See it from their prospective

[Sosa lola]

Lately we've been discussing the characters' darkest deeds, and right now I'm gonna give examples to popular bad decisions made by the characters and let you guys try to look at the issue from the character's prospective:

1- Buffy attempting to murder Faith, a human, to save Angel's life.
2- Xander leaving Anya at the altar instead of breaking the wedding earlier.
3- Willow mindraping Tara.
4- Giles poisoning Buffy, and violating her trust, in Helpless.
5- Joyce threatening Buffy not to come back if she left the house in Becoming
6- Faith joining the mayor
7- Spike's attempted rape in Seeing Red
8- Anya wishing Xander never existed and manipulating his friends to curse him horribly

Let's see how you look at these deeds from the guilty characters' prospective.

[kassyopeia]

Good idea, that's a very nice extension of the "Darkest Hours" threads.

1- Buffy attempting to murder Faith, a human, to save Angel's life.
This one is quite obvious, I think. On the one hand, she tells us herself:

BUFFY
No, it's perfect. Angel needs to drain
a Slayer? I'll bring him one.

BUFFY
I can't play kid games anymore. This
is how she wants it.

It's "perfect" because it makes killing Faith doubly helpful (save Angel, neutralize Faith), and it's "how she wants it" because Faith is the one who has been deliberately escalating the conflict from episode to episode. On the other hand, Buffy is certainly not as convinced that she's doing the right as the above is making it sound. Most clearly expressed in her "what have I done" facial expression right after stabbing Faith.

2- Xander leaving Anya at the altar instead of breaking the wedding earlier.
Not so sure. The most favourable interpretation would be that he really believes that his nervousness is all about the wedding and not about the marriage until it's too late.

3- Willow mindraping Tara.
Willow is being both naive and self-centered. Naive because she's going for the quick fix rather than worry about the underlying problem, and self-centered because she accords herself the right to force someone else to be happy. Now that I spell it out, I'm realizing that she's behaving very much like Jasmine, at a much smaller scale.

4- Giles poisoning Buffy, and violating her trust, in Helpless.
Favourable interpretation, he honestly believes that he may be too close to Buffy to judge the merits of the situation objectively. Unfavourable interpretation, he's doing what he's told because he feel obliged to follow orders or is afraid of the consequences of not following orders. I'm strongly leaning towards the unfavourable explanation here, because Giles proves again and again that he's very confident in his own ability to make tough decisions.

5- Joyce threatening Buffy not to come back if she left the house in Becoming
Another obvious one, IMO:

JOYCE
(aghast)
Buffy! You didn't give me any time.
You just dumped this... this thing on
me and expected me to get it. Well -
guess what? Mom's not perfect. I
handled it badly.

Nothing much to add. She just doesn't adapt quickly enough to the fundamental shift of priorities that determine their family life.

7- Spike's attempted rape in Seeing Red
Can't put myself into Spike's place because he doesn't have a soul yet. He acts like he has one most of the time, but in the end he doesn't.

8- Anya wishing Xander never existed and manipulating his friends to curse him horribly
Another combination of factors: She's hurt, so she's lashing out, and she feels like her human life is falling apart, so she's rejecting what she has acquired during that life and returning to her earlier, non-human point of view.

I have to think about Faith for a bit, I've never really tried to stand in her shoes, I guess...

[Boltmaiden]

Fun! Great idea.

1- Buffy attempting to murder Faith, a human, to save Angel's life.
Easy, just refer to kassyopeia' post please

2- Xander leaving Anya at the altar instead of breaking the wedding earlier.
Though he shouldn't have left her to deal with all the guests by herself he finally was honest...with himself and with her. If they had gotten married it would have been more wrong because he would once again be given her false hope and then taking himself out of her life when she had just accomplished a dream she had with him, becoming his wife. Timing was wrong but stll better than if he had went through with it, in a weird way it showed more respect from Xander to Anya then I had seen in a long time. He loved her enough to stop the charade.

3- Willow mindraping Tara.
Uh..not really able to see Willow's thought process here yeah she wanted to make things better but I think it was more for her than Tara even then,so it still reaks of how could you? To pretend you are doing something for someone you love when it is just about making it easier or better for yourself...eww.

4- Giles poisoning Buffy, and violating her trust, in Helpless.
He was afraid of the council and loosing his job. He definately chose wrong on this one.

5- Joyce threatening Buffy not to come back if she left the house in Becoming
Since I have never been in her position I can't really know what it was like but I just feel there were so many other things she could have done or said besides kicking her out that I just can't use shocked and confused as an excuse.

6- Faith joining the mayor
I know she was getting lost but to go to the one person who may be able to destroy Buffy? I guess she ws desperate to feel powerful and in her mind beating Buffy = better than Buffy..some really warped logic.

7- Spike's attempted rape in Seeing Red
Okay this is one time where even though the action is so disturbing, the whole time my heart broke for Spike. I know that probably sounds crazy...he was just so lost and messed up...I could feel Spike's desperation to have Buffy show him that she wanted him. It just reinforced how much the demon can pollute something pure like love. I think James helped to sell it, to show it as more than just a monster attacking...he was lost and thought by being with Buffy it would be better, it just got jumbled and then turned violent. And when Spike realizes what he is doing...oh man just really sad. And the fear and confusion on Buffy's face... The demon in Spike forced his love to be dirty and wrong and it was shown at it's worse during the AR. William might be in there somewhere but it really was like when Spike said "What can I tell you baby..I've always been bad." And i think that scene proves until he starts to really embrace the soul he aquires, he was right.

8- Anya wishing Xander never existed and manipulating his friends to curse him horribly

She was hurt and angry which makes sense and when you feel lost you go back to what you feel make you feel good and powerful since that was taken away from you. You want to source of the pain to stop. Her problem was allowing herself to act on many things she felt, which made her extremely dangerous. Manipulating her friends..no can't justify that part...keep it between you and Xander.

[kassyopeia]

5- Joyce threatening Buffy not to come back if she left the house in Becoming
Since I have never been in her position I can't really know what it was like but I just feel there were so many other things she could have done or said besides kicking her out that I just can't use shocked and confused as an excuse.

But she didn't say what she said with the intention of kicking Buffy out. It was just the ultimate parental threat to get the child to acquiesce. It makes sense to me that she would act that way because she's simply unable to appreciate the gravity of the situation. Up to that moment, Buffy never openly rebelled against her. She messed up (or seemed to, anyway) and ignored Joyce when she wasn't around, but in a direct confrontation she always pretended to submit to Joyce's authority. Given that background, I don't think the thought that Buffy might suddenly cross that line ever entered her head. All the new knowledge, that Buffy had an ethical framework in which many things were much more important than "honour thy elders" and the stakes much higher than being grounded or desinherited, was still very abstract, and her reactions were mostly instinctive.

[Dipstick]

Great idea for a thread.

1- Buffy attempting to murder Faith, a human, to save Angel's life.: This has been pretty well covered. I'll also say that it's a contest between two souled beings. One, despite not being human, uses his soul in a positive way to help save others. The other, a human *Slayer*, ignores her soul to kill people. Buffy's love of Angel was driving her emotions, but I'm sure there was some weighing of who's a more positive force in the universe- Angel or Faith.

Xander leaving Anya

The better question is why Xander proposed to a rude, materialistic mass-murderer who refused to adapt to human customs in the first place. But ultimately, the Xanya marriage never would have worked. The Faux Old Xander just made that visual and clear.

Willow mind-wiping Tara

Unlike the other character entries on this list, this isn't a bad decision where the writers make an effort to get in Willow's head and give her sympathy and a ton of extenuating circumstances. Unlike the other character entries, this isn't an effort to deepen Willow and just make her a more flawed heroine. This is an effort to blackwash Willow so she's first a cartoon villain and then cut out of the show in any meaningful way.

But Willow is my favorite character and I love here just as much as the UPN writers hate her. So I'll do my best to get into her head. Willow has been blessed and cursed with non-confrontational relationships. Her parents are distant and never even grounded her before S3. She's always been the goody-two-shoes perfect student. She's never had the intense fights of Buffy/Xander. Giles never so much as raised his voice to her before Flooded just before. Her relationship with Oz was for the most part, fairy-tale perfect and her relationship with Tara was very quiet until the end of S5. But on the few occasions that Willow had confrontations, they've always ended catastrophically. Her mother burns her at the stake. After finding Oz cheating, Oz tries to rip her apart and then leaves. After Buffy acting like a bitch, she finds herself about be killed to raise the Master. After her first fight with Tara, Tara is then brain-sucked and Willow blames herself.

Willow's never really had a healthy argument. And here comes a situation where Willow says Tara is "always getting down on her." We can see Tara have major issues when Willow does magic- even something harmless like decorations or helpful like a locater spell to find Sweet. Willow doesn't want to have a proper argument with Tara over a proper framework for magic that they can both abide by. That would mean fighting- something "I Statements" Willow hates. So Willow turns to mind-wiping Tara in a desperate effort for Willow to reclaim this idealized Saphic Utopia that she thinks her romance with Tara *should* be, even though it's always been anything but.

Giles drugging Buffy

Favourable interpretation, he honestly believes that he may be too close to Buffy to judge the merits of the situation objectively. Unfavourable interpretation, he's doing what he's told because he feel obliged to follow orders or is afraid of the consequences of not following orders. I'm strongly leaning towards the unfavourable explanation here, because Giles proves again and again that he's very confident in his own ability to make tough decisions.

I actually like your favorable interpretation. ;-) Giles makes his own "in-the-field" decisions because the Council does tell Watchers that they're in control and should make spontaneous tactical decisions when it comes to fighting evil. But the Council has emphasized the importance of the Cruciateum as a test for the Watcher. In this regard, not only does the Slayer have no agency in the CoW's rules, as usual, so does the in-the-field Watcher for a change.

He was also afraid of losing his job and having to abandon Buffy. Which was both selfish and selfless. He loves being a Watcher and he wants to be paid, but he (at least this point) doesn't want to abandon Buffy. And in a twisted way, I think his faith in Buffy also plays a role. For two years and a half, he's seen Buffy kill demons with internal strength, intelligence, and leadership skills. Buffy is almost invincible in his eyes. He thinks if other slayers can pass this test, why not Buffy? If other Slayer/Watcher relationships can come back after this test, than why not his and Buffy's since he loves her like a daughter and is emotionally dependent on her feelings for him. I really sympathize with the G-Man here. I'd even say that I think that Giles leaving Buffy in S6 and how he dumps the General responsiblities on her in S7 is just a gazillion times worse than the Cruciatum in my mind. I guess leaving a twenty-something is more legal and universally okay than drugging a high school girl. But from a character perspective, I like the Giles who does the latter much more than the former. Strange. ;-)

Joyce Throwing Buffy Out

I really get Joyce here. I don't think that Joyce thought that Buffy would take Joyce's bluff. I really think that Joyce thought the threat would just keep Buffy home and away from more trouble or a police arrest in the street. Joyce doesn't throw Buffy out. She bluffs a threat that she didn't want to follow through with and Buffy calls her on it.

That's all for now, folks. ;-)

[kassyopeia]

Willow mind-wiping Tara

[...] Willow has been blessed and cursed with non-confrontational relationships. Her parents are distant and never even grounded her before S3. She's always been the goody-two-shoes perfect student. She's never had the intense fights of Buffy/Xander. Giles never so much as raised his voice to her before Flooded just before. Her relationship with Oz was for the most part, fairy-tale perfect and her relationship with Tara was very quiet until the end of S5. But on the few occasions that Willow had confrontations, they've always ended catastrophically. Her mother burns her at the stake. After finding Oz cheating, Oz tries to rip her apart and then leaves. After Buffy acting like a bitch, she finds herself about be killed to raise the Master. After her first fight with Tara, Tara is then brain-sucked and Willow blames herself.

Willow's never really had a healthy argument. And here comes a situation where Willow says Tara is "always getting down on her." We can see Tara have major issues when Willow does magic- even something harmless like decorations or helpful like a locater spell to find Sweet. Willow doesn't want to have a proper argument with Tara over a proper framework for magic that they can both abide by. That would mean fighting- something "I Statements" Willow hates. So Willow turns to mind-wiping Tara in a desperate effort for Willow to reclaim this idealized Saphic Utopia that she thinks her romance with Tara *should* be, even though it's always been anything but.

You're making an excellent case, I've never really considered that aspect. Yes, given her personaly experiences with the confrontations with loved ones, avoidance would indeed be a very attractive alternative for Willow. Bravo!

Giles drugging Buffy

[...] He was also afraid of losing his job and having to abandon Buffy. Which was both selfish and selfless. He loves being a Watcher and he wants to be paid, but he (at least this point) doesn't want to abandon Buffy.

Oh, I agree, losing his livelihood is not the only thing he's afraid of, and I don't think it's even the main one. But, the way I see it, that doesn't change the ethical situation a lot. The proper thing to do would have been to explain the situation to Buffy and let her make the decision between risking her life and risking the council's wrath.

[helloagain]

Faith joining the mayor
- I guess I'll give this one a try since no one else really has. I think the whole reason Faith joins the Mayor is because no one needed her on the other side. They had the whole Scooby Gang working for them and she was never brought in on that. Considering that she had just killed Trick, who at that point would need her more? The Scoobies or the Mayor? In her mind, the Mayor needed her more and that was important to her.

[Retrograde]

Faith joining the Mayor: I'm very surprised only one person has tackled this so far! helloagain, I agree that the Mayor needed her more, and Faith was not used to being needed. Faith is probably the person I empathise most with on the show. For the best part, she had no support, no back-up, and no place to run if it all got too scary. Buffy had her mother, her friends and Giles. She had a safe haven, her home. And Faith just had her dingy motel room and the memory of her dead watcher.
She could see that she had something to offer to the Mayor, and that he would owe her something after she helped him. She could see that under it all, he was a kindly bumbering man who cared very deeply about something, no matter where on the scale of good and bad that thing belonged (his ascension). He devoted everything to it, and by helping with it, Faith saw that she could be a part of that devotion.

[icecreamkiller]

I don't think I can add anything useful to what everyone's said about Buffy going after Faith or Willow mindraping Tara or Giles drugging Buffy (though I will say that though I do believe it was a mixture of fear of losing the most stable thing he's ever had in his life, which is his job as a Watcher - a position he feels he's good at - it's more of a matter of him truly believing Buffy would overcome the challenge).

Xander: But as for Xander leaving Anya at the altar, I can see the guy's side, though I definitely don't agree with it. He had already kept silent about his doubts because he saw Anya so happy - Xander had had bad experiences with relationships up to that point, and not just romantic ones. He saw one of his best friends turned into a vampire. He fell in love with a girl he used to despise and led a very dysfunctional relationship with her, where though they did honestly care for each other, they spent most of their times slinging insults at one another, which certainly can never be good for anyone's patience or self-esteem. He found himself in love with his childhood best friend and completely wrecked the romance he had going on when he gave in to his desires. His thing for Buffy was never even remotely returned. His entire family disgusted him. You see where I'm getting? With Anya, he'd finally found the girl of his dreams, and though he had doubts about marrying her, since he had never taken on a commitment of that magnitude, he still couldn't bear to tell her they should slow things down when she was so happy for fear of losing her. But when his fears were exploited, he thought it best to just stop the lie right there than let her live what she often claimed would be the most blissful moment of her mortal existence only to spit on it and throw it back in her face by dumping her right after. The most mature thing to do would have been most definitely to tell her about his doubts earlier on, but of course, Xander is human and I think most of us know that when it comes to matters of the heart, the right thing to do is not always the easiest thing to do. However, between leaving right before they got married and leaving after Anya had gone through the entire ceremony she'd been dreaming of, I honestly believe the former was the lesser of two evils.

Joyce: I can definitely see Joyce's side. Buffy had had given her her share of headaches in the past, but Joyce still believed her to be a genuinely good kid. Though we saw very little of Joyce in season 1, season 2 established that she and her daughter shared a very strong bond. When Buffy told her about being the Slayer, she was terrified and confused. Confused because she had never heard of such a thing as a real vampire or superheroes destined to kill them (let alone ever imagining that her own 17-year-old daughter was said superhero), and terrified because the part of her that was willing to accept what Buffy was telling her as the truth was definitely not eager to spend the rest of her life worrying whether her daughter would live past 20. The entire foundation she had built her relationship with Buffy was practically shattered in Joyce's eyes when Buffy revealed herself to be something other than what her mother saw her as, and when Joyce needed to sit down and talk to try to understand the tornado of emotions hitting her at that moment, Buffy said she was too busy. Remember here that it's not plausible to simply throw "can't, have to stop the apocalypse!" at someone who's never fathomed such a thing and expect them to understand it right off the bat. Joyce kicking Buffy out was both a bluff to get Buffy to stay and, perhaps, subconsciously a way of momentarily ridding herself of what was making such a mess in her head.

Faith: I agree with what Retrograde and helloagain have said about Faith needing the Mayor as a father figure, but I'd like to add something which I wrote in another thread:

The way I see it, Faith's elitism and attempted arrogance came from the fact that she never had anyone ever love or praise her, and thus she felt that being the Slayer was the world's way of repaying her for putting her through all the crap it had. For once, she had more power than others, she could do huge, important things - killing vampires and demons was something she enjoyed not because she felt good about making the world safer, but because she felt good about being stronger than even something people feared. The reason she thought she was above humanity was because she had lost faith in it - all the parental and romantic figures in her life had significantly disappointed her. For Faith, people were no more than animals who never contributed anything to the world. As the Slayer, she felt she made much more of a difference than anyone ever could, and as such was not subject to their rules and judgment. When she took a human life, she realized just how far her power could reach; she didn't have to settle for subduing monsters with her powers, she could beat all those people that had screwed her over into submission. She could change her environment, she could be feared - killing a human broke whatever weak inhibitions Faith had in her head and now, she no longer had an issue with physically abusing others with whom she didn't agree. For me, this is best summarized in Choices, when Faith punches Willow. Willow reminds Faith of everything she resents about herself; while she feels that she should be respected for being the Slayer, she's seen how happy Buffy can be with everything that Faith never had (friends, family and a stable life) without abusing her power, and Faith is disgusted with herself for not being able to achieve the same - however, her irrational emotional side takes over as always and she beats Willow into silence, not wanting to face full-on the parts of herself she feels are rotten and instead reverting to the simpler way of looking at things - she's powerful, so she's above everything. "Want, take, have."

While yes, the Mayor as a parental figure played a huge part in it, Faith's desire to explore her powers as the Slayer without boundaries was also a factor.

[kassyopeia]

Xander: [...] However, between leaving right before they got married and leaving after Anya had gone through the entire ceremony she'd been dreaming of, I honestly believe the former was the lesser of two evils.

We should also remember Xander's views on marriage:

XANDER
Anya, I promise, your waiting days
are almost over. I know it's frustrating,
but the way I understand this marriage
thing? It's kind of a forever deal.

Based on that, I don't think marrying someone with the notion of probably getting a divorce when it became convenient was something he ever even considered.

Re Faith, there's another factor, which I haven't entirely thought through but which seems also very important to me: The killing of Finch.
Obviously, to the detached viewer, this was a simple mistake which could have happened just as easily to Buffy or any other Slayer. The healthy way of dealing with it would have been to embrace that fact and get on with life, letting the irrational guilt lessen over time and maybe learn a lesson from it.
However, this is apparently the one thing that Faith is completely unable to do, because she does everything else instead. First, she tries to hide what happened and not care. Then, she tries to blame Buffy and transfer the guilt to her. Finally, she deliberately turns herself evil, because (this is my point now, sorry for the rambling) this will allow her to pretend that she meant to murder Finch.
The question is why she finds it easier to have a pretend-murder than an accident on her conscience. She's certainly not a control freak in the usual sense, she enjoys unpredictable situations:

FAITH
Who said I had a plan? I don't know
how many's down there but I wanna
find out and I'll know when I land
and if you don't come in after me…
I might die!!

But this is a different sort of situation, and has a lot in common with the one we meet her in for the first time: Kakistos kills her watcher, and she has trouble coming to terms with the fact that it wasn't her fault. Instead, she pretends it never happened.

That's all I have at the moment, but I'm pretty sure there's a deeper level to this that I'm missing.

[Sosa lola]

2- Xander leaving Anya at the altar instead of breaking the wedding earlier.

I believe Xander was going to marry Anya, even with the doubts. I think the visions played a big part in his choice not to marry her. Those visions were taken from Xander's nightmares and fears, and he was living them -not just seeing them- judging by how he didn't change at all in the visions. And let's not forget he believed that those visions were real until he came back and Anya told him they weren't. Five minutes after that, he was supposed to calm down and start all over. Xander, in the end, is just human. A 21 year old boy. The glance he cast his parents fighting before he told Anya, "I'm sorry. I don't wanna hurt you. Not that way." is very telling.

3- Willow mindraping Tara.

Willow is not doing it because she hates Tara and wants her to suffer. She's doing it because she loves Tara, wants them to stop fighting, and wants to keep Tara around. She's taking the easy way out and thinks that their fight doesn't deserve all that headache.

5- Joyce threatening Buffy not to come back if she left the house in Becoming

Joyce's line is something so many parents use to keep their children from leaving the house and it always works. We have to sympathize with the woman, she just learned that he daughter was this superhero who kills demons, that's a big blow and Buffy expected Joyce to take it that easily? Of course, she won't. None of us want our daughters to fight evil for the safety of the world, we want them normal and safe at home.

[kassyopeia]

Buffy expected Joyce to take it that easily?

Nah, I don't think Buffy did, and I don't see Buffy blaming Joyce for that outburst. In "Becoming", Buffy does the only thing she can do by walking away and aborting the argument at that point, and in "Dead Man's Party" everyone says a lot of things that they don't really mean.

[Boltmaiden]

But she didn't say what she said with the intention of kicking Buffy out. It was just the ultimate parental threat to get the child to acquiesce. It makes sense to me that she would act that way because she's simply unable to appreciate the gravity of the situation. Up to that moment, Buffy never openly rebelled against her. She messed up (or seemed to, anyway) and ignored Joyce when she wasn't around, but in a direct confrontation she always pretended to submit to Joyce's authority. Given that background, I don't think the thought that Buffy might suddenly cross that line ever entered her head. All the new knowledge, that Buffy had an ethical framework in which many things were much more important than "honour thy elders" and the stakes much higher than being grounded or desinherited, was still very abstract, and her reactions were mostly instinctive.

Yeah I do get it, I guess I just always had a hard time that after all the weird occurances that had been going on for years that it wouldn't have been like a "Eureka!" moment when Buffy told her the truth. Yes she was in denial as she always had been but again if I just feel if I had been manipulated like Joyce had (Ted, Gingerbread) I just felt like her reaction was slightly shocking. It is a normal reaction absolutely, and she had been drinking which seems to bring out a nastier side in Joyce so yeah her "kicking Buffy" out is not an outside the box moment. I guess sometimes it is hard for me to back away from the situation because we have seen so much from Buffy's perspective, I have a hard time trying to look at all the events with not all the facts and a normal point of view. And that is my flaw not Joyce's

[kassyopeia]

I guess I just always had a hard time that after all the weird occurances that had been going on for years that it wouldn't have been like a "Eureka!" moment when Buffy told her the truth.

Or, to stay in the 'verse, a "No, actually, it explains a lot" moment.

Yeah, that's a very valid point, but Joyce shares her state of denial with the rest of Sunnydale. Personally, I think the Mayor has been spiking the water supply for the last century to keep the inhabitants docile and ignorant.

ETA: Ohhh, maybe that was what the tribute in "Band Candy" was all about. Sewers, water supply, not far fetched at all!

[miscjj06]

7- Spike's attempted rape in Seeing Red...the whole time my heart broke for Spike. I know that probably sounds crazy...he was just so lost and messed up...I could feel Spike's desperation to have Buffy show him that she wanted him.

I love your point. Spike is in many ways his own victim almost as much as Buffy is his victim. By failing to make her love him he is tourturing himself. By hurting her and scaring her he is tourturing himself. His pain mingles with Buffy's fear, both permeating the episoide. He never really meant to hurt her, let alone rape her. All he wanted was for her to want him the way he wanted her. It is the realization of what he has attempted to do that sends him out into the world searching for the soul he lost so long ago.

[Daihrin]

I love your point. Spike is in many ways his own victim almost as much as Buffy is his victim. By failing to make her love him he is tourturing himself. By hurting her and scaring her he is tourturing himself. His pain mingles with Buffy's fear, both permeating the episoide. He never really meant to hurt her, let alone rape her. All he wanted was for her to want him the way he wanted her. It is the realization of what he has attempted to do that sends him out into the world searching for the soul he lost so long ago.

I think it's interesting that Spike kept his human face on throughout the scene. That's very telling to me, and, despite what one of the writers said of their intentions otherwise, I think it made Spike seem more human than monster. I seem to recall in a commentary somewhere that by keeping Spike in human-face they were intending to force the audience to see (like in "As You Were") that Spike really was a monster, no matter what he looked like from Buffy's eyes. I don't see that as having worked... My shrink friend and I have always liked Spike because the writers try so hard to make him evil that he becomes one of the most human characters in the 'verse.