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  • Becoming Part II

    Hi everyone

    Well I thought KingofCretins was going to open up this thread but he has yet to do so, so I thought I might as well!

    Basically I want to discuss Becoming Part 2 and Xander's decision not to tell Buffy about Willow's spell to restore Angel's soul. Now basically there are usually two sides to this argument. One being of those who believe Xander had no right to lie to Buffy, the other who believes Xander did the right thing to save the world. I find myself stuck between both and basically I want everyone to discuss their view on the matter.

    Now I am usually a pretty strong Xander supporter, mostly because I can't stand how some people view him as useless (even though season seven tried it's hardest late in the season to prove otherwise) just because he didn't have any superpowers. I'm not going to lie and suggest he can do no wrong, I find his hypercritical attitude in Selfless and his automatic hate of Angel before he had ever even lost his soul just because he was a vampire, particularly annoying. However, this is why I have such trouble with Becoming Part 2.

    On the one hand I totally support Xander's decision not to tell Buffy. Basically Angelus was about to threaten the entire world, everyone was in a big danger. Buffy was finally at the place she needed to be at when he first turned and Xander saw how quickly she changed when for that very moment she believed there was hope with Willow. I'm a pretty big supporter of 'the big picture' and many believe that was all there was to the matter, Xander was doing it for the world and nothing else. Yet, I can't accept this and hence the problem.

    We all know Xander has a big old hate for Angel, and I'm talking about Angel here and not Angelus (although he hates him as well.) Xander hates Angel because he was a vampire, because he was jealous of his relationship with Buffy and has said in Passions he was right all along about Angel and killing him, something I strongly disagree with. Are we supposed to believe none of this hate contributed to Xander failing to tell Buffy about Willow's spell? Has Xander ever remained impartial in the past? He certainly wasn't about Anya. If Xander's hate of Angel helped contribute to him disclosing this information from Buffy then I don't support his actions because his motives were tainted. I strongly believe that Angel was just as innocent as any human, by failing to tell Buffy about Willow's restoration spell Xander may have taken a part in murdering Angel a long with Angelus. Such a thing shouldn't be taken lightly, so we have to ask ourselves why did Xander really not tell Buffy?

    I think there is also a general issue amongst the scoobies that they doubt Buffy's abilities and inner strength. I've heard many arguments which state Buffy wouldn't have killed Angelus if she thought there was any hope but I disagree. Buffy killed ended up killing Angel when she had to and had come to the state of mind a while back that Angelus needed to die. The prior episode indicated that Buffy was ready and willing to kill Angelus when she was sick of waiting for Willow's spell to kick in. Xander underestimated Buffy's inner strength.

    So what are your thoughts? Do you agree with Xander's actions or are against them?

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  • #2
    Well I, like Joss am somewhat on the fence.

    For a second, I will look purely at the logic of the arguments, taking Xander out of the equation.

    Even before Buffy knew there was a chance that Angel could be brought back Buffy had trouble finishing off Angelus and she certainly was staving in Becoming part 1. She got out the stake but would she have staked him? I honestly don't know but it can be questioned. We cannot use events subsequent to an argument to counter the logic of the argument in question unless there is evidence prior to the argument which supports it. In other words it wasn't a given that Buffy would have had the strength to stop Angelus in time seen as she didn't manage to stop him killing Miss Calender.

    Now back to Xander, I don't know if he stated what he stated because it was best for mankind. I must say, that I tend to look at character history. Xander (unlike say Wesley) isn't really a big picture thinker. He was ready to defend his morally ambiguous lover but wanted to comdemn Buffy's. He's a subjective heart decision maker and one of the dangers of that is hypocrisy. I believe Xander's lie, I believe was motivated more by his feelings towards Angel(us) rather than the good of mankind.

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    • #3
      I too am unsure about this.

      On one hand I truly want to believe that Xander was helping his friend by giving her the support and impetus to kill something that she loved for the sake of the world. She trusted Xander, Willow and Giles more than anyone else when it came to her slaying, and naturally words of support for something that she'd had such trouble coming to terms with would have been really welcome.

      On the other hand Xander is still in love with Buffy himself at this point and I don't think he'd grown up enough to see the consequentions of his actions if Willow had said (before season 7) that she didn't say those words that Xander relayed to her. This brings me to my second point about whether he was trying to help - Xander didn't actually say to Buffy that it was him saying "Kick his ass", he passed the blame onto Willow. That to me sounds like he would've allowed Willow to take the heat for it if it came out - which isn't a very heroic thing to do.

      Mostly, I think he didn't really think about it too much. He intended to tell her what Willow had actually said, but something clicked in his brain and made him change his mind at the very last second. Whether that click was a good intention or a jealous one...hmmm... can't decide.
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      • #4
        Originally posted by ciderdrinker View Post
        I too am unsure about this.

        On one hand I truly want to believe that Xander was helping his friend by giving her the support and impetus to kill something that she loved for the sake of the world. She trusted Xander, Willow and Giles more than anyone else when it came to her slaying, and naturally words of support for something that she'd had such trouble coming to terms with would have been really welcome.

        On the other hand Xander is still in love with Buffy himself at this point and I don't think he'd grown up enough to see the consequentions of his actions if Willow had said (before season 7) that she didn't say those words that Xander relayed to her. This brings me to my second point about whether he was trying to help - Xander didn't actually say to Buffy that it was him saying "Kick his ass", he passed the blame onto Willow. That to me sounds like he would've allowed Willow to take the heat for it if it came out - which isn't a very heroic thing to do.

        Mostly, I think he didn't really think about it too much. He intended to tell her what Willow had actually said, but something clicked in his brain and made him change his mind at the very last second. Whether that click was a good intention or a jealous one...hmmm... can't decide.
        I personally dont think Xander ever stopped loving Buffy. Even in season 7 he was showing interest like in the episode "Him" where Buffy tells Dawn that she doesnt want a new cheerleading outfit and Xander makes a remark about not making hasty decisions. He clearly wanted to see Buffy in that outfit

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        • #5
          I think it's a tremendous disservice to Xander to even suggest jealousy motivated him. We saw, repeatedly, him overlook any jealousy he had toward Angel for Buffy's sake. He turned to Angel for help saving her life in "Prophecy Girl". He comforted Buffy with words he probably didn't believe in "Phases". When he did take a hardline position on bringing Angel back, his reasons were pretty upfront that it had to do with the threat he posed.

          I think he saved Buffy's life by not telling her, and probably saved the world as well.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
            I think it's a tremendous disservice to Xander to even suggest jealousy motivated him. We saw, repeatedly, him overlook any jealousy he had toward Angel for Buffy's sake. He turned to Angel for help saving her life in "Prophecy Girl". He comforted Buffy with words he probably didn't believe in "Phases". When he did take a hardline position on bringing Angel back, his reasons were pretty upfront that it had to do with the threat he posed.

            I think he saved Buffy's life by not telling her, and probably saved the world as well.
            I don't think it was so much jealousy but just a general hate for Angelus. When Willow as about to destroy the world Xander didn't vow to kill her, instead he tried reasoning with her. With Angelus he wouldn't accept allowing Willow to try and restore Angel's soul, instead he vouched for Buffy killing him and never realising the possibility. Xander underestimated Buffy's inner strength, she would have killed him- infact she did kill him that very episode when she needed to. Whilst I could understand the logic that Xander didn't want to take any chances, was it really his place to lie to Buffy?

            I can't accept that Xander was completely impartial on the matter and that all he cared about was the fate of the world and nothing else. He had so much hate for Angelus and for Angel, and as I said in my previous post was pretty much condeming Angel (who was an innocent in all this) to death. I'm not sure wether I could support that, considering Xander knew all about the curse and how Angel wasn't the one trying to destroy the world. Tell me that wasn't done out of hate.

            I really don't believe that by not telling Buffy he saved her life and the world. Buffy was able to make the hard decision, a much harder one considering she ended up killing Angel and not Angelus. To suggest if Xander had told her this information she wouldn't have been able to go through with it IMO is an underestimation on Buffy's part. Buffy made it clear in the prior episode she was willing to kill Angelus after being sick and tired of waiting for Willow's spell to kick in.

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            • #7
              Based on Buffy's history, especially what was known to Xander, I feel safe in assuming that it was probable that Buffy would have gotten herself killed in that fight against Angelus while waiting around all dreamy-eyed for the curse to kick in.

              Going in with her mind focused on defeating him, he still almost put a sword through her eye.

              We had already seen her deliberately fail to stake him at least twice since turning, and other instances where the mere mention of him distracted her so badly that she almost was killed (Xander had to save her life in one such instance, in "Phases").

              Buffy just flat out wasn't made of very stern stuff when it came to dealing with Angel. Yeah, she did what she had to, but it wasn't a choice at that point. It was already a moot point when Angel got his soul back; he was going to be killed to save the world the moment the sword was pulled.

              I watch that scene, and I see Xander make a decision. When he mentions Willow, Buffy breaks stride and stops to stare at him all hopeful and in no way ready to fight anymore. I think that's what convinced him that Buffy didn't need to know what Willow was doing.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                Based on Buffy's history, especially what was known to Xander, I feel safe in assuming that it was probable that Buffy would have gotten herself killed in that fight against Angelus while waiting around all dreamy-eyed for the curse to kick in.
                Really? Because Buffy was clearly all dreamy-eyed in Surprise until she was pissed enough to beat the hell out of Angel- only then she couldn't kill him. However, since Passions (all known to Xander) Buffy had established she was ready to kill Angel. So why would she suddenly choke up now? And since when can't Buffy defeat Angel- even when she was dreamy-eyed at the beginning?

                Going in with her mind focused on defeating him, he still almost put a sword through her eye.
                Circumstances could have been completely different though. Our actions are determined by how we feel, if Buffy had learnt there was a way of bringing Angel back her whole game plan could have been slightly different- therefore we can't assume Angelus would have ever gotten her in such a situation because events would have played out differently.

                We had already seen her deliberately fail to stake him at least twice since turning, and other instances where the mere mention of him distracted her so badly that she almost was killed (Xander had to save her life in one such instance, in "Phases").
                Again, Buffy had gotten to a stage where she was prepared to kill Angelus, she agreed with Xander in Passions when he said they should. This was after Phases so really Xander could have used some logic in believing the mere mention of Angel's name wouldn't cause Buffy to freeze in a fight. Especially when Xander had seen Buffy fixated on finding and dusting him even though she was unwell, agreed with him that Angelus needed to die and with Xander by her side had made an effort to look for him and tell his lackey's to tell Angelus she wants it over with.

                Buffy just flat out wasn't made of very stern stuff when it came to dealing with Angel. Yeah, she did what she had to, but it wasn't a choice at that point. It was already a moot point when Angel got his soul back; he was going to be killed to save the world the moment the sword was pulled.
                You said it yourself, the decision had already been made that Angel or Angelus would need to die if the sword was to be pulled. Buffy demonstrated she could indeed go through with it. So if it was a moot point to Xander that he and Buffy knew this was the only way, why couldn't he trust Buffy to do the right thing if needn't be? Why couldn't Xander give Buffy the information if he knew she'd dust Angel if it was too late?

                I watch that scene, and I see Xander make a decision. When he mentions Willow, Buffy breaks stride and stops to stare at him all hopeful and in no way ready to fight anymore. I think that's what convinced him that Buffy didn't need to know what Willow was doing.
                Well Buffy wasn't exactly dreamy-eyed in that scene, she said pretty firmly "tell me what" still in that space she needed to be in. Buffy had went to stop Angelus from hurting anyone the prior episode when she knew Willow's spell could kick in and stated to everyone in the library that she'd kill him if she had to, but that Willow was her backup plan. So why is Xander so incapable of trusting that Buffy could do this again, especially when Giles was being held captive?

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                • #9
                  I,m so mad buz of what Xander did i mean i know he was afraid for Buffy's saftey but that wasnt his decision not telling Buffy what Willow told him.I know he didnt like Angel for so many reason but that was a very huge mistake & til this day i kinda dislike him a little bcuz of it.
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                  • #10
                    Really? Because Buffy was clearly all dreamy-eyed in Surprise until she was pissed enough to beat the hell out of Angel- only then she couldn't kill him. However, since Passions (all known to Xander) Buffy had established she was ready to kill Angel. So why would she suddenly choke up now? And since when can't Buffy defeat Angel- even when she was dreamy-eyed at the beginning?
                    Emphasis added to the six most important words. Buffy was great at saying she was ready to kill Angelus and terrible at actually doing it. Now, in "Passion", this may just have been bad staging, but it seems obvious that Buffy could have staked Angelus (again) very quickly and jumped down to save Giles. Certainly if the situation had been an MOTW week vampire that's exactly what she would have done. Buffy can fight and ever overcome Angel -- but she couldn't finish him. If you were scouting her for the Mayor, for instance, would you have reported it otherwise?

                    Circumstances could have been completely different though. Our actions are determined by how we feel, if Buffy had learnt there was a way of bringing Angel back her whole game plan could have been slightly different- therefore we can't assume Angelus would have ever gotten her in such a situation because events would have played out differently.
                    Buffy's stalling engagement in "Becoming, Part I" was a failure, to say the least. And Angelus himself was stalling as well, so even worse. In the mansion, he'd have been trying to kill her and she would be trying to ward him off. It's not unfair to use a little bit of hindsight to see if Xander might have done right -- how did it work out for Buffy in "Two To Go"? Or any other time she played not to lose?

                    Again, Buffy had gotten to a stage where she was prepared to kill Angelus, she agreed with Xander in Passions when he said they should. This was after Phases so really Xander could have used some logic in believing the mere mention of Angel's name wouldn't cause Buffy to freeze in a fight. Especially when Xander had seen Buffy fixated on finding and dusting him even though she was unwell, agreed with him that Angelus needed to die and with Xander by her side had made an effort to look for him and tell his lackey's to tell Angelus she wants it over with.
                    And again, there is what Buffy says about killing Angelus and what Buffy does about killing Angelus. She had no fewer than two chances to stake him without resistance, and, if you want to be tougher, she had another great opportunity in "I Only Have Eyes For You" -- but when the possession ended, she was more hopeful that Angel was back than opportunistic to deal with her enemy.

                    You said it yourself, the decision had already been made that Angel or Angelus would need to die if the sword was to be pulled. Buffy demonstrated she could indeed go through with it. So if it was a moot point to Xander that he and Buffy knew this was the only way, why couldn't he trust Buffy to do the right thing if needn't be? Why couldn't Xander give Buffy the information if he knew she'd dust Angel if it was too late?
                    It wasn't a moot point when he made the decision. It wasn't moot until the sword came out. I tend to assume that Buffy had every intention of getting to Angel before he pulled the sword but couldn't get past the other vampires in the mansion fast enough. I only point out that it's moot because there was nothing Xander was going to do that was going to save Angel, except perhaps get Buffy killed.

                    Well Buffy wasn't exactly dreamy-eyed in that scene, she said pretty firmly "tell me what" still in that space she needed to be in. Buffy had went to stop Angelus from hurting anyone the prior episode when she knew Willow's spell could kick in and stated to everyone in the library that she'd kill him if she had to, but that Willow was her backup plan. So why is Xander so incapable of trusting that Buffy could do this again, especially when Giles was being held captive?
                    Buffy's reaction to the mention of Willow was very meaningful, from a body language standpoint. She had been having an entire conversation with Xander at a powerwalk already, she was ready to fight. She was knocked clean out of her mindset by mentioning Willow in the context of Buffy's "present for Angel" remark. It was her reaction to Theresa all over again.

                    Buffy said she'd stop Angelus from hurting everyone and that she'd kill him if she had to with Willow being the backup plan. But, again... that's what she said. What did she *do*? Let's ask Angelus:

                    Angelus: Jeez, is it me, or is your heart not in this?
                    He doesn't do much to validate what Buffy has said, that she is going to kill him, and that Willow is the backup plan. Rather, Willow is Buffy's first option.

                    I,m so mad buz of what Xander did i mean i know he was afraid for Buffy's saftey but that wasnt his decision not telling Buffy what Willow told him.I know he didnt like Angel for so many reason but that was a very huge mistake & til this day i kinda dislike him a little bcuz of it.
                    Xander is not obligated to defer to Buffy on decisions that might get him or the people he loves killed. If it was Giles that did it, nobody would even question it.
                    Last edited by KingofCretins; 18-06-07, 08:54 AM.
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                    • #11
                      So does that give him the right to hide this information from Buffy,why he didnt think about Buffy's reaction about this lie,the lie that let killing the one she loved.

                      Why Xander feel that he's entitled to protect the people he love while Buffy cant,That's unfair for all of them i know but i think Xander should told Buffy Willow's message & let Buffy handle it,she would know what to do more than anyone else.
                      Last edited by Salvation; 18-06-07, 09:08 AM.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                        Emphasis added to the six most important words. Buffy was great at saying she was ready to kill Angelus and terrible at actually doing it. Now, in "Passion", this may just have been bad staging, but it seems obvious that Buffy could have staked Angelus (again) very quickly and jumped down to save Giles. Certainly if the situation had been an MOTW week vampire that's exactly what she would have done. Buffy can fight and ever overcome Angel -- but she couldn't finish him. If you were scouting her for the Mayor, for instance, would you have reported it otherwise?
                        After Innocence and up until Passions Buffy had never actually stated she was prepared to kill Angelus. She states it in Passions for the first real time, when she has finally accepted what she needed to do. Since then she has never been in an opportunity when she has been able to kill Angelus, successfully. In Passions Buffy is beating Angel senseless until he distracts her by saying "are you going to let your old man just burn?" This distracts Buffy, long enough for Angel to throw her over the edge and run for it. Buffy didn't have enough time to see Giles and make a decision on Angelus, he never gave her that opportunity.

                        Buffy's stalling engagement in "Becoming, Part I" was a failure, to say the least. And Angelus himself was stalling as well, so even worse. In the mansion, he'd have been trying to kill her and she would be trying to ward him off. It's not unfair to use a little bit of hindsight to see if Xander might have done right -- how did it work out for Buffy in "Two To Go"? Or any other time she played not to lose?
                        But by the end of the fight Buffy's mindset was completely different. Yes, Buffy was stalling at the beginning of the fight and yes she was loosing as a result of this. However, just before Buffy realises it is a trap she is sick of stalling, sick of loosing and removes Mr Pointy, "Lets finish this you and me!" Now this is whilst knowing Willow is trying to restore Angel's soul, yet Buffy won't die whilst waiting for this to happen. So why would Buffy suddenly do a big back flip the following episode if she learnt Willow was planning to restore Angel's soul again? Wouldn't Buffy have the same mind set that was reached at the end of her prior encounter with Angelus? Which was, Willow is the backup plan, I'm not going to die waiting? It doesn't make sense that Buffy would have to go through all this process again?


                        And again, there is what Buffy says about killing Angelus and what Buffy does about killing Angelus. She had no fewer than two chances to stake him without resistance, and, if you want to be tougher, she had another great opportunity in "I Only Have Eyes For You" -- but when the possession ended, she was more hopeful that Angel was back than opportunistic to deal with her enemy.
                        I think Buffy was more in shock than anything else in I Only Have Eyes For You and think it is being a bit tough to include that scene


                        It wasn't a moot point when he made the decision. It wasn't moot until the sword came out. I tend to assume that Buffy had every intention of getting to Angel before he pulled the sword but couldn't get past the other vampires in the mansion fast enough. I only point out that it's moot because there was nothing Xander was going to do that was going to save Angel, except perhaps get Buffy killed.
                        Or was part of it about wanting Angel killed? Notice I am making the distinction between Angelus and Angel here. Long before the Scoobies ever met Angelus, Xander hated Angel. Xander told Buffy she should kill him, and was hardly upset when he went missing in Surprise. Aside from the jealous thing, which I concede isn't the main issue here, Xander hated Angel because of what he was. Now by lying to Buffy Xander was condeming not only Angelus but Angel to death. How can this be right? What did Angel ever do to Xander to warrant this? Does Angel being a vampire give Xander this right? It technically is murder.

                        Buffy's reaction to the mention of Willow was very meaningful, from a body language standpoint. She had been having an entire conversation with Xander at a powerwalk already, she was ready to fight. She was knocked clean out of her mindset by mentioning Willow in the context of Buffy's "present for Angel" remark. It was her reaction to Theresa all over again.
                        Except a great deal had happened between the Theresa incident and the place in which Buffy was at now, again Xander isn't giving Buffy enough credit.

                        Buffy said she'd stop Angelus from hurting everyone and that she'd kill him if she had to with Willow being the backup plan. But, again... that's what she said. What did she *do*? Let's ask Angelus:
                        He doesn't do much to validate what Buffy has said, that she is going to kill him, and that Willow is the backup plan. Rather, Willow is Buffy's first option.
                        Again I say, initially in the fight Buffy was like this and I completely agree. However, as the fight was coming to a close Buffy decided she wasn't going to die waiting for Willow's spell to kick in. She removes the stake and tells Angelus she wants to finish this, she is done waiting. So why would Buffy, after learning Willow was going to try and restore Angel's soul again, suddenly do a massive backflip and go right back to the beginning? She had already reached the mindset she needed to be in, Willow was a backup plan now- Buffy was plan A. She had reached this conclusion before realising it was a trap, why would she forget this in Becoming Part II?

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                        • #13
                          So does hat give him the right to hide this information from Buffy,why he didnt think about Buffy's reaction about this lie,the lie that let killing the one she loved.

                          Why Xander feel that he's entitled to protect the people he love while Buffy cant,That's unfair for all of them i know but i think Xander should told Buffy Willow's message & let Buffy handle it,she would know what to do more than anyone else.
                          It's not Buffy's decision to make in any special way anymore than it was Xander's. They were trying to save the world, *not* Angel. The curse was means to an end, stopping him from awakening Acathla.

                          There's also something else to think about. Buffy almost certainly knew about the lie almost immediately after things played out in the mansion. She knows Willow attempted the spell again because *it was successful*. And there can be no doubt that that means that Willow probably did *not* say to 'kick his ass'. Unless Buffy's not all that bright, she knew exactly what happened.

                          When it comes up in "Selfless", I actually interpret that moment as Buffy and Xander being on the same page, and Willow being the only one learning something she didn't already know.

                          Wouldn't Buffy have the same mind set that was reached at the end of her prior encounter with Angelus? Which was, Willow is the backup plan, I'm not going to die waiting? It doesn't make sense that Buffy would have to go through all this process again?
                          So, here's the rub: why *did* she need to know, then? If your position here is that she would have been unquestionably committed to killing Angelus without giving undue consideration to giving Willow a chance to complete the curse, what benefit does she get from knowing? The only value that knowledge carries is for it to change Buffy's plan. That was the explicit purpose in Willow wanting Xander to share it, so that Buffy could plan accordingly.

                          If you truly believe Buffy wouldn't have let that slow her down or changed her commitment to take down Angelus, then knowing about the curse didn't matter. That brings the topic basically all back to Xander's behavior vis a vis Xander. If the information wouldn't have slowed Buffy down at all, there was no apparent importance to her having it.
                          Last edited by KingofCretins; 18-06-07, 09:14 AM.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                            So, here's the rub: why *did* she need to know, then? If your position here is that she would have been unquestionably committed to killing Angelus without giving undue consideration to giving Willow a chance to complete the curse, what benefit does she get from knowing? The only value that knowledge carries is for it to change Buffy's plan. That was the explicit purpose in Willow wanting Xander to share it, so that Buffy could plan accordingly.

                            If you truly believe Buffy wouldn't have let that slow her down or changed her commitment to take down Angelus, then knowing about the curse didn't matter. That brings the topic basically all back to Xander's behavior vis a vis Xander. If the information wouldn't have slowed Buffy down at all, there was no apparent importance to her having it.
                            Well here's the thing, it isn't so much about Buffy needing to know but more did she have the right to know? Did Xander have the right to lie? What were his reasons for lying? That is where it becomes murky for me, that is where I have a problem. As I wrote in my initial post, on the one hand I see Xander logically trying to save the world, on the other I can't ignore his hate for Angel that it wouldn't cloud his judgement. If this is done out of hate then is it right? What gives Xander the right to make a decision, trying his best to kill an innocent? Does the fact Angel is a vampire make this ok?

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                            • #15
                              ^^ I agree & Xander said it many times that he didnt like Vampires peroid,maybe that's why he thought he have the right to do & say what he see's right & increasing the chance of killing Angelus/Angel & save the world.
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                              • #16
                                Well here's the thing, it isn't so much about Buffy needing to know but more did she have the right to know? Did Xander have the right to lie? What were his reasons for lying? That is where it becomes murky for me, that is where I have a problem. As I wrote in my initial post, on the one hand I see Xander logically trying to save the world, on the other I can't ignore his hate for Angel that it wouldn't cloud his judgement. If this is done out of hate then is it right? What gives Xander the right to make a decision, trying his best to kill an innocent? Does the fact Angel is a vampire make this ok?
                                I don't think Buffy had a right to know, actually. The spell didn't require her permission or consent. She wouldn't have had a right to complain had Willow refused to try to do it, either. Xander does have a right to lie about it if that's what he thinks is necessary for the good fight. Whether it seems likely or not, he's a champion, too. Good against evil is his business, also. We see Giles make these kinds of unilateral decisions all the time.

                                I don't think his hate for Angel is a factor at all. There was no Angel. Angel isn't here, Angel went away, Angel gone, to borrow from Fight Club. You can't kill an innocent that isn't actually around. Willow's spell was not exactly a sure thing at the time, either. Strangely enough, I think Angel would have backed Xander up on the decision, and Giles as well.
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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                  I don't think his hate for Angel is a factor at all. There was no Angel. Angel isn't here, Angel went away, Angel gone, to borrow from Fight Club. You can't kill an innocent that isn't actually around. Willow's spell was not exactly a sure thing at the time, either. Strangely enough, I think Angel would have backed Xander up on the decision, and Giles as well.
                                  We know that, Willow knew that, Buffy knew that but did Xander? Remember Xander's rant from Passions? "I'm sorry but I hated Angel long before the rest of you jumped on the bandwaggon so I think I deserve a little something for not telling you I told you so long before now!"

                                  As you said there was no Angel, Xander seemed rather incapable of making the distinction between Angelus and Angel, and I doubt this was because he was intellectually challenged, but rather consumed by his hate for vampires.

                                  This issue is again raised in Revelations when he fails to make the distinction between Angelus and Angel and gets Faith to help him try and kill Angel. Again are his actions right? Angel is a vampire with a soul, so why should the fact Angel is a vampire make it alright for Xander to plot to murder him?

                                  I don't think Buffy had a right to know, actually. The spell didn't require her permission or consent. She wouldn't have had a right to complain had Willow refused to try to do it, either. Xander does have a right to lie about it if that's what he thinks is necessary for the good fight. Whether it seems likely or not, he's a champion, too. Good against evil is his business, also. We see Giles make these kinds of unilateral decisions all the time.
                                  Buffy in Selfless;

                                  "I am the law"

                                  Not a popular theory amongst some fans, but I agree with her. The slayer is the law in these circumstances.
                                  Last edited by vampmogs; 18-06-07, 09:44 AM.

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                                  • #18
                                    So you think that Xander was right i disagree with you,i think that was selfish & stupid from him .Good agains Evil was his bussines yes but that doesnt mean Hurting Buffy & hiding things from her,i know that might didnt help Buffy at all but i think that was it's best of Buffy knewing instead of thinking all the years after that was her Friends decision to KICK ANGEL ASS.
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                                    • #19
                                      "Revelations" is a fine example of Buffy being unambiguously wrong.

                                      Xander was pretty explicit at that point that he knew the risk Angel posed was a conditional one. I think Xander might have actually been a bit more intuitive than the others about Angel's curse, with regard to realizing that 'perfect happiness' and 'sex' aren't necessarily the same thing. Just having him around maximized the chances that he'd turn again.

                                      I don't think he was out of line to tell Faith what he did, either. He didn't openly contradict Buffy's explanation. It was Machiavellian, perhaps, but it was honest. Faith made up her own mind.
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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                        "Revelations" is a fine example of Buffy being unambiguously wrong.

                                        Xander was pretty explicit at that point that he knew the risk Angel posed was a conditional one. I think Xander might have actually been a bit more intuitive than the others about Angel's curse, with regard to realizing that 'perfect happiness' and 'sex' aren't necessarily the same thing. Just having him around maximized the chances that he'd turn again.
                                        I tend to disagree. Xander seemed as oblivious to Angel's curse as any of the Scoobies; "What until the next time you give Angel a happy?" Xander seemed to see the sex as the trigger.

                                        And sure, having Angel around does maximise the chances of Angel turning again, the same way in which having Anya around maximised the chances of her cursing someone again.

                                        It isn't Angel's fault he is in this predicament, but does this mean that he should be killed because of it? Why not kill anyone with aids, having them around maximises the chances of someone else being infected?

                                        I don't think he was out of line to tell Faith what he did, either. He didn't openly contradict Buffy's explanation. It was Machiavellian, perhaps, but it was honest. Faith made up her own mind.
                                        I don't think even Xander believed his "Faith's a big girl, came to her own conclusion" line Xander didn't explain everything to her, he left out very important details and did this intentionally. Xander wasn't exactly itching to tell Faith the specific details of Angel's curse, or how he wasn't the one who killed all those people but rather Angelus was.

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