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  • the FIRST

    HELLO ALL

    ive been thinking...
    everyone says the reason the first chose season seven to rise is due to buffys ressurection in season six causeing an error in the slayer line

    but personally i would belive that the first had been working up to the events since prophecy girl, due to the creation of 2 slayers at the same time.
    this seems like a far larger "error" in the slayer line than buffys 2nd death as no new slayer was created as the slayer line lay with faith, yet buffy still said in season 7 that the potentuals would be called if she died(sorry of topic:P) but had the first been conspirieing against the slayer line since buffys death by the master and the creation of kendra, that would make more sence about its apperance in season 3's "amends"

    am i mad:P
    thanks for reading

  • #2
    btw, i'm recanting on my thought that the first might be a vain pure demon. beljoxa's eye states it was from before the earth was created. that means god status... but apparently one who has been rendered quite impotent in the dimension beyond its harbingers and minions like caleb.

    i got the impression that the first needed buffy to die to have another chance, which is why it brought back angel to lose his soul and kill buffy (there is no proof that jasmine brought back angel--it is stated that the first's harbingers DID have that power). beljoxa's eye gives giles the impression that buffy's resurrection messing up the balance gave the first an opportunity to act. perhaps then, the first wanted angelus to kill buffy and suspected one of her friends would then try to resurrect her? perhaps the first knew buffy was slated to die and be resurrected again, and wanted to speed up the process by a few years?

    if any slayer's death brought forth a new slayer, there should have been 3 slayers--and possibly a 4th if you think buffy's flatlining in villains was more than wonky medical equipment. more likely, this is buffy not having a clue how the slayer line worked or thinking too much of herself. faith is actually the current slayer and the only one the first would actually need to keep alive until the potentials were gone.

    buffy is only *a* slayer now. faith is *the* slayer.

    "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
    "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post
      btw, i'm recanting on my thought that the first might be a vain pure demon. beljoxa's eye states it was from before the earth was created. that means god status... but apparently one who has been rendered quite impotent in the dimension beyond its harbingers and minions like caleb.

      i got the impression that the first needed buffy to die to have another chance, which is why it brought back angel to lose his soul and kill buffy (there is no proof that jasmine brought back angel--it is stated that the first's harbingers DID have that power). beljoxa's eye gives giles the impression that buffy's resurrection messing up the balance gave the first an opportunity to act. perhaps then, the first wanted angelus to kill buffy and suspected one of her friends would then try to resurrect her? perhaps the first knew buffy was slated to die and be resurrected again, and wanted to speed up the process by a few years?



      if any slayer's death brought forth a new slayer, there should have been 3 slayers--and possibly a 4th if you think buffy's flatlining in villains was more than wonky medical equipment. more likely, this is buffy not having a clue how the slayer line worked or thinking too much of herself. faith is actually the current slayer and the only one the first would actually need to keep alive until the potentials were gone.

      buffy is only *a* slayer now. faith is *the* slayer.
      i see what you mean so the first wanted buffy out of the way while it built up its defences, and with faith at that time rotting away in jail there was no army for good to get in its way, and this would have happened earlier in season 3 if angel sucumbed to the firsts plan, which could also mean that the first is partialy responsible for manipulating events to send faith psycho

      willows "nice girl, not to bright" line kinda comes to mind with her not knowing how the slayer line works lol:P

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      • #4
        speaking of which... why did the first hire debbie (a.k.a. patrice's doppelg?nger) to kill faith in prison with the bringer knife? faith was the one the first needed to stay alive until the potentials were killed off, not buffy.

        sounds like there was a hole in the first's knowledge of how the slayer line worked as well.

        "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
        "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

        Comment


        • #5
          One thing that I wodnered after the failed killing of Faith in prison was. Did the First want Faith dead so it could groom the new slayer as its minion? Otherwise what purpose would killing Faith do except make a new slayer. Faith was the one that needed to be kept alive till the end and then killed not Buffy.

          Comment


          • #6
            There's one thing I always wondered *And this is off topic* Since Buffy died in "The Gift," shouldn't yet another slayer been called? Kendra was called after Buffy died in "Prophecy Girl" and when Kendra died, Faith was called. So when Buffy died *again* shouldn't another slayer had been called, or not? If not, then why? I'm just confused on that.

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            • #7
              [The First] cannot be fought, it cannot be killed. The First Evil has been and always will be. Since before the universe was born, long after there is nothing else, it will go on.

              I'm sorry NileQT87 but your speculation on the First merely being a pure demon isn't supported anywhere except by Anya and she is contradicted by everyone else.

              Also, the First isn't "impoetent". It's a concept and force in the Buffyverse across all dimensions and existence. It has no true or one form to do anything by itself because it exists in everything simultaneously.

              Comment


              • #8
                i think you didn't read some of my later ramblings.

                i already realized that it wasn't a pure demon because of the "since before the universe was born" part.

                and the first is impotent, because the first has entire conversations with caleb about touching, killing, etc... and the fact that it can't. there was a reason everyone started attacking it back with calling it a taunter because it couldn't do anything other than take the impotent and non-corporeal forms of dead people and taunt.

                its whole purpose was tilting the scales back to evil so it could gain enough power to be able to become corporeal... and then there's the fact that it's big plan was really just to let the hellmouth out into the world to help tilt that scale in its favor. the fact that most of the creatures trying to do that are after bringing the old ones back is why i had originally thought it might be an old one.

                however, the first is perhaps more in-line with jasmine and glorificus--also before-the-world types. and jasmine strikes me as being probably the earliest of the bunch due to the fact that this specific group of ptbs seem to not consider themselves good or evil. jasmine wasn't good or evil--she was beyond those labels. and she was absolutely correct that more people would be saved than she would kill--it was just a marxist utopia (why do you think so many people have thought it was a good idea?) without freedom of choice (which kills it and makes it an evil dictatorship every time).

                i see the first evil as perhaps a fallen power, perhaps (lucifer-style minus going from angel to demon). perhaps the first one who considered itself purely malevolent, rather than above such labels.

                and yeah, the first has definitely been banished from the plane of existence--because it actually does want to become corporeal. it's impotent and buffy & co. stopped being afraid of it when they realized that taunting was all it was left with being able to do.
                NileQT87
                The Dark Avenger
                Last edited by NileQT87; 21-06-08, 04:09 AM.

                "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

                Comment


                • #9
                  I thought the Powers-That-Be were just beings eho existed in this world before the Old Ones. The Old Ones came and the Powers went to other dimensions.
                  The First predates the world itself according to the quote by the demon eye oracle thing.

                  Also the First isn't banished because evil can't be conquered; only temporarily halted.

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                  • #10
                    nightmares are in the minds of people because they angered something to give them such a fate. they used to walk around in plain sight rather than in the minds of people. we know that in illyria's time, things that we know as being in our hearts and minds were literal beings. the first is such a philosophical concept that has a physical presence (and indeed a physical manifestation) in the jossverse. at some point, these literal beings who originated these philosophical ideas were driven into an incorporeal status by angering someone--only able to affect in peoples' minds. that's banishment status.

                    and jasmine predates the world too--she was made in the "inferno of creation".

                    The First: You’re the only man strong enough to be my vessel. And I know you feel me but… I know why they grab at each other. To feel. I want to feel. I want to wrap my hands around an innocent neck and feel it crack.
                    the first evil is sin... but i would think you'd have to have beings who see a difference between good and evil before you have sin. jasmine is an example of such a being that is above the idea of there even being such absolutes as good and evil.

                    it's a fact that while the first evil is pretty much the original sin, it can't do anything physically other than taunt. it does have an actual form (but it's incorporeal) because we've seen it. perhaps its goal is to take over caleb's body so it can feel things, but we also know that it needs evil to tip the scale over good to arise. the goal remains corporeal touch. the first isn't satisfied with taunting people into sin and evil.

                    and clearly--i'd say wolfram & hart, whose entire organization is built on people self-destructing themselves and humanity working for them, is not a big fan of competition--we saw that with jasmine and we saw that when either they or lindsey provided the amulet to shut down the first's hellmouth plan. jasmine took away people's freedom of choice (which was working for them) and if the first was what it says, it was helping them imbue people with sinful feelings. more likely, it was because the first wanted corporeal form, which means direct physical power in the world. the first was no longer satisfied with sinful taunting.
                    NileQT87
                    The Dark Avenger
                    Last edited by NileQT87; 21-06-08, 08:03 AM.

                    "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                    "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The inferno of creation is horribly vague....creation of what? The universe? The First existed before that.

                      Also there is no being "beyond" good and evil. Good and evil are just fancy words for right and wrong. Any non-psychologically damaged mind knows that there is right and there is wrong. You may have horribly skewed views on what is right and wrong but it's very much there. It's not something you can just think or be passed.

                      If you think saying something means it's true, Caleb also says he's beyond the concept of God...does that mean there is no God? We know Whedon doesn't think there's one in real life but the jury is still out on whether God exists in the Buffyverse.

                      My point is, just because Jasmine thinks something doesn't mean it's true.

                      As far as I'm aware, The First is the oldest known entity in the Buffyverse.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        the first evil never claims it was the first of everything. it only claims it was the first EVIL.

                        jasmine doesn't think in such absolutes as good and evil, because she probably was before those concepts, which is why she doesn't think what she is doing is good or evil.

                        "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                        "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Just because she thinks she's not doing evil doesn't mean a whole lot.
                          Again, thinking you are beyond something doesn't qual actually being beyond it.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Though from an anthropological, psychological stand-point one might say that good and evil originated as a way to preserve social structures.Most of our basic,moral mores are based on the need to strengthen society. Good and evil, conceptually represent psychological boundaries that allow us as individuals to form a sense of identity, a purpose, a grounded state where things mean something which is why Fundamental Christians hate Atheists and Hard-Core Atheists hate christians. Read Jean-Paul Sartre or someone existential to get a better idea of what I'm talking about.

                            Also, note that I do like the not-killing that comes with the concept of good and evil as well as the not-stealing and not-raping but I enjoy debates about the nature of Good and evil, and Nikkolas is right about a person's beliefs about something not qualifying as actual. I don't believe in gravity but I can't seem to get my float on. That does also mean that believing in good and evil doesn't necessitate their existence, replace the not floating with the not finding Atlantis and you'll get a fun but unnecessary Atlantis reference.

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                            • #15
                              but the whole point in peace out/home is that while angel values freedom of choice (rightfully so) over world peace, jasmine was actually offering something that would actually save billions more lives than it took--at the price of freedom of choice. it was pretty much a marxist utopia at its purest, most unnatural form.

                              lilah thanking angel investigations for ending world peace was the big brain-f*ck in the jasmine arc. evil doesn't always lie. evil was glad when angel took out jasmine, because jasmine had made evil obsolete--evil gets its power from being in the hearts and minds of all. wolfram & hart works on that principle. you make all the meatbags full of happiness and giggly joy and give them no choice about it, you can actually defeat evil, but ironically, it's probably the most evil thing of all to take away freedom of choice.

                              as i said, jasmine is beyond simple prosaic concepts like good and evil... she had the possibility of making a concept like "the first evil" and its power obsolete. though the first evil might not be the end all in terms of evil in the hearts and minds, because wolfram & hart helped get rid of the first evil. you'd think the first evil was their reason for existence--but wolfram & hart likes humanity doing it to itself rather than the first evil thinking it wants corporeal power in the sense of cracking necks. jasmine was the one being who could make both the first evil and wolfram & hart obsolete.

                              "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                              "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I guess I approach the First from a more spiritual aspect. I believe it goes even further into the primordial relm - I don't equate it with a god, or demon or anything "physical". I believe it WAS and IS and will always BE the evil that inhabits the universe and beyond.
                                -TP<3
                                "At that point I'd love a fight and a heart to heart and then of course naughtiness and happy ever after."
                                - Dorian's Kitten re: Spuffy Reunion

                                Spuffy Videos!

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                                • #17
                                  I feel that buffy was suppose to die the second time. The prime key to close the portal was HER/dawns blood, and it was meant to be. When willow took her out of heaven there HAD to be a consciqence. Buffy shouldve stayed in heaven. So when you call upon the dark powers willow called to do such a deed that caused a ripple in the good/evil score board and the first felt it necassary to even the score.

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Raven View Post
                                    There's one thing I always wondered *And this is off topic* Since Buffy died in "The Gift," shouldn't yet another slayer been called? Kendra was called after Buffy died in "Prophecy Girl" and when Kendra died, Faith was called. So when Buffy died *again* shouldn't another slayer had been called, or not? If not, then why? I'm just confused on that.
                                    The way I understand that Raven - you are called, you die, the next Slayer is called - and it can only happen once - even death.

                                    So - Buffy was called, then she drowned and Kendra was called.

                                    Kendra was called, Drusilla killed her, Faith was called.

                                    So - now Faith has to die before the next Slayer is called.

                                    Where Buffy "messed up" was being saved when she drowned - and then being resurrected by the Scoobies. Beljoxa was saying that by the Slayer being resurrected twice, it had caused a weakness in the Slayer line.

                                    The good thing? You get to keep your Slayer Powers when you are resurrected!!

                                    Originally Posted by Theresa Marie86 - I feel that buffy was suppose to die the second time. The prime key to close the portal was HER/dawns blood, and it was meant to be. When willow took her out of heaven there HAD to be a consciqence. Buffy shouldve stayed in heaven. So when you call upon the dark powers willow called to do such a deed that caused a ripple in the good/evil score board and the first felt it necassary to even the score.
                                    That makes sense! Even Willow explains it that way when the "Hitchhiker" demon came after the Scoobies after she returned.
                                    ThePoet's<3
                                    I am NOT Twilight!!
                                    Last edited by ThePoet's<3; 23-07-08, 06:02 AM.
                                    -TP<3
                                    "At that point I'd love a fight and a heart to heart and then of course naughtiness and happy ever after."
                                    - Dorian's Kitten re: Spuffy Reunion

                                    Spuffy Videos!

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by tuppence9 View Post
                                      but personally i would belive that the first had been working up to the events since prophecy girl, due to the creation of 2 slayers at the same time.
                                      The way I see it, there are at least four events that may have contributed to the "destabilization": Buffy's first death and non-mystical resuscitation, the Joining Spell to defeat Adam, the creation of Dawn, and Buffy's second death and mystical resurrection. All we have to go on to decide which of these are important and which are not is the conversation between Giles and Anya after they return from the Eye. If we take it for granted that they Giles is correct, the key event was her mystical resurrection ("It's not her dying. [...] It's because she lives.")
                                      If we don't take it for granted that he's correct, we can speculate as much as we like.
                                      Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post
                                      perhaps then, the first wanted angelus to kill buffy and suspected one of her friends would then try to resurrect her? perhaps the first knew buffy was slated to die and be resurrected again, and wanted to speed up the process by a few years?
                                      If that was the idea, it doesn't seem likely that the plan would have worked, though. Season 3's Willow wouldn't even have known where to begin. And since an important pro in the discussion about resurrecting her in season 6 was that they thought it likely that she was in some kind of hell dimension, which they wouldn't have if she had simply been killed by a vampire, I don't think we can assume that they would have tried to do it then even if they had had the know-how.
                                      Plus, does dying by bloodloss count as a mystical death only because a vampire caused the bloodloss? I don't think we can assume that.
                                      Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post
                                      speaking of which... why did the first hire debbie (a.k.a. patrice's doppelg?nger) to kill faith in prison with the bringer knife? faith was the one the first needed to stay alive until the potentials were killed off, not buffy.

                                      sounds like there was a hole in the first's knowledge of how the slayer line worked as well.
                                      It's dangerous to interpret canon that way, though. The only thing we really do know is, to quote Cordelia, "there was only one, but then Buffy died for like two minutes so Kendra was called, then Kendra died so Faith was called."
                                      Anything beyond that is interpretation, and if the writers decide to make it more complicated than simply "the line moves through Faith now", they are perfectly free to do that.
                                      Originally posted by Nikkolas View Post
                                      Also there is no being "beyond" good and evil. Good and evil are just fancy words for right and wrong. Any non-psychologically damaged mind knows that there is right and there is wrong.
                                      It's really not that simple. It is perfectly valid to argue that good and evil are human concepts, and that other types of intelligence might not share them. AllenGray elaborates the philosophical aspect very nicely, and one could also take a biological approach to show that moral concepts are a product of evolution.
                                      As far as I'm aware, The First is the oldest known entity in the Buffyverse.
                                      I don't think there is any way to successfully build a metaphysical framework that incorporates all of the superhuman entities introduced in "Buffy" and "Angel" at this point. We just haven't been given anywhere near enough information to work with, and most of what we do have is suspect, such as Big Bads talking about themselves.

                                      What I find problematic about the way the First is developed in season 7 is that we're given the impression that it transcends the universe itself on the one hand, but seems to be entirely focussed on Earth on the other.
                                      kassyopeia
                                      Cutting Room Florist
                                      Last edited by kassyopeia; 23-07-08, 10:03 PM.

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                                      • #20
                                        There is no difinitive right and wrong, good and evil in this world. Just look at the thousands of cultures that have lived on this earth and how much they varied in their view of right and wrong, good and evil. They varied so much that they hold nothing exactly incommon among the mass of them. Even the taboos varied. In some cultures it was ok to marry a half-sibling from one parent but not the other, sometimes kin killing was allowed under special cercumstances, and rape of young girls by older men was part of a puberty ritual that brought them into adulthood. All these were considered good. If there is a difinitive right and wrong, good and evil then each culture probablly gets a little right and a lot wrong, or all wrong, but never all right for who could possibly be completely right and every other culture completely wrong, the chance is simply to slim, to overwelmingly unlikely, to be. Not only that, but there would still be no way to know who had what right. A difinitive approach only leads to arguing, fighting, and death. In the end, assuming that any one person or culture has it right is not only arrogant, it is dangerous. It is far more productive to go with the non-difinitive approach discussed above because it at least has some loose tactile evidence to support it in the variety of belief systems and law systems that have existed in this world. It's more likely works along the lines of what AllenGray said

                                        Originally posted by AllenGray View Post
                                        Though from an anthropological, psychological stand-point one might say that good and evil originated as a way to preserve social structures.Most of our basic,moral mores are based on the need to strengthen society. Good and evil, conceptually represent psychological boundaries that allow us as individuals to form a sense of identity, a purpose, a grounded state where things mean something
                                        In the end it all depends on what culture you grew up in and what you have figured out for yourself. Until then, let he who has never done something neither his society, nor the society of the other, sees as wrong cast the first stone.

                                        The purpose of the first evil would thus be to make us do those things that are against our society and against our selves. And yes, there were cultures who did not recognize good and evil but instead recognized balance and unbalance, or natural and man (unatural). See some native american tribes for an example.
                                        miscjj06
                                        Hellmouth Tourist
                                        Last edited by miscjj06; 23-07-08, 10:15 PM.

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