Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Their Darkest Hours, Part II

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Their Darkest Hours, Part II

    Okay, poll time. If you're not sure what this is about, have a look at Part I.

    I've harvested the lists and collated the suggestions for each character. Included here are only those characters for whom there were considerable differences in opinion.

    I hope the format is clear enough - you're supposed to pick one "darkest hour" for each character. If your personal favourite isn't present, please do still vote, choosing the one you think is darker. Feel free but not obliged to discuss your choices.

    ps: "p'ly" = "particularly", character limit got in the way

    pps: "Major" was supposed to read "Mayor", obviously. Sorry about that.
    257
    [b]Buffy[/b] - Being unwilling to consider sacrificing Dawn for the world ("The Gift")
    1.95%
    5
    [b]Buffy[/b] - Abusing Spike physically and emotionally (season 6, season 5 to a lesser degree)
    7.39%
    19
    [b]Buffy[/b] - Cutting herself off from her friends (season 6, season 7 to a lesser degree)
    3.11%
    8
    [b]Buffy[/b] - Being too ruthless a leader (season 7, p'ly "Get It Done"/"Lies My Parents Told Me")
    4.67%
    12
    [b]Giles[/b] - Poisoning Buffy, and violating her trust, for the Cruciamentum ("Helpless")
    7.39%
    19
    [b]Giles[/b] - Leaving Buffy when she was needy ("Tabula Rasa")
    2.72%
    7
    [b]Giles[/b] - Conspiring with Wood to kill Spike behind Buffy's back ("Lies My Parents Told Me")
    5.06%
    13
    [b]Willow[/b] - Mindraping Tara, after what Glory put Tara through ("All The Way"/"Tabula Rasa")
    9.73%
    25
    [b]Willow[/b] - Letting herself become addicted to magic (season 6)
    5.06%
    13
    [b]Xander[/b] - Being jealously hostile towards Angel and Buffy (seasons 1-3, p'ly "Revelations")
    4.67%
    12
    [b]Xander[/b] - Not breaking off his engagement to Anya earlier ("The Gift" thru "Hell's Bells")
    10.51%
    27
    [b]Dawn[/b] - Wanting to raise Joyce from the dead ("Forever")
    4.28%
    11
    [b]Dawn[/b] - Being a self-involved brat (seasons 5 and 6)
    6.23%
    16
    [b]Joyce[/b] - Telling Buffy to "not even think about coming back" ("Becoming, Part 2")
    8.17%
    21
    [b]Joyce[/b] - Not showing more understanding when Buffy does come back ("Dead Man's Party")
    4.28%
    11
    [b]Faith[/b] - Dealing badly with the aftermath of killing Finch ("Bad Girls" & "Consequences")
    2.33%
    6
    [b]Faith[/b] - Joining the Major ("Consequences" thru "Graduation Day")
    8.56%
    22
    [b]Faith[/b] - Taking revenge on Buffy for stabbing her ("This Year's Girl" & "Who Are You")
    3.89%
    10
    kassyopeia
    Cutting Room Florist
    Last edited by kassyopeia; 30-07-08, 01:23 PM.

  • #2
    I'll briefly explain my choices below each one I made

    Buffy - Being too ruthless a leader (season 7, p'ly "Get It Done"/"Lies My Parents Told Me")

    If I'd have a choice I would have said Buffy throughout season eight so far, but as it wasn't I've picked her ruthlessness as a leader throughout Lies My Parents Told Me. Telling Wood she'd allow Spike to murder him was frankly, in my opinion, one of the worst things she could have said. I don't believe it was about 'the mission' at all. If it had been she'd have eliminated Spike due to the trigger, or worked severely hard to get rid of his trigger instead of ignoring it. This was about her feelings, it was complete double standards towards Wood and goes against everything she's stood for regarding humans who can be obtained in other ways, since the series.

    My second choice would have been her period in season six, not so much necessarily for her treament of Spike but for Dead Things which she actually laughs for a moment as Spike jokes about a decorator he murdered. I know Nina shares my "WTF Buffy!?" towards that moment.

    Giles - Poisoning Buffy, and violating her trust, for the Cruciamentum ("Helpless")

    I picked this one because it was Giles following protocol, without any real great benefit for Buffy. I don't believe it was dark in what he did in Tabula Rasa and I can really understand where was coming from in Lies My Parents Told Me even if it was wrong, he had a point. But in Helpless he just did a really bad thing, that yes he was really sorry for and yes it was revealed he really did have a "father's love" for Buffy, but it was wrong. He knew that, it was his darkest hour IMO.

    Willow - Letting herself become addicted to magic (season 6)

    I nearly picked mind raping Tara, but I chose against it because I consider the option I chose above, to include her murder of Warren, attempted murder of Dawn, attack on Buffy and Giles and plot to destroy the world in a broad sense. They were all her darkest hours IMO, physically hurting her loved ones, killing a man no matter how disgusting he was, and attempting to kill everyone. Can't get much darker than that

    Xander - Being jealously hostile towards Angel and Buffy (seasons 1-3, p'ly "Revelations")

    Xander was the hardest for me. I didn't find what he did to Anya "dark" I just felt sorry for both of them and ultimately believe he made the right choice. And I wouldn't necessarily agree with him being hostile towards Angel as "dark" even if I don't really agree with it a lot of the time. But Revelations I found very dark. He intentionally didn't explain everything to Faith and was willing to take part in a plot to have *ensouled* Angel murdered behind Buffy's back, he only stopped because he found Giles, and as he said "Giles could die." I felt his actions there were probably his darkest in the series. That or his "sexy" comment regarding Buffy's robbery in A Beautiful Sunset.

    Dawn - Being a self-involved brat (seasons 5 and 6)

    I picked this because during this time was All the Way, when if one actually thinks about it, Dawn did a really bad thing. She got off on going into an elderly mans house and stealing from him. She was giggling at the thought of the guy she liked stealing his wallet from the man, even after she had heard the sounds of a struggle, indicating heavily the guy had hit the elderly old man or physically manoeuvred him in some way. And that's not cool, Dawn was really pretty horrible in that episode.


    Joyce - Telling Buffy to "not even think about coming back" ("Becoming, Part 2")

    Honestly, I didn't find either situations for Joyce particularly "dark." I chose this one simply because it was probably the most blunt and "nasty" thing she's said, but it was in the heat of the moment and I completely understand it so I in no way hold it against her.


    Faith - Joining the Major ("Consequences" thru "Graduation Day")

    I picked this period in Faith's life because not only was she trying to hurt Buffy but she was actively deceiving her as well. And if one thinks about the gravity of what she attempted to do in Enemies, it's quite horrifying. Not only did she try and remove Angel's soul, knowing all to well the risks, not only did she try and steal Buffy's boyfriend, but she chained Buffy up and planned to torture and kill her. And why? Because she was jealous of Buffy, you here it in her speech when she angrily recites all the things Buffy has. Petty jealousy led Faith to attempt to "torture, maim and kill" a girl who'd offered to help her and give her a second chance only a couple of weeks earlier. It was a very dark period in her life.

    ~ Banner by Nina ~

    Comment


    • #3
      It's really hard for me to vote on any of these because I don't believe a lot of those moments are necessarily "dark". I understood where all the characters were coming from when they acted this way.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
        If I'd have a choice I would have said Buffy throughout season eight so far
        Yes, I chose to limit the choices to the TV series' timeframe for simplicity, on both ends. No season 8, no Ripper, no Fanged Four flashbacks.
        I nearly picked mind raping Tara, but I chose against it because I consider the option I chose above, to include her murder of Warren, attempted murder of Dawn, attack on Buffy and Giles and plot to destroy the world in a broad sense.
        Also yes, that's the way I intended it. Considering these moments on their own is problematical because we don't know in how far Willow is in control of the magic and in how far the magic is in control of her, but becoming addicted in the first place, in spite of the numerous warnings she was given, was Willow's conscious choice.

        Comment


        • #5
          I am very surprised that there is no mention of the Season 2 opener, When She Was Bad.This really was Buffy at her worst. Her dance with Xander in the Bronze was highly erotic and disturbing.She was manipulating Xander without mercy, and torturing Willow. Even Cordelia was outraged. Moreover, the official excuse, that she was still stressed out over her fight with the Master, does not actually make sense. It was a nasty episode in other ways. Buffy was clearly malevolent, but the scoobies were not allowed to keep any dignity.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Michael View Post
            I am very surprised that there is no mention of the Season 2 opener, When She Was Bad.
            I was too. I'm guessing people don't think of it as all that bad because everything's back to normal, no hard feelings, by the end of the episode?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Michael View Post
              I am very surprised that there is no mention of the Season 2 opener, When She Was Bad.This really was Buffy at her worst. Her dance with Xander in the Bronze was highly erotic and disturbing.She was manipulating Xander without mercy, and torturing Willow. Even Cordelia was outraged. Moreover, the official excuse, that she was still stressed out over her fight with the Master, does not actually make sense. It was a nasty episode in other ways. Buffy was clearly malevolent, but the scoobies were not allowed to keep any dignity.
              I never quite got the outrage about Buffy's behaviour. But, it was a small town... it just looked like an average night out for a teenage girl having a bit of an emotional wibble to me.

              Originally posted by kassyopeia View Post
              I was too. I'm guessing people don't think of it as all that bad because everything's back to normal, no hard feelings, by the end of the episode?
              There's definitely that. But I also just don't see why it's such appalling behaviour. It leads to her friends getting into trouble, but that's not something she did intentionally. Being a bit of a ho-bag (sorry, been watching too much How I met your mother) isn't exactly comparable with murder! (trying to kill Faith is still my number one Bad Buffy moment).
              Wolfie Gilmore
              Sad Castiel
              Last edited by Wolfie Gilmore; 30-07-08, 06:23 PM.


              -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

              Comment


              • #8
                I was just surprised that it was not mentioned. Buffy gets attacked for a lot of things where she was not to much blame in Seasons 6 and 7. Here she was being undeniably nasty,albeit in a petty way. Why have her petty minded detractors ignored it? I agree with Wolfie about the attempted murder of Faith in Graduation Day Part One.You cannot leave people to be governed only by their conscience.

                Willow's decision to bring back Buffy from the dead was the all time worst decision within BtVS, I would say. The evil consequences have never stopped coming.
                Michael
                Hellmouth Tourist
                Last edited by Michael; 30-07-08, 07:22 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Michael View Post
                  I was just surprised that it was not mentioned. Buffy gets attacked for a lot of things where she was not to much blame in Seasons 6 and 7.
                  True. I think sometimes people like Buffy to be more "bubbly", and judge her more harshly in the seasons where she isn't, perhaps?

                  I agree with Wolfie about the attempted murder of Faith in Graduation Day Part One.You cannot leave people to be governed only by their conscience.
                  Well, it's fine to be governed by your conscience... but you need a better conscience, Buffy my lass! Well, there she does.


                  -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Michael View Post
                    I was just surprised that it was not mentioned.
                    Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
                    It leads to her friends getting into trouble, but that's not something she did intentionally.
                    I meant precisely what Michael meant - don't think it belongs on the list myself, but am surprised nobody else thinks so either. Maybe another factor that plays a role is that her bitchyness redeems itself, in a way? She gets her friends into trouble by being a bitch to them, and then she gets them out of trouble by being a bitch to the vampires (torturing the girl at the Bronze)?
                    Originally posted by Michael View Post
                    Willow's decision to bring back Buffy from the dead was the all time worst decision within BtVS, I would say. The evil consequences have never stopped coming.
                    Hmmm. If one accepts their claim that they believe Buffy to likely be trapped in a demon dimension, which seems reasonable to me considering Angel's similar "death", there isn't much blame to bestow for that one though.
                    Also, I find it hard to blame the characters for anything that's as essential to the storyline as that, even though this is very bad reasoning.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Yeah I can see where Willow was coming from with her attempt to bring Buffy back as well. She knew it was against all the "laws of nature" but I can see her POV. Not only was there a strong case to suggest that Buffy could have been trapped in a Hell dimension like Angel had been, but she just wanted to have her friend back. As humans, we mostly view death as a negative thing, we try our hardest to prevent it. It's human nature for Willow to think Buffy would be happy to be alive again and not wishing she was still dead, because by our nature our instinct is to survive.

                      ~ Banner by Nina ~

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by kassyopeia View Post
                        I meant precisely what Michael meant - don't think it belongs on the list myself, but am surprised nobody else thinks so either. Maybe another factor that plays a role is that her bitchyness redeems itself, in a way? She gets her friends into trouble by being a bitch to them, and then she gets them out of trouble by being a bitch to the vampires (torturing the girl at the Bronze)?
                        Ah, gotcha.

                        Sometimes, being a Bitch saves the day (as in Cordy triumphing over that old lady ghost in Rm w/a view (or however it's spelled)


                        -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I didn't find anything Dawn had done worthy of voting for. She's never done anything truly dark or wrong, IMO. Maybe the thieving, but mostly nah.

                          I was surprised to see Buffy choosing to protect Dawn was included. I admired her single-minded and heroic resolve. The true and iconic heroes are often heroes so complete that they cut past utilitarianism with stubborn defiance, and Buffy did just that.
                          sigpic
                          Banner by LRae12

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                            I didn't find anything Dawn had done worthy of voting for. She's never done anything truly dark or wrong, IMO. Maybe the thieving, but mostly nah.
                            Many voters seem to agree, Dawn is getting a lot more abstentions than the other character. I'm a bit surprised by that, I thought Dawn did a lot of things that were as "dark" as Joyce's worst moments.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Yeah I agree. I'm surprised I'm the only who's angry about her stealing from an elderly man, I thought that'd have kicked up a bit more of a fuss but generally it seems to go unnoticed. Kind of like how Connor opts to bring back Fred's scalp in Ats season 4, and then later on we become aware than unlike everyone else he wasn't under Jasmine's spell, meaning he's liable for all the things he stated and did. It barley gets noticed, it's one of the reasons I dislike his character that year.

                              ~ Banner by Nina ~

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Giles poisoning Buffy in "Helpless". This was the first glimpse of a Giles still being traditional to some of the conventions of the Council. He had a father/daughter relationship and he saw that the Slayer was fighting hard but still, he believed that in some of the times, he had to do what he believed was for the greater good, even if he thought wrong.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by buffyholic View Post
                                  He had a father/daughter relationship and he saw that the Slayer was fighting hard but still, he believed that in some of the times, he had to do what he believed was for the greater good, even if he thought wrong.
                                  I wish I could believe that. But I'm getting the strong impression that he doesn't believe it's for the greater good at all, but that he's simply doing what he's told because he doesn't want to (dare to?) go against the council at that point.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                                    Yeah I agree. I'm surprised I'm the only who's angry about her stealing from an elderly man, I thought that'd have kicked up a bit more of a fuss but generally it seems to go unnoticed. Kind of like how Connor opts to bring back Fred's scalp in Ats season 4, and then later on we become aware than unlike everyone else he wasn't under Jasmine's spell, meaning he's liable for all the things he stated and did. It barley gets noticed, it's one of the reasons I dislike his character that year.
                                    You are absolutely not the only one, I agree with you completely. And her actions do not go unnoticed by me. In the other thread (darkest hour part 1)I talked about her selfish behavior and her lack of empathy...and honestly with everything thing she had seen and everything her sister did for her I just thought she was disgusting in her actions...especially season 6. Uh and don't even get me started on Connor

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      My choices:
                                      Buffy - too ruthless in season 7. I hated the fact that she said she would sacrifice Dawn, that she would sacrifice anyone...I felt like it invalidated the heroic nature of her decision to protect Dawn no matter what in The Gift, as KoC was describing.

                                      However if it was listed I might have chosen Buffy's decision to kill faith in s3...but it would have been a close call.

                                      Willow: mind raping Tara. I thought that that storyline was the Willow-addicted-to-magic plotline at its best. Willow had complete disregard for everyone around her, she only saw the world through magic and how she could use magic to make things easier for herself...and she doesn't think of tara at all or how the spell would affect her, especially considering her history with glory.

                                      I get people's points about the whole magic addiction thing...but to me, that plot never quite worked, so the mindrape feels more authentic and real. In a bad way!

                                      Giles: I can't actually remember what I picked now, but I totally think his actions in s8 are by far his darkest, so I can't quite make a distinction between the other options...

                                      Xander: leaving Anya at the alter. I like how this was phrased, that he should have called it of earlier...and I agree, that's what he should have done. But I still think that if he got to the wedding day and wasn't sure, he should have married the poor girl and broken up with her afterwards! You do NOT leave people at the alter, you just don't. It's like breaking up with someone on their birthday, which also happens to be valentines day, which also happens to be your anniversary, TIMES A THOUSAND!
                                      Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                                      Yeah I agree. I'm surprised I'm the only who's angry about her stealing from an elderly man, I thought that'd have kicked up a bit more of a fuss but generally it seems to go unnoticed. Kind of like how Connor opts to bring back Fred's scalp in Ats season 4, and then later on we become aware than unlike everyone else he wasn't under Jasmine's spell, meaning he's liable for all the things he stated and did. It barley gets noticed, it's one of the reasons I dislike his character that year.
                                      I agree with you! I'd say that's Dawn's darkest moment...but I abstained because I didn't think that was included.


                                      re the discussion about Willow's decision to resurrect Buffy:
                                      Originally posted by kassyopeia View Post
                                      Hmmm. If one accepts their claim that they believe Buffy to likely be trapped in a demon dimension, which seems reasonable to me considering Angel's similar "death", there isn't much blame to bestow for that one though.Also, I find it hard to blame the characters for anything that's as essential to the storyline as that, even though this is very bad reasoning.
                                      I never really thought there was any piece of evidence to justify Willow's claim that Buffy might be in a hell dimension. I mean, I suppose we don't know everything about how these places work, but every time we've seen someone sent to a hell dimension (angel, Buffy in Anne, Connor and what'shisface on Angel) their bodies go with them. In the Gift, Buffy's body was there and she was just dead. Imo, this hell dimension idea was just a justification that willow came up with, probably subconsciously, because she couldn't accept Buffy's death. That's one of the reasons that I've always loved the title Bargaining...because Willow especially, but also Xander, never went through the stages of grief. They got stuck on the Bargaining step, and never got past it. In someways, this was one of the darkest moments for willow (the scene with the deer is especially disturbing) but I don't think it quite matches up to the other stuff.
                                      sigpic

                                      http://buffysmom.wordpress.com/

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by litzie View Post
                                        However if it was listed I might have chosen Buffy's decision to kill faith in s3...but it would have been a close call.
                                        Yes, I should have included that option. I was just going off the lists in the other thread and nobody mentioned it in theirs, but I shouldn't have completely ignored the second half of that thread. Sorry.
                                        Xander: leaving Anya at the alter. I like how this was phrased, that he should have called it of earlier...
                                        Thanks, I figured that's what most people meant.
                                        I agree with you! I'd say that's Dawn's darkest moment...but I abstained because I didn't think that was included.
                                        Awww, "brat" was supposed to cover that.
                                        every time we've seen someone sent to a hell dimension (angel, Buffy in Anne, Connor and what'shisface on Angel) their bodies go with them. In the Gift, Buffy's body was there and she was just dead.
                                        Good point, I didn't consider that, actually. Still, we know that she died within the portal, so the idea that her soul (or whatever) was trapped doesn't seem entirely farfetched either.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X