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  • Buffy getting thrown out of her house

    Hey guys !

    Just been thinking about that episode when all the scoobies and potential slayers kcik buffy out of her OWN house.. i was just thinking what do you think about that do you agree with them for doing it ?.

    Or do you think they were totally out of order and had no right to do it... ?

    Dawn was the one that did it for me, buffy even died for Dawn and she just throws it back in her face by humilating bufyf and kicking her out of the house..

    Anyway what do you think ?

    Plus do you guys like my avatar made it myself... im just a newbie at photoshop but wanted to create something.. what do you think ? c&c . Thanks x

  • #2
    Drew Z. Greenberg: I'm gonna take a page out of the Steve DeKnight Handbook (no, not the chapter on Proper Ear Wax Removal, the other part) and actively not engage in a debate about my work. Either you liked it or you didn't, and I'm glad to see there's a healthy representation of both sides here. I will say that we felt we had planted the seeds for this development (quite well) earlier in the season and that Buffy's attitude has been growing increasingly and visibly in this direction for some time, most notably showing itself first in Conversations with Dead People. You may not agree. That's your right. I mean, you'd be wrong, but it's your right. Ha, ha, I kid. There is no right and wrong. Just Drew's Way and Everything Else. Oh, look, there I go again. Kidding again. Mostly.

    - - -

    Jane Espenson: But did you also understand sort of where they were, with her walking in and saying "We're going in", and they'd already had all these losses... I mean, did the other side of the argument seem to have merit?
    [...]
    Drew Z. Greenberg: You know, I've been heartened to see that most people have chosen either one side or the other, but I've not really seen one side outweighing the other in terms of number of people falling on either side. It's a thing where we set out specifically to create a debate, and I think that's what we did, and that makes me happy.
    Jane Espenson: The moment that was supposed to sell her actually leaving the house was her saying "If I'm not going to be the leader, I can't stay here to watch somebody else being the leader, because I think you're making a mistake", and I'm not sure if in the editing that got a hit.
    Drew Z. Greenberg: I agree with you, I'm not sure that it was necessarily in there. I think that certainly was what we were going for.
    Jane Espenson: I mean, I was listening for it and I heard it, but I remember thinking "Gee, I hope America got that", because that was the reasoning that got her out the door.
    Drew Z. Greenberg: Yeah, it's not just her being kicked out, it's also her walking out. It was a little bit of a combo.

    (And yeah, the shooting script is a zillion times better than the aired version.)

    (set made by Francy for me)

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    • #3
      OMG I hate this episode! What's funny though up until that scene it's alright but it's that scene that screws over the entire episode. I really wished Buffy would have kicked everyone else out of her house. They had no right to kick Buffy out. Buffy's the one who decided to take on the task of taking care of all these girls. She didn't have to but she did out of the goodness of her heart. Giles was the one who brought all of the Potentials to Buffy's house why didn't he take care of them? I just want Buffy to tell them to go f**k off and to get the hell out of her house but she never does. I have this hope that my dvd will somehow change when I watch and I'll actually get the scene I want but it never happens and I'm sadly disappointed and pissed off at the end every time. I agree with the Dawn thing. It's like, did you forget all the stuff Buffy has done for you you little ingrate?! That adds to my annoyance with Dawn. She was good up until that point this season but once that happened I'm like, oh hell nah! This is the episode I officially despise all the Potentials, especially Rona. She deserved to get backhanded. Gah, even just thinking about this episode gets me irritated.

      Your avie looks good btw.
      T _A _T _E _R _S'____ W _O _R _L _D

      Proud recipient of the "Vagenis Award of Excellence"

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      • #4
        Well, whenever I watch this episode I cant bear watching this scene because it's so sad that they betray Buffy like that especially Dawn. Buffy did give up her life for her and If I could go back in time, I wouldve just thrown Dawn in the energy and be done with it. And the fact that they did it after sending Spike away was Completely annoying. I mean out of all the people, Willow, Xander, Giles, Spike is the one who stands up for her. I Just think that yeah its her house and she should start making everyone pay rent or get the hell out.
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        • #5
          Uh sorry...i am in the other camp. Look please don't get me wrong, there was a kind of is this really necessary feel to the whole thing even with all that was going on in my opinion and ironically I did not think the potentials should have open their mouths at all, Rona did need to be slapped around and Dawn...well don't get me started because we all know how much I love Dawn..or if you don't well just ask heehee.

          Now be patient with me because it has been a long time since I watched the episode so I remember my feelings more than truly what exactly happened so if I mistep let me know. Anyway for me it was much more about Giles, Willow, and Xander... what they saw, what they were feeling. I just felt they were doing what they thought had to be done which is taking a page from Buffy's book, even if it hurst what is the best for everyone involved. If they feel their leader is going to cause more harm than good then something has to be done. I just wish there had been a way for them to communicate than have tis symbolic division between the original four.

          But most of all I hate that it was the scoobies vs. Spike and that SPIKE is the only one who can get her, What the hell? I know they had been in dark places together, that he saw her at her lowest, but I hate the way they had this go, her friends who had been with her through everything are now the ones who can't take the time to understand...only noble Spike...uh gag me. And then they couldn't even do that right, he was more her lap dog than an equal partner (again just my interpretation) And I love Spike but it should have been about Buffy and her friends..more than anyone else.

          So thus though the action sucked...the need for Buffy to be truly challenged was necessary in my opinion.

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          • #6
            I just hate the way there wasn't a proper resolution to the storyline. I do think the scene was done badly, and I'd be interested to read the shooting script if it really is better...but the way the scene aired, it did feel like Buffy was kicked out rather than walking out. I didn't feel like the scoobies or the potentials or Dawn were in any way justified in kicking her out...but they were justified in arguing with her. It reminds me a lot of the scene in the yoko factor, only that was so, so much better. In the Yoko factor, Willow and Xander are arguing with what they perceive as a foolhardy and dangerous plan, much like their response to the idea of going back to the vineyard. The differences in season seven, however, were that a) the house was full of potentials and various other lame people who didn't do the proper thing in a scoobie fight and go hide in the bathroom, b) that Buffy was treating her friends/various lame people as an army, instead of treating them as friends and/or the people she needs to protect. difference a) is the fault of the writers and the reason I think this scene is so often reviled...much like the rest of season seven, there were too many damn potentials. b) is done on purpose, and this is where it could actually have been interesting. IF the conflict was, Buffy's treating everyone like an army, she's acting as if no one else's opinion matters, she ignoring their thoughts, feelings and suggestions...then the kicked out/walked out thing would have worked a lot better for me.

            And maybe the writers intended for that to be the actual conflict. But the problem was, it subsequently became about who was RIGHT. Despite buffy's comment to faith that the whole bomb thing could just as easily have happened to her, the story structure treated it as if Buffy was right, and if the others would only have followed her to the vineyard when she asked, they would have found the scythe and all would have been awesome. Because, in the plot, buffy IS right - there is something at the vineyard, and that something in integral to the slayer army's eventual success.

            But compare this resolution to what we see in season 4: here, the conflict is that Buffy thinks she can do it alone and she's not paying attention to her friends suggestions or thoughts (certainly similar). However, the resolution is NOT that buffy CAN do it alone - the resolution is that in fact, buffy NEEDS her friends' help.

            So basically, my point here is that the problem with that scene in season seven isn't the conflict between buffy and her 'army' - it's the resolution, which basically makes the conflict seem pointless.
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            • #7
              Somebody compared her to a little kid who didn't like the new game and took the ball and went home. That's also the vibe I got from the scene.

              Buffy
              I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster.

              DAWN
              Then you can't stay here. Buffy, I love you, but you were right. We have to be together on this. You can't be a part of it. So I need you to leave. I'm sorry, but this is my house, too.
              Buffy could stay there and be part of the team if she took a step back, but she didn't want to give her position as a leader up ... and Dawn called her on her words ... Buffy couldn't stay there.

              I believe that the idea behind the scene was that both the sides were right and wrong. But after everything Buffy did in the last episodes, I couldn't agree with her for a little bit. Her new plan wasn't good, nobody trusted her anymore as a leader and she didn't spend quality time with other people than Spike. I can understand why the others wanted a new leader or to slow Buffy down. But you know, they ended the series with showing that Buffy was right.

              The potentials aren't my favourite characters, but I can understand their point. They were (almost) killed for nothing and Buffy wanted to do it again. Buffy did nothing to inspire them, to connect with them ... no reasons to die for her. I don't get why Faith should be the leader, I don't like the argument that the strongest must be the leader ... but I agree with them that Buffy was on that moment not a good leader and that it was time to give somebody else a chance.

              And her friends, always there for her ... Xander just got his eye popped out because he helped Buffy and all she says is that she can trust only Spike. Buffy didn't gave her friends a reason to follow and trust her.

              And I agree with Boltmaiden about the way it was fixed, this was a rift between Buffy and her friends/team and Spike finds her and gives a speech to get the diva back on stage ... Thanks to the writers is Faith wrong, Buffy right and everybody wants her back without talking or making amends ... and Buffy makes a new stupid plan but it works (thanks to a writers fiat and 2 deux ex machinas) and everybody is happy and Buffy is the best leader ever and Faith isn't. Ha! Stupid potentials and scoobies ... believing that somebody else could be a leader.

              edit:
              Litzie said it much better.
              Nina
              and her haircut.
              Last edited by Nina; 28-05-08, 07:57 PM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Boltmaiden View Post
                But most of all I hate that it was the scoobies vs. Spike and that SPIKE is the only one who can get her, What the hell? I know they had been in dark places together, that he saw her at her lowest, but I hate the way they had this go, her friends who had been with her through everything are now the ones who can't take the time to understand...only noble Spike...uh gag me.
                I think her friends did try to understand ("I'm trying to see your point here, Buff... but I guess it must be a little bit to my left... 'cause I just don't." ... "I'm worried about your judgment." ... in the shooting script, "Once you've had some rest, I think you'll be able to --"). It was Buffy who wasn't willing to slow down and consider their points, and instead chose to act impulsive and reactive, as usual.

                As for Spike and Buffy's equality; it's not absolute, but Joss, at least, thinks they're more equal than Angel and Buffy, to hear him tell it in the Chosen commentary.

                Originally posted by litzie
                And maybe the writers intended for that to be the actual conflict. But the problem was, it subsequently became about who was RIGHT. Despite buffy's comment to faith that the whole bomb thing could just as easily have happened to her, the story structure treated it as if Buffy was right, and if the others would only have followed her to the vineyard when she asked, they would have found the scythe and all would have been awesome. Because, in the plot, buffy IS right - there is something at the vineyard, and that something in integral to the slayer army's eventual success.
                She was right in her predictions/instincts, but not in her attitude, as she herself admitted in Touched. (Also clearer in the shooting script: "...I can't fault them for kicking me out. I've been... I've just cut myself off from them, all of them. 'Cause I knew I was gonna lose some of them, and I didn't want to...")

                (set made by Francy for me)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Nina View Post
                  And her friends, always there for her ... Xander just got his eye popped out because he helped Buffy and all she says is that she can trust only Spike. Buffy didn't gave her friends a reason to follow and trust her.
                  So the previous 6 seasons where Buffy saved their asses time and time again didn't give the scoobies a reason to trust her?! I'm not saying Buffy wasn't a little overzealous when it came to charging right back in but she was right like you guys have said. She had a point in saying that they were guarding something. Maybe if they got her to calm down and make up a plan of attack instead of having ingrate Dawn tell her she can't stay there, it would've worked out better. Or at least have Faith or Giles try and come up with a plan instead of bitching about Buffy's plan (or lack there of). If you're not helping in trying to fix a problem, you have no right to sit there and bitch about the consequences that happen from that decision and that's what happened. No one did anything so Buffy made a choice and then no one's able to deal with the aftermath.
                  T _A _T _E _R _S'____ W _O _R _L _D

                  Proud recipient of the "Vagenis Award of Excellence"

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Enisy View Post
                    She was right in her predictions/instincts, but not in her attitude, as she herself admitted in Touched. (Also clearer in the shooting script: "...I can't fault them for kicking me out. I've been... I've just cut myself off from them, all of them. 'Cause I knew I was gonna lose some of them, and I didn't want to...")
                    I guess I just feel like there wasn't enough focus on her attitude being wrong, and it was overshadowed by the fact that she was right about the vineyard. And actually, I think she should have been overall wrong - we don't need to see that in some humiliating way, but just as in season 4 if she'd tried to go up against adam alone she'd have been overmatched and she kind of acknowledges that...

                    You're right that the shooting script is a bit better...god they really f'd up the editing in season seven, didn't they? But I think that's just kind of symptomatic of there being a lack of consensus about what the message really was...if you're so busy telling this meta narrative of female empowerment and everyone who can stand up will stand up, there's not a lot of room for character conflict to be resolved in a satisfactory way.
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                    http://buffysmom.wordpress.com/

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                    • #11
                      I loved and hated this episode. Loved it because it was so brilliant in every department, and I hated what they did to Buffy and to themselves. What you do to another human being being you always do to yourself--I forget who said that.

                      This episode illustrates the meaning and value of "loyal opposition." They were not wrong to oppose Buffy's latest plan but they were thoroughly disloyal and destructive in the way they went about it.

                      Somebody should have said: "Buffy darling, I will always take your orders, but I am going to make damned sure you give the right orders before I take them. Nobody is leaving. Nobody can replace you. We are going to argue this out and we are going to fight the war together."

                      None of them could rise above their fears or resentments to reach the level of the events in which they were taking part. Some of them could be excused by reason of youth and inexperience, but this certainly was not true of Giles and Wood. And the scoobies and Dawn turned their backs on their dearest friend in her darkest hour.

                      It was almost Biblical and mythical that it was the outcast Spike who sustained Buffy. He knew he could not be worthy of her love, but he loved her with the soul he had suffered to get back for her sake, and gave his heart to her, and put the spirit back into her.
                      Michael
                      Hellmouth Tourist
                      Last edited by Michael; 28-05-08, 08:07 PM.

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                      • #12
                        'Becca thought so, too.

                        Rebecca Rand Kirshner: It's all about connect-- reconnecting to other people and also to herself. I mean, I think when she's lying on that bed there, she's in an abandoned house in an abandoned town and she's all by herself and just completely sort of desolate and disconnected and what Spike does, outside from make a pep talk, is that he connects to her, and I think it was her being able to receive that from him and being affected by him then that allowed her to reconnect to herself and then to be able to reconnect to the others. ... What I was really excited about in this episode was that turning point -- I mean, obviously -- but also that Spike was the person to do that, and in terms of storytelling, he's both the least likely person to do that and the most. It's the gesture that tells the truth to the King, it's the Fool, and that's sort of traditional storytelling, and yet it fits organically.

                        (set made by Francy for me)

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                        • #13
                          I never understood why Buffy didn't very righteously whirl it around and order them all, including Dawn, out of *her* house. Dawn's "it's my house too" thing was dubious, since A) her name may be on the deed, but probably not, and B) anybody ever tried to tell a parent that "it's their house, too"? Heh. There were only two people in the room, Faith and Willow, who could have attempted to resist an eviction by Buffy, and would *either* of them get into a fight with her for the sake of stealing her house?

                          The conversation was going pretty well when it was still mostly Giles, Buffy, and Faith. It was when the lesser, and outsider, voices began speaking that it spiraled away. The best move for Buffy or (probably Giles) to make as that heated up would have been to step forth and dismiss all the potentials an Andrew and palaver in their own company over what must go next.

                          As it turned out, Buffy was probably wrong but right -- she correctly perceived that the objective was in the vineyard, but almost certainly was wrong about marching right back down there. They'd have walked right back into a buzzsaw. They had been under constant surveillance by the First, and any tromping boots would have been heard far in advance. Instead, with the First's eye fixed on the house, Buffy slipped in alone and caught them unawares. Fans of "The Dark Tower" might recognize this as ka.

                          But, metaphysical forces from different series aside, it was a crap storyline -- it was completely gratuitous, since it was splitting them up just to put them back together again. The only relationships that were at all benefited, *at all* by this are Buffy with Faith and Buffy with Spike. The former appears to have been rendered mostly moot, and the latter... had already been the most developed and focused on relationship of the past two seasons. I'm not exactly surprised that Kirshner would be very pleased by promoting it further still, though.
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                          • #14
                            I think the worst thing about Empty Places is its placement within the season. I know they wanted it to be the payoff for Buffy's "superiority complex" arc, but it's like having When She Was Bad or Dead Man's Party right before the season finale (let alone the series finale).

                            Originally posted by KingofCretins
                            I never understood why Buffy didn't very righteously whirl it around and order them all, including Dawn, out of *her* house.
                            Probably because, like Drew said, she wasn't just being kicked out, she was walking out. (Which came through in the shooting script, not so much in the aired episode.)

                            (set made by Francy for me)

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Enisy View Post
                              Probably because, like Drew said, she wasn't just being kicked out, she was walking out. (Which came through in the shooting script, not so much in the aired episode.)
                              Except, am I the only person that thinks Buffy wouldn't have walked out? I totally think Buffy would have told them all off. I really don't think she would have left the safety of her own home to go randomly off on her own at the most dangerous time of her life. She has Caleb to deal with, ubervamps, god knows what else the First could be capable of producing. She wouldn't just walk out like that.
                              T _A _T _E _R _S'____ W _O _R _L _D

                              Proud recipient of the "Vagenis Award of Excellence"

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                              • #16
                                Except, am I the only person that thinks Buffy wouldn't have walked out? I totally think Buffy would have told them all off. I really don't think she would have left the safety of her own home to go randomly off on her own at the most dangerous time of her life. She has Caleb to deal with, ubervamps, god knows what else the First could be capable of producing. She wouldn't just walk out like that
                                Maybe she would, Maybe for that Moment she reverted back to her season six self and just wanted to be gone and didnt want to deal with anyone, and wanted to prove them all wrong. Thats just what Im thinking
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                                • #17
                                  It would have just been her superiority complex kicking in. "If I'm not going to be the leader, I can't stay here to watch somebody else being the leader, because I think you're making a mistake", as Jane put it.

                                  (set made by Francy for me)

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Enisy View Post
                                    I think the worst thing about Empty Places is its placement within the season. I know they wanted it to be the payoff for Buffy's "superiority complex" arc, but it's like having When She Was Bad or Dead Man's Party right before the season finale (let alone the series finale).
                                    It's also, uh, like having "When She was Bad" or "Dead Man's Party" (or "Revelations") for the fourth effin' time at all. It's a bottom five episode and always will be.

                                    Probably because, like Drew said, she wasn't just being kicked out, she was walking out. (Which came through in the shooting script, not so much in the aired episode.)
                                    Originally posted by holypotatoes View Post
                                    Except, am I the only person that thinks Buffy wouldn't have walked out? I totally think Buffy would have told them all off. I really don't think she would have left the safety of her own home to go randomly off on her own at the most dangerous time of her life. She has Caleb to deal with, ubervamps, god knows what else the First could be capable of producing. She wouldn't just walk out like that.
                                    I personally didn't feel her "walking out" is all that self-evident in the shooting script either, not that the shooting script should guide us on this subject. I agree with Holypotatoes, Buffy walking out would have been just as mind-bogglingly OOC as her friends *kicking* her out was. It was just an awful storyline.

                                    Giles, Faith, Dawn, Xander, Anya, and Willow should have talked to Buffy. Wood and the Potentials and Andrew should have been sent outside, or the gang should have adjourned to the backyard or front porch. Seven reasonable voices could have settled on a course of action and gotten Buffy to slow down and stop panicking. She wasn't tilting at windmills, but jumping at shadows.
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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                      It's also, uh, like having "When She was Bad" or "Dead Man's Party" (or "Revelations") for the fourth effin' time at all. It's a bottom five episode and always will be.
                                      Fifth, if you count The Yoko Factor. I really don't understand why every season needs an obligatory Big Scoobie Argument scene.

                                      (set made by Francy for me)

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                                      • #20
                                        No, the story does not deserve to be dismissed as "crap." In the quasi-mythical structure of BtVS the savior has to be betrayed and rejected, and sustained by a sinner, before she goes back with the sinner to save the world. It rocks.

                                        I suggest the King considers the motives behind the mutiny. Here is a rule which I have found to be true on most occasions: "A quarrel is never about what it is about. It is always about something else."

                                        Rightly, the King says some senior and reasonable people could have settled the argument. Except that the argument was not what they were arguing about.

                                        It was about Buffy and her role, and their role. The failure of the raid against Caleb was not the reason for the revolt:it was the excuse.

                                        Spike gets in right in Touched. When he contemptuously admonishes Giles because he turned against Buffy because he couldn't handle not being watcher and teacher any more. When Spike is speaking the camera lingers for a moment on the stricken face of Giles--and then moves to Robin Wood, who looks sullen and resentful.

                                        The camera tells the story.

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