That Betrayer Hates Women Xander!

[Sosa lola]

This was inspired from another board thread called Xander the betrayer and while he had his not-so-good moments, I won't say I don't want him as a friend, certainly Buffy and Willow can't live without him and that's of course because of a bigger reason than "they had to like him."

You don't want him as a friend? Fine.

Me? Well...

A guy who just learned that vampires existed yet risked his life to save me (The Harvest = Jesse), a guy right after possession wore off him and saw me in danger didn't even wait to ask questions and jumped to rescue me (The Pack = Willow), a guy who went to his romance rival forcing logic into him with a cross to save me after I rejected him (Prophecy Girl = Buffy), a guy who threw himself at his mummy crush sacrificing his life to save me (Inca Mummy Girl = Willow), a guy who jumped into fire to get me out even though I always mock his social life and fashion sense (Some Assembly Required = Cordelia), a guy who stood up to Angelus to protect me while I was sick in the hospital (Killed by death = Buffy), a guy who told me that I was his hero when I felt that everyone was abandoning me (The Freshmen = Buffy), .... etc

Long list, you may go here and read about this guy I was as a friend:

http://www.boilsandblindingtorment.com/xandergreatness.htm

Sure, he and Buffy may have had a few spats, he may have been a jerk from time to time. So what? All characters were jerks and crazy. Buffy tried to kill her friends in Normal Again, Willow tried to end the world in Grave, Giles went behind Buffy's back to kill Spike, Spike tried to kill and rape Buffy, Anya tried to get Xander's friends to wish him dead... all of them did horrible things.

I don't get why only Xander gets blamed for the Empty Places mess when he should be the least person to get blamed. Honestly, he lost a part of his body. In Dirty Girls Xander gave a rousing speech to get the potentials to trust Buffy. But when the eye was lost and Buffy wasn't showing any concern, no, also Giles telling them Buffy doesn't trust them, Xander couldn't bring himself to protect Buffy anymore. He's too hurt physically and emotionally. Seriously, it wasn't about trusting Buffy as much as not trusting her plan. And everbody thought the plan sucked, not only Xander.

As for Buffy's vampire boyfriends (only boyfriends of Buffy Xander didn't like post-S2):

Xander to Angel:

- Going to Angel's apartment to get Angel to help him save Buffy and encouraging Angel to *actually* move his ass to save Buffy. The point is seeking the vamp he dislike's help to save the girl he's in love with.

- Returning Angel's smile in Prophecy Girl.

- Letting Angel use him as bait with Spike in School Hard. Not to mention, not dwelling on Angel's "if he bit you we'll know he bought it."

- Arguing against Kendra's decision to kill Angel. "Angel is our friend, except I don't like him."

- Helping Buffy to save Angel in Amends.

- Asking Buffy and Angel if he could help solving their argument in The Zeppo.

- When Oz and Willow found the cure to save Angel in Graduation Part 1 but were too shocked to reveal what it was, Xander urged them, "Come on guys, the suspense is killing Angel."

- Helping Angel with the missions they have together even with bickering there.


Xander to Spike:

- Taking Spike in during S4 instead of killing him or throwing him out while he was helpless.

- Xander gives Spike an apologetic shrug after beating him in Hush.

- Almost putting himself in danger of being hit by falling rocks, Xander jumps to pull Spike from under that piece of beam, saving his life in Doomed.

- When Spike lies about being Xander's friend, Xander lets him with an amused look.

- In The Yoko Factor, when Spike planned to 'pretend to go back under disguise into the Initiative', Xander delivered him the clothes appropriate with the 'job'. Xander is so naive sometimes.

- In Primeval when Spike rescued the Scoobies, he asked to be forgiven for his betrayal, then we see Giles and Willow looking at Xander as if asking for permission. Xander just shakes his head letting Spike be, instead of grabbing him and staking him.

- He bonds with Spike in Triangle.

- Being understanding about Spike's state in Intervention, and actually giving excuses to Buffy not to kill him.

- Lighting Spike's cigarette in Spiral and asking about Spike's wounds.

- In Normal Again, telling Buffy that he feels sorry for Spike and understands what he's going through because Xander also had had an unrequited love for Buffy back in high school.

- Saying "thank you" to Spike when he saved him in Normal Again.

- Taking Spike back in Him.

- Working together with Spike in Him.

- When Anya asked Xander to back her up in her 'we must kill Spike' argument, Xander chose to ignore her in Never Leave Me.

- Instead of blaming Spike, like Willow, Xander suggested that it wasn't Spike's fault that he's killing, it was probably because The First had triggered him.

- In Get It Done, Xander was the only one who considered that Spike can bring the demon, when everybody even Buffy had underestimated Spike.

- In Lies My Parents Told Me, Xander gave Spike a pat on the shoulder for support.



I think by S7, Xander was one of the most mature characters in the show, I'd argue even more mature than Giles. And Buffy only trusted him out of the core four in the end, because he's her strength and she trusts him with her life and Dawn's. That's probably why Xander was the only Scooby by Buffy's side in Scotland in S8 comics.

[bishopcruz]

Empty Places was just an awful episode overall, and the ending made no sense. I think for the first time in a Buffyverse argument, NO ONE was right. So, I don't get the Xander hate in particular because EVERYONE was a bloody moron in that ep.

I think I said this in another thread, but Xander was always the guy who brought up uncomfortable truths. When he did this though, he wasn't funny about it like Spike, Cordy, or Anya, he tensded to be a bit preachy because his friends are the most important thing in the world to him. But at the end of the day, he would follow Buffy and Willow into hell, and die for them if need be.

Also, for the most part he is supportive of the decisions the gang makes, even if he often doesn't agree. He will be blunt with his disageement, but he will always be there for them no matter what. He is a great guy.

[KingofCretins]

Picking up from a question on a different thread...

I'd love to hear that politically incorrect thought of yours.

Basically, I think Xander being a non-vampire, heterosexual male with no superpowers or much deep-seated pathos makes him a sort of cumulative object of disdain for much of the core Buffy audience. It seems like people sort of pile on him all the things that they went to Buffy to find relief from -- patriarchy, chauvinism, condescension to women -- all things that basically are not part of who he is. He is treated as symbolic of all of them.

I think what I said plays out in both "Empty Places" and "Dead Man's Party" -- Xander seems to be the guy who is at fault for Buffy's problems in those episodes, despite the fact that he didn't initiate the conflict in either instance.

[Ameer]

One thing I have never been able to understand is why Xander is hated so much because of what he said in Empty Places. In my opinion, if there was anyone there who had the right to go against Buffy's decisions, it was him. I mean, c'mon! He lost his eye! Out of everyone there, why in the world would anyone want to blame him more than the others?

[Nostalgia]

Although Xander had just lost an eye..I always found it completely strange the writers would have him state one of the most beautiful speeches in Buffy ever, to the point of bringing Buffy to tears the direct episode before he betrays her.

[Sosa lola]

Although Xander had just lost an eye..I always found it completely strange the writers would have him state one of the most beautiful speeches in Buffy ever, to the point of bringing Buffy to tears the direct episode before he betrays her.

I think it's because so much has happened between his speech about trusting Buffy and the last scene in Empty Places.

Some fans say, "So he got a booboo, big deal, he had signed up seven years ago to fight with Buffy, he should know there'll be consequences." He knows. Why else was he understanding in the hospital, but losing a part of your body isn't something you can pfft away.

The First and Caleb knew about Buffy's heart for sure. Xander is Buffy's loyal friend, the one who always stood by her side. In Dirty Girls Xander gave a rousing speech to get the potentials to trust Buffy. But when the eye was lost and Buffy wasn't showing any concern, no, also Giles telling them Buffy doesn't trust them, Xander couldn't bring himself to protect Buffy anymore. He's too hurt physically and emotionally. That shows Xander's importance, Xander is the one who backed Buffy in Dirty Girls when the potentials were complaining about her plan, Xander's blind loyalty led to his permanent injury. Now when Xander wasn't there to help Buffy the house fell down. Xander is the character that keeps the house solid, when Xander got hurt, the house fell down and Buffy got kicked out.

[Nostalgia]

I think it's because so much has happened between his speech about trusting Buffy and the last scene in Empty Places.

Some fans say, "So he got a booboo, big deal, he had signed up seven years ago to fight with Buffy, he should know there'll be consequences." He knows. Why else was he understanding in the hospital, but losing a part of your body isn't something you can pfft away.

The First and Caleb knew about Buffy's heart for sure. Xander is Buffy's loyal friend, the one who always stood by her side. In Dirty Girls Xander gave a rousing speech to get the potentials to trust Buffy. But when the eye was lost and Buffy wasn't showing any concern, no, also Giles telling them Buffy doesn't trust them, Xander couldn't bring himself to protect Buffy anymore. He's too hurt physically and emotionally. That shows Xander's importance, Xander is the one who backed Buffy in Dirty Girls when the potentials were complaining about her plan, Xander's blind loyalty led to his permanent injury. Now when Xander wasn't there to help Buffy the house fell down. Xander is the character that keeps the house solid, when Xander got hurt, the house fell down and Buffy got kicked out.

I hope you're stressing "Showing" right? Because we all saw the scene earlier in the school that day. Crying at the pic of the three hanging out together 6 years ago. And to be honest, as much as I love Xander, Buffy really didn't have time to show concern. She did in her heart.. and that was what mattered. As much as she wanted to stay with Xander, Buffy had to focus on the mission. This is what Giles tells her, yet betrays her as well.

[Sosa lola]

I'm stressing on the word "showing" so don't worry. Hey, you'd be blind if you can't see that Buffy cared about Xander a lot, feeling guilty over what happened to him was the reason she couldn't stay or talk about him with Dawn. She touched his face looking at the picture of him, Willow and Buffy. She threatened Caleb if he came near Xander again.

Sadly though, Xander didn't see that. He was understanding in the hospital if you recall the scene. Willow was disappointed that Buffy would leave, Xander said it was okay, that Buffy had important things to worry about and he gave Buffy a reassuring smile. I think what really hurt him was Buffy's comment about it not being a democracy and of course, Giles' "She said she didn't trust us anymore." And how she repeatedly talked about being the one who saved them all these times, in which he added, but not without a price.

[vampmogs]

I think Xander's attitude had more to do about Giles' "Didn't you say today that you can't trust us! Maybe there is something there that needs to be addressed!" than the fact he lost his eye. Buffy then brings up Spike which has to burn Xander considering everything good Xander has done for Buffy in comparison to everything bad Spike has done to her. This is one of many reasons I could never see Empty Places as anything but a personal attack about Buffy and far from the Scoobies trying to make a logical decision about who would be better to lead.

I don't believe Buffy ever actually meant what she said to Giles. Buffy is clearly upset about what happened to Xander but at the end of Dirty Girls and Kennedy's comment in Empty Places it is perfectly understandable that Buffy felt very much un-loved in the household. Accompany this with the fact Giles had went behind Buffy's back to have Spike killed and I think her lack of trust was more of a sudden outburst than anything she really believed in or felt. Buffy was clearly stunned by the Scoobies mounting up against her at the end of Empty Places and I believe if in heart she didn't feel she could trust them she would have been nowhere near as shocked when they kicked her out of the leadership position.

As for why Xander gets a lot of hate, a part of me will always believe it is because he doesn't like Angel or Spike. Xander says a lot of bad stuff about both of them and lets face it they are two majorly popular characters. I can't help but think that Xander gets some resentment for this even when IMO he is most of the time 100% right.. about Spike at least.

[bishopcruz]

Well, for the most part he was right about Angel in S2 and 3 as well. In revelations he had good reason to be pissed, and in Passion and Becoming he made a lot of valid points. Often times I think his responses in these scenarios were the most 'human' in that when separated from the whole twu wuv aspects I think how he felt is how most people would actually feel in one of those situations.

Angelus was an evil, evil SOB who deserved to die. He killed Jenny, Theresa, and a bunch of other people.

But, like Buffy I think most people wanted Angel to get his soul back and for everything to return to how it was. The writers however knew that there were good arguments against reensouling Angel, and they used Xander to articulate them. But those arguments were unpopular, so he gets a lot of flak for them.

There were good reasons to want to give Angel back his soul, no doubt. But SOMEONE had to give the reasons not to. Xander, as that mouthpiece, gets the hate.

[vampmogs]

Well, for the most part he was right about Angel in S2 and 3 as well. In revelations he had good reason to be pissed, and in Passion and Becoming he made a lot of valid points. Often times I think his responses in these scenarios were the most 'human' in that when separated from the whole twu wuv aspects I think how he felt is how most people would actually feel in one of those situations.

He made valid points about Angelus without a doubt however he also made a lot of bad calls about Angel based on who and what he was which could be very unfair. His immediate reaction was to have Buffy kill Angel in s1's Angel based on the fact he was a vampire, even when Buffy points out he has been nothing but helpful and kind to her. The fact he didn't kill her in her sleep should have at least indicated to Xander he isn't that bad of a guy but being a vampire and a possible love interest for Buffy, Xander's resolution is to stake first, ask questions later.

The same applies to Xander's lack of sympathy in Innocence when Angel is missing and Buffy is worried sick. Xander yells out "Say hi for me" when Buffy is terribly worried on the phone to Willow which is far from appropriate and insensitive given the circumstances.

I don't agree with Xander's decisions in Revelations either. Xander basically goaded Faith into going after Angel to kill him and seems joyful in asking, "can I come?" This is attempted murder on someone with a soul and like everyone else, Xander knew the circumstances of the curse. He knew this wasn't Angelus but Angel and therefore he was willingly about to take part in killing Angel because of something he had done when having no control over his actions. Xander basically wanted to kill Angel so that there was no way Buffy could ever give him 'a happy" as Xander himself puts it. This is basically saying we have the right to kill aid sufferers because they may accidentally infect and kill someone else, even when they have no control over this. This isn't the case and in no way should be the case, so why should it be for Angel who can't help the predicaments of the curse but does his best to make sure he won't hurt anyone?

Angelus was an evil, evil SOB who deserved to die. He killed Jenny, Theresa, and a bunch of other people.

Angelus deserved to die for his crimes, Angel didn't. Xander states in Passions he deserves a little something for not saying he told them all so long before then. He said he wanted Angel dead long before the rest of the group jumped on the bandwagon. This is the problem, Xander could never foresee the loop hole in the curse. All Xander saw was a vampire with a soul who loved Buffy and helped them and was essentially good- and yet he openly admits in Passions he wanted Angel dead at this time. This isn't right, Angel didn't deserve to die and it opens up a lot of questions about Xander's character.

But, like Buffy I think most people wanted Angel to get his soul back and for everything to return to how it was. The writers however knew that there were good arguments against reensouling Angel, and they used Xander to articulate them. But those arguments were unpopular, so he gets a lot of flak for them.

I don't completely agree with Xander here. Bringing Angel back is punishment enough for Angelus and why shouldn't Buffy and Willow at least give it a shot? It wasn't Angel's fault he lost his soul so why not give Angel a chance? At least a backup plan it was feasible but Xander didn't even want that.

There were good reasons to want to give Angel back his soul, no doubt. But SOMEONE had to give the reasons not to. Xander, as that mouthpiece, gets the hate.

Well yes the writers had to get someone to state this but we have to accept this at face value and put the blame on Xander rather than the writers. I'm not saying everything Xander said was wrong, I agree with a lot of it. However, he had questionable morals for sure and I think they should be acknowledged and explored.

Being a vampire shouldn't make Angel's life any less worthy if he has a soul. Xander and Angel both have souls, both try and help the innocent and Xander shouldn't believe it is ok to kill Angel based on the fact he is a vampire when he is essentially good. Angelus, fine. But Angel is a different kettle of fish. It is basically viewing Angel as unworthy based on what he is, it is extremely prejudice.

I'm all for Xander being nasty about Angelus, being nasty towards Spike until getting his soul and any other evil vampire. However, if both Spike and Angel are doing good with their souls and are essentially good Xander has no right to think he can kill them based on what they are. Especially when he was willing to protect Anya, whom had just killed 12 innocent people because she mattered to him.

[Anon]

I'm all for Xander being nasty about Angelus, being nasty towards Spike until getting his soul and any other evil vampire. However, if both Spike and Angel are doing good with their souls and are essentially good Xander has no right to think he can kill them based on what they are. Especially when he was willing to protect Anya, whom had just killed 12 innocent people because she mattered to him.

Xander, for all his good points can be incredibly selfish and hypocritical. He's fine under normal circumstances but the moment he experiences personal conflict he drops everything and simply does what he feels like. Sure, sometimes he makes good points and speaks some uncomfortable truths. Other times, particuarly in Dead Man's Party, he has a point but is not in a position where he should be making it and in others he is simply being unreasonable.

[vampmogs]

Xander, for all his good points can be incredibly selfish and hypocritical. He's fine under normal circumstances but the moment he experiences personal conflict he drops everything and simply does what he feels like. Sure, sometimes he makes good points and speaks some uncomfortable truths. Other times, particuarly in Dead Man's Party, he has a point but is not in a position where he should be making it and in others he is simply being unreasonable.

I think in Dead Man's Party Xander had one good valid point, that Buffy abandoned her duties which he is correct. However, I think if anyone was to be blamed it should have been Giles, the one who was second to Buffy in the duty department and yet did nothing but offer concern for the high schoolers who patrolled and slayed every night. Rather than having a shouting match at Buffy who at least had an understandable and sympathetic reason for running away, why did no one see it fit to question Giles?

I also think Xander was incredibly nasty towards Buffy given the circumstances, his lack of sympathy when he states "I'm sorry your honey was a demon but most people don't jump the grey hound over boy troubles" was quite shocking and I saw a different side of Xander I did not like. Yes most people don't skip town over boy troubles Xander, but most people didn't have to kill the love of their life either. Wether Xander hated Angel or not, being Buffy's friend should at least have caused him to be more sympathetic towards her. In some ways it is fitting he has to go through the same thing in "Selfless" just so he realises how ignorant he was being about Buffy's situation.