The undeath of the cool

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Ok, I was going for a reference to those mix CDs called the "Rebirth of the Cool" that were out in the late 90s I think that reference Miles Davies' "Birth of the Cool". But then I realised that a) it was too obscure and b) it was lame. But let's look at coolness and lameness for a moment. In fact, let's do so for a whole thread. My question to you is...or are, since there are several...though you don't have to answer all, or in this order:

1) Is anyone in the Buffyverse truly cool, in a Miles Davies/James Dean/Johnny Depp/Rizzo in Grease kind of a way? Badass, slick, rebellious, you want to be them types?

2) Perhaps we should backtrack and ask...what IS cool? Who is cool? Taking Miles Davies as the gold standard here, I won't hear any quibbling about that one

3) What is the role of coolness in the Buffyverse? How does it affect how we see characters?

4) Then, what about geekiness? Is Xander a geek? Is Willow? Is Buffy? Where does "cool outsider" segue into "excluded geek"? How does the coolness factor of the characters (in terms of their social pecking order at school) affect the power structures of the group? Does it matter - or are they so wrapped up in demons etc that they don't worry about it too much?

5) Does the geek factor appeal to you - having some arguably geeky characters at the core of the show?

6) Do you think Cordy was a fair portrayal of a high school queen bee, or is no one really that mean?

7) Is Spike's coat cool or is it the sort of thing that screams midlife crisis? Is he a massive doofus really, or is he the Fonz as someone said in some article that was complaining about Spike being too cool to be on Buffy and spoiling the geekfest and relatability? What do you make of his transition from nerdy poet to bleach blonde punk rocker who likes the Ramones and the Sex Pistols (can you say stuck in the 70s?)? Does he ever leave the dork behind?

And say anyting you like that I haven't asked re cool on Buffy.

[Hekate]

I think it's really interesting in Welcome to the Hellmouth that Buffy basically passes Cordy's cool test and seems on her way to being part of the popular crowd, and then she pulls a u-turn and hangs out with nerdy Willow. They basically start the show with a complete denial of the importance of whatever cool is, because Buffy could have it, but she has absolutely no interest in it.

I'm also amused by the fact that Giles seems like a complete geek until we find out about Ripper in Halloween (and then when we get to see him in Band Candy). I think he would be the best representation of cool on the show, except for maybe Spike or Oz.

[Boltmaiden]

Uh I don't think I am the best to answer this because I think geeky is cool

But in the uh..normal sense of cool or badass? Ripper I do think would be considered that and when Spike first came on, yeah he seemed to be the definition of badass...except that he reminded me of a Billy Idol wannabe But I do thin Billy was cool in his day so you know. And all kidding aside I think being cool is being able to show your true self and wear what you like to wear to show that at least sometimes you will not follow the crowd.

So yeah anyway give me the geeks any day of the week.

[tangent]

For me the only really, deeply cool person is Oz.

Buffy could be cool but chooses, after a struggle, to reject the trappings of the popular kids. Spike comes across as cool at first but in later seasons we get to see his inner geek and the insecurities that the front he put up is hiding.

but as has been mentioned Geek is in right now. With the rise of such people as Mark Ronson etc geekchic is certainly more cool than it used to be.

So maybe Andrew is the cool one?

[Hekate]

Uh I don't think I am the best to answer this because I think geeky is cool

I know! The geeks are why I watch this show.

If Buffy had joined the Cordettes, I never would have made it past the first episode.

[Revan]

Cool is finding your own way and thing. It is never ever cool to copy someone else. It means you are a wannabe and don't think of yourself as cool. If you don't think of yourself as cool why would anybody else?

People who do this are the people who are copied always. If you copy someone else you are admiting that they are cooler than you and that is not cool.

For this reason I say Buffy is cool (look at how many people copied her look) Spike as well (Remember Billy idol copied his look ) and yes Oz is cool because everyone has so much respect for him.

Another thing respect=cool. If people respect you they think you are cool. Even if it's in only in your own way. People are jealous of those who are comfortable with themselves and that's why they copy others. And there is little respect for wannabe's have you ever noticed that?

[litzie]

Cool thread!

I think Buffy has an incredibly interesting relationship with 'cool'. I liked her right from the start because of the fact that she was put off by Cordelia's meanness and sought out Willow's company. I actually think that was the moment that made me a fan, though I didn't know it at the time. But despite her self-awareness and newfound knowledge that being cool isn't the be all end all, she craves popularity. Out of sight, out of mind...Homecoming...we see it in the way that she tries to find her place, MAKE a place, for herself. But I think for Buffy, popularity is also about nostalgia. It's about going back to a time in her life when there were no vampies, when all she had to worry about was whether Tyler was going to ask her to the dance...I think she looks back at herself and wishes that she could have that again, while at the same time seeing through the trappings of popularity.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I think it's really interesting in Welcome to the Hellmouth that Buffy basically passes Cordy's cool test and seems on her way to being part of the popular crowd, and then she pulls a u-turn and hangs out with nerdy Willow.

Yes, it is a very interesting moment indeed. I love it when Buffy says "She's been very nice? to me, at least." Or something along those lines, where she's clocked that Cordy is a cow but also establishes that she is in a different place to Willow. She has the option to join the cool gang but doesn't want to.

Of course, I wouldn't say Cordy is cool at all. She tries way too hard for that ? all that nonsense about laughing when a boy says something to you (in Reptile Boy). Mind you, perhaps cool ? in the rebel sense ? is all about trying, about constructing an image and projecting a certain aura on purpose? Like Spike constructing his Spike persona to hide his little vulnerable Willy (couldn't resist sorry).

They basically start the show with a complete denial of the importance of whatever cool is, because Buffy could have it, but she has absolutely no interest in it.

Though she does have a spell of wanting to be popular again, if not cool? because I don't think popular and cool are the same thing at all. EG in Heathers, Christian Slater, NOT popular, but the epitome of cool. Aha, that's how you spell it

So, Buffy does have some desire to be popular and accepted, but not to be leather-pants-and-attitude cool.

What about Faith? I see her as one of the coolest characters in that kind of a sense. Cool as a defence, again, like Spike.

I'm also amused by the fact that Giles seems like a complete geek until we find out about Ripper in Halloween (and then when we get to see him in Band Candy). I think he would be the best representation of cool on the show, except for maybe Spike or Oz.

He's sort of a Spike in reverse, isn't he? Underneath, he's cool, under his geeky exterior, which Spike is hiding behind his "costume". Though where the costume ends and the real person begins is always a question.

Uh I don't think I am the best to answer this because I think geeky is cool

Hee! Well, yes, of course it is. Jarvis Cocker is like a God after all

For me the only really, deeply cool person is Oz.

I disagree on that one. Oz irritates me. He's so emotionless. Which could read as cool, but to me it just makes me think Rain Man. :P

Spike comes across as cool at first but in later seasons we get to see his inner geek and the insecurities that the front he put up is hiding.

I think in the end my take on Spike will always be that he's not cool in one sense ? because he cares too much. Being too invested in people isn't "cool" (in the badass sense). But perhaps the word awesome would be better? Spike is awesome, but he's not cool?. His flaws make him more interesting, more alive and vibrant, but he's also a massive doofus that sets himself on fire when he's drunk.

I think Dru is more genuinely cool than Spike. She's so much herself, not pretending to be anyone else, but also badass. She's of the crazy-sexy-cool school

So maybe Andrew is the cool one?

Totally He should get his own show. Like Gok Kwan, who is totally the epitomy (except I can't spell today) of the gay nerd to me. "How to look good nerdy" perhaps? Or the very often used joke so sorry for bringing it out again?. "Queer Eye for the Undead Guy"? Which would be a show about Andrew telling Angel and Spike how to dress. I would watch it for hours.

[QUOTE=Hekate;229585]I know! The geeks are why I watch this show.

If Buffy had joined the Cordettes, I never would have made it past the first episode.

I guess it depends on what terms she joined them. If it was a kind of "oh, these people like me, I'll just go along with it for the moment while I sort myself out"?that might've been ok. But if she'd tried to impress them then?ugh. But I liked the path she chose best.

Cool is finding your own way and thing. It is never ever cool to copy someone else. It means you are a wannabe and don't think of yourself as cool. If you don't think of yourself as cool why would anybody else?

I think having the mystique of cool ? seeming cool to others ? can be based on creating a show that you come to believe yourself? but perhaps the most genuinely cool people are those who are engaged in something. EG someone who's totally absorbed in music (again I say?Miles Davies). I think Dru's absorption in her version of reality is pretty cool. Plus, she doesn't copy anyone else's fashion sense.

People are jealous of those who are comfortable with themselves and that's why they copy others. And there is little respect for wannabe's have you ever noticed that?

Actually, thinking about it? Cordelia IS cool in the end, in this way. She's not a sheep like Harmony? though her coolness probably only comes through fully when she moves on to Angel. Her lack of shame is pretty cool, though she does work on creating the image of popularity at first. In the end, when she loses everything? that's when she becomes cool, cos she's stripped of the trappings of popularity and has to work out who she is and what she wants.

But I think for Buffy, popularity is also about nostalgia. It's about going back to a time in her life when there were no vampies, when all she had to worry about was whether Tyler was going to ask her to the dance...I think she looks back at herself and wishes that she could have that again, while at the same time seeing through the trappings of popularity.

Interesting point ? it's not that she wants to be popularity for itself, but for what it symbolises. Popularity = no blood and death and horror. She often talks about how she wishes she could just worry about having the right hair (eg in Welcome to the Hellmouth) but instead she has to think about fighting techniques. I think if she wasn't the slayer? perhaps she would've tired of being popular after a while? Or perhaps she wouldn't. She might've remained blissfully shallow, who knows? I like to think she wouldn't though. Maybe she would've joined a band after all, and been hell on the old skins?

[sueworld]

For me the following could be seen as being 'cool'...

Spike (of course)
Oz
Giles (ooooh yes!)

[stormwreath]

There seems to be an undercurrent here that cool means 'popular' or 'wearing the right clothes and projecting the right attitude'...

But to me, the most impossibly cool thing that ever happened on the show was Buffy catching that sword in her bare hands in 'Becoming 2'. So by extension, Buffy is cool.

Even if she can be a hopeless klutz at other times.

[AllenGray]

I don't think any character is cool in the classic, very badass or very preppy sense of it. Spike and Cordelia begin as representatives of those types respectively but we later learn that Spike wrote poetry ( And not even chic, anarchistic poetry) and Cordelia rejects her position as High School Queen. It all depends how cool is defined: If we accept the old definitions, the stereotypical, archetypal ones then I don't believe any of the cast can be considered cool because they're so rounded and human that being stereotypical is nearly impossible. Also because Buffy tends to subvert stereotypes the cool are condemned to uncoolness anyway. The only one who is actually cool is Oz and that's just because he is so darn taciturn. Taciturn people are always cool.

[stormwreath]

......

I don't think any character is cool in the classic, very badass or very preppy sense of it. Spike and Cordelia begin as representatives of those types respectively but we later learn that Spike wrote poetry ( And not even chic, anarchistic poetry) and Cordelia rejects her position as High School Queen. It all depends how cool is defined: If we accept the old definitions, the stereotypical, archetypal ones then I don't believe any of the cast can be considered cool because they're so rounded and human that being stereotypical is nearly impossible. Also because Buffy tends to subvert stereotypes the cool are condemned to uncoolness anyway. The only one who is actually cool is Oz and that's just because he is so darn taciturn. Taciturn people are always cool.

Huh.

[AllenGray]

[QUOTE=stormwreathHuh.[/QUOTE]

Bad Huh? Thoughtful Huh? Don't-know-what-he's-trying-to-say-so-I'll-make a-noncommital-huh-noise huh? I wonder. Huh.

[stormwreath]

Bad Huh? Thoughtful Huh? Don't-know-what-he's-trying-to-say-so-I'll-make a-noncommital-huh-noise huh? I wonder. Huh.

If I'd gone into more detail with my 'huh', I would have stopped being taciturn. Which would make me uncool. (You noticed that the last sentence in my quote of your post was in a different font to the rest, I hope?)

[AllenGray]

Sorry. No. Still Very Cool though, explaining cool things to less cool, less perceptive people.

[lara]

I think the truly cool one, was Oz. Spike in the beginnig too, but then he showed that he never really stop being the geeky poet William, deep down he has a really soft spot and a lot of insecurity. I think maybe at the end of the show, in season 7, he got some of his cool back.

[Veverka]

I don't know.

What I do think is that it's a tricky concept because in my opinion, high school cool and post high school cool are so very different (Thank goodness!!! ) and this is a show clearly set in high school, but one assumes Joss and co wanted more than just high school students to be able to watch and identify as more than high school students.

Hmm. Really clear... sorry, it's not!

[Nina]

1) Is anyone in the Buffyverse truly cool, in a Miles Davies/James Dean/Johnny Depp/Rizzo in Grease kind of a way? Badass, slick, rebellious, you want to be them types?
Oz is the only cool one, because he doesn't try to be cool ... he is cool. We all know that Spike is hiding the real him, Angel is trying really hard to be cool and the same for Cordelia, Harmony and Buffy. If we can count Ats as well, Gunn is cool as well.

2) Perhaps we should backtrack and ask...what IS cool? Who is cool? Taking Miles Davies as the gold standard here, I won't hear any quibbling about that one
Cool is being yourself without trying to hard ... but still funny, smart, good looking, being popular but not in the Harmony sheepy way.

3) What is the role of coolness in the Buffyverse? How does it affect how we see characters?
Almost none of them is really cool, they try to be cool ... sometimes to hide, sometimes because they think that it's important and sometimes because they think that life is easier when you're cool. But almost nobody is cool. They are a bunch of misfits in BtVS and the Ats cast are the misfits of the misfits.

4) Then, what about geekiness? Is Xander a geek? Is Willow? Is Buffy? Where does "cool outsider" segue into "excluded geek"? How does the coolness factor of the characters (in terms of their social pecking order at school) affect the power structures of the group? Does it matter - or are they so wrapped up in demons etc that they don't worry about it too much?
They were low on the social ladder, but they had pathetic people like Jonathan under them. So they weren't the real losers of the school. About geeks, not very outsider is a geek, the most are just outsiders ... sometimes because they had a fight with the popular kids, sometimes becuse they just don't care about clothes or fashion, sometimes because they are different etc. I think that there are two kind of geeks; first the group of Willow, the smart kids who wear weird clothes but have high rates and will have a date on the end of the road. And you've the Andrew/Jonathan geeks, the guys who play with their Star Wars dolls, know every movie and they are social lower than the Willows and the Xanders. Xander is a little bit likethe last group of geeks, but he is cooler than those geeks.

5) Does the geek factor appeal to you - having some arguably geeky characters at the core of the show?
No, but they weren't the really geeky characters. Xander dated Cordelia, Willow dated Oz and Buffy was a former cheerleader. They are good looking, can get dates and are not bullied around. They were outcasts, it didn't make me like them more or less. But they shouldn't feel sorry for themselves ... there are people for who highschool is much worse.

6) Do you think Cordy was a fair portrayal of a high school queen bee, or is no one really that mean?
I don't know, I've the feeling that we have less big differences here than in America. We've cool kids and the non-cool kids. But no cheerleaders and sportteams with really cool kids. But I've seen bigger bitches on my tv screen, and Cordelia was bitchy and snarky ... but on the end of the day she drove Xander to Buffy, she went patrolling and she helped thinking and researching.

7) Is Spike's coat cool or is it the sort of thing that screams midlife crisis? Is he a massive doofus really, or is he the Fonz as someone said in some article that was complaining about Spike being too cool to be on Buffy and spoiling the geekfest and relatability? What do you make of his transition from nerdy poet to bleach blonde punk rocker who likes the Ramones and the Sex Pistols (can you say stuck in the 70s?)? Does he ever leave the dork behind?
Spike feels fake to me, some kind of cover for William. He looks, walks and talks like a really cool person ... but we all know what's under that Spike. The coat is prove that he is cool for him, the chance that Darla, Angelus and Drusilla also killed slayers is big ... but you never hear them speak about it. It's not a big deal to them because they don't want to prove that they are cool ... Darla and Angelus are the real deal already and Dru probably doesn't care. That coat is for Spike a sign that he is somebody.

[AlienEeeter]

Agreeing with a lot of ppl here--

Oz, early Spike, and Ripper (who isn't really Giles...though Giles got less geeky and more cool as he started going through the midlife crisis. except the new car of course. the new car was *not* cool. It was too stereotypical...)

Anyway. Oz and Ripper/Giles are cool because they are musicians, and all musicians are cool (as long as they don't major in it in college). And Oz being completely unflappable is pretty cool too.

Spike was cool because he had bleached hair, a leather jacket and boots, and spoke in an accent (because all accents are cool). He also had the whole rebel factor, barging in and saying how things were going to be done. He was also really cool at the end of Lovers Walk when he stops being whiny and starts to kick ass.

I don't know if the sex pistols are cool, seems to me they just liked to make noise and cause trouble. The Ramones, on the other hand, are the coolest punk band ever (while we're on the subject).

edit to add: Being popular and sheep-like is the least cool you could be. I never thought Cordy was cool--I felt sorry for her.

[vampmogs]

I guess it all depends on your definition of cool? Do clothes make you cool, does a bravado make you cool, does passing Cordy's 'Coolness Factor' test make you cool? Who knows, really depends on your definition of cool.

I've seen a couple of people mention Spike's leather coat, his bleached hair and his bravado as signs that he's cool. But at the end of the day that's all really superficial aspects to his character, did he suddenly become "un-cool" if he took the jacket off, when his hair went wild in 'Lessons' or when he cared about something? If clothes really do "make the man" then by that definition Spike isn't cool at all, not really, he just gives the impression he's cool.

Take for example the end scene in 'Schoolhard' when Joyce hits him over the axe and bravely tells him "to get the hell away from her daughter." Who was cooler in that scene? The guy with the leather jacket and bleached hair or the woman who just knocked him on the noggin protecting her daughter and sent him running for his life? I'd pick the woman, that's all Joyce, she doesn't need a leather coat to suddenly make her part of the in-crowd.

And that's not me saying Spike isn't cool, but if his coolness is determined by his 'look' then I'd say yeah, really he ain't that cool.

Same applies to Cordelia. She had her 'coolness factor test,' heck, she even had a written. But who was cooler, Cordy who was a horrible bitca to Willow at the drinking fountain or Buffy who didn't give a damn and was incredibly sweet to Willow? Or am I just turning into one of parents who says “it’s hip” to be nice? Who knows, hopefully not I'm only nineteen

But at the end of the day the character can be as 'cool' as they want, but if they try so hard to be cool at least in the Buffyverse it usually doesn't work in their favour. Buffy didn't try and be cool and she was surrounded by a group of people who cared so much about her, people who put their lives on the line to help her. Cordy tried to be cool and was surrounded by people, who even she claims don't really know or even really listen and take in what she's saying. Who has it better?

I actually read the article Wolife mentioned concerning Spike's character and how he "ruined Btvs." And whilst the article was incredibly harsh and a lot of the time un just IMO, admittedly they did raise one interesting point worth taking into consideration. In high school the fact Buffy/Willow/Xander were nerds was embraced, it was seen as a positive thing. The show commented on how being popular doesn't always make you happy through Cordelia, and how having a solid unit of friends does through Buffy. It gave applause to the un-cool kid who many didn't even "take the time to get to know" in 'The Prom' and it made the 'library' a integral part of the show, but it kicked the crap out of the 'bad boyfriend' who's mean after sex (Angelus) and the guy who thinks he's better than all the rest (Spike.)

But there was a tonal shift in later seasons, when Spike was being portrayed as cool to mock the Scoobies and their efforts and not give a damn, when he was portrayed as cool to mock Xander when in 'Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered' Cordelia was shown in a positive light for striking up for the guy, in some ways he did become the Fonz. There was a time the show would have embraced the Scoobies instead. And some have even suggested the Scoobies became more like the 'Cordettes' instead of the social outcasts, leaving people like Tara and Anya to be treat like outsiders and 'un-cool' by the people who were once in their place. I think that's something to think about it. Did someone need to stick up for Tara or Anya like Cordy did for Xander or Willow did for Buffy in 'Welcome to the Hellmouth'? or did they cover that in 'Family'? Was this intentional? Did the show loose its message? Who knows.