Do you ever forget they're evil?

[vampmogs]

Hey

I've been watching some Btvs and Ats episodes lately and it got me thinking about our evil characters. We all know Joss and Co can write very compelling, charismatic and even at times, loveable, evil characters. So do you ever forget as your watching the show that these characters are actually evil? And are there any scenes or lines in particular that make you realise despite their loveable qualities, how evil they were? Do these lines or scenes shock you, even if really they shouldn't?

I've got a couple;

The Mayor:

Refering to Buffy and the value of her life as that of a dogs;

I did. Rusty. Irish setter. A dog's friendship is stronger than reason, stronger than it's own sense of self-preservation. Buffy's like a dog, and hey, before you can say Jack Robinson, you'll get to see me kill her like one.

Going from chirpy and cavalier to threatening to end Willow's life in a heartbeat. If you actually stop and think about what he's saying here, you realise how horrible he really is;

God, you kids, you know. You don't like to think about the future. You don't like to make plans. Unless you want Faith to gut your friend like a sea bass, show a little respect for your elders.


Spike:

Finding pictures of starving children hilarious;

Living skeletons, mate. Like famine pictures from those dusty countries, only not half as funny.

Grinning at the thought of the vampire Marcus and both his killer and paedophile tendencies towards children;

Marcus is an expert. Some say artist, but I’ve never been comfortable with labels. ‘ He’s a bloody king of torture, he is. Humans, demons, - politicians, makes no difference. (starts to circle Angel) Some say he invented several of the Classics, - but he won’t tell me which ones. - beneath the cool exterior, you’ll find he is rather shy. ‘ Except with kids. (to Marcus) You like kids, don’t you Marcus - Well, likes to eat. (leans in close to Angel) and other nasty things.

Angelus:

This is actually a line from Dru but it really hits home how horribly cruel Angelus was;

Snake in the wood shed, snake in the wood shed!

Drusilla:

Drusilla planning to hunt and murder a young child;

Lets find you (Angelus) a nice toddler to eat



Do you guys have anymore scenes that stick out to you? That are a shock to the system? Here’s basically a place you can list some of the cruellest things our characters have said.

Vampmogs

[Nina]

I'm not good with remembering quotes or scenes. But one think I never forget;

Angelus in Innocence:
"You were great. Really. I thought you were a pro."

Maybe not cruel like loving disgusting things ... but I don't think that there was anything more cruel in BtVS than this quote/scene.

[Enisy]

I adore Innocence, but I have yet to see what's so great about that scene. I had already seen Angelus do Bad Evil Things, so it didn't really take me off-guard; would have been much more powerful if he had gone back inside right after losing his soul in Surprise. And the writing is a bit sloppy, with him first telling Buffy "she has a lot to learn about men" and then that "he thought she was a pro". Stick to one insult, wouldja? I much prefer the Angelus/Buffy alley scene in that episode.

Anyway, one line that comes to mind...

Spike: What have I done...? (snorts) Why didn't I do it?

Heh. DeKnight is so awesome.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I really like

Spoiler:

the Dracula scene

in the latest issue of season 8,

Spoiler:

where he points to the remains of the brutally murdered-by-vampires slayer, Aiko, and asks, "Is anyone going to finish eating that". After the comedy banter and charm of the previous issue, in which he was complimenting Xander for losing weight and generally coming off as a bit of a harmless old buffer, the horrific black comedy of that comment reminds you that under all the puffy shirt sleeves, he is still a monster.

[LaJaula]

And the writing is a bit sloppy, with him first telling Buffy "she has a lot to learn about men" and then that "he thought she was a pro". Stick to one insult, wouldja?

Eh, that never really bothered me, because I just figured that he was hitting her with whatever was available to him. You can insult a girl by calling her a whore and by calling her a virgin, unfortunately; Logan Echolls proves that better than anyone.

To continue the Mayor's dialogue, I'll add: "That's one spunky little girl you've raised. I'm gonna eat her."

And for Drusilla, the opening scene in Lie to Me is always chilling: "What will your mummy sing when they find your body?" Drusilla can be very scary sometimes-- I don't know why I always seem to forget that.

[tangent]

Eh, that never really bothered me, because I just figured that he was hitting her with whatever was available to him. You can insult a girl by calling her a whore and by calling her a virgin, unfortunately; Logan Echolls proves that better than anyone.

To continue the Mayor's dialogue, I'll add: "That's one spunky little girl you've raised. I'm gonna eat her."

And for Drusilla, the opening scene in Lie to Me is always chilling: "What will your mummy sing when they find your body?" Drusilla can be very scary sometimes-- I don't know why I always seem to forget that.

Absolutely with you 100%. The 'Lie To me' scene was the one that crossed my mind as well when i read the above. Dru spends so much of her time as the crazy funny vampire that it's easy to forgeet that she's a vicious killing machine as well.

The scene in 'Crush' where she's just blatantly slaughtered a train full of people on her own is another reminder of just how powerful and evil she really is.

[vampmogs]

The scene in 'Crush' where she's just blatantly slaughtered a train full of people on her own is another reminder of just how powerful and evil she really is.

I agree. Also reminds me of Ats' 'Why We Fight' which I watched yesterday when there's a very similar scene, this time with Spike butchering the sailors on the sub, the screams of terror, the blood splattering everywhere. Makes you remember how horrible the Fanged Four were.

[Retrograde]

And the writing is a bit sloppy, with him first telling Buffy "she has a lot to learn about men" and then that "he thought she was a pro". Stick to one insult, wouldja?

When he's saying he thought she was a pro, it was sarcasm, so it is one insult throughout!


I love those moments where you've become attached to the Big Bad and then suddenly it hits Earth. I find there's a lot of those with the Mayor and with Glory, because they are generally so likeable but then they'll make a comment about killing someone and you realise that they are actually evil!

[Fehmina]

I find there's a lot of those with the Mayor and with Glory, because they are generally so likeable but then they'll make a comment about killing someone and you realise that they are actually evil!

I think those sorts of shocking moments happen with characters that are so inherently insane. eg. Glory, Drusilla and the Mayor. They become likeable through the insane and rather funny/quirky things they say. But when it comes down to it, it makes their 'evil' moments that much more shocking and out of the blue.
After all, they must have a higher capacity for evil if they are insane.

x

[NimNams]

I think that "evil" as a concept is harder to define in a show like Buffy. Clearly, characters that we're meant to dislike are easily markable as evil - Warren Adam, Doc, the Master. Then there's the characters that should be evil, but are intentionally likeable or cool - Angelus, Spike, the Mayor, Faith, Glory, etc. This list is obviously much longer, and it's a big part of what makes the show a success. Good or bad, we like these characters. That doesn't lessen their crimes in the Buffyverse, but it does make us see them as "evil lite."

If I were to judge these likeable-yet-villainous characters by their own merits, I'd say that there's only one true moment in the show where the line is crossed and a beloved character is effectively made to be despised. No, it isn't Angelus killing Jenny. He's still funny and charismatic throughout. It's not anything the Mayor or Faith does. It's the infamous Spike rape scene. That one, singular moment breaks the Spike character from his mould and casts him in a truly different light. It's the only time I feel that Spike is, by all accounts, evil. Is he a sympathetic character in that scene? Maybe, depending on one's point of view. Are we supposed to like him in any way for it? Absolutely not.

As for through-and-through evil, I'd say it's Warren, exemplified in his killing of Katrina. That's evil for its sheer brutality and for the lack of remorse Warren shows, contrasted by Johnathan and Andrew's horror. Unequivocally, we like Warren less for that act. I'd say we like him less for this than for killing Tara, a murder that he had no clue he committed. In the end, I'd say Warren is the most convincing evil force in the Buffyverse. To me, he's the only one that gets such a strong negative reaction so consistently. He's not like Adam, who leaves me feeling apathetic, and he's definitely not like Angelus, whose bad boy antics only makes him more entertaining. I don't love to hate Warren, I just hate him. Oh boy, do I hate him.

[skinless]

And for Drusilla, the opening scene in Lie to Me is always chilling: "What will your mummy sing when they find your body?" Drusilla can be very scary sometimes-- I don't know why I always seem to forget that

It because she always so much fun to watch that u could forget the she's able to Kill, Maim and Murder like she does.

[Boltmaiden]

I love the kind of villains that you end up "falling" for. It is great when a charcter is that complex and the actor is strong enough to allow you to feel more than one thing.

Spike, Dru, Angelus, Faith, Jasmine, Darla..oh opps this is just for Buffy...anyway the complex villains I think overall are better to the storytelling if it is going to be a season story. Because then you can really enjoy the ride and always remember that most things are not black and white.

However there is something to be said about the completely vile and distasteful villain....as Nim Nams pointed out with Warren...he definately is one villain I feel nothing but hatred for and those type of characters are needed too I think because sometimes you just want to hate the bad guy and watch him get his...it makes his defeat that much more sweet. I personally was cheering DarkWillow on when she was talking to Warren and he started talking and she just says..."bored now" and kills him.

Spoiler:

Well we thought she did anyway

Watching his terror was absolutely fun and enjoyable and in my opinion though he was technically a human being he was far worse than some of the non-human enemies Buffy and the gang had faced. Him being human was what made him that much more vile, disgusting..whatever you want to say...

To go on about Warren for just a minute; he was a horrible reminder of how awlful humans can be if they have no soul or at least act like they don't. You don't wantto have any connection with a person like that so demons, vampires and gods are easier to see and handle being defeated. It is uncomprehendable (at least to me) that some humans can do what they do to other humans so though so many of Joss's themes are relevant to our everyday life most of his villains had a supernatural element to them which showed that it was fantasy.

Warren was like a slap in the face...I thought it was brilliant move that Buffy was critically injured by a bullet and that Tara died by one. It is an everyday real life weapon and honestly up until that point I had almost forgotten the fact that when it comes down to it the scoobies are human and can be killed by someone so pathetic and in such a senseless way. The gun was something that is obtainable in the "real world". No magic or Slayerness required. And it reaffirmed for me why the scoobies are all heroes because they had put themselves in a position to be killed day in and day out, yet they still fight.

[Jade]

I’m just getting started here and to tell you the truth I have never really thought much about my thoughts on Buffy. I was too busy watching and enjoying it. Since I signed in here my head has been spinning with thoughts, ideas and opinions. I’m watching it again now. It’s one of those things I can just put on to play in the background. I have watched it so much, first on TV then on video and now on DVD. Today I can just have it on, I think it’s a comfort thing like having the TV on just for the sound of it. I don’t watch TV anymore. I prefer to watch full series of things like Buffy, Angel, Bones, among other things. I’ll be back once I have arranged my thoughts some more.