike continues to stare at her in dismay.)

              BUFFY: And now I'm not. (almost tearful) I was torn out of there. Pulled out ... by my friends. (Spike continues staring, listening) Everything here is ... hard, and bright, and violent. Everything I feel, everything I touch ... this is Hell. Just getting through the next moment, and the one after that ... (softly) knowing what I've lost...

              (She looks up, realizes Spike is still there. She looks uncomfortable, gets up.

              She walks just to the line where the shadows become sunlight, and pauses, but doesn't turn back to face Spike.)

              BUFFY: They can never know. Never.
              Cordially,
              Amuk

              I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were.
              Addicted to Buffy

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              • #8
                More loosely? How so? I didn't quite get that.
                Sin is what I feast upon
                I'm forging my crematorium
                Your tomb is waiting here for you
                Welcome to my ritual

                -Judas Priest, Death

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by carousel_girl8 View Post
                  I would assume that heaven is what you make it, it is your own view on what it should be and so from that Buffy felt she was in heaven and so she was.
                  agreed.
                  Everyone has a different perception of what heaven is like. Buffy felt like she was in heaven because she was finally at peace. My interpretation of this was that she was somewhere where she was safe and didn't have the whole weight of the world on her shoulders.

                  The Buffyverse uses the words 'heaven' and 'hell' loosely. They're always referring about the demons going to hell, but i'm not sure if they tell you what kind of humans/creatures go to heaven.

                  I don't wanna get into this whole Christian thing here [because heaven and hell are mainly Christian based to me], but they believe that people who follow God's footsteps and respect other people etc... will be accepted into heaven.

                  I believe Buffy was in her own theoritical state of heaven. She may have not been in ACTUAL heaven herself, but she was resting peacefully where she was.
                  BUFFY - Please come back. We have a Vampire we need you to kill... His name is Edward Cullen.

                  *wicked_visions*

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                  • #10
                    Exactly. The mythology of the Buffyverse presupposes a myriad of dimensions. We're certainly told of plenty of hell dimensions (and several dimensions that aren't necessarily any more hellish or heavenish than our own - depending on how you feel about shrimp, anyway). Buffy was in a heaven, but not necessarily the Heaven spoken of in Judeo-Christian mythology. A lot of this discussion seems to demand that she have meant the latter.
                    Cordially,
                    Amuk

                    I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were.
                    Addicted to Buffy

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks, you two, for clarifying that. My mind seems to have been a bit fuzzy.


                      Even if it wasn't "heaven" technically where Buffy was, but a place of waiting because her return had been foreseen - to her it would have been heaven all the same because at last she was free of her burden and at peace. The episode title immediately before her death, The Weight of the World, is rather fitting for the way she must feel about it.
                      Sin is what I feast upon
                      I'm forging my crematorium
                      Your tomb is waiting here for you
                      Welcome to my ritual

                      -Judas Priest, Death

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Also Tara mentions this in Tabula Rasa...when she and Willow and Xander and Anya are discussing the reprocussions of their spell.
                        TARA: It's totally not stupid to wonder what it was like for Buffy. But it could have been any one of a zillion heavenly dimensions. All we know is that ... it was a good place and she was happy there.
                        So we're not necessarily talking about a christian interpretation of heaven here.

                        Also I always assumed that Joyce was there with buffy - so much so that when someone above said that she never said Joyce was there, my first reaction was Yes she did! but I do think it was implied, several times, not least of which is during Normal Again when her supposed period of sanity becomes her time in heaven...and Joyce was there.
                        sigpic

                        http://buffysmom.wordpress.com/

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by litzie View Post
                          ...my first reaction was Yes she did! but I do think it was implied, several times, not least of which is during Normal Again when her supposed period of sanity becomes her time in heaven...and Joyce was there.
                          That's the reason I'm still stubborn. I would prefer an textual affirmation in this that just something implied.
                          Sorry, I don't speak English.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jj.bsb View Post
                            That's the reason I'm still stubborn. I would prefer an textual affirmation in this that just something implied.
                            It's not just implied, it has been said on the show many times that Buffy was in a Heaven. Note: I say a Heaven, not the Heaven. When we talk about Heaven and Hell in reference to Buffy we can't think of specific religions and their perceptions of life after death. What is fact is that Buffy had died, her soul moved on and was delivered to a place of peace, warmth and love. That's Heaven - spending eternity in peace.

                            BUFFY: I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time ... didn't mean anything ... nothing had form ... but I was still me, you know? (glances at him, then away) And I was warm ... and I was loved ... and I was finished. Complete. I don't understand about theology or dimensions, or ... any of it, really ... but I think I was in heaven.
                            There's your textual answer. She even sings it in Once More with Feeling. She sings that she was in Heaven and Willow looks on mortified. You won't find a more definitive answer than that.

                            To the original poster: just because Buffy's friends were in danger does not mean they were in mortal danger. They live in Sunnydale. They will always be in danger but their fate, I believe, was not something Buffy could see from Heaven.

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