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  • What wouldn't Joss Do?

    Usually, I feel that asking 'what would joss do' is a helpful writing question - I love almost everything he's ever done, his episodes of Buffy are definitely among my top 10, and I generally trust him to take the show in the direction it needs to go.

    Season seven is not one of those instances.

    For me, season seven was filled with potential (not just Potentials). There are some absolutely amazing early episodes (Selfless and Him being my favorites), the idea of a threat to the slayer line was interesting to me, and I liked the new direction it seemed things were taking with the scooby relationships (like Dawn's central role). But then after Conversations with Dead People it all went bad, with Spike's trigger, the is-Giles-the-first cliffhanger, the first ubervamp, and the revealed lameness of the First as a big bad (evil for the sake of evil? with no motivation? Is boring.).

    You may agree or not about season seven - but if you do - how do you think it should have gone? What would have made a better season seven? What should joss have done? Where should the plot and characters have gone instead of where they went?
    sigpic

    http://buffysmom.wordpress.com/

  • #2
    The biggest thing I would change is the amount of screen time for the core four. They didn't get anywhere near enough screen time that their characters *deserved* and a lot of them didn't even get stories.

    Giles hardly got a story at all, the whole "he might be the First" isn't a story, it's a cheap plot twist that wasn't that twisty and then he was pretty much forgotten about again.

    Xander didn't have a story either. He looses his eye and it's still all about Buffy's story. We hardly get anything about how he's feeling after loosing his eye and the effects it's had on him, just some wise cracks here and there.

    Willow spent all season walking around looking scared, and pretty bored. I found her the least interesting she had ever been in this season, they gave her nothing to do.

    It was the final season of the show, these characters were on the show from the pilot episode. They're more important to the show then the potentials, or the big bad, or Spike or Anya or Andrew. All those characters can die, and a lot of them did die. Joss said in the commentary that he couldn't call it a happy ending if they killed any of them off, which pretty much shows their importance to show in comparison to the other characters. They hardly ever interacted and they should have. They shouldn't have spent so much time on the potential slayers, or Buffy/Spike, or Principal Wood or just the plot.

    I think Anya deserved an episode devoted to her character because we'd never gotten nearly anything about her background, and it had to be explored. I don't agree with giving Spike as many episodes he got centered around his arc, he had 'Sleeper' 'Never Leave Me' Lies My Parents Told Me and a pretty big part in episodes like 'Beneath You' 'Touched' 'Chosen' and 'Get It Done.' And Wood's arc was pretty much his arc too. That should have been spread around a lot more when they didn't even bother to give people like Giles or Xander a story.

    And 'Storyteller' can be funny, but I'd scrap it in an instant for a character episode for either Giles or Xander. Andrew is not more important than them.

    Aside from giving the core four actual screen time, which they deserved. They should have explained what the hell was up with Joyce/First appearing to Dawn, why Buffy's death caused the inbalance in the slayer line instead of us having to come up with our own theories, a natural build up to the scythe instead of just plonking it in there all of a sudden and what the First had actually intended for Spike given we had to spend so much time on the bloody subject.

    I also think Caleb should have been introduced earlier, it could work if they wrote him well. And if they insisted of having general Buffy, at least show us some scenes of her in private crying or something. Like we got when she's washing the dishes and breaks down sobbing due to Joyce's tumour.

    I think it was Drew who said that a lot of the writers left in season seven because they had to get new jobs, hence a lot of inexperienced writers taking over, and that really sucks.

    ~ Banner by Nina ~

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    • #3
      Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
      The biggest thing I would change is the amount of screen time for the core four. They didn't get anywhere near enough screen time that their characters *deserved* and a lot of them didn't even get stories.

      Giles hardly got a story at all, the whole "he might be the First" isn't a story, it's a cheap plot twist that wasn't that twisty and then he was pretty much forgotten about again.

      Xander didn't have a story either. He looses his eye and it's still all about Buffy's story. We hardly get anything about how he's feeling after loosing his eye and the effects it's had on him, just some wise cracks here and there.

      Willow spent all season walking around looking scared, and pretty bored. I found her the least interesting she had ever been in this season, they gave her nothing to do.

      It was the final season of the show, these characters were on the show from the pilot episode. They're more important to the show then the potentials, or the big bad, or Spike or Anya or Andrew. All those characters can die, and a lot of them did die. Joss said in the commentary that he couldn't call it a happy ending if they killed any of them off, which pretty much shows their importance to show in comparison to the other characters. They hardly ever interacted and they should have. They shouldn't have spent so much time on the potential slayers, or Buffy/Spike, or Principal Wood or just the plot.

      I think Anya deserved an episode devoted to her character because we'd never gotten nearly anything about her background, and it had to be explored. I don't agree with giving Spike as many episodes he got centered around his arc, he had 'Sleeper' 'Never Leave Me' Lies My Parents Told Me and a pretty big part in episodes like 'Beneath You' 'Touched' 'Chosen' and 'Get It Done.' And Wood's arc was pretty much his arc too. That should have been spread around a lot more when they didn't even bother to give people like Giles or Xander a story.

      And 'Storyteller' can be funny, but I'd scrap it in an instant for a character episode for either Giles or Xander. Andrew is not more important than them.

      Aside from giving the core four actual screen time, which they deserved. They should have explained what the hell was up with Joyce/First appearing to Dawn, why Buffy's death caused the inbalance in the slayer line instead of us having to come up with our own theories, a natural build up to the scythe instead of just plonking it in there all of a sudden and what the First had actually intended for Spike given we had to spend so much time on the bloody subject.

      I also think Caleb should have been introduced earlier, it could work if they wrote him well. And if they insisted of having general Buffy, at least show us some scenes of her in private crying or something. Like we got when she's washing the dishes and breaks down sobbing due to Joyce's tumour.

      I think it was Drew who said that a lot of the writers left in season seven because they had to get new jobs, hence a lot of inexperienced writers taking over, and that really sucks.

      Anya definately deserved several episode other than 'Selfless' because she just became a spare part.

      The core 4 so didnt have enough time together, I definately agree with that. It was if they just wanted to sweep all the drama from s6 under the rugg to simplify everything instead of showing a lot of re-bonding etc.

      Comment


      • #4
        Let's see;

        1. Too many ideas and plans. And every plan was executed badly. They went with something and dropped it the next episode ... sometimes with a quick bad ending or sometimes they forgot the whole storyline. The writers should've picked a couple good storylines and left all the other stories away. My choices;
        • More time and story to show and fix the problems between the scoobies. (I just saw that Vampmogs made a great post about this point)
        • Good redemption storylines for Spike, Anya and Willow (Andrew needed one as well, but I think that Andrew shouldn't be there in the first place.)
        • A good journey for Buffy who needs to become a real leader but without losing her human side.
        • And a well written storyline for the First.


        2. The way they used the characters was terrible. There were too many characters and the major characters were underused.
        • More Xander and Willow, they are Buffy's best friends and they were there for her the whole show ... give them Spike's role as the person(s) she trusts.
        • Characters can also be interesting without a lover ... skip Kennedy as Willow's GF, give Spike and Buffy a good developed relationship ... instead of this big "does she love him or doesn't she" thing and without dealing with the past (you know, more time than the very little time they used for it), bringing Anya and Xander together because they were killing her off, wasn't interesting writing either. And Faith and Robin ... what was the point of their relationship?
        • In Ats they show every time how important the 'normal' humans are. Why can't BtVS do the same? Only Wood could be helpfull this season. Xander, Dawn, Anya, Giles, the potentials and Willow didn't play an important role at all ... to make it worse, Willow became important when she was using magic again, and Anya's role stopped when she became human and the potentials had to become slayers before they became really important.
        • And like I said; too much characters. Andrew wasn't needed, neither was Wood. The potentials were important but they were used wrong. There were too many ... doing nothing. And if you can't give every major character a good role, kill one off. Anya's death could be very powerful if she was killed in 'Selfless', or one of the core-4 ... it was the last season anyway and the first could show up like Giles or Xander. And keep Faith in LA if you can't give her a role in Sunnydale.


        3. Likable characters.
        I had many problems to like some characters or to be interested in them. I don't need them to be the best people ever (actually, I love very grey and flawed characters like Angel and Wesley more than Oz or Fred), but in season 7 they made some characters very unlikable. In the end, I only liked the really underused characters. I couldn't connect with Buffy, I had trouble with buying soulled Spike, Willow was very boring and Giles was too awful for words.

        4. And my last point; plotholes, writer fiats and deux ex machinas. Every season has some plotholes and unrealistic moments but season 7 had too many. I mean, they left the series with an episode with two deux ex machinas, a writers fiat and lots of plotholes.
        Nina
        and her haircut.
        Last edited by Nina; 14-05-08, 03:39 PM.

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        • #5
          Bringing over some of my points from the old thread, and adding some more...

          - Give less screentime to the Potentials, if you must have them there at all.

          - Give Willow, Xander, Anya, Dawn and Giles something to do. As much as I love Buffy and Spike, they can't hold a season on their own, and having the Scoobies just sitting around in the show's last season is just inexcusable.

          - Have Spike interact with people other than Buffy. James Marsters describes Spike as being a sweetheart to his women and a prick to everyone else, and I felt like we were only seeing the former side this season (and only the latter side in Season 5 of Angel).

          - Either remove or finish the dropped storylines. (Dawn's character development, Spike's trigger, Beljoxa's eye, The First Giles etc.)

          - Improve the lighting. Am I the only one who noticed how hideous the lighting was in comparison to previous seasons?

          - Convince Amber Benson to come back for that wish subplot, and ditch Willow/Kennedy. Or just ditch Willow/Kennedy and focus on Willow's recovery.

          - Redesign the Ubervamps to look more... intimidating?

          - Have the First mess with people in more creative and fruitful ways. Pretty much the only episodes that used it to its full effect were Lessons, Conversations with Dead People and Chosen. All of its scenes could've been as powerful as Drusilla stroking Spike's cheek and telling him "he'll always be in the dark with her" -- instead we get cliches like "What makes you think you'll be any good at all in this world?" Heck, if the First had been established as a more convincing threat, no-one would be complaining about General Buffy. She was just as uncompromising, "hard" and withdrawn in Season 5, but the other characters and the audience had only love for her, since the reason for her state was so relatable and noble.

          - If it's the attempted rape you want Spike and Buffy to get over, stop pretending it didn't transpire. After the first few episodes of the season, it became That-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named; no-one would dare bring it up, and it would even get chopped from shooting scripts where it was addressed. Have Spike avoid Buffy more (like James Marsters suggested), have the First appear as Spike while Buffy's taking a bath, do something. Spike and Buffy's Instant Trust in that season was almost as difficult to buy as Angel/Buffy's Instant Love in seasons 1 and 2.

          - This is mainly a consequence of Season 6, but don't water down or destroy all the romantic relationships the viewers were invested in. (Xander/Anya and Spike/Buffy in the former case, Willow/Tara in the latter case.) Contrived, undeveloped 'ships like Willow/Kennedy and Wood/Faith aren't gonna fill that void.

          - Have the Empty Places confrontation take place midway through the season, and focus on a distant-and-superior-but-not-entirely-bummed-out Buffy for the rest of it, like we're seeing in Season 8.

          - Drop Wood. The soul alone could have given Spike a juicy enough storyline (as Season 5 of Angel proved), without those external issues that looked like they had been made up on the spot.

          - More humor, and less of it by Andrew.

          Might think of more later.

          (set made by Francy for me)

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          • #6
            When it comes to villains, I think the first is the least scary and most boring buffy villain we've ever seen. Much, much worse than the Master or Adam, who I think often get the worst reps in fandom. My problem with the First is that there's absolutely no motivation. Late in the season they kind of hit that really, the First wanted to be made flesh, but that wasn't discussed earlier at all, and even so it was a lame motivation. Other villains WANT something. They have human qualities to them, even if they're bad human qualities. The master wanted power, escape, and supremacy - pure horror movie villain, fine. Angel wanted Buffy dead and an escape from his humanity - very interesting. The mayor wanted power and order, and loved faith in his way - interestng. Adam wanted to create a super race of demon human hybrids. While that phrase now makes me think of a Dalek Human Hybrid and many wiggly penises, it's still a DESIRE! Adam had an interesting freaking IDEA. Glory - wants dawn (and to open the door to hell to go home). To me, glory was the best villian, because her motivation was so utterly tied to the scoobies, and the dynamic was set up as a zero sum game - interesting.

            Anyway, long tangent to say - the First didn't want anything. It just wanted to destroy the slayers. It wanted to be evil because it was evil (dun dun dun, the FIRST evil). Where's the interest in that? Where's the humanity?

            I say they should have had a different villain. In fact, it might have been incredibly interesting to have a rougue watchers council deciding that the slayer line was wrong, destabilized after buffy, and needed to be cleansed in order to start again or something.

            But I've been trying to think of someway the first could have been better...the only think I can think of is that they could have never shown the first at all - it could have simply been this mysterious thing that was doing evil without ever having lame planning sessions and such - they could have made a point out of the fact that the First wasn't human, it was something elemental. Instead, they tried to humanize the evil in the first by giving it a face, which just made it seem lame and pathetic.
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            • #7
              Originally posted by Nina View Post
              [*]Good redemption storylines for Spike, Anya and Willow (Andrew needed one as well, but I think that Andrew shouldn't be there in the first place.)
              Definitely agree. Although I do enjoy watching as much Spike as there is whatever he's doing, I think his whole souled state could have been handled much better. After all he got his soul back (willingly for gods sake!) and all we got to see is that he's quieter and practically wont talk with no-one except Buffy. And the whole trigger thing was also rather pointless.
              Second thing I would have really wanted to see, is Willow's redemption. This was handled especially poorly. She got so powerful she wanted to destroy the whole world and all we got is an episode where she turns invisible and after that it's all puppies and Christmas. Really weird.

              Originally posted by Nina View Post
              [*]Characters can also be interesting without a lover ... skip Kennedy as Willow's GF, give Spike and Buffy a good developed relationship ... instead of this big "does she love him or doesn't she" thing and without dealing with the past (you know, more time than the very little time they used for it)
              I agree. Kennedy and Willow was pointless, Wood and Faith was extra pointless. I also agree that this "does she love him or doesn't she" thing was rather sensless in a way that it didnt lead anywhere! (Like many things this season). I mean, we got loads of Buffys obvious attraction to Spike and I am expecting all the time that it all is building up for a moment when she realizes it (and then it might be too late). But no, instead Buffy goes and sticks her tongue into Angels mouth and runs to cuddle with Spike afterwards (WTF?) and when she finally tells him the poor "I love you" it isn't even convincing! I know that Joss said that "love him when you say I love you" etc. But I don't buy it, for some reason I don't see love in Buffy's face in that final scene, theres more some sort of ecstasy ignited by his self-sacrifice. Anyhow, good that there was this hands bursting into flame thing because I can interpret this as manifestation of their love (and so I think that Buffy just didn't dare to admit her love to herself fully even in that last moment).
              So I'm afraid that who knows, perhaps I would have even preferred good non-romantic but well developed (and the process of building it!) relationship between them.

              Originally posted by Enisy View Post
              Have Spike interact with people other than Buffy. James Marsters describes Spike as being a sweetheart to his women and a prick to everyone else, and I felt like we were only seeing the former side this season (and only the latter side in Season 5 of Angel).
              Definitely agreed. Why didn't Spike communicate with Dawn for example?! They really got along well before, Dawn probably saw Spike as some sort of brother/father figure and then all of a sudden (for reasons that Dawn has obviously very little idea about) he tried to hurt her sister! There should have been more layers in their relationship than just Dawns lame threat of setting him into fire
              I also would have wanted to see much more snarky Spike and much less Buffy whipped one. (And that's one reason why I liked LMPTM so much, it had a glimpse of old Spike back).

              Originally posted by Enisy View Post
              Have the First mess with people in more creative and fruitful ways.
              Definitely. What about the obvious and not used First appearing to Scoobies/Potentials as Buffy? (Why did First only appear as Buffy to Spike?) Think how much harm it could have done when appearing to Potentials/Scoobies?

              Originally posted by Enisy View Post
              Have Spike avoid Buffy more (like James Marsters suggested), have the First appear as Spike while Buffy's taking a bath, do something.
              This bath thing would have been really weird and disturbing. So it's really great idea.
              So when we consider how the AR isnt practically addressed at all in S7 (Buffy's instant trust etc), I wonder why they had to put so serious issue in at all...
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              • #8
                Yeah, I would have loved more snarky Spike... but then, I would have liked more snark from Buffy, more humor from Xander and more cuteness from Willow, too, and that was all (attempted to be) condensed into Andrew. Bah.

                I loved Sarah's acting in the confession scene in Chosen, and it had been clear since Help that that was what the Spike/Buffy relationship was building up to ("She'll tell you... someday she'll tell you") -- but you can't string the fans along on the promise of those three words for 22 episodes, with hardly any story or tension or twists preceding it. Or, you can, but it doesn't make for a good season. They basically crammed what could have been a whole arc into three episodes (Beneath You for a comment on the attempted rape, Never Leave Me for trust, Touched for physical intimacy).

                (set made by Francy for me)

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                • #9
                  Most of what I wanted to say has already been stated. But to expand some:
                  • I really think that Caleb should've been introduced earlier in the season. They shoud've given him a backstory, a history, something instead of just random-evil-misogynist-who-must-die. I mean, he must have had some reason for his evilness, right? Find it. Make the character real.
                  • Less Potentials. We really don't need to get to know them at all, IMO. I know and love the Scoobies, and that's who I want to learn more about in the final season of the show. I mean, maybe ME thought that we wouldn't care about the girls unless we got to know them, but 1) I didn't care about the girls because I got to know them, and 2) it's a bunch of teenage girls being slaughtered. Unless you're soulless, you're going to feel sad. And it's not like we can't spend any time with them, but sometimes I think less is more. Give a couple of girls a witty/cute line here or there, and that would have been enough.
                  • Andrew. I hate him. So much. Every single second that he is on camera in Season Seven is time that could've been devoted to a different character or an actual plotline. He should've stayed in Mexico. Jonathan could've come back, looking for forgiveness, and then have gotten killed by....oh, let's say, Caleb. Yeah, good, that's where they can introduce Caleb. Keep us in suspense about the mysterious guy who killed Jonathan for a few episodes-- Was it the First? It was messing with all of the Scoobies in CWDP....but, no, wait, the First is incorporeal. It couldn't have been the First....so who was it? And then we never have to deal with Andrew at all.
                  • Make it more apocalypse-y. If the world is ending, then the world should be ending. It doesn't help that Ats S4 was at the same time, and their apocalypses consisted of eternal night, Rain of Fire, mass chaos, deaths, burning streets, vampires and demons on the loose...BtVS needed to step up. All we really got was the busted lockers in Storyteller and the random, no-explanation-given evacuation in Empty Places.


                  And I agree with everyone who said that Wood and Kennedy were unnecessary, there should've been more time on Willow/Xander/Buffy and Buffy/Dawn and less on Buffy/Spike, the First-as-Giles was ridiculous, and....basically, yeah, everything.
                  The story's kinda bland. It's about this guy named Dumbledore Calrissian who needs to return the ring back to Mordor.

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                  • #10
                    well, firstly i would have nixed the whole potentials plot line... or at the very least have gotten better actors. I thought it horribly detracted from the actual intimacy of the show. For 6 years it was Buffy Xander Willow and Giles, now all of a sudden it was Buffy and a butt load of little girls.

                    Frankly every other battle had been won by the core group... if not all of them, then one of them. They could have just given spike that amulet and been done with it, instead there was this pointless battle scene, Anya died an abrubt death... and it just was no good.

                    I acknowledge the last two seasons of Buffy, and I admit that there were quite a few really good episodes. But in my heart, S5 was the true ending. It ripped my heart out, and was just perfect in every way. It's hard to top that, and I'm sure Joss realized that.
                    Giles: All we know is that the fate of the entire world rests on it. . . Did you eat all the jellies?
                    Buffy: Did you want a jelly?
                    Giles: I always have a jelly. I'm always the one that says "let's have a jelly in the mix."

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                    • #11
                      David Fury: "As far as the finale goes, that was a tricky thing because there were so many great designs we had for the finale about what could happen, about all the people we could bring back but, unfortunately, the logistics of television were such that we could only do so much. I think it was a great... fabically for the series I thought it was terrific. The whole idea of Buffy imparting her powers upon all girls who had the potential to be something more, I think that's very much what the theme of the series was. There were some wonderful things about the time that I loved. The thing I was most disappointed with, I suppose, was that I would have loved to see characters like Oz come back and other people from the earlier years -- just found a way to kind of tie everything a little bit more -- but that's one of those things that... it's a pipe dream, you know? ... I think it was very good under the circumstances. Unfortunately, it could never live up to our high expectations, or Joss's high expectations, but it was still some pretty damn fine television."

                      But at the same time, you can't end a series about female empowerment with the heroine dying.

                      (set made by Francy for me)

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                      • #12
                        So they wanted to bring more characters? I love to see Oz, Riley etc. as well, but if you see what they did with Angel or Faith who came back ... I don't think that it will be better (or less bad).

                        About the last line (Is that also David's?), I agree that Buffy shouldn't die in the end, but I don't think that it has anything to do with the "female empowerment" theme, but with the theme of 'hope that the days will be better'. I think that also in a female empowerment series, the heroine can die and still be all about female empowerment.

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                        • #13
                          The First Evil was one of the major falling down points. Also, the lack (or scarcity) of good jokes and banter.

                          Better villains for the place they were all at at the start of that season...

                          - for the "back to the beginning/back to high school" side of things... vampires! Joss is bringing it with the vampires in season 8, so he could've done so in season 7 instead. With dracula on the team, because he is so lame and awesome like Ted's hair (get out of my head Britney). Vampires trying to wipe out the slayer line makes total sense to me, and think of all the cool personalities they could've had in the vampire gang. They could've made some fun play with vampires from different ages/countries, with different approaches to vampirosity. With DRu in the mix please. I can't quite see Dru as a team leader, being so nuts, but she would make a great wing man for the most awesome vampire of them all, whoever that was (can't get the idea of Barney-as-vampire out of my head).

                          Ok, this is turning into A HIMYM crossover. But, putting that side, vampires, with Dru in the mix and Dracula on the side of the scoobies, I would've liked that a lot.

                          Another alternative? The Watcher's Council deciding it's time to wipe the slate clean, get rid of slayers and put something more manageable in their place.


                          -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

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                          • #14
                            I do like the watchers council idea, that could have been really interesting - much more interesting than them getting blown up anyway.

                            the big theme running through the thread of less potentials/supporting characters and more core 4 seems like a good one to me, though I don't think you had to sacrifice Andrew to do it - there was plenty of room for some supporting characters - all the other seasons focused on more than just the core 4. But the problem in season 7 was that there were just SO MANY, and that part of the point was there were SO MANY. I'm not sure if it was possible to do the potentials storyline and avoid this issue.

                            I was thinking another villain issue was the Ubervamp (the first one). the fact that he was so hard to kill and then all the others fell like normal vamps was really distracting for me during the finale...but the most annoying thing about the ubervamp storyline was how everyone so immediately lost faith in Buffy, just because she got beaten. That made no sense to me at the time - every big bad from Adam on up has beaten buffy before she beat them (or someone beat them, in the case of Willow and Xander)...so why all of a sudden this crisis of confidence?
                            sigpic

                            http://buffysmom.wordpress.com/

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Nina View Post
                              So they wanted to bring more characters? I love to see Oz, Riley etc. as well, but if you see what they did with Angel or Faith who came back ... I don't think that it will be better (or less bad).
                              Yeah, they wanted to bring Oz back for the finale, but they couldn't afford Seth Green. Personally, I think the finale had a hard enough time dealing with all these characters as it was; Oz would have only added to the problem.

                              About the last line (Is that also David's?)
                              Nah, that's mine.

                              Originally posted by litzie View Post
                              But the problem in season 7 was that there were just SO MANY, and that part of the point was there were SO MANY. I'm not sure if it was possible to do the potentials storyline and avoid this issue.
                              I think they could have had that storyline (and the empowerment spell at the end) without even bringing the Potentials to Sunnydale. Have their cake and eat it.

                              (set made by Francy for me)

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Enisy View Post
                                I think they could have had that storyline (and the empowerment spell at the end) without even bringing the Potentials to Sunnydale. Have their cake and eat it.
                                Oh, actually, that makes loads of sense! It would have necessitated removing the whole 'army' storyline, which I always disliked too, so woo for that! Though I think they'd have had to have a potential or two to demonstrate to the scoobies that the spell worked...
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                                http://buffysmom.wordpress.com/

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                                • #17
                                  I think they could have had that storyline (and the empowerment spell at the end) without even bringing the Potentials to Sunnydale. Have their cake and eat it.
                                  I think that they could've even had them brought to Sunnydale and just had them stay in nearby motels or whatever. Surely their parents gave them some money when they sent them off to a foreign country? Or maybe even have some of the parents come with. Then they could have a quick shot of crying parents at the end of Dirty Girls to really make us sad about their deaths. Anything but staying at the Summers' home.
                                  The story's kinda bland. It's about this guy named Dumbledore Calrissian who needs to return the ring back to Mordor.

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by vampmogs
                                    I don't agree with giving Spike as many episodes he got centered around his arc.
                                    Agreed (with the non-agreement). I love Spike, and even I think it was a bit heavy on the Mr Bleach front. To be honest, all those flashbacks bored me, and the fact that most of it wasn't even relevant annoyed me. I would agree with all the flashbacks if they contributed to the plot, but they were just meaningless backstory which we should have found out when there wasn't much else going on.

                                    Originally posted by allthings
                                    Anya definately deserved several episode other than 'Selfless' because she just became a spare part.
                                    I agree with this as well. Selfless was IMO one of the best episodes. Exploring the character of Anya more would have made her death so much more poignant, rather than 'we've got to kill off someone, so let's kill Anya'.

                                    Originally posted by Nina
                                    And Faith and Robin ... what was the point of their relationship?
                                    I loved Faith and Robin. IMO, Faith had nothing. She had just come out of prison, there was no-one who trusted her, Angel was off doing his stuff and she had to completely rely on herself, like she has done her whole life (excluding with the Mayor). Robin provided a typically masculine figure to compliment her femininity. They just fitted. I liked how she got confused by him and how he felt confident enough to talk back to her, I think he showed her that she is allowed to lean on someone else sometimes.

                                    Originally posted by Enisy
                                    Improve the lighting. Am I the only one who noticed how hideous the lighting was in comparison to previous seasons?
                                    You weren't the only one - my tellybox is super dark anyway so I had real trouble seeing what was going on!

                                    Originally posted by Enisy
                                    ...have the First appear as Spike while Buffy's taking a bath, do something. Spike and Buffy's Instant Trust in that season was almost as difficult to buy as Angel/Buffy's Instant Love in seasons 1 and 2.
                                    I love that bath idea! Definitely needed to be more building up of the trust in the same way that there needed to be more building up of the love in S1/2 (will I be slaughtered by Bangel fans for using the word 'infatuation' as opposed to 'love'?)
                                    He tried to rape her, sorry I won't use 'AR' as I don't use euphemisms. I know attemped rape victims and you don't just start trusting that person when they have tried to violate you in the most horrific way possible. And since when does a soul give Spike a get out of jail free card? Hitler had a soul.

                                    Originally posted by litzie
                                    My problem with the First is that there's absolutely no motivation.
                                    See, that's exactly what I love about The First. I love that s/he doesn't have any motivation, that s/he simply exists. Something that made me think about that a lot was the episode in Angel when he is shown Hell, and it is exactly the same as everyday life (sorry I've only watched Angel up to Season 4, I can't recall the season of that episode let alone the episode name!) It really made me think about the nature of humanity, and the fact that inside everyone, there IS evil. I liked how BtVS slowly went from metaphor to reality in Seasons 6/7, and this is one of the ways in which it did that. The Big Bads before were metaphors for evil, The First WAS evil.

                                    Although I do agree that humanity and empathy makes Big Bads interesting, I also think the above

                                    Originally posted by missperoxide
                                    Why didn't Spike communicate with Dawn for example?! They really got along well before, Dawn probably saw Spike as some sort of brother/father figure and then all of a sudden (for reasons that Dawn has obviously very little idea about) he tried to hurt her sister! There should have been more layers in their relationship than just Dawns lame threat of setting him into fire.
                                    I also would have wanted to see much more snarky Spike and much less Buffy whipped one.
                                    Agreed, agreed, agreed.

                                    Buffy-whipped Spike is boring Spike. I want Big Bad!

                                    Originally posted by LaJaula
                                    Andrew. I hate him. So much.
                                    I love Andrew! I'm not entirely sure why but I have such a big soft spot for him - he makes me laugh more than any other character on the show (aside from Oz). I think we definitely needed some comic relief from someone other than Xander.

                                    the First-as-Giles
                                    A lot have people have mentioned this and I disagree with everyone who said it was bad. I loved this subplot; I love the suspense it gives those episodes where you don't know what's happened to him; I love how they don't answer all the questions straight after the cliffhanger.

                                    Originally posted by litzie
                                    The most annoying thing about the ubervamp storyline was how everyone so immediately lost faith in Buffy, just because she got beaten. That made no sense to me at the time - every big bad from Adam on up has beaten buffy before she beat them (or someone beat them, in the case of Willow and Xander)...so why all of a sudden this crisis of confidence?
                                    IMO, this is because not only was she beaten, but she was beaten while she was trying to build the trust of the potentials. It's like parents in a way, they're allowed to be upset and they're allowed to be beaten by things, but as soon as they show that in front of their children it is the scariest thing in the world. Buffy had to be the mum of the potentials.




                                    Phew, that took an age!
                                    Retrograde
                                    Hellmouth Tourist
                                    Last edited by Retrograde; 16-05-08, 11:13 PM.

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Retrograde View Post
                                      He tried to rape her, sorry I won't use 'AR' as I don't use euphemisms. I know attemped rape victims and you don't just start trusting that person when they have tried to violate you in the most horrific way possible. And since when does a soul give Spike a get out of jail free card? Hitler had a soul.
                                      Doesn't give him a get-out-of-jail-free card, just gives him a second chance (which he didn't muck up). Trust between him and Buffy wasn't fully established until Touched, but I just really would have liked some more tension/awkwardness before that.

                                      (set made by Francy for me)

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Retrograde View Post
                                        And since when does a soul give Spike a get out of jail free card? Hitler had a soul.
                                        Yeah but Spike didn't do this with a soul, so it's much easier for Buffy to come to the conclusion with a soul he would have never done this. I agree trust needed to be built up again, I actually think it's pushing it for a series to even go back to a relationship place after an attempted rape, but I can understand Buffy's mindset a little here. If Spike had attempted to rape her with a soul, which he'd never do as far as I'm concerned, things would have been very, very different.

                                        See, that's exactly what I love about The First. I love that s/he doesn't have any motivation, that s/he simply exists. Something that made me think about that a lot was the episode in Angel when he is shown Hell, and it is exactly the same as everyday life (sorry I've only watched Angel up to Season 4, I can't recall the season of that episode let alone the episode name!) It really made me think about the nature of humanity, and the fact that inside everyone, there IS evil. I liked how BtVS slowly went from metaphor to reality in Seasons 6/7, and this is one of the ways in which it did that. The Big Bads before were metaphors for evil, The First WAS evil.
                                        Yeah but the First has always existed, what we needed was some motivation as to why it decided to act now. Which they attempted with the weak plot about the slayer line being disrupted, but never explained. It doesn't need a motivation to exist, it needs a solid motivation as to why it suddenly decided to be through with the 'balancing of the scales' it says it's tired of in 'Conversations With Dead People.'

                                        ~ Banner by Nina ~

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