The remote impossible possibility - Bander

[bishopcruz]

Well, I have been a Bander shipper since I first started watching Buffy all those many years ago. I know we have a decentish number of B/Xers on this board, so I figured, why not start a thread discussing it. So let's get started.

1. Do you believe that Joss had at any point planned to get B/X together?

2. Why do you think the ship never happened?

3. Did Xander ever stop having feelings for Buffy?

4. Did Buffy have feelings for Xander?

5. What are your favorite B/X scenes?

6. What of Season 8?

For me, I felt that B/X was always the show had been inteded to go in, but I dunno if it was fan output or network meddling, but it never did. I know SMG had always felt that B/X were supposed to end up together, and I know that according to her and NB there had been an initial plan to get them hooked up in S7 (Where IMO it really would have worked.).

I'm also of the opinion that Xander was always in love with Buffy, even when he was with Cordy and Anya, they both noticed it, and brought it up throughout the series. I also find it interesting that in Xander's nightmare future the first fight we see is centered around Buffy, who had apparently died.

Buffy's feelings are a little harder to get a feel on, though I would say that the formula of the show was that Buffy really didn't show much interest in the guys until they actually got together usually 1 or so episodes prior. Though I will say, that there have always been signs of Buffy kinda marking her territory when it comes to Xander.

B/X was also interesting in what the writers didn't show. In the PG script they went to great lengths to show that the CPR was very chaste, the original script of the Pack had Xander roughly kissing Buffy, but that scene was cut. It always seemed to me that the idea was that the first actual kiss between B/X would be a pretty big moment.

One of my favorite quotes moments:
XANDER: The problem is not you. Don't do this to yourself, please.
BUFFY: It's just ... I just wanna know that there's gonna be another good one. One that I won't chase away.
XANDER: There will be. Promise. He's out there, he could come along any minute.
BUFFY: Yeah, and the minute after that I can terrify him with my alarming strength and remarkable self-involvement.
XANDER: What? I don't think you're like that.
BUFFY: Maybe I could change. You know, I could, I could work harder. I could spend less time slaying, I could laugh at his jokes, I mean, men like that, right, the, the joke-laughing-at?
XANDER: Or maybe you could just be Buffy, he'll see your amazing heart, and he'll fall in love with you.

For season 8, I'll heep this spoiler tagged:

Spoiler:

I am really feeling the Buffy/Xander chemestry in this opening set of issues, and it seems that they have worked to make Xander a more fan-palateable mate for Buffy. I am also still convinced that Xander is the kisser.

[Jenni Lou]

3. Did Xander ever stop having feelings for Buffy?

Nope. I don't think he ever stopped having feelings for her; he just suppressed them because he felt they could never be reciprocated. IMO. That's the way it always seemed to me.

I know SMG had always felt that B/X were supposed to end up together, and I know that according to her and NB there had been an initial plan to get them hooked up in S7.

Really? I had never heard that. Interesting. Do you have a source for that? Not that I don't believe you or anything.

Spoiler:

I am also still convinced that Xander is the kisser.

Me too!

[ykickamoocow]

Really? I had never heard that. Interesting. Do you have a source for that? Not that I don't believe you or anything.

Its common knowledge. Both Sarah Michelle Gellar and Nicholas Brendon wanted a Buffy/Xander relationship. I heard that Joss went to Sarah late season 5 and asked her who she would like Buffy to end up with and she said Xander.

[ykickamoocow]

1. Do you believe that Joss had at any point planned to get B/X together?

Yes. I believe he originally intended for Bander after Angel left but for some reason he changed his mind.

2. Why do you think the ship never happened?

I think some of the writers were very pro Spuffy and Bander just got pushed aside.

3. Did Xander ever stop having feelings for Buffy?

No. Even in season 7 he was still showing physical attraction to Buffy. In the episode "Him" when buffy says she doesnt want a new cheerleading outfit Xander says something like "Lets not make any rash decisions" which clearly showed he wanted to see buffy in the cheerleading outfit again.

4. Did Buffy have feelings for Xander?

I think she could have.

5. What are your favorite B/X scenes?

There are quite afew but my favourites would have to be the two scenes in the season 5 episode "I was made to love you" where Xander tells Buffy what a great person she is. I even recall the commentary person mentioning Bander breifly during that episode.

6. What of Season 8?

I hope they get together. Unlike Spuffy or Bangle, Bander is a healthy relationship and potentially a long one aswell.

[Jenni Lou]

Its common knowledge. Both Sarah Michelle Gellar and Nicholas Brendon wanted a Buffy/Xander relationship. I heard that Joss went to Sarah late season 5 and asked her who she would like Buffy to end up with and she said Xander.

Okay. Well it's common knowledge I was not aware of. I never read an interview about that or anything. Sorry I didn't know.

[KingofCretins]

1. Do you believe that Joss had at any point planned to get B/X together?

I think Joss has probably toyed with it. It is true that it's what Sarah and Nick wanted for their characters. I heard that they wanted it back in Season 4, as well. Allegedly, Season 7 was being written toward it before a change of direction.

2. Why do you think the ship never happened?

A number of reasons, probably. I think it didn't happen on TV because, as the show went along and Joss had less and less of an on-set, every day role in production, the people in charge were people that actually didn't like the character of Xander very well. I also have some politically incorrect thoughts on why he has had many detractors as a character, and that fan response might have dictated some of this.

3. Did Xander ever stop having feelings for Buffy?

Absolutely not. He's been in love with her since the day they met.

4. Did Buffy have feelings for Xander?

I think that after "Prophecy Girl", Buffy started thinking of Xander much as Xander felt about Willow -- that he was her "in case of emergency" boyfriend. But there are plenty of instances in which it's teased that she has contemplated him along those lines before. The hug in "Phases". Her look in "I Was Made to Love You" when Anya declared that she knows Xander only loves her.

5. What are your favorite B/X scenes?

The "Phases" hug -- see avatar. Xander telling Buffy that the only other person he has feelings for is 'unavailable' in "Bewitched, Bothered & Bewildered". Xander arguing (vicariously, I think) for Buffy and Riley in "Into the Woods". Xander being the one to realize what Buffy went through in "Bargaining". Their beautiful moment in "Seeing Red". Xander and Buffy walking down the hall holding hands in "Chosen".

[quote]6. What of Season 8?

Spoiler:

The groundwork is there already. They are clearly working very closely and share a closeness we haven't seen for a long time. I love Buffy's look over her shoulder to him before going on the rescue mission in Issue #4. Also, she is dreaming of smoochies, so, it could happen. I think that those two make a great match.

[ThePoet's<3]

Well - ask KoC and he knows what my first reaction was... But I don't know... Bander is kinda growing on me. I'm starting to think that maybe it's Xander's turn.

I don't know all the "behind-the-scenes" rumors and such - I don't know about what Joss originally planned with the characters, and no - Jenni Lou - I didn't know Bander was supposed to take place in S7 either. But it makes sense.

I always felt terrible for Xander when Buffy told him she didn't feel "that way" about him in the first Season. I think people identify with Xander in being interested in someone who doesn't reciprocate your feelings.

So, to have all these years go by, all these life experiences, and to have matured in the ways they have it would be a nice story to have Buffy suddenly look at Xander in a different way. He's been a loyal friend if nothing else.

Spoiler:

I think S8 has the "vibes" for a Bander relationship. I guess it's so early in the Season it's hard to "see" it unfold. Maybe I'm trying to hard to see the relationship into the future and it hasn't even got off the goround yet!! (if indeed it does!) I wonder if the relationship is sucessful how that will affect the rest of the Buffy stories or if it goes sour, how that will affect the Scoobs and Slayer Inc.?

With a twist on the immortal words of Gregg Nations from LOST - we will need to "Read (Watch), Wait, and See".

[Jenni Lou]

Spoiler:

I think S8 has the "vibes" for a Bander relationship. I guess it's so early in the Season it's hard to "see" it unfold. Maybe I'm trying to hard to see the relationship into the future and it hasn't even got off the goround yet!! (if indeed it does!) I wonder if the relationship is sucessful how that will affect the rest of the Buffy stories or if it goes sour, how that will affect the Scoobs and Slayer Inc.?

I agree! And I also spoiler-fonted that for you since this isn't the s8 forum.

With a twist on the immortal words of Gregg Nations from LOST - we will need to "Read (Watch), Wait, and See".

Woo-hoo! A Lost fan who quotes Gregg Nations!

[bishopcruz]

Cool to see so many people interested. The poll is definitely at this early point going much better than I thought it would.

Quick question for people, do you think that interest in the B/X ship might have anything to do with when you saw the series. I have noticed that many Spuffy fans came to the show in later seasons, for example. B/X I think was at its strongest in S2 where there was definitely a whole dual triangle of Buffy/Xander/Angel and Xander/Buffy/Cordy.

In later seasons as Xander got shunted to the side, and the ships on the show became more or less permanent, Spuffy from S5 on, Xanya from S4 on, Tillow from S4 on. It seemed that overall the show didn't have the romantic, I dunno, elasticity that the early seasons did.

think that after "Prophecy Girl", Buffy started thinking of Xander much as Xander felt about Willow -- that he was her "in case of emergency" boyfriend. But there are plenty of instances in which it's teased that she has contemplated him along those lines before. The hug in "Phases". Her look in "I Was Made to Love You" when Anya declared that she knows Xander only loves her.

I saw you make that argument on other boards, and in many ways I think it is a true one, so I was hoping you'd make it again here. So thanks. I think that is a very interesting view, and it puts a lot of the Buffy looks over the years into an interesting context.

I guess, playing a bit of a devils advocate here, that might hint though that a Bander ship might be one Buffy might one of convenince on her end. What are everyone's thoughts on that?

A number of reasons, probably. I think it didn't happen on TV because, as the show went along and Joss had less and less of an on-set, every day role in production, the people in charge were people that actually didn't like the character of Xander very well. I also have some politically incorrect thoughts on why he has had many detractors as a character, and that fan response might have dictated some of this.

It's wierd, I know that I get a very anti-Xander feel from Marti and Jane Espinson, but they have also written some of the best Bander episodes. BBB on Marti's side, and I was Made to Love You on Jane's.

I'd love to hear that politically incorrect thought of yours.

The fan response thing has always baffled me. For a VERY long time the Bander ship was reviled to an amazing degree. I mean, some people hated Spuffy, some hated Cangel, some hated Bangel, but for a while, especially on the Bronze boards back in the day it seemed that EVERYONE, save a few devoted followers, hated Xander, and by association, Bander.

Out of order on this one but...

I think Joss has probably toyed with it. It is true that it's what Sarah and Nick wanted for their characters. I heard that they wanted it back in Season 4, as well. Allegedly, Season 7 was being written toward it before a change of direction.

I had always felt that Xander was probably originally planned for getting with Buffy sometime in S2 or S3, especially considering that Angel was never planned as a regular from the get go. I think fan response, and the great chemestry between SMG and DB pushed Angel to heights I don't think that even Joss understood. S2 was so friggen amazing that they took Bangel and ran with it, to great effect if I do say so. I think it was around then that things got kinda murky.

Okay. Well it's common knowledge I was not aware of. I never read an interview about that or anything. Sorry I didn't know.

Don't feel bad, I hadn't known about some of the stuff until very recently. It just seemed odd to me that Joss would lay such obvious framework for Bander early in S7 and just dump it. I was very much into what were you thinking mode. Then again, I should be thankful Xander survived that season considering how VERY close to dying he came.

There are quite afew but my favourites would have to be the two scenes in the season 5 episode "I was made to love you" where Xander tells Buffy what a great person she is. I even recall the commentary person mentioning Bander breifly during that episode.

I'll have to check the commentary. But yeah, love that scene, hence the quote.

I found it interesting that every season has a few choice Bander moments, just enough to keep hope alive.

So, to have all these years go by, all these life experiences, and to have matured in the ways they have it would be a nice story to have Buffy suddenly look at Xander in a different way. He's been a loyal friend if nothing else.

I think it would also be nice to see Buffy in a relationship that doesn't have the huge levels of angst that all of her previous ones have had. Bander gives her the possibility of as normal a life as possible in her situation.

[KingofCretins]

I guess, playing a bit of a devils advocate here, that might hint though that a Bander ship might be one Buffy might one of convenince on her end. What are everyone's thoughts on that?

I think if there was a possible relationship of convenience, she wouldn't be

Spoiler:

dreaming about kissing him, she would kiss him.

Neither of them would be saying it's been a 'slow year'.

It's wierd, I know that I get a very anti-Xander feel from Marti and Jane Espinson, but they have also written some of the best Bander episodes. BBB on Marti's side, and I was Made to Love You on Jane's.

They both had moments of giving him a fair shot in the Buffy context... but they both wrote at least one completely ridiculous just-for-humor out of character moment in which he is grossly irresponsible to the point of the show almost being unwatchable for it. "Beauty and the Beasts" for Marti, "Earshot" for Jane -- Xander blowing off the search for the killer because he sees Jello.

Jane does refer to Buffy/Xander hope in that episode, though. Also mentions that Joss wrote the "Today's when you decide to hug me" line.

I think it would also be nice to see Buffy in a relationship that doesn't have the huge levels of angst that all of her previous ones have had. Bander gives her the possibility of as normal a life as possible in her situation.

Definitely. He's the only man who has learned how to turn to Buffy for the things that Buffy is best at without feeling like less of a man for it.

[SarahRegi]

i personally never liked the idea... more interestingly i never even imagined it happening when i watched show. so i really don't care for it now.

[Jenni Lou]

Quick question for people, do you think that interest in the B/X ship might have anything to do with when you saw the series. I have noticed that many Spuffy fans came to the show in later seasons, for example. B/X I think was at its strongest in S2 where there was definitely a whole dual triangle of Buffy/Xander/Angel and Xander/Buffy/Cordy.

It just seemed odd to me that Joss would lay such obvious framework for Bander early in S7 and just dump it.

1. You might be onto something there. I personally started to watch the show when s6 was airing, although I, more or, less started watching from the beginning. I'm not a hardcore shipper, really, of any one pairing. Some I do like more than others but I am pretty fine with almost anything. That said, I do have preferences. I do like Buffy/Spike, but not in a true love forever kind of way. I just enjoyed the dynamic of their relationship; it was rather entertaining. I'm not a big Buffy/Angel fan because I found the pairing personally boring, with obvious exceptions, of course....Buffy/Xander has always been a fave unconventional 'ship of mine though; I like the sweetness of it. Then again, I also like Xander/Dawn. Before you all go crazy, I only support them in a down the road kind of thing. They're only...what? 5, 6 years apart? That's nothing after you get out of your teenage years.

In any case though, I do like B/X and am actually working on a wallpaper featuring the two now.

2. I was under the impression that Joss didn't have much to do with season seven. I think the inconsistencies between the first and second parts of the season are due to a writer's shift, most notably when Marti returned after maternity leave....or something like that. Someone else more knowledgable about behind the scenes drama can clarify. Also, I think they wrote themselves into a few corners with all the story lines they were juggling as the tried to wrap up the series, that any possibility of B/X had to be scrapped.

[ThePoet's<3]

Quick question for people, do you think that interest in the B/X ship might have anything to do with when you saw the series. I have noticed that many Spuffy fans came to the show in later seasons, for example. B/X I think was at its strongest in S2 where there was definitely a whole dual triangle of Buffy/Xander/Angel and Xander/Buffy/Cordy.

In later seasons as Xander got shunted to the side, and the ships on the show became more or less permanent, Spuffy from S5 on, Xanya from S4 on, Tillow from S4 on. It seemed that overall the show didn't have the romantic, I dunno, elasticity that the early seasons did.

Actually, it was the Ho-hum of S1-3 that didn't quite grab me from the beginning of the show. It was when Spike appeared that I began to be more interested in the show - Season 2 Spike especially. I guess I had grown bored with the "goody-goody" theme and when Spike arrived and began to annoy Buffy and Scoobies it began to be - FUN! (insert evil Spike laugh here!) It's also why I liked Faith more than Buffy.

The Bander concept was less appealing to me because like Buffy - I felt like Xander was her brother. And this was continually re-enforced throughout.

It was actually KoC's fanfic that caused me to look at Bander in a different light (KoC you go post something nice in the Spuffy thread! You owe me!! Double tonight! ). And I'm kinda crushin on the Comic Xander more than the "TV" Xander! (Xan's been working out since moving to the castle... ) I guess you get credit KoC for giving Xan some sex appeal. (But Spike's still sexier.) The confidence of the comic Xander is very appealing also.

But because I like Spike with just about anybody (I'm still not sure about Spander - I would vote Spangel first) I can deal with Bander.

[Jenni Lou]

And I'm kinda crushin on the Comic Xander more than the "TV" Xander!

Me too! I never thought I would go for a guy in an eye patch but Xander is super extra sexy in comic book form!

[Ehlwyen]

After Angel, Xander is the one ship that I love for Buffy. I hung onto watching the show for so long just wishing for them together. I would be absolutely ecstatic to see B/X happen in S8. I don't dare to wish as I did that for 7 seasons already. I would have loved Season 7 so much if they had let B/X get together. It would have been so natural and helped her to rebuild from a lot of the heartbreak and trust issues she had in relationships.

Xander never stopped loving Buffy. Even when he finally stopped attempting to be more than friends, he still loved her more than anything. I can't say that Buffy ever felt anything romantic, but when you're a kid sometimes that epic i wanna die for you romance is all you believe love is. Friendship is an equal foundation for a relationship as horomones (and likely to last longer). They always had a deep open friendship so I believe they could have a solid non complicated relationship if she would ever find him attractive.

Joss had to want to Buffy and Xander together. There are too many points where their relationship could have gone more and then just rudely denied by the writing. But that's how BTVS always was. If you wanted it to happen, it was written in a way to destroy your heart.

But yep, I always loved Buffy and Xander. Heck, I even wished things would have worked out for her and Parker because he looked so much like Xander.

Me too! I never thought I would go for a guy in an eye patch but Xander is super extra sexy in comic book form!

Yep! Comic eyepatches are way sexier than real life eyepatches!

[Francy]

Quick question for people, do you think that interest in the B/X ship might have anything to do with when you saw the series. I have noticed that many Spuffy fans came to the show in later seasons, for example. B/X I think was at its strongest in S2 where there was definitely a whole dual triangle of Buffy/Xander/Angel and Xander/Buffy/Cordy.


.

I have seen this theory often, and while it can be the case for many people, it's not for me, for example. I watched the show from Welcome To The Hellmouth, and yet I'm one of the most devoted Spuffies. I don't think when you came into a show influences you in your ships as much as which characters you like.

That said, normally I would be all for the unrequited lover guy to get the girl of his dreams..I always tend to root for the unrequited ones, that's why I fell for Spike and Spuffy (not only Xander loved Buffy without being requited, also Spike did, and rather hopelessly, at the beginning..given the hate Buffy had for him). However, I don't really care for Bander, probably because I don't care for Xander as romantic interest. I love Xander, don't get me wrong..I'm not one of the Xander haters (I don't get the Xander hate), but the guy just doesn't do anything for me in that sense, so it's hard for me to be really interested in his relationships.

I'm not totally opposed to Bander, even though it wouldn't be my choice... like I always said, better him than Angel for Buffy in the end LOL , but I'm glad it didn't happen in the show. I believe Xander never got totally over Buffy, but at the same time I believe that Buffy had absolutely no romantic interest in him, so far. And as Spuffy, I am grateful that they went with Spuffy (or sort of) in season 7, because I would have died if they had let things end the way they ended in season 6. In this way, we all got something, and now in the comics it will be Bander, probably. So it's time for the Banders and Xander to be happy!

As for what Sarah and Nick wanted, yeah, they wanted Bander, and they are entitled to...but actors don't decide the storylines, they just act. Their opinion should count just as that, personal opinion. Otherwise, Clana would have died seasons ago, in SV, for example! LOL

[Sosa lola]

You know I was against this pairing for so long, but after reading S7 fanfics with this pairing I started to like it more, I enjoy the similartied between Xander and Buffy when it comes to relationship storylines. I even wrote a Xander/Buffy post-Chosen fic.

The most interesting bit is how will Buffy see Xander in different eyes?

[Wolfie Gilmore]

You know who Buffy and Xander remind me of? Lorelai and Luke from the Gilmore Girls. Not necessarily in terms of personality, but in terms of vibe. They're friends first and foremost, and happy to take the mickey out of one another. They're comfortadors for one another

I'm not sure if Buffy has yet had any real romantic feelings for Xander, but I wouldn't rule it out. They're definitely

Spoiler:

making Xander hotter in season 8, and perhaps that's to build up to making him a love interest for Buffy? Not sure if he's the kisser, but wouldn't rule out some Bander stuff further down the line.

[redrevo]

I'm pretty pro Bander in the long run, especially since it doesn't seem as though Riley is coming back . (I voted "Yes, definitely")

If I watch s1-2 again I might be able to get the B/X vibe of these seasons, because at this point I don't really remember it. Maybe it's because I watched these a while ago (a year), or I thought these were badly written seasons (except for Angelus). I think B/X in Season 8 would be a good idea, either that or Buffy single. There haven't been many relationships on Buffy that started out as friendships, which are definitely more stable than the dramatized angst of classic romance.

One thing I like about Xander, though, was that he cared about Buffy enough to make her happy, even if it wasn't with him. He didn't turn aggressive around her after she rejected him, and he didn't let that rejection ruin their friendship. This is one thing that could be the pivotal aspect of their relationship. I would really enjoy it, and it would probably last, if it didn't destroy their friendship and how they worked well together. If it did, I would probably dislike it, and it wouldn't last too long.

I agree with nearly everyone else here that the exchange in IWMTLY was one of the best moments for Buffy/Xander, and Into the Woods was also pretty good for B/X as well as B/R. I have no idea about Joss' or the actors' intentions with regard to relationships, but I think I can say Xander never stopped having some sort of feelings for Buffy, though he did love Anya, and Buffy never had much more than friendship for Xander.

[Cori]

Well I guess I'm pretty much in the minority then because I strongly dislike the idea of Bander (and no not only because I'm a Spuffy shipper). To me the idea of Bander feels like incest since I have always regarded Xander as a big brother to Buffy so for them to get romantically involved is just wrong IMO.

I believe Xander never got totally over Buffy, but at the same time I believe that Buffy had absolutely no romantic interest in him, so far. And as Spuffy, I am grateful that they went with Spuffy (or sort of) in season 7, because I would have died if they had let things end the way they ended in season 6.

Exactly! I couldn't agree more! Xander may still care for Buffy but she has never shown the slightest sign that she is interested in him as a lover and partner. I deeply believe that Buffy was never physically attracted to Xander so the question of romance never even came up for her. I have a straight male friend about whom I feel the same way. We know each other so well and have done for such a long time that I just don't think of him in the way of a man to whom I could be attracted. So sorry Bander fans, but I see absolutely no romantic chemistry between Buffy and Xander. They are great friends and they should stay that way IMO. There is a reason that I'm not reading the season 8 comics!