Who really sired Spike?

[tokyomonster]

in S02E03, "School Hard", unless I understood incorrectly, Spike says Angel was his sire, but if I remember correctly, in a flash back in a later episode, Spike is sired by Drusilla..

This has probably already been discussed, but I'm lost..

Also, hi

[sueworld]

For some reason Joss decided to change it. Maybe because they preferd a women siring him instead of a man. I'm tempted to say it's because they thought it might be taken as being a wee bit too 'gay'.

[tokyomonster]

Yikes, quick response. Thanks

[KingofCretins]

There's really no evidence that such a consideration drove the change, but Drusilla sired him. The fanwank of it is that referring to Angel as sire was more of an honorific, as Angel was the boss of him, tutored him in vampiric bastardy.

[NileQT87]

also... drusilla was rather incapable of teaching william. angelus may well have been spike's sire in the sense that drusilla could only do the changing. she doesn't have the mental ability to follow through in the ways of the old-fashioned sire/child relationship. if angelus hadn't picked up where drusilla left off, william would have been not much better than your average restfield cemetery stake-fodder.

that's the biggest difference between the vampires who have been around for a long time and the newbies who get staked right out of the grave. the old ones all had families with sires who met them at their graves, and then taught them.

drusilla was the physical sire, angelus was the mental sire.

[tangent]

There's also a theory I heard that from a lineage point of view only the male vamps in the succesion count as sires.

It's horribly sexist but kind of believable when you think we're talking about centuries old vamps.

[sueworld]

Try telling Darla that!

She very much seemed to 'rule the roost' and I can't see her allwong that kind of thing, unless it suited her.

[tangent]

Well I did say from a lineage point of view and not a day to day who wears the trousers point of view.

And I think where the Master was concerned whe would probably fall into line.

[blue_peroxide]

For some reason Joss decided to change it. Maybe because they preferd a women siring him instead of a man. I'm tempted to say it's because they thought it might be taken as being a wee bit too 'gay'.

Back in "School Hard" Spike's story wasn't meant to be a long-term one, obviously not as more than a season, it wasn't so important. So why not make Angelus his sire? (The line was good - "Man, you were my sire, you were my yoda" wasnt it). But later, as Spike's story unfolded I guess they thought the Dru storyline would work much better - and it does. Angelus and Darla telling crazy Dru to make herself her own playmate and her picking innocent romantic wannabe-poet William *sighs*
And, indeed, had Angelus really been his sire I do agree it would have been even more 'gay', their relationship really is somewhat gay-ish anyway

[sueworld]

And, indeed, had Angelus really been his sire I do agree it would have been even more 'gay', their relationship really is somewhat gay-ish anyway

Sounds fine by me! Seriously, I think it would have worked just a well if they had put a bit of thought into it.

[blue_peroxide]

Actually, looking at your avatar I'm starting to think they should have sticked with Angel being Spike's sire... *mind starts to wander*damn this torchwood scene was really hot*

[kana]

"Angel made Dru who made Spike. SIRE means you came from their line, not just that they made you"

Joss' official story.

[ThePoet's<3]

Drusilla sired Spike. However, honor always went to Angelus because he sired Drusilla. Also, I don't think Angelus was ever pleased with what Drusilla did (unless it was some forturne or turn of event he could profit from or beat the "folks w/the wooden spikes"). It was a foolhardy turn of events according to him - "the first idiot who passes by".

I think it was also a "dig" at Angel - an attempt to hold him responsible for the evil Spike got into.

[NileQT87]

actually, darla was the one who said "or you could just pick the first drooling idiot that passes by."

darla never had a single nice thing to say about william and seemed to care for him the least. particularly getting mad about being chased into the mine shaft after william went around driving railroad spikes through peoples' heads.

angelus didn't mind william once he had become as sick and disgusting as he was, but he didn't like him at all at first. william probably survived his early years around angelus and darla mostly because of drusilla. william was more or less one of drusilla's playthings in angelus and darla's eyes, until spike emerged, and then angelus warmed up to him a bit. darla never did--and she didn't stick around drusilla and spike after the boxer rebellion. darla probably put up with drusilla only because of angelus, as well. darla got a little annoyed with drusilla in a lot of the flashbacks.

in fact, darla only had 4 reactions ever to spike... and they were all of distaste ("drooling idiot", being driven into the mine shaft, spike feeding on the gypsy family and ruining her leverage) or a backhanded compliment she used against angel (about spike killing xin rong while angel was saving missionaries).

and actually, darla's leaving to run off to the master after a spat with angelus is actually hinted at--she gets mad about getting called "grandmum" and angelus snickering about it. probably was really that julie benz was unavailable for destiny, but they actually had a way out with the 1880 darla flashback.

[sandpaperback]

I consider the fact that he says uses the word "were" in "you were my sire..." means that it must have been a teacher type thing otherwise he would still be his sire.

[lee]

"Angel made Dru who made Spike. SIRE means you came from their line, not just that they made you"

Joss' official story.

When s2 was on, Joss definetly intended that Angel was Spikes sire.
The lines ''You were my sire, man,'' and '' Whats a sire?'' ''its the vamp that made you'' ''man, you got alot of neck in your day''
Joss just didnt know Spike or Angel (or Dru and Darla) would still be around for s5. he just changed it to what he thought would be a better story.
I mean, even as far as s4/s1 In the dark, Spike calls Angel ''Im gonna stake me old sire myself''.

[kana]

When s2 was on, Joss definetly intended that Angel was Spikes sire.
The lines ''You were my sire, man,'' and '' Whats a sire?'' ''its the vamp that made you'' ''man, you got alot of neck in your day''
Joss just didnt know Spike or Angel (or Dru and Darla) would still be around for s5. he just changed it to what he thought would be a better story.
I mean, even as far as s4/s1 In the dark, Spike calls Angel ''Im gonna stake me old sire myself''.

I'm literally quoting Joss. He may have said what he said to cover his tracks. Possibility.

[Pandora's_Box]

I'm literally quoting Joss. He may have said what he said to cover his tracks. Possibility.

I'm feeling more like Joss said what he said to cover HIS tracks. In my opinion, he just changed his mind, he was maybe afraid the Spike/Angel story went on Gay road. Which he changed his mind about imo, cause there's a lot of sexual tension between them, like the scene where they met for the first time in some Angel's flashback...

[stormwreath]

Lots of people seem convinced that Joss is nervous about showing Spike "We were never intimate - except that one time" and Angel in a potentially gayish relationship. Hmm.

Personally, I think it's more the incest squick. If Spike is Angel's 'son', then Buffy having sex with both of them gets into Connoresque levels of ick. Inserting Drusilla between them gives a nice safe space of removal.

Also regarding tangent's comment "from a lineage point of view only the male vamps in the succesion count as sires" - I'm not sure there's any evidence for that, but then again, the dictionary definition of sire is "father"... or when used as a verb, it's "to become the male parent of a child by impregnating a female". It's a pretty gendered word. The female equivalent would be 'dam'.

[sueworld]

Personally, I think it's more the incest squick. If Spike is Angel's 'son', then Buffy having sex with both of them gets into Connoresque levels of ick. Inserting Drusilla between them gives a nice safe space of removal.

Nah, I doubt If they thought about that element, or even saw it in that way really. I still think the 'oh we can't do that because it has gay overtones' is nearer the mark myself.

Even the 'that one time' remark was just a throwaway 'bone'' tossed at the slash fans as an after thought.