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  • Tara as the First?

    Hi

    I'm new and I don't know if its been discussed...

    But I've recently bought The Watchers Guides plus the Bite Me book, I'm not sure which one it is in, but it said that Joss wanted the Tara to the face of the First (and the only one), but thats one of the things that never came to be...

    But thinking about it, had Amber agreed, I think that that would of been really good, as it would of brought more dimension to the Tara character and how the First interacted with everyone when it was wearing her face.. rather than swapping and changing to different ones to suit..

    Although I wouldn't change the end of Lessons (I just mean after that), plus Harry Groener, but the rest it deff would of have more impact had it been Tara (esp for the Tara herself.. she could of had a little fun the actress rather than the Willow lap dog we seen most of the time)

    Thats my opinion anyway , what do u think?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Molly636 View Post
    Joss wanted the Tara to the face of the First (and the only one)
    The only one? I haven't heard that before. He's quoted as saying that he would have liked to keep using the Big Bads more, instead of Buffy and Spike, but it would have been too expensive. Using only one face doesn't make much sense to me, as the shapeshifting ability is certainly one of the more interesting aspects of the incorporeal villain, and very much part of the way it was introduced back in "Amends".

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    • #3
      But it wouldn't have been Tara. It would have just been Tara's face (I think alot of people forget that).

      I think it would have been neat to have Tara in "Conversations With Dead People" rather then Cassie. Though that was a pretty cool scene between her and Willow... But having Tara would have kinda changed the way people saw the character I think.

      I really don't know. Personally I have no clue how I would react. On one hand it would be cool to see Amber Benson again. On the other hand, would I like to see my favorite character's face evil?


      oh, welcome to the forum!

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      • #4
        I remember reading that Amber Benson didn't want to appaear as the first, mainly due to scheduling conflicts, but also because she didn't want people to think of the Tara character as evil, which I guess is a fair point.

        But if Tara had been the only face of the First I don't think it would have worked because there were obviously some characters who were more emotionally tied to her character than others and so it would've been hard for this to impact them, that said I can sort of imagine a little scene where the First/Tara appears to Kennedy (possibly in the Killer In Me) and is taunting her, in a way.

        I prefer the way they went though because using different characters to get to individual characters was harder-hitting than having the same person appear to them, as Wood said "it finds your Achilles heel". Although, I still feel that there should've been a second part to Conversations With Dead People or just a longer episode with Jesse appearing to Xander, Halfrek appearing to Anya, Angelus appearing to Spike, stuff like that.

        I also wish we had seen the First/The Master or the First/Glory appear to Buffy to see how she would've reacted, considering both brought about her death, it would've been interesting to see if they invoked some form of fear.

        So, in answer to the question, I'm glad they didn't have Tara as the only face of the first, but it would've been nice for her to appear.
        sigpic

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        • #5
          Originally posted by kassyopeia View Post
          The only one? I haven't heard that before. He's quoted as saying that he would have liked to keep using the Big Bads more, instead of Buffy and Spike, but it would have been too expensive. Using only one face doesn't make much sense to me, as the shapeshifting ability is certainly one of the more interesting aspects of the incorporeal villain, and very much part of the way it was introduced back in "Amends".
          Oh yeah. Agreed. It would have been weird to have Tara poping up and doing everything, it wouldn't have made sense at all for her to be the only one. She doesn't have the same ties to all the characters. To have Tara talking to Andrew and Jonathan? No...

          But I do wish Glory had more. We only got like 2 seconds of her... Some Glory/Dawn would have been so cool. Or even Glory/Willow... Had Spike not been the series hog, maybe we would have gotten that.

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          • #6
            No, I didn't mean all the time, obviously it would change faces to suit the character for emotional impact ie Faith and The Mayor, Wood and his mother

            I just meant when it was mostly Buffy, as she seemed to be the 'face' of the First for the most part

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            • #7
              I would have loved to see Tara as one of the faces of The First, but maybe appearing to everyone except Willow. I think it would have been interesting for them to maybe think that it was the ghost of Tara who was trying to help them, but then one of the tip-offs she gave them turned out to be dodgy, perhaps leading to some Potential death? Would have been ace but I totally get it about Amber Benson not wanting to come back because it would have upset her fans.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Matt View Post
                Although, I still feel that there should've been a second part to Conversations With Dead People or just a longer episode with Jesse appearing to Xander, Halfrek appearing to Anya, Angelus appearing to Spike, stuff like that.
                I remember reading that "Conversations" did have a Xander segment originally, but that the script turned out way too long and they eventually decided to cut one segment rather than trying to make all of them short enough to fit. Don't recall if they mentioned any details, though. Shame there is no draft version for that episode around...
                I also wish we had seen the First/The Master or the First/Glory appear to Buffy to see how she would've reacted, considering both brought about her death, it would've been interesting to see if they invoked some form of fear.
                Originally posted by DigitalLeonardo View Post
                But I do wish Glory had more. We only got like 2 seconds of her... Some Glory/Dawn would have been so cool. Or even Glory/Willow... Had Spike not been the series hog, maybe we would have gotten that.
                Yeah, it was a bit of a shame that they used up most of their powder in the opener. I mean, the Big Bad sequence was very cool, no doubt about it, but Spike had precious little connection with most of them, so there wasn't much emotional resonance. We did get nice Dru/Spike and Mayor/Faith scenes, but as you both say Master/Glory/Buffy/Dawn scenes could have had a lot of potential (no pun intended).
                Originally posted by Retrograde View Post
                I think it would have been interesting for them to maybe think that it was the ghost of Tara who was trying to help them, but then one of the tip-offs she gave them turned out to be dodgy, perhaps leading to some Potential death?
                I dunno, if the First had chosen that route, rather than go for the emotional hurt, the obvious choice would have been to impersonate Buffy, who everyone was taking orders from, rather than impersonating a ghost whom they wouldn't fully trust all along.
                Last edited by kassyopeia; 05-08-08, 01:41 PM.

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                • #9
                  I actually think I prefer the way it was done. Having Cassie appear instead of Tara plays right to Willow's guilt and self-loathing: it's not bad enough her lover was torn from her the very next day of their reconciliation (and, as we find out in Season Eight, Willow blames herself for putting Tara in danger,) it's her fault that she's unable to see or speak to her directly, even knowing she's right there. Even after she finds out it's not true, the nagging doubts would drag her down. Now, that's painful.
                  "Occasionally, I'm callous and strange..." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"

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                  • #10
                    It was suppossed to be Tara instead of Cassie in "Conversation with Dead People." But Amber Benson wasn't available and also didn't want to be the first. I'm happy that it did not work out. Tara's character would've been tainted, even if it was just her face. (I could seperate the two. If you watched Angel, Fred/Illyria deal, though different situation). Cassie worked. She was never perceived as evil. It would've been a red-flag right away to Willow if it had been Tara. But Tara appearing to Buffy, would've been really good, but not as the First.

                    In regards to Tara being the only face of the first, wouldnt have been as effective. Especially since the basis for who the first was and who it could be was set in "Amends" with Jenny haunting Angel and then also the first changing into all the people he wronged.

                    Someone in the show needed to be good. Tara was probably the only one who didn't do anything that could be perceived as evil (not counting Dawn and Buffy's mom, maybe also Giles)

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                    • #11
                      The fact that it would have shaken up so many fans to see such a fan favourite and loveable character be so twisted and evil is, in my opinion, exactly why we needed her as the First!!! It's supposed to be unnerving, the writers have always said that as an audience we need to feel what the characters are going through, and we needed to feel that. The First was a villain, it was *supposed* to be psychologically crippling, for an audience to be so unnerved to see Tara in such a way, it would have succeeded IMO.

                      I really don't get Amber's hesitation because she didn't want fans to remember Tara that way and that it was to painful, it was meant to be painful, that's the whole point!!

                      ~ Banner by Nina ~

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                        I really don't get Amber's hesitation because she didn't want fans to remember Tara that way and that it was to painful, it was meant to be painful, that's the whole point!!
                        It seems quite inconceivable to me that a villain who is trying to rattle the Scoobies would not choose Tara's shape at times, there's no question that it would be highly effective. (Un)fortunately, The First misses so many good opportunities to wreak havoc that we can just put this down as another proof of its stupidity.

                        I think I do understand why Benson wouldn't want to do it, though. It's not so much about turning evil as such, but that she'd be evil the last time she's seen in the show. I remember reading that Robia LaMorte was very unhappy with "Amends" for the same reason, and only appeared in it because she had agreed to do so before fully understanding what her role in the episode would be like. "The Dark Age" didn't bother her as much because she returned as herself afterwards.
                        Last edited by kassyopeia; 06-08-08, 10:05 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                          The fact that it would have shaken up so many fans to see such a fan favourite and loveable character be so twisted and evil is, in my opinion, exactly why we needed her as the First!!! It's supposed to be unnerving, the writers have always said that as an audience we need to feel what the characters are going through, and we needed to feel that. The First was a villain, it was *supposed* to be psychologically crippling, for an audience to be so unnerved to see Tara in such a way, it would have succeeded IMO.

                          I really don't get Amber's hesitation because she didn't want fans to remember Tara that way and that it was to painful, it was meant to be painful, that's the whole point!!
                          Exactly!!
                          Thats the point I was trying to make...

                          I don't mean having her all the time, the First changes to suit the person, but The First's main face (like it was in Amends with Jenny (she was the main one it used) should of been Tara's rather than Buffy's (as it used her most of the time.. which I think kinda ruined it for me, it was definitely over used as Buffy/Sarah!)

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                          • #14
                            I can understand Amber Benson's reluctance to appear in a false and evil incarnation, and the distaste of many of the fans to see Tara appear to Willow that way. But I wonder if that really would have stained the image of a beloved character in a lasting way. It's just that they had the First take the image of Joyce several times in Season 7, but that never took away from the memories of Buffy's mom, at least not for me. And I still love the episode "Help" and I love to watch Azura Skye play Cassie, even though the last we saw of her was as the First.

                            But whatever, I thought "Conversations With Dead People" was a brilliantly done episode, with or without Tara.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Molly636 View Post
                              But thinking about it, had Amber agreed, I think that that would of been really good, as it would of brought more dimension to the Tara character
                              Had Amber agreed, we'd get a different story.

                              http://movies.ign.com/articles/425/425492p9.html

                              WHEDON: Plan A was to bring Tara back.

                              IGNFF: I heard there were some failed discussions about that.

                              WHEDON: Amber didn't want to do it. She wanted to do other things. I had a whole ? I used to tell people, "Here's what we're going to do. We're going to have her in a couple of flashbacks, keep her alive, and then at the end ..." I had a whole show figured out that ended with the return of Tara. I used to cry every time I pitched it. It was going to be Tara's her one true love, people are going to be blown away, they'll never see it coming ? except on the Internet ? and it's going to be just about the biggest thing. Quite frankly, Amber just didn't want to do it ? which is her decision. I was like, "Okay, the thing where I cried, and we all cried, and I told you about? That's gone. So, instead, we're going to go out and find somebody really hot, and we're going to make this about moving on, because that's the only option we have. I don't want Willow stuck in typical gay celibacy on TV. I'm interested in where her heart will go once she's lost her true love, so let's do that instead." So, you know, hence Kennedy.
                              *le sigh*
                              ________
                              Milf movie
                              Last edited by Moscow Watcher; 18-03-11, 10:55 AM.

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by watcher1006 View Post
                                But I wonder if that really would have stained the image of a beloved character in a lasting way. It's just that they had the First take the image of Joyce several times in Season 7, but that never took away from the memories of Buffy's mom, at least not for me.
                                It's not a fair comparison though, Joyce/First was always quite nice to Buffy, just as Nikki/First and Mayor/First were nice to Wood and Faith. Manipulative, but not horrible. Tara/First would have had a very different impact because it's showing the First at its most cruel. The closest analogy we have is probably Jenny/First in "Amends", and even that isn't anywhere near as bad because there is no strong emotional bond between them. Regardless, I don't think it would tarnish Tara any more than seeing Angelus tarnishes Angel, and after reading the original Willow-segment of "Conversations", it's clear to me how much more amazing the episode could have been.

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                                • #17
                                  I think that having Tara as the First would be shocking and something that I personally wouldn?t like. Just having Tara around would be very disturbing and who knows what kind of reactions Willow could have had.

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                                  • #18
                                    I try to imagine the words they could have had coming out of her mouth if it had been Tara and not Cassie speaking to Willow. The dialogue would undoubtedly have been different and it would have been that much more creepy and horrible because Willow and Tara had truly loved each other.

                                    Thinks of the alternative story as a fanfic - YIKES!

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by watcher1006 View Post
                                      I try to imagine the words they could have had coming out of her mouth if it had been Tara and not Cassie speaking to Willow. The dialogue would undoubtedly have been different and it would have been that much more creepy and horrible because Willow and Tara had truly loved each other.
                                      We know what the words would have been, because the draft script for 'Conversations' written before they knew Amber wasn't coming back is out there on the Internet. Thing is, the script has some initial lovey-dovey stuff between Willow and Tara, instead of starting straight in with Cassie saying "Tara can't talk to you because you're too evil". To that extent, the actual script is probably even more chilling. What would have been disturbing is hearing the following said by Amber instead of by Azura Skye:

                                      TARA/FIRST
                                      The suicide thing was too far, huh?
                                      Huh. You seemed so ripe.

                                      WILLOW
                                      Tell me who you are.

                                      TARA/FIRST
                                      I stand by my opinion, you know. The
                                      world would be better off if you took
                                      a razor blade to your wrists-

                                      WILLOW
                                      Stop-

                                      TARA/FIRST
                                      You know to cut long, right? Up the
                                      arm. I can see it now, candle
                                      light... The Indigo Girls playing.
                                      A picture of your dead girlfriend on
                                      your bloody lap-

                                      WILLOW
                                      Stop. Stop using Tara this way-

                                      TARA/FIRST
                                      (mocking)
                                      Ohhh! You left a big hole! It hurts
                                      so much!

                                      Now Tara/First moves in on Willow, seething with malevolence.

                                      TARA/FIRST (cont'd)
                                      You don't know hurt. This last year,
                                      it's going to seem like cake after
                                      what I put you and your friends
                                      through. I'm not a big fan of easy
                                      death... Fact is, the whole "good
                                      and evil, balancing the scales"
                                      thing? I'm over it. I'm done with
                                      the mortal coil. But, believe me,
                                      I'm going for a big finish.

                                      Willow is chilled to the bone.

                                      WILLOW
                                      From beneath you it devours.

                                      TARA/FIRST
                                      Not it. Me.

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                                      • #20
                                        Well I think that would have been great but I can see the reasoning that if the last appearance of Tara was her being evil it would have harmed her character. Although she was going to be revived at the end of chosen but evidently Amber said no which was smart. I wanted Tara back, Joss wanted Tara back and I think I can safely say that most people here wanted Tara back. But the fact that she never comes back is probably the most emotionally powerful aspect of the series. Having her come back would cheapen everything and while the moment of seeing her back would have been beautiful in the big picture the show would lose a lot of gravity.

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