Who Raped The Dog?

[kassyopeia]

No, this is not a whodunit question. This is, basically, the "Darkest Hours" thread for the villains. A "Rape The Dog" moment is one in which

[A] villain commit[s] an act that is so utterly depraved that the audience loses all sympathy for (and empathy with) that villain for good, [by doing] something extreme enough that the audience is repelled, repulsed.

The difference between this and Kick The Dog is that while Kick The Dog establishes the character is evil because of the pointlessness of the act, Rape The Dog works off how extreme the crime is. It's "quality", not quantity that matters here -- destroying a city won't do it, but crimes such as torture, especially rape, and especially -- especially -- anything to do with children will automatically hurl a villain across the depravity line.

Choose, if you will, the Big Bags and top henchmen that you feel have crossed this line, and post about the moments that qualify for each of them, and about why these moments were somehow worse than planning to bring about the Apocalypse in one way or another.

[The_Narrator]

Sorry, only got a minute (will add more later!), but the one for me that established Spike as a real nasty villain was in 'School Hard', when he confronts the scared teacher (parent?) and tells him 'You're too old to drink', allowing him a split-second to think he might be allowed to live ... then snaps his neck in complete cold blood, snarking 'But not too old to kill.' Creepy.

[burkle25]

Warren

(still working out my thoughts) just the fact that Warren is human and has a soul put him above mostly all of the people on your list .. with Maggie ... then Andrew, Jonathan behind him (but their actions are more of kick the dog than raping it). Faith actions I view differently because we know her past and who see is and I understood why she acted the way she did. All the other characters are evil some w/o souls so their actions will have no withstanding affect on them.

He crossed line when he introduced a gun into the Buffyverse. Being human and having a soul puts his dirty deeds over the line of anyone else. He knew exactly what he was doing and possible consequences of his actions. Yes killing Tara was an accident, but he meant to kill Buffy. He went from the world of supernatural to reality. With the plans that the Trio cooked up, Buffy would always pull through because she has faced worse. But Buffy vs a gun, she has no chance of survival. He almost crossed the line when he killed his ex, but it wasn't premeditated. I had some sympathy for him then ... he was pathetic and weak ... yes he tried to frame Buffy, but I could empathize why. So that was his kick the dog moment, but he raped the dog when he shot at Buffy/killed Tara.


... kudos on the thread title ....

[kassyopeia]

Okay, these are mine, I think:

• Ben, for summoning the Queller. Murdering mental patients (in restraints!) rates almost as high as murdering children. Plus, "cleaning up Glory's mess", not an acceptable motive.
  
  
• Warren, for the attempted rape (not the killing) of Katrina. One of the hallmarks of RTD moments is that even the lesser villains, not just the righteous characters, will be shocked and appalled by them: "Dude, that is messed up!"
  
  
• Caleb, pretty much from the moment he shows up. The embodiment of despicable.
  
  
• I'm on the fence about the Mayor trying to snuff Buffy in the hospital. This would normally qualify, but there are extenuating circumstances (justifiable grief, almost justifiable grievance) and he's just so cool overall that it doesn't quite make it on my scale.

the one for me that established Spike as a real nasty villain

Grrr, I purposefully excluded Spike from the list because I didn't want this to turn into yet another discussion of the attempted rape, and still he's the first one that's mentioned.

[vampmogs]

My two big ‘Rape the dog’ moments (odd term isn’t it?) are probably Warren and Spike circa season six.

I was utterly repulsed by Warren from around ‘Dead Things’ and never overcame it, in fact I think it just grew worse as time went on. After murdering Katrina the way he did and the way he treat Andrew and Jonathon afterwards, and later trying to pin Buffy for the murder, I couldn’t look back. It just repulsed me, *he* repulsed me, it crossed a line for me. Which is odd because so many of our big bads and henchmen have murdered innocent people before, but Warren had a personal connection with this girl and I just felt so wrong on so many levels. Andrew was a close second but he was somewhat redeemed from a ‘Rape the dog’ moment only because of his initial remorse after Katrina died. After ‘Dead Things’ the repulsion only continued further, lines like “what’s the matter baby you’ve never fought a real man before?” certainly didn’t help, nor did the attempted murder on Buffy in her backyard and subsequent murder of Tara as a result. And in season eight the hating is only further continued with the

Spoiler:

attempted torture and lobotomy of Willow in ‘The Long Way home’ the revelation he helped concoct Amy’s spell in ‘The Killer In Me’ to make Willow suffer, and his latest attempt to murder slayers in the castle. All round a guy it’s pretty easy to hate, and in my opinion completely and utterly unredeemable in my eyes. It’d take some pretty spectacular writing from the writers to ever get me to feel a drop of sympathy again for this character.

The other is Spike season six, albeit far more controversial, and not even on the list, but I stick by it. We’ve seen the character murder innocents, heavily imply he’s raped before, hurt our core characters physically and attempted to kill Buffy on one or more occasion and we have the knowledge he’s slaughtered children in orphanages and tortured many of his victims with railroad Spikes but I didn’t dislike him up until season six. I think what changed in season six was it was hard to stomach his claims of loving Buffy ect, but then doing some really horrible things in my opinion whilst spouting out endlessly about how much he did care for her. It was harder to stomach for me and it was far more personal. A number of scenes spring to mind, scenes such as him trying to make Buffy distance herself from her friends in ‘Dead Things’ with his “you belong in the dark with me” and “what would they think of you if they find out?” which are big “No, no’s” for me since I’m a big supported of the Core Scooby faction, scenes of him objectifying Buffy and bragging about her calling her such things as a “bint” right in front of her to Riley in ‘As You Were’ which must have been humiliating for her, not to mention incredibly derogatory and of course the attempted rape in ‘Seeing Red.’ Which was only “attempted” not because Spike had some sudden moral realisation that what he was doing was wrong, but because another party physically intervened and prevented him from actually raping her. I know I’m in the minority in this, I know there’s a lot of people who jump to his defence and feel sorry for him but I don’t believe he deserves sympathy and couldn’t really care a less how Buffy treat him, he was a unremorseful murderer. And like I said, I never hated him despite his horrid crimes in the past, but because it was more personal and because I had to sit through him constant statements of how he’d do anything for Buffy ect, I found it hard to stomach.

I’d still count Spike as a ‘Rape the dog’ moment even if I did grow to like him again, because with the soul I think they might as well be two completely different characters. Despite if you think they are the same or not, he’s clearly changed mentality and wouldn’t do these things again with the soul, so they might as well be two different individuals, thus I feel “season six Spike” qualifies, even if I like the character again.

I would have also included Connor after the revelation he’d have brought Fred’s “scalp back” even when Jasmine’s spell wasn’t effecting him, but I don’t think he qualifies as he wasn’t a big bad or a henchmen which is what the thread seems to focus on. And even then I’d be pushing it, as like with Spike something physically intervened and completely altered his character (the new memories and mind wipe) thus making me like him again.

EDIT: Oops.. sorry Kass just saw your reasons as to why you excluded Spike from the list and I've pretty much given a perfect example of what you were probably attempting to avoid. If it's any consolation I don't plan to be engaging in any back and forth on the matter, I've said my piece and ain't looking for a debate on that particular character I've said repeatedly my opinions on the matter.

On that note, now Ben's an interesting choice and really I have to agree to some extent. He was pretty awful for summoning the queller wasn't he? A lot of people, including myself, forget he did that.

[kassyopeia]

Oops.. sorry Kass just saw your reasons as to why you excluded Spike from the list and I've pretty much given a perfect example of what you were probably attempting to avoid.

No need to apologize, discuss it all you like. I mainly wanted to explain why he's missing from the list.

A lot of people, including myself, forget he did that.

Yeah, it's easy to ignore or forget about, because he didn't do anything on-screen himself, and the scene in which he admits to being responsible feels more like a tacked-on reveal for the audience than character development for Ben, somehow.

Mind spoilering the season 8 stuff?

[Wolfie Gilmore]

My RTD moments (ok, for a moment there when I read the abbreviation, I thought you were talking about Russell T Davies doing something unspeakable to K9...or Mickey ):

-Agree re Warren and Ben. Katrina and Queller...brr.

-Dru...it's not something she did, but something she threatened. Can't remember the episode, but it's where she's going to kill a little boy in a playground, before Angel shows up and tells the kid to scram. When she says, "What will your mummy say when they find your body?" (or something along those lines, I forget whether it was "they" or "your mummy"), it shocked me into remembering she wasn't just a wacky loony lady, but a cold killer. The word "body" there had some of the shock value that it did in The Body, when Buffy says you're "not supposed to move the body".

[vampmogs]

Yeah, it's easy to ignore or forget about, because he didn't do anything on-screen himself, and the scene in which he admits to being responsible feels more like a tacked-on reveal for the audience than character development for Ben, somehow.

I agree, it's probably why. It makes him less innocent than he was kind of portrayed. I mean yes he was innocent in the sense that this life was chosen for him, but it doesn't give him the right to do what he did. He's basically responsible for genocide, sounds extreme but really he's attempted to wipe out a whole specific group of individuals, and it's implied that it isn't the first time he has had to "clean up one of Glory's messes."

Mind spoilering the season 8 stuff?

I'm bloody stupid sometimes lol, done... always forget to do that

-Dru...it's not something she did, but something she threatened. Can't remember the episode, but it's where she's going to kill a little boy in a playground, before Angel shows up and tells the kid to scram. When she says, "What will your mummy say when they find your body?" (or something along those lines, I forget whether it was "they" or "your mummy"), it shocked me into remembering she wasn't just a wacky loony lady, but a cold killer. The word "body" there had some of the shock value that it did in The Body, when Buffy says you're "not supposed to move the body".

Yup, right there with ya! I think you're right in saying that it's the "body" that makes it all the more frightening and "real." Because the word has so many associations with it and brings up so many visuals, you immediately start picturing a kids lifeless corpse and it makes what she's saying all the more realistic and terrifying. I think it’s also pretty striking because a lot of the time, the people our vamps kill are actually used as jokes. As for example Spike’s “we killed a homeless man on this bench, me and Dru.. Those were good times.” It’s played for laughs.

I'd say it's all in the presentation of these acts really. I mean with Angelus, he's done some really cruel and horrific things. But often it's presented as so artistic and interesting because he's such a unique villain and he takes so much effort in the artistry of what he's doing, that you to take on that kind of view when watching the things he's done. There's a certain psychotic and really unnerving brilliance in his most horrible crimes and it's hard to detest his character for them as a result of that.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I'm bloody stupid sometimes lol, done... always forget to do that

Randomly remembered you were australian and suddenly heard that in an aussie accent. Probably just been watching too much House with Billy-from-neighbours.

Yup, right there with ya! I think you're right in saying that it's the "body" that makes it all the more frightening and "real."

Yes, it makes a jump from "fantasy evil" - the evil of having visions and making a "wonderful mess" killing a slayer - to murder.

As for example Spike's "we killed a homeless man on this bench, me and Dru.. Those were good times." It's played for laughs.

Yeah, so much of Spike's "evil" does seem funny. Ditto Drusilla, with Spike urging her to "eat something", even though that something is a person. Though, to be fair, quite a cartoonish person...Sheila's not exactly a fully rounded character.

I'd say it's all in the presentation of these acts really. I mean with Angelus, he's done some really cruel and horrific things. But often it's presented as so artistic and interesting because he's such a unique villain and he takes so much effort in the artistry of what he's doing, that you to take on that kind of view when watching the things he's done. There's a certain psychotic and really unnerving brilliance in his most horrible crimes and it's hard to detest his character for them as a result of that.

Yeah, the artistic element makes it less easy to think of things in human terms. It's abstract, somehow. When he tells Fred he'd "rape her to death" in season 4 of Ats, that's rather uncharacteristically brutal for him.

Oh, I've got a Spike one though...when he threatens to ram a bottle through Willow's face. Or are we not doing Spike? Or just not the AR?

[Retrograde]

Most definitely Warren for introducing a gun into the picture. Plus, hey, soul!

I was hovering over Caleb as well, but we don't know his history, his motives for doing what he did. Same with the Mayor. If Faith can be excused because of her history, then so can these guys if we ever find it out! Although Faith killing that demon for the books (can't remember which episode), the one where she thinks it's dead then it leaps on top of her and she has to kill it while it's on top of her - that's where I lost respect for her. Doesn't mean she's evil though!

Just went straight past all the vamps, because no soul can account for everything.

Johnathan and Andrew I think were just in it for the ride and never wanted to do anything seriously evil, they were just manipulated by Warren and The First.

Even though the Mayor was evil, I still respected him for his level of devotion for his goal. Eating those spiders cannot have been enjoyable!

[vampmogs]

Randomly remembered you were australian and suddenly heard that in an aussie accent. Probably just been watching too much House with Billy-from-neighbours.

Ah Billy... son of Susan and Karl.. yes I'm ashamed to admit I know that.

Yes, it makes a jump from "fantasy evil" - the evil of having visions and making a "wonderful mess" killing a slayer - to murder.

Agreed. As for example, it gave me shivers when Andrew turns around and stabs Jonathon in the gut, over seeing Angelus drain a victim with his teeth. Anything more 'human' over 'fantasy' hits harder.

Yeah, so much of Spike's "evil" does seem funny. Ditto Drusilla, with Spike urging her to "eat something", even though that something is a person. Though, to be fair, quite a cartoonish person...Sheila's not exactly a fully rounded character.

I think BtVs is pretty interesting in how they present things. I've always liked how the show uses characters in so many different ways. As for example, in one moment we can have Spike being humorous and funny, the next episode he'll be presented incredibly sinister. It picks and chooses and presents them differently and I kind of think it's the same with their crimes. You'll have the vamps in particular referencing some of their past crimes and it's almost played for laughs, but when it's needed the writers will suddenly hit us hard with the gravity of their crimes. As for instance, Spike joking about the homeless guy in comparison to the very sinister scene of him talking to Buffy about "things he's done to girl's Dawn's age."

Yeah, the artistic element makes it less easy to think of things in human terms. It's abstract, somehow. When he tells Fred he'd "rape her to death" in season 4 of Ats, that's rather uncharacteristically brutal for him.

Ah yes Angelus season four says a few things that are very brutal. I'd forgot about that, I think there's also a line where he says he'll use his Irish accent whilst he rips Fred to death as well which is quite blunt and shocking.

Oh, I've got a Spike one though...when he threatens to ram a bottle through Willow's face. Or are we not doing Spike? Or just not the AR?

I think just not the AR And I agree with that the scene. The way he grabs her hair and pulls it back and then puts it to her face is all very violent and in-your-face and the way Willow reacts with the tears and the begging makes it all the more horrific. The Spike/Willow scene in 'Initiative' is also quite horrific I think, at least before it's undercut for humour. The way she's struggling and fighting on the bed and desperately saying "no no" is far more realistic than the usual vamp biting.

Johnathan and Andrew I think were just in it for the ride and never wanted to do anything seriously evil, they were just manipulated by Warren and The First.

I'm conflicted about Andrew. He basically admits in 'Storyteller' that he knew it wasn't really Warren but he did it anyway. And I find it hard to feel sorry for someone who's so stupid they can be that easily manipulated in the first place, it wouldn't have worked on a Scooby. Kind of like how I have little sympathy for Connor how he takes part in killing the virgin by following Cordy, who is so blatantly obvious in her evil ways that it just makes Connor look so incredibly thick.

[kassyopeia]

Yes, it makes a jump from "fantasy evil" - the evil of having visions and making a "wonderful mess" killing a slayer - to murder.

Killing a Slayer is a special case in another respect as well, I think, because it's a fair fight, and the audience never has a problem with that. Murdering children is at the other end of the scale, not only because children are by definition innocent (usually) but also because they're helpless (again, usually).

Oh, I've got a Spike one though...when he threatens to ram a bottle through Willow's face. Or are we not doing Spike? Or just not the AR?

Who's doing Spike?

Seriously, I don't mind thread drift per se, I just didn't want "Seeing Red" to dominate the discussion, as it tends to do because it's so controversial. How about this, you can talk about the AR as much as you like as long as you talk about something else as well in the post in question.

The way he grabs her hair and pulls it back and then puts it to her face is all very violent and in-your-face and the way Willow reacts with the tears and the begging makes it all the more horrific. The Spike/Willow scene in 'Initiative' is also quite horrific I think, at least before it's undercut for humour. The way she's struggling and fighting on the bed and desperately saying "no no" is far more realistic than the usual vamp biting.

I agree, the reaction of the victim has a lot to do with how we perceive the scene. The stock victims we see every few episodes just get killed and that's that. The same effect comes into play in action movies a lot - when extras get shot, they fall down and are dead, nobody cares. When characters get shot, they always have lots of time to suffer before eventually dying (or not), which gives the scene a completely different emotional impact.
Incidentally, I just have to say that terror is the emotion Hannigan does best. In the scenes with Spike, when Glory drags her along the floor in "Tough Love", she makes it so totally believable that one can't help but hate the villain for putting Willow through that.

[sueworld]

EDIT: Oops.. sorry Kass just saw your reasons as to why you excluded Spike from the list and I've pretty much given a perfect example of what you were probably attempting to avoid. If it's any consolation I don't plan to be engaging in any back and forth on the matter, I've said my piece and ain't looking for a debate on that particular character I've said repeatedly my opinions on the matter.

If you truly aren't looking for a debate on this matter may I be so bold as to say that maybe you should trim parts of your post then, especially as you say you don't want people like myself challenging you on your remarks.

Anyhoo, to the topic at hand. For me Warren jumped from comedy villain to serious bad guy when he killed his girlfriend. The manner in which he did it, and the fact that he never showed any remorse made me finally realise how dangerous he truly was. Being human he may have had a soul, but you wouldn't have thought it at that point.

After that terrible act thats when the laugher died.

[tangent]

I'm really sort of drawing a blank here. There were some ruly terrifying villains in BTVS who did some horrible things but the description of 'Rape the Dog' given above seem to indicate that the act should be A) pointless and B) depraved.

Now all the big bads had motives which although horrible, are understandable. Be it a thirst for power, a need to get home, revenge, grief or the ushering in of a new world order, they all acted for a reason.

The closest I can get to would be some of the crimes of Angelus, especially the way he taunted Giles with the body of Jenny, torturing him as much for the pleasure as to get information and the way he turned that girl (who's name escapes me for the moment) just to pass a message on to Buffy. All of these actions seem to contain an element of doing it for it's own sake, for the shock value rather than to obtain an end in itself and both were truly depraved acts.

Drusilla also embodies this type of cruelty for cruelty's sake. As Wolfie points out there's her chat with the little boy and that shiver of realisation that she's a stone hearted killer who will take a small childs life in the blink of an eye. I don't think that example is wuite as bad as Angelus though.

The only other thing I can think of is Dark Willow's little chat with Dawn at Rack's. If she had gone through with her threat to turn Dawn back into a ball of energy I think that would be just as perverse and meaningless act as any of angelus's.

[kassyopeia]

the description of 'Rape the Dog' given above seem to indicate that the act should be A) pointless and B) depraved.

Not really. If my condensed quote gave that impression, it's probably my fault and not the source articles'. The way I understood it, "Pet/Kick the dog" must be actions performed for their own sake to establish someone as good/bad deep down, while "Rape the dog" is more about the action itself. The motivation does still matter, e.g. if an RTD-type action is performed for the greater good (torturing a henchman to gain important information to foil the villain's plan), or if there are extenuating circumstances of some sort, but pointlessness is not required.

[tangent]

Right, I read as being that Kick the Dog served as a petty pointless act that serves to remind us that the villain, who we might have been cheering on just a little bit until that point, was in fact a right royal barsteward. It would follow for me then that Raping said Dog rather than just kicking it would be the same thing but taken to the Nth degree

[kassyopeia]

It would follow for me then that Raping said Dog rather than just kicking it would be the same thing but taken to the Nth degree

Ah, but that would make sense.

In the end, all three dog-related classifications are defined by the effect they have on the audience. If it makes you like the character, it's a "Pet", if it makes you loathe them, it's a "Kick", if it places them beyond redemption, it's a "Rape".

ETA: I'm surprised Mr Trick is getting votes, he seemed not only amusing but also pretty harmless to me, on the whole.

[Nina]

I'm not sure who gets my vote(s) yet. I've no big trouble with villians being evil because I don't really care for villians (maybe Faith excluded ... ). When I love a villian, I love him because he is dangerous, funny or unique. I love Angelus in Passion, he did horrible things but he is the big bad ... it's expected. The same as Drusilla, Glory, The First, Spike, The Master etc.

Warren and Ben will get my votes I think, they were not evil bad guys from origin ... they are capable of good and they do bad, which is for me an interesting story, but also the moment that I give up on a character. The fact that those two are never redeemed, give me the peace to hate them.

Andrew is another problem, he is a pretty repulsive little guy ... he did bad things, doesn't really care and becomes an unwelcome part of the team where he gets no redemtion story but the audience should laugh about the sweet little attempted rapist/murderer. (And no I won't get over the provocation in TGIQ, create a whole thing ... just to provocate Angel (and Spike) and to laugh about it afterwards ... )

Maggie Walsh is close, but she doesn't repulses me like Warren or Andrew, and she didn't shock me like Ben did.

[BlasterBoy]

I know you're trying to get away from the Spike talk, but let me just say: I would've voted for Spike. No doubt in my mind.

But, from the others, Angelus. He didn't just try and hurt Buffy's friends, but he tortured her, and while it made for great TV, I realized that he would be the biggest emotional bad guy Buffy would ever face. I was right

[tangent]

Ah, but that would make sense.

Not really. I can understand the frustrations of some bad guy missing out on what he wanted, gettting mad at one of the good gys or a hostage he's taken, anything like that really and aiming a kick at the cute faced little puppy. It doesn't really add anything to the bad guys plans it doesn't further his ends in any way but it does remind us of how bad he is and yes it kind of makes sense because we can empathise with the frustration if not the nastiness.

Raping a dog though, that's just sick. It's depravity on a level that few people could really understand. Again it's something that doesn't really achieve anything for the villain regarding his ultimate ends it's only there to point out that this guys is someone you can feel no sympathy or empathy for, it's an alien act that stresses that this baddie is unredeemable and truly, truly evil.

The fact that raping the dog is kicking the dog to the Nth degree makes sense only when looked at from outside the work. Inside the work raping a dog achieves nothing and from the point of view of the story is just completely pointless nastiness.

The way that Mr Blonde tortures the cop in Resevoir Dogs would be a good example for me. If Mr Blonde actually had an understandable motive for his crime or hadn't used such extreme measures to torture the policeman, the audience may have managed some small sark of empathy for the character. The senselessness of it all is where the horror of that scene comes from.