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  • Why So Much Hate?

    For Season 7, I mean. I'm currently rewatching the Season, and I'm liking it more than I have since my initial, all-at-once run through a few years back. I'll concede that there are flaws, and that there are quite a few better seasons, but I can't understand the hate that so many fans of the series seem to have.

    Sure, the Turok-Han thing in Chosen, and the possible stupidity of the Scoobies' decision in Empty Places were weaknesses, and perhaps Willow was pushed to the side (I don't really see that one all that much, though; she even has two or three "Willow-centric" episodes...), but are these inconsistencies and flaws really enough to fault an entire season? I'm not trying to defend any of these (and probably others, I'd love to hear 'em) issues, mind, i just don't personally see them as enough to dislike the season.

    Anyway, I'd love to hear from both sides of the argument (dispute? conflict? Eh, I don't know the one right word for this instance, heh.) Reasons why you don't like the season, and discussion would be great.

    Oh, and one more thing: omitting anything from Season 8 (or at the very least spoiler-ing it) would be great, as I'm a bit behind at the moment.
    "There ain't no sin and there ain't no virtue. There's just stuff people do. It's all part of the same thing. And some of the things folks do is nice, and some ain't nice, but that's just as far as any man got a right to say." -- Jim Casy

  • #2
    Season seven is just a mess for me really. It's still Buffy so I can still find things enjoyable from it, but in comparison to other seasons I think it pales and perhaps why I'm so angry about it is that it was supposed to be the finale season and it didn't deliver. I'll break it down roughly as to what my main problems are;

    Inconsistencies:

    As you say, this is a lot of people's problems with the season. I think there are far too many. Just to name a few;

    1) What were the First's plans for Spike? It was never even stated. We had so many bloody episodes focused on it "Sleeper" "Never Leave Me" "Bring on the Night" "Showtime" "Lies My Parents Told Me" and so much talk about it, but we never even found out what the plans for Spike actually were? Not once. The First apparently had plans for him, yet it's foolish enough to draw attention to the fact it's using Spike by having him kill and sire a bunch of people? It was just silly.

    2) Was that Joyce, what did Joyce mean? It was never followed up on. I believe Joss said it wasn't her but that's not good enough. Fans shouldn't have to rely on external sources to understand what's going on in the show, it should be made clear and addressed within the context of the series. And it never was, and the whole plot point behind it was never addressed either.

    3) "My death would make you the next slayer." Not only is it a silly line seeing as how we didn't get one after Buffy died in 'The Gift' but it makes you wonder if the same people were even writing these episodes or had even watched the series.

    4) The Beljoxas eye telling Giles and Anya Buffy's death screwed up the slayer line. This was never brought up again, not once. It was never explained, never used as a plot point for Buffy to give her some internal struggle, just nothing. Why even bring something up if you're just going to drop it?

    5) The Turok Han being incredibly hard to kill in 'Bring on the Night' and 'Showtime' and easy to kill, even for humans in 'Chosen.'

    6) Spike being drowned under what by the Uber Vamp? Ah he doesn't breath...

    The First:

    Just a lame villain. It couldn't touch or effect anything and the only thing it could do was try and twist and manipulate but it failed terribly at that. Over the years there's many things fans have thought up that could have been used for the First. We could have had it appear as Spike while Buffy as taking a bath, we could have had it appear as Jenny to Giles to make him fear Spike, we could have had it been used as Hank to really dig in at Buffy ect. But instead it was used terribly and to great lame effect. Buffy was right to make fun of it in 'Chosen.' It did nothing.

    Lack of Scoobies:

    It was the finale season, we had Giles back and yet he might as well have not even been there. The show started with Buffy/Xander/Willow/Giles and especially with the three kids, they've been there from start to finish. People like Xander deserved a storyline and yet they got absolutely nothing. It was atrocious how little part he got in 'Chosen' I believe even SMG voiced her opinion on that in an interview, claiming she believed that the finale should have been two hours long and that Xander should have got more of a part. And Giles did nothing either.

    Too much Spike:

    Accuse me of Spike hate all you want, but I'll stick by it. When people like Xander and Giles got nothing I personally think it's quite bad they gave Spike so much. Not only did we have at least three episodes centred completely around him ('Sleeper' 'Never Leave Me' and 'Lies My Parents Told Me'.. even arguably 'Bring on the Night') and not *one* focused on Xander or Giles, but if he wasn't in a scene other characters were talking about him. It was pretty much just Spike.. Spike.. Spike. Buffy pretty much talked about nothing but Spike, her and Giles only really talked when it was conflict about Spike ect.

    The Potentials:

    Generally I think they lacked anything really. Great idea on paper but poorly executed. And I think it comes down to the general lack of effort by the writers in season seven. I think the slayers in season 8 are written far better and are far more likeable. All the potentials did was whine, bitch or look scared. They brought nothing, offered nothing to the table and yet took up so much screen time in the finale season of the series.

    Buffy:

    There wasn't enough down to get an insight into what was going on with her. As a result you see a lot of fans hating her that season and even still hating her as a result of it. They're doing something wrong if they manage to make a large section of fans despise the star of the show. If we only got a few more scenes like the Buffy scene of her crying as she washes the dishes in season five, maybe people would sympathise with her more.

    Cheap Plot Devices:

    The fact that the only reason the Scoobies even won against the First was because Angel brought over an amulet introduced on his series is pitiful. It was cheap, it was out of the blue and saved their asses because the writers had backed them into a corner. As was the spell to make all the slayers. It doesn't make sense, how did Buffy suddenly have a revelation that the scythe could be used to do this after talking with the First, it was just silly. And the Scythe should have been introduced a lot earlier to give proper set up to it.

    General lack of Buffyness:

    IMO, the season seriously lacked the spark and wit that made Buffy great. I felt this way somewhat in season six as well but that season had a lot more going for it than season seven did. It was boring dialogue with boring scenes and generally it was pretty boring in how they edited and directed the episodes as well. The series had prided itself on how it made something special each week but by the time season seven had come around it had dwindled it just being another show. Where other shows were far superior in terms of direction, writing and cinematography.

    And just other little things. Like in 'Lies My Parents Told Me' with the writers pretty much screwing over *everything* the show had done with Buffy's character in the past six years. A major part of the show's entire pitch and theme was that Buffy was *chosen* to battle vampires. She never had a choice, hence the constant battle between a normal life and slayerhood. In this episode they have Spike say that a slayer "signs up for it" as if it's her fault and what's worse, they offer no rebutal for such a blatant remark that contradicts everything they've set up for seven years.

    ~ Banner by Nina ~

    Comment


    • #3
      Yeah I'm glad you chose to omit stuff from season 8 because I'm behind too and I get all confused when people start talking about it. Anyways, I actually really like Season 7 because I felt like the show kept progressing to a higher level. A lot of people didn't like the fact that Buffy was in control of their "army" but really, hasn't she always been? I mean the only difference was that the potentials were there but she's always called the shots during an apocolypse.
      Your logic does not resemble our earth logic.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
        Season seven is just a mess for me really. It's still Buffy so I can still find things enjoyable from it, but in comparison to other seasons I think it pales and perhaps why I'm so angry about it is that it was supposed to be the finale season and it didn't deliver. I'll break it down roughly as to what my main problems are;

        Inconsistencies:

        As you say, this is a lot of people's problems with the season. I think there are far too many. Just to name a few;

        1) What were the First's plans for Spike? It was never even stated. We had so many bloody episodes focused on it "Sleeper" "Never Leave Me" "Bring on the Night" "Showtime" "Lies My Parents Told Me" and so much talk about it, but we never even found out what the plans for Spike actually were? Not once. The First apparently had plans for him, yet it's foolish enough to draw attention to the fact it's using Spike by having him kill and sire a bunch of people? It was just silly.

        2) Was that Joyce, what did Joyce mean? It was never followed up on. I believe Joss said it wasn't her but that's not good enough. Fans shouldn't have to rely on external sources to understand what's going on in the show, it should be made clear and addressed within the context of the series. And it never was, and the whole plot point behind it was never addressed either.

        3) "My death would make you the next slayer." Not only is it a silly line seeing as how we didn't get one after Buffy died in 'The Gift' but it makes you wonder if the same people were even writing these episodes or had even watched the series.

        4) The Beljoxas eye telling Giles and Anya Buffy's death screwed up the slayer line. This was never brought up again, not once. It was never explained, never used as a plot point for Buffy to give her some internal struggle, just nothing. Why even bring something up if you're just going to drop it?

        5) The Turok Han being incredibly hard to kill in 'Bring on the Night' and 'Showtime' and easy to kill, even for humans in 'Chosen.'

        6) Spike being drowned under what by the Uber Vamp? Ah he doesn't breath...

        The First:

        Just a lame villain. It couldn't touch or effect anything and the only thing it could do was try and twist and manipulate but it failed terribly at that. Over the years there's many things fans have thought up that could have been used for the First. We could have had it appear as Spike while Buffy as taking a bath, we could have had it appear as Jenny to Giles to make him fear Spike, we could have had it been used as Hank to really dig in at Buffy ect. But instead it was used terribly and to great lame effect. Buffy was right to make fun of it in 'Chosen.' It did nothing.

        Lack of Scoobies:

        It was the finale season, we had Giles back and yet he might as well have not even been there. The show started with Buffy/Xander/Willow/Giles and especially with the three kids, they've been there from start to finish. People like Xander deserved a storyline and yet they got absolutely nothing. It was atrocious how little part he got in 'Chosen' I believe even SMG voiced her opinion on that in an interview, claiming she believed that the finale should have been two hours long and that Xander should have got more of a part. And Giles did nothing either.

        Too much Spike:

        Accuse me of Spike hate all you want, but I'll stick by it. When people like Xander and Giles got nothing I personally think it's quite bad they gave Spike so much. Not only did we have at least three episodes centred completely around him ('Sleeper' 'Never Leave Me' and 'Lies My Parents Told Me'.. even arguably 'Bring on the Night') and not *one* focused on Xander or Giles, but if he wasn't in a scene other characters were talking about him. It was pretty much just Spike.. Spike.. Spike. Buffy pretty much talked about nothing but Spike, her and Giles only really talked when it was conflict about Spike ect.

        The Potentials:

        Generally I think they lacked anything really. Great idea on paper but poorly executed. And I think it comes down to the general lack of effort by the writers in season seven. I think the slayers in season 8 are written far better and are far more likeable. All the potentials did was whine, bitch or look scared. They brought nothing, offered nothing to the table and yet took up so much screen time in the finale season of the series.

        Buffy:

        There wasn't enough down to get an insight into what was going on with her. As a result you see a lot of fans hating her that season and even still hating her as a result of it. They're doing something wrong if they manage to make a large section of fans despise the star of the show. If we only got a few more scenes like the Buffy scene of her crying as she washes the dishes in season five, maybe people would sympathise with her more.

        Cheap Plot Devices:

        The fact that the only reason the Scoobies even won against the First was because Angel brought over an amulet introduced on his series is pitiful. It was cheap, it was out of the blue and saved their asses because the writers had backed them into a corner. As was the spell to make all the slayers. It doesn't make sense, how did Buffy suddenly have a revelation that the scythe could be used to do this after talking with the First, it was just silly. And the Scythe should have been introduced a lot earlier to give proper set up to it.

        General lack of Buffyness:

        IMO, the season seriously lacked the spark and wit that made Buffy great. I felt this way somewhat in season six as well but that season had a lot more going for it than season seven did. It was boring dialogue with boring scenes and generally it was pretty boring in how they edited and directed the episodes as well. The series had prided itself on how it made something special each week but by the time season seven had come around it had dwindled it just being another show. Where other shows were far superior in terms of direction, writing and cinematography.

        And just other little things. Like in 'Lies My Parents Told Me' with the writers pretty much screwing over *everything* the show had done with Buffy's character in the past six years. A major part of the show's entire pitch and theme was that Buffy was *chosen* to battle vampires. She never had a choice, hence the constant battle between a normal life and slayerhood. In this episode they have Spike say that a slayer "signs up for it" as if it's her fault and what's worse, they offer no rebutal for such a blatant remark that contradicts everything they've set up for seven years.
        Not to be rude or anything because everyone's allowed to have an opinion, but if you have so many complaints about the show then why do you watch it? So many people post all the things they hate about the show over and over again and yeah all of us don't enjoy certain episodes or characters or whatnot but why focus so much on it. I get that the point of the topic was to discuss whether we like the season or not, its just that you seem so critical of this season, was there any part of it you did like?
        Your logic does not resemble our earth logic.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by molly13 View Post
          Not to be rude or anything because everyone's allowed to have an opinion, but if you have so many complaints about the show then why do you watch it?
          Season seven isn't the show (thankgod) it's one season out of eight. Just because I dislike season seven doesn't mean I dislike the show. Also as I stated above the top of my post, "It's still Buffy so I can still find things enjoyable from it..."

          So many people post all the things they hate about the show over and over again and yeah all of us don't enjoy certain episodes or characters or whatnot but why focus so much on it.
          Because the entire point of the thread was to tell Daihrin why we don't enjoy or enjoy season seven? He's asking why so many on the boards have problems with the season, I told him why I do. It's why he created the thread in the first place? So I don't think I should be made to feel bad for answering his question.

          ~ Banner by Nina ~

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm not saying you should feel bad about the way you feel towards the season. That doesn't make sense. I thought we were supposed to discuss the reasoning for hating the season if we did? Sorry if I made you upset cause I didn't intend to, I was just trying to voice my opinion like everybody else.
            Your logic does not resemble our earth logic.

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm going to pick and choose a bit, and reply to a few things with my thoughts...
              Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
              Inconsistencies:

              1) What were the First's plans for Spike? It was never even stated. We had so many bloody episodes focused on it "Sleeper" "Never Leave Me" "Bring on the Night" "Showtime" "Lies My Parents Told Me" and so much talk about it, but we never even found out what the plans for Spike actually were? Not once. The First apparently had plans for him, yet it's foolish enough to draw attention to the fact it's using Spike by having him kill and sire a bunch of people? It was just silly.
              That bit always bothered me, too. I just finished rewatching Never Leave Me this time through, so I haven't been able to be annoyed by that thread being dropped yet~

              Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
              2) Was that Joyce, what did Joyce mean? It was never followed up on. I believe Joss said it wasn't her but that's not good enough. Fans shouldn't have to rely on external sources to understand what's going on in the show, it should be made clear and addressed within the context of the series. And it never was, and the whole plot point behind it was never addressed either.
              This one I actually kind of liked -- at least to a point. I liked Dawn never really knowing whether it was Joyce or not, but I agree that the plot idea needed to be drawn out more thoroughly.

              Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
              5) The Turok Han being incredibly hard to kill in 'Bring on the Night' and 'Showtime' and easy to kill, even for humans in 'Chosen.'
              Ugh, yeah. One of the worst moments on the series, I agree.

              Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
              6) Spike being drowned under what by the Uber Vamp? Ah he doesn't breath...
              What I never understood is why nobody ever complains about vampires smoking...

              Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
              The First:

              Just a lame villain. It couldn't touch or effect anything and the only thing it could do was try and twist and manipulate but it failed terribly at that. Over the years there's many things fans have thought up that could have been used for the First. We could have had it appear as Spike while Buffy as taking a bath, we could have had it appear as Jenny to Giles to make him fear Spike, we could have had it been used as Hank to really dig in at Buffy ect. But instead it was used terribly and to great lame effect. Buffy was right to make fun of it in 'Chosen.' It did nothing.
              I wouldn't say the First was a lame villain -- I'd just say it was a poorly executed villain. I can see your point, but purely as a concept, I'd say the First ranks near the top of my Scare-O-Meter, personally.

              Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
              Lack of Scoobies:

              Too much Spike:

              When people like Xander and Giles got nothing I personally think it's quite bad they gave Spike so much.
              I'm inclined to agree with that statement, even if I really like Spike. I think, for Spike's character, the season was amazingly done, and I think Willow advanced in a fairly understandable direction as well. I would argue that Xander did have somewhat of an arc, though it was rather subtle. The whole "heart" thing that he's had since, well, the beginning of the series (most notably in S4, I think...) really appeared very strongly here, and his changing relationships with both Dawn and more significantly Anya helped propel the character's story to heights we haven't seen in high doses since S3, really. As for Giles? Well, you have a point there.

              Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
              The Potentials:

              Great idea on paper but poorly executed.
              Er, I used that line (after reading yours, sorry) on another thread earlier tonight, so I can't very well disagree with it now, can I?

              Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
              Buffy:
              Yeah, I disliked Buffy in S7. But, I've kind of disliked her since S5, although I sympathized with her a great deal more then. After the Adam/Initiative thing, she wasn't the same, and Dawn's introduction arc didn't help that. Perhaps her going through the whole Slayer-self-searching bit after her encounter with Dracula helped to drive her down the path she eventually went down? I don't know, though, I can forgive her almost as much in S7 as S6, because, when leading an all out war effort, who wouldn't try to isolate their feelings?

              Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
              Cheap plot devices:
              Er, yeah, that was rather weak, but if I were to play devil's advocate, I'd say the writers didn't have much time and had to do SOMETHING. Yeah, very weak.

              Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
              General lack of Buffyness:

              IMO, the season seriously lacked the spark and wit that made Buffy great. I felt this way somewhat in season six as well but that season had a lot more going for it than season seven did. It was boring dialogue with boring scenes and generally it was pretty boring in how they edited and directed the episodes as well. The series had prided itself on how it made something special each week but by the time season seven had come around it had dwindled it just being another show. Where other shows were far superior in terms of direction, writing and cinematography.
              Now, this here I just don't understand at all, much less agree with. I'm glad to hear the opinion, and the explanation, and hope to hear more, mind. I just can't wrap my brain around that. I actually think S7 had far more "Buffyness" than S6, what with all of the latter's deliberate literal quality. I like my show to have a bit more metaphor (not that I dislike S6, mind you~).

              Overall, though, while I can easily see the argument presented, I still can't see where all the hate comes from... Heh, I love this kind of discussion.
              "There ain't no sin and there ain't no virtue. There's just stuff people do. It's all part of the same thing. And some of the things folks do is nice, and some ain't nice, but that's just as far as any man got a right to say." -- Jim Casy

              Comment


              • #8
                I liked Season 7, but I have to agree that there was a lot of wasted potential (sorry). The ideas they had work a lot better on paper than they did on screen, and the pacing and continuity suffered sometimes. They were just trying to cram too much into too little time.

                Even so, this is the season that gave us The First saying "It's not about good. It's not about evil. It's about power" while morphing from one Big Bad to another; and it gave us Buffy saying "I'm standing on the mouth of Hell, and it's going to swallow me whole. (pause) And it'll choke on me." And it had her holding a knife to Andrew's throat and telling him "People are gonna die. Girls. Maybe me. (pause) Probably you. (pause) Probably right now." And it had Kennedy telling Willow "You are a goddess", and that dramatic battle on the Hellmouth - who cares if the Turok-Han suffered from the Inverse Ninja Effect, that was just cool to watch. And it had Buffy's smile at the end.

                More specifically:

                I'm pretty sure The First's plan for Spike was exactly what happened. By telling everybody that it had a plan for Spike, it stirred up fear and paranoia and hatred, and eventually drove Giles and Wood to betray Buffy and commit attempted murder. There was no plan for Spike to "do something" as such; the entire plan was to increase the amount of evil in the world. The plan worked.

                The First/Drusilla specifically mentions that you can't drown a vampire, but clearly having its head held underwater and water being forced into your lungs, etc, is uncomfortable for one. That's the point; you can torture Spike for hours this way without actually running any danger of killing him.

                Yes, there are a lot of people The First could have appeared as, to maximum emotional impact. But that would have meant paying more money for guest star actors - Joss mentions in the commentary to 'Lessons' that he wanted to bring back some of those Big Bads more often but they just didn't have the budget.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                  5) The Turok Han being incredibly hard to kill in 'Bring on the Night' and 'Showtime' and easy to kill, even for humans in 'Chosen.'
                  tvtropes.org has an excellent article on this phenomenon, they call it the law of "Conservation Of Ninjutsu".
                  6) Spike being drowned under what by the Uber Vamp? Ah he doesn't breath...
                  Until a few days ago, I didn't actually mind that scene too much, because there is a basis in folklore for the idea that vampires can indeed be drowned. It's closely linked with the idea that they cannot cross running water and hasn't anything to do with depriving them of oxygen. Like the occasional occurrence of garlic, this wouldn't really tie into the standard Buffyverse vampire mythology, but it wouldn't necessarily be a plot hole either.

                  Then, I read the script, and it completely destroys all fanwankability in this matter. Way to go, Marti.
                  Code:
                  Spike suddenly SPUTTERS TO LIFE. He coughs up water, then gasps 
                  horribly - fighting to get the water out of his lungs.
                  
                  DRUSILLA/FIRST (cont'd)
                  Hard to kill.
                  
                  Spike stares at Drusilla/First, trying to find his breath but it won't come.
                  kassyopeia
                  Cutting Room Florist
                  Last edited by kassyopeia; 16-08-08, 02:16 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    i imagine it would still be unpleasant and uncomfortable, even if you didn't need to breathe, if your lungs filled up with water, as his obviously did.

                    i'd imagine whatever enters a vampire's body other than blood is probably uncomfortable enough that the reflex would be to dislodge it. that's probably the case here.

                    marti even wrote that spike had water in his lungs. actually, that proves spike's reaction as being one of extreme discomfort and the need to force the water out, rather than suffocation. interesting words--"fighting to get the water out". perhaps it means that it might actually be a little more difficult for a vampire to force liquids out of themselves without their lungs able to fill with air properly.

                    i think vampires can force air into their lungs (to smoke, for example), but it doesn't happen naturally--they have to force it and perhaps it's difficult or unpleasant to do so. some might do it out of a habit learned from their human counterparts. that would explain a lot. particularly the vampires who tend to be more human than demonic--the ones who prefer to relate to humans and connect themselves closely to humanity. spike, even when he was evil, tended to reject the master's kind of pro-demon vampirism. he also has a lot of weet-bix, blooming onion, smoking and alcoholic habits/tendencies. he seems to force a lot of non-blood items in himself.

                    as far as spike choking off drusilla... i always saw that as him perhaps breaking her neck without severing her spinal cord (which would turn her to dust). choking doesn't work, but perhaps something a little more damaging would make the vampire pass out.
                    NileQT87
                    The Dark Avenger
                    Last edited by NileQT87; 16-08-08, 02:17 PM.

                    "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                    "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Daihrin View Post
                      I actually think S7 had far more "Buffyness" than S6, what with all of the latter's deliberate literal quality.
                      I agree, and I think most people do. There is a big difference between the seasons, though, because season 6 was deliberately different, whereas season 7 was explicitly and literally set up to go "right back to the beginning". So, in that sense, season 6 succeeded and season 7 failed. Personally, I still enjoy season 7 more than season 6 overall, but I can see what they're trying to do in season 6, whereas season 7's arc entirely lacks focus. The only red thread I can find is the "power" theme, all the rest of it consists of bits and pieces that are introduced and twisted and dropped depending on the message they happen to think of for a given episode. Instead of the "monster of the week" of the early seasons, we get "season arc of the week" in season 7. Which is beyond lame.
                      Originally posted by stormwreath View Post
                      They were just trying to cram too much into too little time.
                      Yes, that was a major factor. But it isn't much of an excuse, as there was no need to do any cramming. Most of the subplots never went anywhere, so they may as well have been left out to focus on advancing either the main arc (per season 5) or give us proper standalones (per season 4).
                      Yes, there are a lot of people The First could have appeared as, to maximum emotional impact. But that would have meant paying more money for guest star actors - Joss mentions in the commentary to 'Lessons' that he wanted to bring back some of those Big Bads more often but they just didn't have the budget.
                      Right, but that's only one side of the issue. Its ability to impersonate Buffy and Spike, and to be in several places at once, could have been used to sooo much greater effect than it was. Of course, villains set up as basically more powerful than the hero (which fantasy villains almost always are) need a certain level of stupidity to allow for a happy ending, but The First far outstripped anything we've seen from previous Buffy villains in this respect.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post
                        i think vampires can force air into their lungs (to smoke, for example), but it doesn't happen naturally--they have to force it and perhaps it's difficult or unpleasant to do so. some might do it out of a habit learned from their human counterparts. that would explain a lot. particularly the vampires who tend to be more human than demonic--the ones who prefer to relate to humans and connect themselves closely to humanity. spike, even when he was evil, tended to reject the master's kind of pro-demon vampirism. he also has a lot of weet-bix, blooming onion, smoking and alcoholic habits/tendencies. he seems to force a lot of non-blood items in himself.
                        This would probably sit better with me, were it not for Angel being unable to save Buffy in Prophecy Girl, and being able to smoke as Angelus in Innocence. That actually sort of works exactly the opposite of your theory: Angelus, the more demonic of the two, is able to force the air to smoke, but Angel, the one attempting to, well, "fit in" with humans, fails to save the girl he loves? Eh, I just don't buy it.

                        But that's not really on topic, is it? Bah, it was fun~
                        "There ain't no sin and there ain't no virtue. There's just stuff people do. It's all part of the same thing. And some of the things folks do is nice, and some ain't nice, but that's just as far as any man got a right to say." -- Jim Casy

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          maybe they can force enough air to smoke a cigarette, but it would take significantly more to get enough air for c.p.r.? at least marti wrote that spike was FIGHTING to expel the water from his lungs. she wrote it like it wasn't maybe easy.

                          that's the best fanwank i've got. let's not forget the no-blood-flow thing and sex.

                          or maybe they just are physically incapable of being life-giving vessels for some magical metaphysical reason that has nothing to do with anatomy. darla did make a comment about not even being able to push connor out. could be the same vampire rule that makes it so angel can't give c.p.r.

                          "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                          "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by molly13 View Post
                            Not to be rude or anything because everyone's allowed to have an opinion, but if you have so many complaints about the show then why do you watch it? So many people post all the things they hate about the show over and over again and yeah all of us don't enjoy certain episodes or characters or whatnot but why focus so much on it. I get that the point of the topic was to discuss whether we like the season or not, its just that you seem so critical of this season, was there any part of it you did like?
                            This thread specifically is about why so many people dislike season 7. So that gives vampmogs all the reason what he dislikes about the season.
                            As to why people watch if they don't like it is a rather unfair question IMO. It's states something general while in this it is not, because it is the last season of the show and not the first. If you like the first six seasons why would you suddenly stop watching with s7? Especially if you have grown to certain characters which you expect to show up and have a story to tell. Which is suddenly, as it turns out, is not the case.
                            And to me that last the lack of Giles, Dawn, Anya, Willow and Xander is the reason why I dislike season 7. I especially dislike that Spike's arc is progressed not only at the cost of their arclines, but is even progressed over the backs over said characters (which is ultimately shown in Empty Spaces/Touched. And Giles also in Lies My Parent Told Me, and Xander's also in First Date and Chosen). Also Spike's arcline progressed over Buffy's character, who needed to be turned into a non-caring bitch (again).

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post
                              or maybe they just are physically incapable of being life-giving vessels for some magical metaphysical reason that has nothing to do with anatomy. darla did make a comment about not even being able to push connor out. could be the same vampire rule that makes it so angel can't give c.p.r.
                              Yeah, that's how I always explain that scene to myself. Canon overwhelmingly says that a vampire's lungs are quite operational - how would they speak otherwise? But breath in the context of CPR, at a very shallow metaphorical level, is equivalent to life, and Angel doesn't have any life to give, so his breath wouldn't do the trick. Even though I'm a scientist, I'm quite okay with that interpretation.

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by kassyopeia View Post
                                Yeah, that's how I always explain that scene to myself. Canon overwhelmingly says that a vampire's lungs are quite operational - how would they speak otherwise? But breath in the context of CPR, at a very shallow metaphorical level, is equivalent to life, and Angel doesn't have any life to give, so his breath wouldn't do the trick. Even though I'm a scientist, I'm quite okay with that interpretation.
                                I'm cool with it too, although I'm not a scientist, it seems in the verse, certain physical elements have both natural and supernatural qualities (like blood and the brain etc), so I suspend belief to a degree. I'm also past the whole 'Joss sucking at math' thing.

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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by kana View Post
                                  I'm also past the whole 'Joss sucking at math' thing.
                                  You mean like here?
                                  Code:
                                  XANDER (V.O.)
                                  What am I going to do? I think about
                                  sex all the time. Sex. Help. Four times
                                  five is thirty. Five times six is thirty-two...
                                  Naked girls. Naked women. Naked Buffy.
                                  Oh, stop me.

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                                  • #18
                                    The problem of Season 7 reminds me of F.R.Leavis's famous if subtle distinction between "the imagined" and "the contrived". It is not always an easy matter but I think it is important. It is like the distinction between a real cat and a clockwork cat. The clockwork contrivance might be quite neat in its way and it might "work" efficiently, but it is not alive and nothing can make it so.

                                    On the other hand the first three seasons of BtVS were works of real, powerful imagination. The show was full of life. The characters, major and minor, the high school and local and family life,and the stories all flowed like a living stream.

                                    Season 7 was a series of contrivances,many of them dull and predictable as if they were written by the numbers, and badly even by that standard. The cast kept the show watchable. They all deserve medals for what they achieved with such poor material. My affection for these people kept me watching.

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by stormwreath View Post
                                      I liked Season 7, but I have to agree that there was a lot of wasted potential (sorry).
                                      Haha, I love a good pun!

                                      Even so, this is the season that gave us The First saying "It's not about good. It's not about evil. It's about power" while morphing from one Big Bad to another; and it gave us Buffy saying "I'm standing on the mouth of Hell, and it's going to swallow me whole. (pause) And it'll choke on me." And it had her holding a knife to Andrew's throat and telling him "People are gonna die. Girls. Maybe me. (pause) Probably you. (pause) Probably right now." And it had Kennedy telling Willow "You are a goddess", and that dramatic battle on the Hellmouth - who cares if the Turok-Han suffered from the Inverse Ninja Effect, that was just cool to watch. And it had Buffy's smile at the end.
                                      Some of that I liked, some of it I didn't. But I agree, season seven gave us some great stuff. Every season has highs and lows, I just feel that the lows of season seven were lower than that of any other season.

                                      I'm pretty sure The First's plan for Spike was exactly what happened. By telling everybody that it had a plan for Spike, it stirred up fear and paranoia and hatred, and eventually drove Giles and Wood to betray Buffy and commit attempted murder. There was no plan for Spike to "do something" as such; the entire plan was to increase the amount of evil in the world. The plan worked.
                                      Then why spend so much time trying to seduce/corrupt Spike? Especially with Drusilla in the cave? If there's no real plan for Spike why not just dust him right there and then? I mean, he's a powerful warrior on the side of good -wouldn't it be a good idea to eliminate him as soon as the chance arises? I agree that a large part of the plan was to spread mistrust amongst the scoobies but the First sure did spend a lot of time with Spike one-on-one. With the ammount of screentime devoted to discussing the First's plan with Spike, we should have either gotten some kind of payoff or actually had it confirmed onscreen that there was no plan. They left too many loose ends.

                                      The First/Drusilla specifically mentions that you can't drown a vampire, but clearly having its head held underwater and water being forced into your lungs, etc, is uncomfortable for one. That's the point; you can torture Spike for hours this way without actually running any danger of killing him.
                                      There's no reason why Spike would have water in his lungs. I'm sure it would be very uncomfortable to have a lungful of water, nobody has ever disputed that. The problem many people (myself included) have with this scene is that this form of torture should not have worked on a vampire at all because vampire's don't have to breathe. Why would Spike choose to inhale while his head is underwater? He doesn't have to. The only reason he did was because of crappy writing. In the AtS episode "Why we Fight" Angel was sunk into the ocean to rescue a submarine. He spent much more time underwater than Spike did, and he didn't need to forcefully cough up water. Why? Because he wasn't breathing it in.

                                      Yes, there are a lot of people The First could have appeared as, to maximum emotional impact. But that would have meant paying more money for guest star actors - Joss mentions in the commentary to 'Lessons' that he wanted to bring back some of those Big Bads more often but they just didn't have the budget.
                                      Even so, there's a lot of thing the First could have done with the actors they had. The First/Spike taunting Buffy whilst she's in the bath is a popular one. It could have appeared as Angel for Buffy, or Buffy for Dawn. Maybe pose as Halfrek to taunt Anya about her vengance days. There's lotsa more creative stuff they could have done with just the actors from that season.

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                                      • #20
                                        Rather than just go into all the flaws, which others have ably discussed, I'm going to talk about how the whole thing could have been tightened up or modified from what was essentially there into a better season.

                                        1. Pay Off Your Mysteries: There were a few major mysteries that were raised and pretty much abandoned, and they should have been built into the season arc. The biggest is Spike and the First's interest in him -- I'll discuss that later. The second is exactly why the First was acting at all. Even now, there has never been a clean answer as to which time Buffy came back that the First meant to. For me, the best answer they could have chosen is "Prophecy Girl". For a few reasons --
                                        • Weren't we going "back to the beginning"? What a great way to demonstrate that than by blaming the entire crisis on an event in the first season finale.
                                        • The First was... already back before "Bargaining". The manifested First in "Amends" should not have been treated as an insignificant detail -- that episode could and should have been incorporated into the steps it was taking in Season 7. I'll discuss that with Spike, as well.
                                        • It makes the number of active Slayers metaphysically significant long before the spell in "Chosen", since it's that split in the line that would be responsible for the First. It would also have meant that Faith's appearance could have been more significant to the arc itself, and that they could have cleaned up the "just how can a new Slayer be called" issue.


                                        2. Spike: Spike's arc needed to be reworked. Firstly, the plan for him by the First should have been *central* to that arc. Basing it on "Amends", the writers should have made it the fact that Spike was a vampire with a soul the reason it wanted him. Contrive some reason why the First needed to corrupt a vampire with a soul to its side to win.

                                        It obviously wanted to corrupt Angel, and it failed. Build backwards, and have the First realize that it failed with Angel because he already had a network, ties to his goodness. With Spike, it could have seen the opportunity to corrupt him as being worth pursuing because he didn't have that yet. Basically, use Spike as the man-caught-in-the-middle all season, struggling between the drive to be good and evil. Have the major payoff to his character arc, late in the season, be resolving this in favor of him being a champion. Related to this, some changes to the Spuffy arc...

                                        3. Spuffy: Because in this version of Season 7, Spike is at war with the First's intentions for him and his love for Buffy, the big drive of the Spuffy arc that season should have been shifted. Rather than having Buffy declare her belief in him in 7.09, save that to near the end of the season, before or in lieu of the "I love you". You do this because, in this version of the First's plan, Buffy realizing she believes in him is part of what frees him from the First's influence just in time to turn the tide. You can still do the "I love you", but the "I believe in you" was very premature. Especially since Buffy struggling to accept him would have been a great way to play on her emotional distance through the season.

                                        4. Buffy's Speeches: No more of them after "Bring On The Night", period. The pacing of the season is very uneven, and as a result, despite Buffy saying that they were an army and were going to seek out their worst fears... they never did. They instead did what they always do, sit around and wait to be attacked. As a result, more speeches from Buffy. How about instead, we get some awesomeness, even in montage form, of Buffy and the gang being hands on training the potentials? Scenes like the one of Buffy and Faith breaking in to that vamp nest and cleaning house? The gang should have become much more proactive after "Bring on the Night", coordinating hunting every night. A new way of doing business, something more like the teaser to "Bargaining" with the gang hunting with the Buffybot.

                                        5. The Potentials/New Characters: Less of them. Since Season 8 wouldn't have happened yet, I disregard it when I say... fewer potentials. I think the peril is greater if the idea is that there were only 100 or 200 of these girls to begin with, and then you can also reduce the number that come to Sunnydale. Realistically, there probably should have been no more than 12 or 15 in Sunnydale, and only 5 or 6 speaking parts.

                                        Wood can be done away with completely. Since in this version, Spike's major arc is fueled by internal conflict, and not someone else's opinion of his identity, Wood's arc would add nothing. Keep him as an ancillary character that tries to romance Buffy despite being totally out of the loop, just for some romantic conflict, but his major arc can be thrown out completely.

                                        6. The Scythe: Introduce earlier. Around the mid-season mark. Make it a sort of mystery that they know belongs to the Slayer, and know the bad guys want, but aren't sure why. But it definitely shouldn't show up out of nowhere in 7.20.

                                        7. Faith: When she shows up, she should be important to the plot. I kind of like the idea that, if we're exploring the split in the Slayer line, perhaps it's her and Buffy that need to be together in order to make the Scythe do what it has to, or to learn what they need to from it.

                                        I liked what she got out of her Wood arc -- the ability to believe in relationships and trusting people. But with no Wood, it has to come from somewhere else. So, keep it, but either A) use Xander, or B) let her learn it by watching, by befriending Buffy vis a vis Spike/Buffy or Xander or Anya vis a vis Xander/Anya.

                                        8. Caleb: Introduce earlier. Again, around midseason. I actually had an idea that you could introduce him as a nominal ally, but ambiguous (the way Wood was early on), and discover later that he's been having a similar struggle to Spike. Then, when Spike is won over for sure to Buffy's side, the First claims Caleb, and you have him again as the big showdown for Buffy, but with time to have gotten attached to him.

                                        9. The First: Non-corporeal is fine, but insubstantial isn't -- the thing would have been better if it could still affect the world around it, magically or some other way.

                                        10. The Scoobies: MOAR! It's not that they didn't have the screentime, it's that nothing happened with it. After "Selfless", there is little or no serious character development and drama around Willow, Xander, Anya, or Dawn for the rest of the season. It's there in spots, and Willow gets an episode, but it's just not enough. They are sort of there on auto-pilot, and the writers clearly take for granted that we were going to fill the gaps in the storytelling ourselves and assume they were doing other things. Don't do that! Have them teaching, have them fighting, all of it. They should have been the Majors and Colonels in Buffy's army (as they are in Season 8), and not just background characters there to remind us that there were less crazy, more intimate stories in the Buffyverse.

                                        Those are the 10 major points I can think of, but I'm sure it's not exhaustive.
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