Robin Wood

[lee]

just wondering what people thought of Robin Wood.
i actually think he's a great character, a good idea about making
him Nikki Woods son. It ended up very interesting imo.
He just seemed to fit in perfectly with the set up.

I always loved Fool for Love and my favorite episodes are usually
the ones focused on slayers and Vampires.
So there was alot of this theme when Wood was around, being tied up in the lives of Buffy, spike and his mother.

I love the way that he(like most other guys) hated Spike.
There was always that tension when they were around, you just knew
Wood was desperate to kill Spike. And it was good to finally see a normal human
that was capable of dusting vampires, because he was trained by his
mums watcher, and i think thats another great part of his character that fits nicely into the story.

And the Wood/Spike story came to an excellent finish with Lies my parents told me, a highlight of s7. In fact, the wood story may have been the best thing on s7.

[NimNams]

Not sure why, but I never got into him. There's something about the actor that I always feel is smarmy and insincere.

[LaJaula]

I don't like him. Part of the reason is that I hate his purpose-- Lies My Parents Told Me is an awful episode with an awful message, and I hate that his entire storyline was just to get to that point. He took the role in Spike's life that should've been filled by Buffy (past victim) and he took the role in Faith's life that IMO should have been Xander's (Someone to talk to about her issues with men). As a character, I find him bland-- he has very few defining characteristics other than "cool".

[lee]

What do you mean by 'an awful message?'

[BlasterBoy]

I disliked him, with a passion. Like LaJuala, I hated "Lies My Parents Told Me", so that did not help me. He was an interesting premise for a character and I liked Nikki!First, but he had no personality and, at first, he seemed like a really bad love interest for Buffy. Then, he got this lame storyline with Spike. I liked the idea that he was a Slayer's son, but not that he had this grudge against Spike and how he was so determined to kill him. Totally dumb, totally boring, and took away valuable time to show the scoobies shine. IMO, he was a complete waste of time.

[LaJaula]

Basically, it says that Spike shouldn't feel the least bit upset about those he harmed when he was evil. "I don't give a piss about your mum." is to be one of the worst things Spike has ever said; I don't think that Spike when ensouled is exactly responsible for what he did as an evil vampire, but I do think that he should realize, "Hey, that was wrong. I killed this guy's mother. Maybe I should, you know, apologize?" and feel bad about it. Instead he wears his coat like a trophy, bragging about the fact that he killed Nikki Wood.

Also, it sort-of invalidates Buffy's complaints throughout the series, since Spike seems to suggest that if Nikki didn't want to die, she should have just "quit" being a Slayer. Buffy's struggle has always been that she couldn't quit; it was her duty to protect others and be the Slayer. Plus, Spike suggests that the battle between vampires and Slayers isn't really good vs. evil-- it's just a battle between two equals, and hey, someone's got to win. IMO, this is entirely wrong-- a Slayer killing a vampire is helping to rid the world of evil, and a vampire killing a Slayer is murder.

Even worse, Buffy walks in at the end and condones all of this. Considering this was the end of the main arc for Wood's character, I can't say I really appreciate him.

[lee]

I actually think LMPTM has a quite clever message.

For a start, a vampire killing a human isnt really murder, not the same way it is for a human.
For one thing, a vampire isnt a human, for them, its just like a human killing a pig for food.
I mean, its like blaming a lion for killing someone, its nature, it isnt evil on the same
level as a truely evil human. Spike was right when he said 'shes a slayer and im a vampire', if Nikkis out there hunting vampires every night then eventually ones probably going to get her.

And i think Spike does feel bad for killing Nikki, its just that he realises he aint
that same guy, and whats he supposed to do, sit around brooding all day?
Wood didnt want or need to hear an apology from Spike.
Can you imagine the thing that killed your mother and left you without parents actually
trying to say sorry? What exactly could Spike have said. That would make Wood ten times madder, Spike needed to make him
understand that he aint the same evil vamp that killed his mom, and that his mom did put
slaying before her son.
Basically imo, Spike told Wood exactly what he needed to hear. and Wood knows it.

[BlasterBoy]

But Spike didn't tell Wood that. He just beat him up. That's saying, "I'm not the monster that killed your mother. I'm the monster that almost killed you." Not much better, IMO.

And, if you remember, Spike snapped Nikki's neck and stole her coat. He didn't feed. It's the same thing as breaking into someone's house, shooting them, and stealing jewelry.

[lee]

Its only the same for a human. Is everyone forgetting vampires are evil by nature?
And so what spike beat hell out of Wood.
Wood had just after gave spike a good beating. Wood actually took Spike, set him up, and attacked him, obviously Spikes gonna be pissed off and slap him around a bit.

[BlasterBoy]

Its only the same for a human. Is everyone forgetting vampires are evil by nature?
And so what spike beat hell out of Wood.
Wood had just after gave spike a good beating. Wood actually took Spike, set him up, and attacked him, obviously Spikes gonna be pissed off and slap him around a bit.

Yes, but it sounds like you're trying to say that slayer killing vampire is murder and vampire killing slayer is not murder because they need this to survive. However, Spike did not need this to survive. He did this for pride and to be evil, which is WRONG. Just cause they're evil by nature does not make up for it. It would be like Buffy saying, "oh, you kill people because everyone else does it. Move along." That doesn't usually happen.

Well, if Spike cared that he killed Nikki, or showed a bit of remorse like Angel. He gets his soul and doesn't care about all the horrible things he did without a soul. That means Spike is just a murderous, sadistic bitch as a human. To apologize for killing Wood's mother, Spike beats him up. Wow.

[ThePoet's<3]

I actually like Robin - once he got beyond his baggage and joined the rest of the world in the "bigger picture" of good against evil. I don't necessarily feel that he shouldn't have wanted a little revenge on Spike but I also think he carried a lot of anger towards his mother and her choosing to be a Slayer over being his mother. He should have trusted Buffy's intuition where Spike was involved.

Other than that he was a fairly likeable fellow. I thought he treated Faith well - and actually showed her that not ALL guys are to out to just to take advantage of her.

[lee]

I dont think a slayer killing a vampire is murder. Vampires are evil and kill people. But thats different
to murder. It dosnt matter if they do it for food or not.
And it may be wrong to a human, but not for a vampire, thats what Wood needed to know,
that the thing that killed his mom was an evil soulless animal whos instinct it was to kill, and that
aint Spike anymore.
And Spike didnt beat up Wood to *apologize for killing his mother*, Spike had already told him
that he dosnt care about her, he beat him up because Wood had just attacked him.
Id love to know what your opinions are on what Spike should have done, because i think its obvious he
done exactly what he need to do in that situation.

[BlasterBoy]

Spike saying he doesn't care that he killed his mother is not really that great for him. He has a soul! I loved Angel's remorse about killing, but Spike doesn't seem to give a damn.

Spike needs to say "I'M SORRY" but tell him that that's not him anymore and he doesn't murder people. He's good and fights for the good guys, and they need to get over their differences. He didn't do that. He just showed off his "present" from killing Nikki to Wood.

[lee]

Wood already knew that Spike wasnt evil anymore and that he was fighting against evil.
Wood basically just found the prime target to unleash years of built up rage and hate on.
Why should Spike have to be the scapegoat for woods fury. whats he meant to do, just let Wood attack him and give some meaningless apology?

And Spike feels bad for all the people he killed, but he's just a different person from Angel, it
just aint his style to sit around brooding and mopeing all day. In fact, some would say Angel
shows a bit too much remorse. Is he ever going to get over it.

But anyway, about Wood. Are you saying if you were in Woods position that you would
want to hear asn apology from Spike? I certainly wouldnt. that wouldnt make one bit of difference.

[LaJaula]

Holtz: I kept your son alive. You murdered mine.
Angel: I was different then.
Holtz: Yes. So was I. You feel remorse. You feel remorse yet you can't express it.
Angel: You want me to say I'm sorry? How can I? It wouldn't mean a thing.
Holtz: It would mean a little. Not much, but it would be something.
Angel: Then I'm sorry. For whatever little it might mean. It's all I've got.

Honestly, that's what I would've liked to see happen.

[BlasterBoy]

If you killed hundreds of people, you would get over it quickly?

Spike doesn't show much remorse. He's crazy in the first three episodes, but after that, he doesn't even change.

Woods anger isn't years of fury; it's anger against the bitch that killed his mother. Spike isn't a scapegoat. He is the bitch that killed his mother. And, I find it disgusting that Spike, WITH A SOUL, is wearing the coat of one of the people he murdered. Does he care at all?

Well, an apology would help. Knowing that Spike actually cares about all the hundreds of people he murdered would help. If Spike killed my dad and Angel killed my mom back in the day and I met with both of him, I'd want to kill Spike much more.

[electroGwen]

"just so we're clear, you guys know you're nuts, right?" (Oz) LOL

[lee]

Really? thats an insane thing to say. id wanna kill them
the same amount.
Thing about Angel/Holtz conversation though, Holtz said it would help a little, so
Angel gave him a meaningless apology. But did it change anything? no. Holtz still wanted revenge.
And why dont you think Spike feels bad for all the killings he did when evil? Is it because
he dosnt go on about it all the time or because he's got more personality than Angel?

[BlasterBoy]

Really? thats an insane thing to say. id wanna kill them
the same amount.
Thing about Angel/Holtz conversation though, Holtz said it would help a little, so
Angel gave him a meaningless apology. But did it change anything? no. Holtz still wanted revenge.
And why dont you think Spike feels bad for all the killings he did when evil? Is it because
he dosnt go on about it all the time or because he's got more personality than Angel?

So, you'd like someone who showed remorse about killing someone the same as someone who showed no remorse at all?

But Spike would never do that. He would be too full of himself to even give a little apology that Woods would've asked for. He's too stuck up.

Angel has a much better personality than Spike, IMO, but that's a whole 'nother topic. I think Spike doesn't show remorse, so I don't know he means it. Souled Spike acts exactly the same as Soulless Spike. When Wood comes, Spike doesn't seem to care that he killed his mom. He carries around her jacket like it's a prize.

[LaJaula]

why dont you think Spike feels bad for all the killings he did when evil?

Because Spike himself says he doesn't care. "I don't give a piss about your mum." Can't get more obvious than that.

Really, I think that the Spike/Wood story is just a very poor retelling of Angel/Holtz. It would have been a much more worthwhile story to have him try to apologize to Buffy for the harm that he's caused her, only hopefully he wouldn't beat her up and say, "I don't give a piss about you! You were the Slayer. I was a vampire."