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***Nina*** · 08-06-08, 01:01 PM

Some things are ridiculous in both series, tv and comic. But I think that problem with the comic is that it happens a lot in a short time. And that some things are just for the fun and not part of the story.

About Wesley talking ot a giant plastic hamburger, it's the worst thing ever. Who came up with that idea? In a very dark arc with a very confused Wesley with a big problem because he is afraid that his best friend is going to kill his son, they do that... And the hamburger wasn't funny or needed ... just very ridiculous.

But the weird things that are happening are not really bothering me ... or it has to happen a lot in a short time. Like in the comics, where it starts to bother me because it takes away the feeling of BtVS, and sometimes I've the feeling that they like to do weird/funny/shocking things to shock or for the laughs but that they forget the development of the characters like giant Dawn because she went to bed with somebody other than her boyfriend ... for her first time, Willow sleeping with the green demon while Kennedy is her GF, Dracula and Xander friendship, Buffy using somebody who loves her because she is alone etc.

Spoiler:

My big problems are the deux ex machinas, plotholes, retcons and writerfiats. The only retcon that made me 'happy', was the Jasmine retcon because that was the only way to redeem Cordelia and to explain Connor's birth. While there is enough space to not believe everything that Jasmine or Skip says.

But the retcon in 'Normal Again' is stupid and not needed. And the whole, "My blood is your blood" retcon in the Gift doesn't make sense either. And the worst of all is of course the "Spike wanted his soul all the time!" retcon in season 6/7.

Those retcons bother me more than the small retcons because they aren't important for the story ... only the fact that Sunnydale has so many things (University, Zoo, Museum, Airport etc.) is of course not very well done. Neither is the hole in the ground in Chosen when the sea and the woods are all gone.

I can go on, ranting about the Scyth (actually it's an axe), the amulet, trollhamer etc. and about all the times that the writers saved the characters because the plan didn't make sense. But I won't because it will change in a big rant about Chosen... only one thing;

What is magic? Is it just magic? Is it sex? Or is it crack?

I know that the most of my post is about the tv show years, but until now ... no big things are happened in the comics with retcons (only, Buffy was never in Rome, and we used the Immortal in our plan to annoy Angel and Spike Hahaha! ) or deux ex machinas ... which are the worst things IMO.

**dane5by5** · 08-06-08, 01:25 PM

I think people use the term "retcon" very loosely. Either that, or I just don't understand what it means.

Because to me, Normal Again, may be a retcon, but it was not a BAD retcon, it was a secret that Buffy kept. It came out at a very dark point in her life. Which makes sense. It added to the story, without invalidating any previous story/knowledge the audience had about Buffy's history. Unless I'm forgetting something?

The "My blood is your blood" is not really retcon either. It was a plot device that was in play months before it was put to use. It was like subtext that became text without people realising.

There are some plotholes. I find plotholes significantly more annoying than "retcon" or deus ex machina such as the Scythe. I mean, it's BUFFY that we're talking about. Are we expecting everything to be a realistic mirror to life? One spell and the enormous threat is defeated. That is Buffy.

At least when there's deus ex machina the writers/characters acknowledge it. That's an aspect of Buffy and Angel that I always valued, the self awareness.

The fanfic/crackfic comments really annoy me. I don't know where people get off saying things like that. If these professional writers wrote fanfic, they wouldn't be working on successful television, film and comics.

They'd be at home writing fanfic.

I feel like if a person doesn't like the story, the most insulting thing they can say is "Oh. This is just like fanfic." It doesn't make sense and it certainly doesn't make the person seem like a discernable critic. It just makes them seem like an idiot.

**Weredog** · 08-06-08, 04:12 PM

Buffy in an asylum wasn't a retcon. It would've been a retcon had she been saying "I've never been in an asylum" in the first 5 seasons, then admit otherwise in season 6. But she didn't; she neither admitted nor denied it until "Normal Again." To claim that it's a retcon would be like saying that "The Dark Age" is a complete retcon of Giles' character.

Anyhow, in regards to the comics, the one and only retcon is (and this is a retcon) the return of Warren ****ing Mears, as Willow calls him. I love Joss, and I would totally drink his bathwater, but "The Long Way Home, Part 4" was a complete mistake. Mainly because season seven confirmed that Warren was dead. A multitude of episodes had characters either claim "he's dead" or "Willow killed him." And more evidently, The First took his guise which means that he is dead. So then what's with the "Amy saved me seconds before I died of shock alone" stuff? Totally not cool. But Joss has admitted his mistake, so at least he's not trying to bullshit his way out of this definite retcon. So I forgive him.

Other than that, I am very pleased with season 8. There are other itty bitty shticks that I make me scratch my head, like how Mecha Dawn is programmed with so much correct information about Dawn, but these things are very minuscule and ultimately don't spoil my enjoyment of the series. Keep up the great work, DarkHorse!

Originally posted by dane5by5 View Post

I feel like if a person doesn't like the story, the most insulting thing they can say is "Oh. This is just like fanfic." It doesn't make sense and it certainly doesn't make the person seem like a discernable critic. It just makes them seem like an idiot.

**Sosa lola** · 08-06-08, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by dane5by5 View Post

Because to me, Normal Again, may be a retcon, but it was not a BAD retcon, it was a secret that Buffy kept. It came out at a very dark point in her life. Which makes sense. It added to the story, without invalidating any previous story/knowledge the audience had about Buffy's history. Unless I'm forgetting something?

Actually it hurt Joyce's character because she wasn't supposed to know a thing about vampires before. In Killed by Death, she was surprised to hear Buffy talk about vampires and Giles had to make excuses. Buffy's conversation with Joyce in Becoming 2 doesn't make sense now without Joyce mentioning something about getting Buffy into an institution.

Originally posted by Weredog View Post

Buffy in an asylum wasn't a retcon. It would've been a retcon had she been saying "I've never been in an asylum" in the first 5 seasons, then admit otherwise in season 6. But she didn't; she neither admitted nor denied it until "Normal Again." To claim that it's a retcon would be like saying that "The Dark Age" is a complete retcon of Giles' character.

See my response to dane5by5. As for Giles, we already saw a glimpse of his darks side in Halloween.

**vampmogs** · 09-06-08, 04:11 AM

Agreed about the complete double standards. People will come down on season 8 for things that have always happened, they want to hate it.

I've heard people complaining that Willow's abilities change every issue not every season, they only make reference to season 8. I've heard people claim "since when can Willow sense someone is in love with somebody else?" in regards to 'The Long Way Home.' Ah, since when could Willow communicate and read people's minds until 'The Gift'? Were people coming down on this episode because we were introduced to a new ability of Willows? Course not. They expect there to be no new developments in season 8 and it's just ridiculous.

I've also heard other complaints that Willow is too powerful. People said it was stupid how she could heal herself in 'The Long Way Home' as if this is a unique problem to season 8. Willow healed herself from an axe to the back in 'Villians' and healed her face from cuts and bruises from her fight with Giles in 'Grave.' Again, this is nothing new for her, but they'll act like it is.

And as Sosa points out, the giant isn't ridiculous for the Buffyverse no matter what people claim, there's been just as out there things and no one battered an eyelid.

Other complaints I've heard;

*Since when did a character die in a comedic episode? - Ah Joyce died at the end of 'I Was Made To Love You'

*Season 8 takes the easy way out by having Gigi's death be an accident- Ah was the show taking the easy way out by having Buffy only put Faith in a coma, by having the lightning kill Post and not Buffy, by having Warren killing Katrina instead of Buffy?

*It's sexist by having Buffy in tight leather pants- Yup, pretty much roll your eyes at this one. Especially considering Buffy wore tight leather pants throughout the show; 'Prophecy Girl' 'The Dark Age' 'Graduation Day' 'New Moon Rising' 'Spiral' 'Weight of the World' 'The Gift' just to name a few.

*The comics are sexist for having Buffy in a nightie or showing her in bed with the covers on- But it's ok to have Angel and Spike shirtless for at least half the bloody series, even the writers stated James Marsters got tired of it.

*After the Fall is good but Buffy season 8 sucks because every issue they try and top the ending with something bigger- Ah I love both series but how you can you claim this about Buffy and not Atf? After the Fall first ended with Gunn being revealed as a vampire, then the reappearance of Illyria, then Angel as a freakin human being! Not to mention the reappearance of nearly every major Ats player in the show.

And yeah I agree completely with dane5by5 as well concerning the 'crackfic' or 'fanfic' comments. I can't take their criticism seriously either as soon as they bring either words into their argument. Someone can dislike it all they want but no matter how many times they say it, this isn't fanfic until Joss Whedon says it's fanfic, it's one deluding themselves. And the only reason they claim such things is because the show is continuing in a new medium. When they've really disliked things in the show in the past they never claim it to be 'fanfic' or 'crackfic' because it was televised. Now that it's not they think they can write it off as such which really makes new sense. Don't have to love it but why they choose to use those words is beyond me.

**lee** · 09-06-08, 04:21 AM

The most ridiculous thing on Btvs was Dark Willows powers.
I liked the character, and the idea behind it but, they just gave her far more power than
anyone should have. I mean, flying around, throwing fire balls, teleporting etc. This is as
ridiculous as it gets.
One of the reasons i liked Buffy at first was no one, not even the big bads had such
ridiculous amounts of power. I prefered the sort of magic Willow
could do in seasons 1-4.

**vampmogs** · 09-06-08, 04:28 AM

Originally posted by lee View Post

The most ridiculous thing on Btvs was Dark Willows powers.
I liked the character, and the idea behind it but, they just gave her far more power than
anyone should have. I mean, flying around, throwing fire balls, teleporting etc. This is as
ridiculous as it gets.
One of the reasons i liked Buffy at first was no one, not even the big bads had such
ridiculous amounts of power. I prefered the sort of magic Willow
could do in seasons 1-4.

Well yeah you don't have to like it. My problem is when people state as if it's only in season 8 this has been a problem to give the season as much flak as they can. They ignore that her power, whilst is greater (though I suspect now that's a plot point for her upcoming arc) wasn't that different in past seasons, seasons which they love.

**lee** · 09-06-08, 04:36 AM

I wouldnt know, ive only read NFFY and there didnt seem to be anything to bad.
Although, that bit when Buffy just magic appears by magic in front of Gigis watcher, is
pretty stupid. S6 for me, was when they started to take some things too far.

**vampmogs** · 09-06-08, 04:57 AM

Originally posted by lee View Post

Although, that bit when Buffy just magic appears by magic in front of Gigis watcher, is
pretty stupid. S6 for me, was when they started to take some things too far.

I don't mind teleportation really. It's always been in the verse, Angel has been teleported places, Willow teleported Glory up into the sky ect. And at least they kept it consistent with Buffy throwing up after being teleported by her surprise, like when she doubled over in pain when Willow teleported her into the Magic Box in 'Two To Go.'

I agree that some stuff in season six in particular was a little silly. Especially when Willow makes the band change in the Bronze, or people grow big and tall, or turning everyone into sheep. It was all kind of lame. Yet, nevertheless acceptable for the verse, Amy turned Buffy into a rat in in season two so turning people into sheep isn't out there. And I think there's the distinction, I didn't like it but I'm not calling it crack or claiming it doesn't fit in with the Buffyverse as some season 8 critics do.

The thing I felt they took to far was the axe in the back during 'Villains.' In ?Long Way Home' Warren is lobotomising and torturing Willow, he never landed a killing blow. Accompany this with the fact Willow retreated into her mind not to feel the effects and I can buy that. When he was interrupted she was able to heal herself because her injuries, though terribly severe, weren't life threatening in their current state. But I would have thought an axe to the back would have killed Willow instantly.

**lee** · 09-06-08, 05:11 AM

Yeah, i just think theres power, and then theres too much power.
Anyone capable of doing what Willow could do late s6 is pretty much invincible,
and i just think no one should get that kind of power.
I loved the kind of powers Willow had in the earlier years, and the sort of power the Master or
Dracula has. But although these people had great power, they wernt invincible and flying aroud shooting enery balls.
The whole point in slayers is to fight the demons, but with power like Willows or even the potentials, the real slayers ended up not being as important. willow could have went down
into the hellmouth and just started blasting everyone with fireballs.

**lee** · 09-06-08, 05:42 AM

Theres something else i noticed, i read WATG pt4 and was wondering
why the hell is Dracula fighting alongside the scoobies and talking
to Xander like they're friends? Ive enjoyed what ive read of s8 so far but
i cant help feeling that its doing an injustice to Btvs tv series.
doing a comic series and calling it official is kind of a crappy way
to finish off the greatest TV show ever.

**vampmogs** · 09-06-08, 05:52 AM

Originally posted by lee View Post

Theres something else i noticed, i read WATG pt4 and was wondering
why the hell is Dracula fighting alongside the scoobies and talking
to Xander like they're friends? Ive enjoyed what ive read of s8 so far but
i cant help feeling that its doing an injustice to Btvs tv series.
doing a comic series and calling it official is kind of a crappy way
to finish off the greatest TV show ever.

You need to read the whole arc, not just one issue, to understand why Dracula is at their side right now.

In season 8 they said that Xander left the Scoobies for a while and ended up living with Dracula. In which time Dracula brainwashed him and made him his 'manservant' a lot like he was in 'Buffy VS Dracula.' Buffy eventually rescued him in 'Antique' and they hadn’t seen each other since. In their period of living together Dracula grew affections for Xander. In 'Wolves At The Gate' the Scoobies are attacked by vampires who have the same powers as Dracula did (shape shifting, turning into smoke ect) so Xander has to go to Dracula to find out why this is. Dracula is furious to find out the vampires have his powers so agrees to join Buffy (whom he says he hates) in an effort to stop these vampires.

The part that was hard to swallow for a lot of fans, myself included, was the idea that Xander had been writing to Dracula after 'Buffy Vs Dracula' which eventually ended with him going to Dracula's door step. Thankfully it was Andrew who stated this, and given everything we've seen in 'Wolves At The Gate' I'm more than happy to come down on the side that Andrew was embellishing the whole thing. Nothing indicated in this episode that Xander returned any of the sentiment Dracula shared for him. Quite the opposite, he dreaded having to go to Dracula, hated being under his thrall and then tells Dracula in Issue #15 if Dracula calls him a manservant again, he'll kill the vampire in his sleep. Nothing suggests Xander ever genuinely liked Dracula, he was brainwashed by the vampire. Dracula's affection was never reciprocated willingly.

Having Dracula by the Scoobie’s side was actually a highpoint for a lot of people in the arc. He was very funny at times and though he was still evil, admittedly his affections for Xander when Xander looses his Renee did put a smile on my face at least.

**lee** · 09-06-08, 05:59 AM

Xander was writing to Dracula? omg. Then he went to him. Now Dracs fighting alongside humans!
This is the sort of stuff that annoys me about this being official. I just wish Joss really tried to focus
on getting Buffy spin-offs back on TV.

**vampmogs** · 09-06-08, 06:15 AM

Originally posted by lee View Post

Xander was writing to Dracula? omg. Then he went to him. Now Dracs fighting alongside humans!

I don't know why it's hard to believe Buffy could have a vampire fighting by her side, Spike was evil and he did for a number of years? And Dracula didn't help Buffy because of Xander, Xander asks for his help and he flat out refuses. He only starts helping when he realises that other vampire's are using his powers, and being the egotistical monster he is with all his "showy gypsy stuff" (Buffy VS Dracula) he wants to put a stop to it. By the end of the issue he's left the Scoobies again. He never once stated he liked the Scoobies, in fact he wished Buffy and all the slayers were dead, wanted to eat the body of dead slayer Aiko and threatened to slit Renee's throat if she spoke again. He was never portrayed as 'good.'

This is the sort of stuff that annoys me about this being official. I just wish Joss really tried to focus
on getting Buffy spin-offs back on TV.

I don't think it's fair to judge something you haven't read for yourself yet.

Besides Joss came up with these storylines. What makes you think he wouldn't have done them on a televised season? Some of the big epic battles he could have only done in the comic medium for budget reasons, but the Dracula storyline he could have easily done on TV, that didn't happen because it's a comic.

**lee** · 09-06-08, 06:26 AM

Its not that i find it hard to believe. It just sounds like a bit of a lame story.
I loved their version of Dracula on TV, and this just kind of spoils the character a bit.
Its like Spike is my favorite character. Angels top 4 too. But, as much
as i liked Spike in s6 and s7, in the grand scheme of things, it would have been better
for the overall story if instead of Spike getting chipped, they should have had Buffy kill him in s4 or s5.
And if Angel didnt get his own spin-off, he shouldnt have been brought back in s3.

And alot of people dont like comics, so thats another reason i dont like s8's 'official' status.
Plus its gonna take too long(years and years for a couple of comic seasons? come on, thats what i call
ripping off the fans)

**vampmogs** · 09-06-08, 06:42 AM

Originally posted by lee View Post

Its not that i find it hard to believe. It just sounds like a bit of a lame story.

Yeah but just give it a chance you never know you may be pleasently surprised. I mean I hated Dracula's character in 'Buffy VS Dracula' in season 5 and was kind of dreading having an arc about him in season 8. But I was pleasently surprised and the story is actually really good. It's not the only story going on in the arc, it also boosts up Willow's story in which she's been up to something very bad by the looks of things and also has a heartbreaking story for Xander with the death of Renee and IMO the Buffy/Satsu story actually turned out really good in the end.

I loved their version of Dracula on TV, and this just kind of spoils the character a bit.

Ah kay. See I hated him in season five but really liked him in this, so that's probably where we differ.

And alot of people dont like comics, so thats another reason i dont like s8's 'official' status.

A lot of people, myself included, never read comics until season 8 and it's actually introduced people to new a medium of storytelling. Which I personally can only see as a plus. The medium has its limitations, it'll never be as good as TV but I judge the series on it's stories and in that regard I think they're better than anything season six or season seven produced, for sure.

Plus its gonna take too long(years and years for a couple of comic seasons? come on, thats what i call
ripping off the fans)

I also see that as a plus. We get new 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' every month for the next couple of years, where's the bad? Plus the comics are like $5.00 a month

Joss tried and failed to get minimovies going, the only hope we have now is 'Ripper.' He's just started 'Dollhouse' as well. We'll probably never get a TV Spinoff, I'm just thankful we're getting more Buffy, no matter what medium it is in.

**lee** · 09-06-08, 06:51 AM

I never read comics before until i read No Future For You a month ago, and i was seriously pleasantly suprised. It was such a good story and well written. If that had been a two parter
in Btvs TV series, it would have been one of the best. I also got Atf issues 4 and 7
and i cant wait to see what happens with Gunn, definetly the most interesting story
in Atf(imo)

**stormwreath** · 09-06-08, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by Nina View Post

sometimes I've the feeling that they like to do weird/funny/shocking things to shock or for the laughs but that they forget the development of the characters like giant Dawn because she went to bed with somebody other than her boyfriend ... for her first time, Willow sleeping with the green demon while Kennedy is her GF, Dracula and Xander friendship, Buffy using somebody who loves her because she is alone etc.
.

So. You think it's out of character for:

Dawn to sneak away to be with a boy who pays attention to her, then regret the consequences and be all secretive?

Willow to go behind her girlfriend's back to do morally dubious things in the pursuit of greater knowledge and magical power?

Xander to have a sarcastic relationship with a vampire whom he half-hates and half-respects, but puts up with him because Buffy asked him to?

Buffy to have sex with someone who loves her, because she's miserable and just wants to feel a connection?

Really?

***Nina*** · 09-06-08, 01:47 PM

Ehm yes, or at least that they would've learned of the last time they did it. Buffy/Spike happened in her very dark period, she is out of that now ... and after season 7 you would think that Willow would be careful with her magic, but nuh-uh, and one issue she is all 'I need to pretect Kennedy' and in another issue she is having a thing with that green thing. It's not a real development for the characters, which I did expect.

I think that I will never get over the Dracula/Xander friendship thing ... I know that Xander doesn't see Dracula as his BFF, but still I can't buy their relationship.

And about Dawn; Okay maybe this isn't really weird for Dawn ... I didn't expect it, but I can believe it.

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