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  • "Does it have to mean something?"

    Buffy: Look, I am tired of defensiveness and weird, mixed signals. You know, I have Faith for that. Let's just get to the truth here, okay? I don't know how you felt about last night, but I will not-
    Spike: Terrified.
    Buffy: Of what?
    Spike: Last night was... God, I'm such a jerk. I can't do this.
    Buffy: Spike...
    Spike: It was the best night of my life. If you poke fun at me, you bloody well better use that, 'cause I couldn't bear it. It may not mean that much to you, but-
    Buffy: I just told you it did.
    Spike: Yeah. I hear you say it, but... I've lived for soddin' ever, Buffy. I've done everything. Done things with you I can't spell, but... I've never... been close... to anyone. Least of all, you. 'Til last night. All I did was hold you, watch you sleep. And it was the best night of my life. So, yeah... I'm terrified.
    Buffy: You don't have to be.
    Spike: Were you there with me?
    Buffy: I was.
    Spike: What does that mean?
    Buffy: I don't know. Does it have to mean something?
    Spike: No. Not right now.
    Buffy: Maybe when...
    Spike: No. Let's just leave it.
    Okay, personally, "End of Days" is one of my favourite episodes because it is loaded with Scooby on Scooby dialogue with wonderful performances from everyone in the cast. This includes this scene between Buffy and Spike, which I thought was wonderfully written for its realism. And by that I mean, this is how will-they-won't-they couples actually speak to one another when they wanna get their ball rolling, as opposed to the cheesy "I love you... I try not to but I can't stop." Anyhow, that's my stance with this scene, and I wanted to ask you guys what your thoughts were between what the couple said and what they didn't say?

    When Spike asks her "what does it mean," what do you think it meant to Buffy? Did she mean love, as she was eventually going to admit the next day in the Hellmouth? If so, why didn't she say it then? Was it because she didn't know herself that it meant so or simply because she didn't want to admit then and there? If it's the latter, wouldn't that have gone against her "I'm tired of mixed messages" statement? Finally, what was Buffy going to say before Spike interrupted her: "Maybe when....."?

    I think there's a lot of different interpretations we can approach this dialogue, whether you're a Spike/Buffy 'shipper or not. I'm just wondering what other people are making of this.
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  • #2
    When Spike asks her "what does it mean," what do you think it meant to Buffy?
    I don't think she really knew what she was feeling which is why she said I don't know. Hell I would be confused to if the guy I've detested for so long, who tried to rape me, all of a sudden starts to look like a good candidate for a boyfriend. That's confusing stuff.


    Did she mean love, as she was eventually going to admit the next day in the Hellmouth? If so, why didn't she say it then?
    I don't think she meant love to be honest. I think she was just saying that she was having strong feelings for him like he was having for her at the time but I wouldn't say love. I'm one to believe when she told him I love you, it was just to give him what he wanted for so long and since he was going to die she thought she would just say it to make him feel better because really she wasn't going to have to act on what she says. When he dies, their "relationship" is over so it couldn't hurt to just say it even if she didn't mean it.

    Finally, what was Buffy going to say before Spike interrupted her: "Maybe when....."?
    I always finished that sentence as, maybe when this is all over we can see what happens. I thought she would give him a chance if the world didn't end.
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    • #3
      I always view this as the abridged version of the cookie dough scene, on Buffy's side. Their night together doesn't necessarily "have to mean anything" (at least not the "something" that Spike was implying) but "maybe after --" they could give it a shot. Or she wanted to focus on the impending battle instead of plaguing herself with questions that might well be rendered moot within 48 hours or less (and were, in fact, rendered moot, as far as she knows).

      Does this read like an Espenson or a Petrie to you, by the way? They both write Spike/Buffy equally well, so I'm not sure. Probably just 'shippy enough to be an Espenson.
      Last edited by Enisy; 13-04-08, 04:55 PM.

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      • #4
        I completely agree with your stance on this ep... definately a fav of mine.
        Especially this exchange.

        I think the romantic in me thinks:
        Whats most important in this exchange is what they're not saying. They're both telling eachother things that they know the other person knows, but it's sort of like they're thinking out loud... convincing themselves that they each respectively deserve to enter into a 'relationship' by which they can both admit they love eachother, for eachother.
        I mean, i've done that before... just said words to a partner when really we both know whats really going on.

        The realistic part of me reminds myself that Buffy has a tendency not to think she deserves much of anything. She admits to herself more than ever in Conversations With Dead People that she has a weird complex which thereby makes her realise she had done wrong to Spike, yet at the same time feels she doesn't deserve the love he has to offer, and also believe she is above that love.

        So when it come to thinking about how Buffy meant to finish the sentence: "Maybe when...", I can't help but turn away from my natural instinct of "Maybe when this is all over" (as a leading on statement to something that could happen between them in the future), to "Maybe when we're thinking properley" (a somewhat dismissive statement).
        Then the first statement wins
        I feel that Buffy throughout this season had most importantly learned to love herself, first and foremost. And as we have found through looking at Buffy's past experiences and behaviours, she doesn't give much away. And perhaps this was just a little window into what she was about to say to him, and does say to him in the following episode. Which i do believe she meant.

        The stylistic approach to the aesthetics of this season also demonstrates her 'comfortable-ness' in her own skin now. I think she feels she has eclipsed, and this is reflected in the way she is dressed, her makeup, and how she just seems to glow.
        She has transcended from a 'fallen angel' of season 6 to an angel of her 'final' battle.
        (I also think this is the over-riding theme of this season. It focuses alot on healing and building and humanity, and where's the best place to do that if not a war zone? The best and worst of people come out during intense pressure)

        Anyway... i think i've waffled too much now. I've somewhat lost my thread... don't worry i'll find it

        x
        "Blue in the face with a choking regret."

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        • #5
          OOOooo...that's such a wonderful scene! One of my very favorites!

          What did it mean to Buffy?

          I think she was curious enough to want to find out what it meant. She showed more interest in him than some "guy who tried to rape me". Which in my own little world meant she had dealt with that scenario and was done with it. I mean if she continually found him to be the same person she thought he was in "Seeing Red" then she would have never cuddled up with him in the first place - or allowed him to be near the Potentials for training. She probably would have given him a piece of her mind and told him to get lost or she would kill him. Or maybe she would have just killed him.

          So, to me it meant she was considering what was going on with them as something she wanted to explore - just not in the middle of an apocolypse. There were too many variables.

          Did she mean love?

          I don't know about that moment. I think she was considering it. And that's why she said "maybe when..." I believe she thought there would be more time between them. I mean no one knew how things were going to end. And if they made it out she wanted to see where their feelings would lead them. She was definitely interested.
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          • #6
            Does it have to mean something?
            I think maybe part of was that some feelings and experiences are lessened when we try to put them into words, they simply cannot be captured that way, and trying to diminishes them. I see Buffy’s feelings towards Spike in particular as seldom spoken or acknowledged, but continually expressed through her actions. Throughout S.7, for example, it is clear that the care she takes with Spike and the faith she places in him is not simply strategic, but also a result of how she feels, but Buffy resists really admitting this.

            The fact that she said she was there with him- that she let her defences down, and was just finally herself- and able to share that with Spike. Accepting comfort that was freely given.

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            • #7
              I think her "does it have to mean something?" was an indication that Spike was right in 'Chosen' when he says he didn't love her. It also serves, as Enisy pointed out, as a lead up to her cookie dough speech when she makes it clear she doesn't want to be with anyone and isn't looking for some kind of commitment.

              I always say her "maybe when-" as a back peddle on her part when she sees how hurt and maybe even embarrassed Spike was after her comment, especially when she knew how hard it was for him to get the words out in the first place. IMO he cut her off because he knew this, and it did sound like a pretty lame attempt to cover herself IMO.

              But the scenes open for plenty of different interpretations, we'll never know for sure.

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              • #8
                The trouble is mixed signals pretty much sums up all of S.7. Because I can see that interpretation- that the 'does it have to mean something?' is literal, she didn't love him or didn't want at that point to be committed to someone. But then why does she spend one, possibly two, other nights with Spike? I find the cookie dough speech, followed by her showing up in the basement contradictory. Even if they actually just slept, as in End of Days, it makes it look as though Buffy is once again using him for comfort, or at the very least being insensitive- again!- as to how Spike is going to feel if it really is just looking for fleeting comfort in a time of crisis.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by ThePoet's<3 View Post
                  I think she was curious enough to want to find out what it meant. She showed more interest in him than some "guy who tried to rape me". Which in my own little world meant she had dealt with that scenario and was done with it. I mean if she continually found him to be the same person she thought he was in "Seeing Red" then she would have never cuddled up with him in the first place - or allowed him to be near the Potentials for training.
                  I totally agree. Actually, in my little world she already had dealt with it during the time Spike was in Africa - just look at her reaction when she meets him in the basement for the very first time after the AR.

                  I was quite surprised by this scene overall. I mean, Buffy says to others and herself that this thing with Spike is over. Yet she follows him and tells him
                  Look, I am tired of defensiveness and weird, mixed signals. You know, I have Faith for that. Let's just get to the truth here, okay? I don't know how you felt about last night, but I will not...
                  This part is especially funny since obviously its she who has been defensive and who has given Spike weird mixed signals and never vice versa.
                  She's basically dragging the words "I love you, you mean everything to me" out of Spike's mouth. And actually I can't understand why would she do it, she knows how Spike feels about her, why does she need another reassurance? Especially since she won't reciprocate this. Since I'm in the party that belives that Buffy did (does?) love Spike I think I interpret it that she wanted to hear those words, and in the heat of the moment was about to say him likewise, but just got scared and backed off at the last moment and started with the "Does it have to mean anything?" and "Maybe when..."
                  Because I think the other option would be that Buffy knew very clearly that she does not love Spike but since she was feeling quite low (and perhaps unsure about him for some reason) wanted a reassurance that Spike still "belongs" to him. And that would make her quite cold and insensitive selfish unconsiderate woman. I'd rather see her in a better light.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by missperoxide View Post
                    I totally agree. Actually, in my little world she already had dealt with it during the time Spike was in Africa - just look at her reaction when she meets him in the basement for the very first time after the AR.
                    Not just in your world! I totally agree with this line of thinking! At NO time do we see Buffy brooding or slinking around Spike after the "attempted rape". I think she dealt and moved on. She clearly doesn't want anyone else brooding over it, either. It shouldn't be a bigger issue to anyone else than it is to Buffy herself.

                    Originally posted by missperoxide View Post
                    I was quite surprised by this scene overall. I mean, Buffy says to others and herself that this thing with Spike is over. Yet she follows him and tells him
                    This part is especially funny since obviously its she who has been defensive and who has given Spike weird mixed signals and never vice versa.
                    Exactly! It's Buffy sending out the mixed signals, not Spike. He made his feelings perfectly clear. But, there can certainly be white hot chemistry with people we'd rather not be attracted to. You love who you love. Hard to believe Spike decided to fall in love with the Slayer.

                    Originally posted by missperoxide View Post
                    She's basically dragging the words "I love you, you mean everything to me" out of Spike's mouth. And actually I can't understand why would she do it, she knows how Spike feels about her, why does she need another reassurance? Especially since she won't reciprocate this. Since I'm in the party that belives that Buffy did (does?) love Spike I think I interpret it that she wanted to hear those words, and in the heat of the moment was about to say him likewise, but just got scared and backed off at the last moment and started with the "Does it have to mean anything?" and "Maybe when..."
                    I am in the minority party that thinks Buffy loves Angel AND Spike. A man could be perfect for me now, at my current age, while at the same time being TOTALLY wrong for me at a younger age. You need different things from those around you at different times of your life, but you don't ever, ever forget your first broken heart.

                    Originally posted by missperoxide View Post
                    Because I think the other option would be that Buffy knew very clearly that she does not love Spike but since she was feeling quite low (and perhaps unsure about him for some reason) wanted a reassurance that Spike still "belongs" to him. And that would make her quite cold and insensitive selfish unconsiderate woman. I'd rather see her in a better light.
                    Ditto. In my rosy world, Buffy loves BOTH, but DECIDES to keep NEITHER.
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by holypotatoes View Post
                      When Spike asks her "what does it mean," what do you think it meant to Buffy?
                      I don't think she really knew what she was feeling which is why she said I don't know. Hell I would be confused to if the guy I've detested for so long, who tried to rape me, all of a sudden starts to look like a good candidate for a boyfriend. That's confusing stuff.


                      Did she mean love, as she was eventually going to admit the next day in the Hellmouth? If so, why didn't she say it then?
                      I don't think she meant love to be honest. I think she was just saying that she was having strong feelings for him like he was having for her at the time but I wouldn't say love. I'm one to believe when she told him I love you, it was just to give him what he wanted for so long and since he was going to die she thought she would just say it to make him feel better because really she wasn't going to have to act on what she says. When he dies, their "relationship" is over so it couldn't hurt to just say it even if she didn't mean it.

                      Finally, what was Buffy going to say before Spike interrupted her: "Maybe when....."?
                      I always finished that sentence as, maybe when this is all over we can see what happens. I thought she would give him a chance if the world didn't end.
                      Couldn't answer the questions any better than that! I completely agree with your interpretation!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cinderela View Post
                        I am in the minority party that thinks Buffy loves Angel AND Spike. A man could be perfect for me now, at my current age, while at the same time being TOTALLY wrong for me at a younger age. You need different things from those around you at different times of your life, but you don't ever, ever forget your first broken heart.
                        I'm in that party as well!
                        IMO, Buffy sees Angel as The Guy, you know, the one she will eventually marry, but that it's just not happening at the moment. So, she forgets (wrong word) about him, or just pushes him to the back of her mind, which gives her the capacity to be able to love someone else just as much, but still be totally in love with Angel (although why anyone would fall for 'Tall, dark and forehead' is beyond me).

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