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  • Werewolves

    Does anyone know if Joss said anything special regarding the werewolves in both BTVS and Angel?

    Doesn't anyone find it disappointing sometimes that werewolves have so few appearances in Jossverse? With the species rival vampires in popularity in the folktales.

    Understandable that, like vampires, Joss molds the design of werewolves close to the werewolves of tales from the traditional stories. And given werewolves' dangerous inner selves only pop out during lunar cycle, it's hard to use them as characters. But then they had a werewolf who becomes a regular character for 2 seasons, Oz, and through him we only started to see more about werewolves as he started departing the show.

    We learned that the animal/demonic side of werewolves still exist along with all the instincts of the beast in human forms. And that full moon is not the absolute factor in werewolves' transformations as Oz managed the suppress it after training in mediation, but negative emotions can trigger the transformation even in daytime. This was confirmed when the doctors in Initiative triggered his transformation with a negative stimulation.

    Then there's nothing more on werewolves until in the final season of Angel when a girl named Nina Ash was turned Angel's team started helping her. We learned there are different breed of werewolves, and Nina's is more wolf-like in wolf-form. And the fact that Nina experiences the urge for taste of raw meat and the desire to kill only within a short time after being turned while Oz never felt anything due to his animal side for 2 years suggests Nina's breed is more primal or more savage than that of Oz's.

    There are still some many things they could do with werewolves' features and potentials that they never explored. Does the super strength of a werewolf, or at least a portion of it still exist in their human forms too?

    Anyone ever wondered how much of a chance does a Slayer stand in beating a werewolf in an empty-handed combat. Since there is never actual one of such fight taking place in the show that makes it hard to speculate. The closest we have is Faith fighting Oz in season 3, and it seemed Oz had the upper hand until Willow led Oz away, giving Faith the time and chance to tranquilize Oz. It would seems a werewolf's strength might be just a little superior to that of a Slayer.

  • #2
    I don't think you can chalk it up to a werewolf being stronger than a slayer but more like, fighting a werewolf is just an awkward thing to fight. I mean think about trying to fight a dog hand to hand. It's not really hand to hand since it's on all fours. You would have to result to kicking and punching down towards the ground which again is just awkward. And werewolves have the ability to maul you to death which a slayer does not. I do think they could have done more with werewolves after Oz left but let's just face it, it would have gotten old. Plus, Buffy wasn't going to result to killing a werewolf when she knows full and well that it's actually a human. It wasn't necessary to bring that up after Oz left. I mean, can you imagine how up in arms people would be if she did start killing werewolves?! There are people out there that think she should think twice before killing a vampire because they might have a soul.
    holypotatoes
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    Last edited by holypotatoes; 01-12-08, 02:07 AM.
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    • #3
      You covered most of the Buffyverse "rules" for Werewolves in your post. As with vampires - every writer/creator has their own rules for how their creature operates.

      There is some suggestion that Oz's form of lycanthropy was inherited. This seems to be different from a werewolf bite or scratch. If you want to "fanwink" (and I hope this will become canon) in Spike vs. Dracula you have mention of Oz's Great Grandfather Nathanial Osborne who was also a werewolf. There is no mention as to how he became one.

      However, Oz supposedly became a werewolf because his cousin Jordy bit him while they were rough-housing (I believe). So, one could say Jordy was a werewolf. Perhaps it was only carried through Jordy's side of the family.

      Although Oz was able to change in stressful situations (fear/pain) before then he only phased during a lunar cycle. Most Werewolf lore says the Full Moon but I believe Joss said 2 days before and the Full Moon. (Or was it the day before, the day of, and then the day after?) I know it was 3 days out of the month.
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      • #4
        It always seemed to me that the werewolf represented the dangerous, animal instinct teenage boys have. Buffys first three seasons were about the horrors of high school (real and imaginary.) Vampires and other baddies were always used as metaphor for real life problems. I always just saw the werewolf as an example of this.
        Every Slayer has a death wish. Even you.
        ?I think it?s the title of the show. Buffy The Vampire Slayer. It?s like a line in the sand. And unless you appreciate irony and are somewhat sophisticated you?re not going to watch that show.?
        - James Marsters

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        • #5
          Originally posted by ThePoet's<3 View Post
          There is some suggestion that Oz's form of lycanthropy was inherited. This seems to be different from a werewolf bite or scratch. If you want to "fanwink" (and I hope this will become canon) in Spike vs. Dracula you have mention of Oz's Great Grandfather Nathanial Osborne who was also a werewolf. There is no mention as to how he became one.

          However, Oz supposedly became a werewolf because his cousin Jordy bit him while they were rough-housing (I believe). So, one could say Jordy was a werewolf. Perhaps it was only carried through Jordy's side of the family.
          Reference Oz's conversation:
          "Is Jordy a werewolf? Uh-huh. And how long has that been going on? Uh-huh. What? No, no reason."

          I'd love to hear the other side of that conversation, although it's funnier if we don't. But from listening in on Oz's side, looks like his attitude toward things is also a family trait. Doesn't sound like his aunt turned very many hairs at the question...

          Originally posted by ThePoet's<3 View Post
          Although Oz was able to change in stressful situations (fear/pain) before then he only phased during a lunar cycle. Most Werewolf lore says the Full Moon but I believe Joss said 2 days before and the Full Moon. (Or was it the day before, the day of, and then the day after?) I know it was 3 days out of the month.
          Night before, night of, and night after. All three days are usually considered "full", and the three-day rule has been used in werewolf fiction before. Werewolves in real-world legends usually were more like those in "The Howling" - they could change any time, day or night, regardless of the moon's phase.
          "Occasionally, I'm callous and strange..." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"

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          • #6
            Oz made a reference to Jordy teething in regard to his being a werewolf.
            Angel liked to sing 'Oh Mandy', using the Angelus method.

            Look at it, play with it, then torture it.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by DarkRobin View Post
              Then there's nothing more on werewolves until in the final season of Angel when a girl named Nina Ash was turned Angel's team started helping her. We learned there are different breed of werewolves, and Nina's is more wolf-like in wolf-form. And the fact that Nina experiences the urge for taste of raw meat and the desire to kill only within a short time after being turned while Oz never felt anything due to his animal side for 2 years suggests Nina's breed is more primal or more savage than that of Oz's.
              Wasn't Nina (and the werewolf Angel killed in the episode) the only werewolf that could walk on 2 legs in America? Walking on two legs is in the most cases a sign of being more involved. But it's interesting that Nina has more extra effects than Oz, she really feels the demon inside (like Angel does) while Oz had no problems until full moon. I've the feeling that Nina is a stronger kind than Oz.



              If you read the Angel comics and you're not afraid to be spoiled;
              Spoiler:
              The new writer is Kelley Armstrong, she loves to write about werewolfs. Nina probably plays a role in the new series and a new character is a werecat.
              Nina
              and her haircut.
              Last edited by Nina; 01-12-08, 11:53 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Nina View Post
                Wasn't Nina (and the werewolf Angel killed in the episode) the only werewolf that could walk on 2 legs in America? Walking on two legs is in the most cases a sign of being more involved. But it's interesting that Nina has more extra effects than Oz, she really feels the demon inside (like Angel does) while Oz had no problems until full moon.[/SPOILER]
                Not exactly. Even before "New Moon Rising", Oz had some wolfish traits between moons. Like in "Lovers Walk", when Spike has Willow and Xander held captive and Oz tracks Willow by scent:

                Oz sniffs the air and stops the van.
                Cordelia: Hello?
                Oz sniffs the air some more.
                Oz: It's Willow. She's nearby.
                Cordelia: What? You can smell her? She doesn't even wear perfume.
                Oz: She's afraid.
                He puts the van in reverse and backs up a bit.
                Cordelia: Oh, my God. Is this some sort of residual werewolf thing?
                This is very disturbing.
                Oz: I really agree.
                "Occasionally, I'm callous and strange..." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"

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                • #9
                  I forgot about that one, good to know that Oz had some extra traits. On the other side, it doesn't change much about my argumant that Nina has stronger traits than Oz. We never saw him look at somebodies neck. Nina wanted wanted to rip her little niece's throat out. And she reacts very extreme when she sees/smells blood.

                  The only time Oz had to struggle with his wolf was in 'Wild at Heart', but that more about letting himself go while it was full moon instead of locking himself up in a cage. Oz tried to stay human when he was transforming (and he succeed), Nina has always the urge to kill and if you see how quick she becomes a wolf in 'Smile Time', it looks like she can't fightthe transformation at all. Like the wolf (is it a demon?) in nina is much stronger than the wolf in Oz.
                  Nina
                  and her haircut.
                  Last edited by Nina; 01-12-08, 01:34 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Whedon clearly did not want the vampires vs. werewolves motif that is rather popular (see Underworld, for example, where they are equal opponents), but focused more on vampires, while werewolves remained a bit in the background, just like other kinds of demons or supernatural/mystical creatures - we don't really learn much about ghosts either, for example.

                    As for a werewolf's strength, I think this is a lot like with vampires. After all, there are stronger and weaker werewolves too. And maybe it depends on the one who has bitten the werewolf in question, how strong he (or she) was.
                    Sin is what I feast upon
                    I'm forging my crematorium
                    Your tomb is waiting here for you
                    Welcome to my ritual

                    -Judas Priest, Death

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                    • #11
                      I'm guessing we mainly didn't see many werewolves because the show is called Buffy the Vampire Slayer and while werewolves are pretty cool, they aren't her main enemy.

                      Like HolyPotatoes said, the writer's can't exactly show Buffy going around fighting and killing werewolves all the time because most of the time, they live as humans.


                      Also, werewolves are much harder to portray onscreen than vampires. With a vampire you just need to have the actor wear some fangs, yellow contacts and those facial-lumps. With a werewolf you need a whole costume and in the end it still looked terribly lame. Unless you have a large budget, trying to show a werewolf will end up looking pretty cheezy, which sadly it did.

                      As for an in-universe explanation, I'd say werewolves are less of a widespread problem than vampires are. Most werewolves that are aware of thier condition would try to seperate themselves from humans during the full moon. In that case, werewolves would become less numberous than vampires who don't really care about spreading thier own demonic disease.

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                      • #12
                        Werewolves in the Buffyverse aren't really anybody's "enemy" at all, since they are pretty clear that they are normal people most of the month, and heavily implied that they are only "monsters" where they are either deeply amoral as people (such as Veruca), or have just surrendered to the difficulty it creates in their lives (the werewolf that bit Nina before Angel killed him).

                        We don't get a lot of vampire vs. werewolf stuff, but there is a shout-out to it in "Phases" when Oz manages to make Angelus retreat.

                        I think the Buffyverse stayed away from doing a lot more with werewolves because they had been so inconsistent on them. The make-up changes, for instance. As well as the rules (reverting to human when killed or unconscious vs. not doing that). They kept dead Veruca in wolf-mode because it was too ghastly, and the hunter in "Phases" killed them for their skins, but in "Unleashed", Nina has to be cooked and eaten alive or else she'd just turn back into a human.

                        In "Angel: After the Fall" (minor spoilers)
                        Spoiler:
                        Hell-A has both a sun and full moon out at all times. The result is that Nina is human, but very wolf-like in how she moves, sharpened nails, her senses, etc.


                        Between that and how we see Oz display wolf-like traits while human, I think the Buffyverse has settled into a mythology where werewolves are sort of always wolf-like and predatory, but it only slips out of their control on the full moon. I really hope that we will see a case of a werewolf, perhaps Oz, who has become so adept and controlling the wolf that they can slip in and out of wolf mode at will, such as is seen in other mythologies where werewolves exist, such as "Underworld" or "Twilight".
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                        • #13
                          I don't think you can chalk it up to a werewolf being stronger than a slayer but more like...
                          I was merely saying a werewolf seemed to have more raw strength than a slayer.

                          Or that the superior ferocity of a werewolf gives a edge against a slayer.

                          I'm guessing we mainly didn't see many werewolves because the show is called Buffy the Vampire Slayer and while werewolves are pretty cool, they aren't her main enemy.
                          Well you said pretty all I covered in the beginning. Given it's obvious Werewolves aren't meant to show up often, they still could have done more on exploring a werewolf's full potential, instead, they used a slight of it as the purpose and reason for Oz's departure.



                          Werewolves in the Buffyverse aren't really anybody's "enemy" at all, since they are pretty clear that they are normal people most of the month, and heavily implied that they are only "monsters" where they are either deeply amoral as people (such as Veruca), or have just surrendered to the difficulty it creates in their lives (the werewolf that bit Nina before Angel killed him).

                          We don't get a lot of vampire vs. werewolf stuff, but there is a shout-out to it in "Phases" when Oz manages to make Angelus retreat.

                          I think the Buffyverse stayed away from doing a lot more with werewolves because they had been so inconsistent on them. The make-up changes, for instance. As well as the rules (reverting to human when killed or unconscious vs. not doing that). They kept dead Veruca in wolf-mode because it was too ghastly, and the hunter in "Phases" killed them for their skins, but in "Unleashed", Nina has to be cooked and eaten alive or else she'd just turn back into a human.

                          Between that and how we see Oz display wolf-like traits while human, I think the Buffyverse has settled into a mythology where werewolves are sort of always wolf-like and predatory, but it only slips out of their control on the full moon. I really hope that we will see a case of a werewolf, perhaps Oz, who has become so adept and controlling the wolf that they can slip in and out of wolf mode at will, such as is seen in other mythologies where werewolves exist, such as "Underworld" or "Twilight".
                          They didn't have to show Buffy fighting a werewolf many times, at least one confrontation would be cool enough.

                          It just felt like a waste with a regular werewolf character for nearly 2 years, they didn't use him as much as they could. It would be interesting if they put Oz through the training to control the beast within rather than just suppressing it. Like how the Lycans in Underworld master their powers and transformation. As mentioned they would show a slightly bit of the full potential of a werewolf. They could have used Oz to show more, or explore further.

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