Ever felt weird to call demons "Demons" since season 3?

[DarkRobin]

This may sound silly.

But since the later part of season three where we had Anya clear the fact up that the demons, modern demons or however they can be regarded or referred as, are in truth not real demons because they are all hybrids, tainted by other things such as humans, it seemed that it was no longer valid or appropriate to call the demonic beings DEMONS, since they aren't. As Anya put it, they had never seen a demon before mayor's ascension.

So isn't it wrong to call them so? Like it's wrong to call a liger "tiger" or "lion"

[The Ginatron]

Good point. I suspose the word demon is just a generalisation of all the evil bad guys who aren't 100% human. It doesn't really bother me that much, probably because I hadn't noticed untill I read this thread lol.

p.s. nice napoleon dynamite quote with the liger....that is if you got it off n.d. lol

[redrevo]

I assume they call them demons because one doesn't often encounter the pure demons. (Did we ever get to see one after the one-shot Mayor deal? Were the Ubervamps the pure version of vampires, or what?)

It gets all annoying, though, when Joss and co. forget what they've said just a few episodes ago. For instance, Doyle the "half-demon" is what? Quarter-demon? Or actually half-demon, in which case why don't we just call him a demon? And why are these stupid "Scourge" people in Hero going after the "non-pure" demons, when their human shape identifies them clearly as the regular hybrid demon Anya talks about?

The more I think about it, the more that little revelation seems like a plot device to a) make the Mayor able to become more badass than he already was and b) cover up for the cheap demon costumes on humans in the previous seasons.

[NileQT87]

the ?bervamps and the pylea vampire were purebreds (with angel barely able to hang on but he did overpower it), but as illyria said, in the pure-demon age (illyria is pure demon), vampires then were the muck at the feet of those pure-demons who were as powerful as gods.

though it's arguable that illyria encountered the hybrid vampires (she had a previous qua'hasan, meaning she's seen the world since the pure demons were chased out/last demon to leave the earth started the halfbreed vampires--"you still stink of it [humanity?]").

gods:
glorificus / 2 other gods from her dimension
jasmine (real name sounds like "hi-dee-yoo-i-do-wah")

pure-demons:
illyria (gender neutral, see wesley's book depicting its true form)
the first evil
the wolf, ram & hart
the senior partners (incl. mr. suvarta)
lohesh
the mayor / demon snake found in hawaii
the dragon (?)

smaller purebreds:
?bervamps / pylea vampire
the scourge
possible dawn-of-timers like the lonely hearts parasite (tahlmer)
ones that were from other dimensions (the gift, pyleans, not fade away)

a few odd-balls from the ra-tet/white room (very possibly purebreds): mesektet (the little girl in the white room), the panther, semkhet (sabre-tooth), manjet (manny), ashet (full of light), etc... sahjhan also appears to have powers outside of halfbreeds (walking through dimensions and time-travel is illyria-level stuff)--and to the point of being chaos for mesektet. but sahjhan probably is a halfbreed who got those powers from getting stuck between dimensions.

sahjhan and the first evil are both banished demons. glorificus and illyria also got banished, but sahjhan and the first are stuck between dimensions and powerless outside of some powerful magic and followers. jasmine didn't get banished--she put herself in both the bug world and ours because she quested direct power over beings rather than the sit and watch mentality of the other powers.

it seems like there may have been some smaller purebreds, meaning not all of them are illyria/mayor-sized... the scourge and ?bervamps may prove that. but the ones that had any kind of power were probably like illyria (and we know that the wolf, ram and hart were lesser than illyria at the beginning--and the senior partners are afraid of illyria).

[skinless]

I never really thought of it this way, I always just called everything a demon. But Thanks for pointing this out.

[kana]

[QUOTE=NileQT87;176644]

gods:
glorificus / 2 other gods from her dimension
jasmine (real name sounds like "hi-dee-yoo-i-do-wah")

I'm not entirely sure the PTBs were the same as demonic gods (such as Glorificus. I always thought (like demons) there were different classifications of gods and goddesses.

the first evil

As far as I'm aware, The First Evil is not a demon of any sort. I think it stated this in Amends.

the wolf, ram & hart
the senior partners (incl. mr. suvarta)

I was under the impression that the Wolf Ram and Hart, were the Senior Partners.

?bervamps

I'm not sure about the ubervamps because vamps by definition are tainted. The first vampire was created when a demon fed from a human. This created the first of that species. The Turokan, was a line decedended from that common ancestory but not the same demon. They might be a 'purer' type of vampire, but I'm not sure if they are pure demons.

/ pylea vampire

again I don't know if pure vampire is the same as pure demon.

the scourge

The scourge seemed to contradict what Anya said about them being bigger. Either she was wrong or the scourge were exaggerating their power or they assuming humanish form to exist in this dimension (like the SPs taking on the form of a Kleynach.)

a few odd-balls from the ra-tet/white room (very possibly purebreds): mesektet (the little girl in the white room), the panther, semkhet (sabre-tooth), manjet (manny), ashet (full of light), etc...

I always thought they were entities in themselves, not demons necessarily.

sahjhan also appears to have powers outside of halfbreeds (walking through dimensions and time-travel is illyria-level stuff)--and to the point of being chaos for mesektet. but sahjhan probably is a halfbreed who got those powers from getting stuck between dimensions.

Aside from being proficient in magic, Sahjhan's race may just be that powerful.

sahjhan and the first evil are both banished demons. glorificus and illyria also got banished, but sahjhan and the first are stuck between dimensions and powerless outside of some powerful magic and followers. jasmine didn't get banished--she put herself in both the bug world and ours because she quested direct power over beings rather than the sit and watch mentality of the other powers.

it seems like there may have been some smaller purebreds, meaning not all of them are illyria/mayor-sized... the scourge and ?bervamps may prove that. but the ones that had any kind of power were probably like illyria (and we know that the wolf, ram and hart were lesser than illyria at the beginning--and the senior partners are afraid of illyria).

I definitely believe that they are simply some demons that are more powerful than others, whether pure or otherwise. Illyria wasn't simply a pure demon, she was a monarch. The scourge do seem little weak (by any stretch) I;'d have thought the average pure blood would be a little more powerful but perhaps less than Olvikan or Illyria. Not sure.

[brunofilth]

Ilyria is a demon? i didint knew that......and Buffy when she cammed back to life thanks to Willow, I mean Spike could hit her when she cammed back.....is she not a human anymore?

[KingofCretins]

Bruno, Tara actually explained Buffy's vulnerability to Spike in "Dead Things" -- basically, as a by-product of bringing her back, the chip doesn't recognize her as human, but she still is, just with a "deep cellular tan", as Tara said.

Illyria isn't just a demon, she's an Old One... one of the original demons that Giles talks about in "Welcome to the Hellmouth"/"The Harvest".

[NileQT87]

you're right. the first evil says "i'm not a demon, little girl"... possibly a banished god, then. the reason i say 'banished' is because it can't touch--it can only take forms, give power through merging, talk and make disciples who do its work for it. it goes to what illyria was talking about how nightmares used to walk among us / now they're trapped in the minds of humans, etc... it seems like the backstory is that all these god/pure demon types were banished.

let's also add that it was either lindsey who got the amulet to make angel doubt himself with spike (lilah is always open to circumvent w&h in matters of making angel miserable or dead) or it was wolfram & hart that provided the amulet to get rid of the first evil. if its the latter, i'd imagine that wolfram & hart isn't a big fan of the first evil mucking with their power play. which actually means that wolfram & hart won buffy's battle--which goes right along with the belief that w&h saw jasmine, illyria and the first evil all as annoyances, even though they are technically evil--but they also were vying for power. again, we return to the whole creation mythology of the jossverse and the original beings being mostly warring warlords trying to conquer all.

and the fact that one of the senior partners was named "mr. suvarta" (and gave lilah some advice on head-chopping office furniture) and the one was killed while in the form of a kleynach is dead, means that the wolf, ram and hart are probably above the senior partners. it's also curious to wonder where mesektet and the panther fit into this bunch (and we know mesektet did some banishing--including sahjhan).

actually, there's an interesting bit where caleb says that he knows the first evil isn't god and then later the first says it wants to make caleb a god. this may point to the first evil being a god or being a banished pure demon with a god complex (akin to illyria--who also likes to call itself a "god king" despite being just a pure demon).

and yes, it appears that the powers that be are gods--and jasmine and the powers later letting cordelia give the visions may mean that there were more powers than just jasmine at work. jasmine is referred to as a god constantly (granted, mostly by her meat puppets). also the fact that they rule from a higher dimension rather than actually mingling inside or between the dimensions they are affecting, means they are more than likely gods.

the first evil is between dimensions, likely in a banished state, unable to directly affect ? la sahjhan. i'd imagine the first evil is more likely a pure demon who claims "god king" powers than a god. jasmine was more completely in her own form but also impeded by her flesh body due to the only way she could come down similar to glorificus. jasmine is a power hungry ptb god--neither claiming to be good or evil. glorificus had concentrated rule in one hell dimension, whereas jasmine sees more.

"i was forged in the inferno of creation..." is about all we get about jasmine's form, other than her really liking getting called a "god". we also know that jasmine doesn't consider herself evil--whereas glorificus and the first evil never made any attempt to say they were anything but evil. illyria and wolfram & hart got the closest to claiming something other than human concepts.

and illyria isn't a god, but has the powers of a god and was respected as if it were one; hence, the term "god king"--it's a pure demon from before humanity--like the one's giles discusses in the harvest.

the first evil may have its roots in a biblical concept--that of the angel (lucifer) that became the first demon when it said it was as powerful as god (and got banished out of heaven). it would be interesting if the first evil just may be the first demon. that also supports it being a pure demon chucked out by gods for thinking it was a god (hence, same with illyria's "god king" introduction being more prideful boasting than fact).

i'd say evidence points to the first evil being the first pure demon. illyria being one of the most powerful of the ancient pure demons and wolfram & hart not being able to gain power until the old ones had been banished, either to other dimensions, between dimensions (the first) or into sarcophagi (illyria). the wolf, ram and hart are also banished to other dimensions, but they've acquired a network of connection to earth through demons and humans who can be in this dimension, giving them power through several sets of liaisons: wolf, ram & hart (pure demons) --> senior partners, incl. mr. suvarta & one killed in form of kleynach (also can't enter earth) --> mesektet/panther --> the liaisons (children of the senior partners) --> ceo division head presidents --> the employees.

and there could be two kinds of non-pure demons. demons who have had reduced forms in order to stay in the dimension (the scourge)--but have no actual human blood (i'd imagine lorne and most demons are in this category). and those that have been crossbred into ones like doyle. vampires are almost parasitic--like bugs laying their eggs in other beings, but those newborn progeny taking over and killing the host. so, whereas a vampire has no human soul (but has a demon spirit/soul), it is like a parasite in a transformed human meat sack. most demons are diluted (same with the scourge and the usual demons that you see), but then, there were diluted demons who were able to actually crossbreed regularly with humans and those who are installed in human bodies like vampires. the scourge's light machine wouldn't kill lornes and clems, but it would kill doyles and probably vampires.

[Veverka]

Back to the original question, I think it's still a spectrum of some kind- yep, some people have said that Jasmine's a god, etc, so they're clearly not all demons, but as to the pure demons, and 'less pure' demons, I still think they're both demons...

[ntshpp]

There are only three categories of species in Buffyverse.
1. Humans.
2. Vampires - disgusting half-breeds, result of horrible merging of two completle different entities.
3. Daemons. The term "Daemon" means (for me) creature from another world. So, technically, all who's not human or vamp - daemons. Aliens, strangers, guests, others...

[NileQT87]

gods:
jasmine (hi-dee-yoo-i-do-wah) / ptbs (?)
glorificus / two fellow hell gods

pure demons:
illyria / others in the deeper well
the wolf
the ram
the hart (male red deer)
lohesh
olvikan
the mayor
the first evil (?)
senior partners (?) (incl. mr. suvarta and one killed in kleynach form)
demons that escaped in not fade away / the gift / prophecy girl
nightmares
the last pure demon to leave the dimension created first humanoid vampire
some dawn-of-timers that are smallish parasites like tahlmer (is it an old-one era parasite?)

non-halfbreeds, but smallish:
the scourge
majority of demons
turok-han
pylean vampire (wesley says this is a vampire in its purest form)
the ra-tet (ma'at, mesektet, manjet, semkhet, ashet) (?)
the panther (?)

extraterrestrial demon:
queller

halfbreeds:
humanoid vampires
brachen demons (doyle)
halfbreeds running from the scourge
vengeance demons created from humans (d'hoffryn not included)

is that better?

interesting thing i discovered: manjet = egyptian god ra's daytime barque, mesektet = egyptian god ra's nighttime barque. day and night, good and evil--cute. pretty sure that "semkhet" (the saber-tooth) is a bastardization of "sekhmet", the lion goddess.

One legend states that each day, Ra was born and began a journey across the sky. Ra was believed to travel in the Manjet-boat, or the 'Barque of Millions of Years'. He was joined on this daily journey by a crew of many gods. The Manjet-boat would sail through the twelve provinces, representing the twelve hours of daylight. At the end of each day Ra was thought to die and embarked on his night voyage. For this journey he was called Auf, which means 'corpse'. Ra sailed in a boat called the Mesektet-boat or night-barque on his journey through the twelve hours of darkness.

[Vampire in Rug]

I'm thinking that Anya's line about all the Old Ones being gigantic is a genralization, like saying that all dinosaurs are huge. It's not completely true, but it's an accurate enough generalization that it can be used in most cases.

And why are these stupid "Scourge" people in Hero going after the "non-pure" demons, when their human shape identifies them clearly as the regular hybrid demon Anya talks about?

Yeah, it's an annoying inconsistancy, one that the writer's should have covered better.

My theory is that in the beginning, Old Ones started to breed with humans to create half-cast demon lackeys. Over time, Earth started to change and the Old Ones had to flee to other dimensions. The half-cast minions were able to stay because they had human shape and were just better equiped to stay in this dimension. Some of the half-cast demons would have continued to breed with humans to create entire species that were part human (Lister demons, Ano Movic). Most demons on the other hand were disgusted with humans, so they would have only bred with other demons -the less human the better.

So I'm thinking that even though the current demons are all technicly tainted, this is only to the extent that they are human shaped enough to live in this dimension.

In short,
First generation: Old Ones (Illyria, Olvikan, Hellmouth Spawn, Lohesh)
Second generation: Miserable half-cast lackeys to the Old Ones
Third generation: Old Ones are gone so most half-casts selectivly breed with each other to rid thier species of human DNA.
Current generation: Most demon species have sucsessfuly rid themselves of human DNA, however because of thier distant human ancestory, they are still able to survive in this dimension and are human shaped.

[KingofCretins]

With the Scourge, look at it this way... Hitler thought he was an aryan, too, when he was clearly not, even according to his definition. The Scourge were basically psychotic, genocidal posers.

I don't assume that Lohesh or Olvikar were Old Ones... I think we're meant to understand Illyria as a "first" in the Buffyverse.

[Vampire in Rug]

The thing is though, Angel, Spike, Doyle, Groo and Cordy get more or less the same rights as a human because they have a soul. They are human enough to be considered "one of us". If every demon is somehow part human, it creates ethical problems. When Buffy kills some big, scaly, snarling bastard I don't especially want to think "OMG, that demon was part human it deserved a second chance!"

The only reason the Monster Of The Week can be killed off willy nilly is because they aren't human and that's the way I like it.

I agree that the Scourge were posers. They're a far cry from the likes of Illyria, and they're no less (biologicly) human than the likes of Lorne. They think of themselves as elite? Bah! We see more badass demons than them all the time.

[kana]

I've always questioned this, but demon classification is varied. Lorne's physiology isn't what he's judged on, it's his behviour. Angel felt a kinship Kamal and his mission because despite the fact the both their species are supposed to be killers (presumably human killers) both are now human protectors.

Aside from the soul having in Angel's case this brings a whole issue of demon's redeeming themselves or indeed merely displaying characteristic that another species would consider favourable.

Vampires are part human in a different sense than Doyle. Genetically Doyle is part demon whereas Angel is 100% genetically human (having two human parents). His demon lineage is purely mystical.

This is all by the way though because the most important thing is demon psychology and culture. Buffy (I think) mentioned a passing knowledge of some demon culture, which was most likely learned from Giles. Some demons are anti-human or indeed don't mind killing or using humans for their need. If certain humans aren't willing to do the same then I'd cheer Buffy on for protecting them.

The origin of the Scourge is murky (see my earlier post for an alternative on the whole "They are demon hype merchants" theory) but the important issue perhaps is that they more about the distruction of everything we hold dear as humans or human friendly demons.

The problem is that I'm sure we'd all like to get along but at the very least with vampires it isn't a case of we leave you alone and you'll leave us alone, as we see in the Wish. By killing these demons, we are not judging them (how could we?) but we protecting our own interests, as murky as that sounds.

[Vampire in Rug]

The way I see it, different demons have different natures and temperments. Demons like Fyarls are by nature irredemably evil and killing them at any time, for whatever reason is justified. Brachen demons are by nature friendly killing them is probably unnecessary.

I think all demons are demons though, unless stated to be explicidly otherwise. Doyle, Listers, Ano Movic, Vengance, vampires and bringers are the only half-breeds as far as I'm concerned. I think Lorne, Clem, Sahjan or even that lame Chaos demon would have all survived the Scourge's doomsday weapon.

I don't assume that Lohesh or Olvikar were Old Ones... I think we're meant to understand Illyria as a "first" in the Buffyverse.

I'd say Illyria is a "first" only in the sense that she was the first Old One to escape the Deeper Well. In fact, even that hasn't been explicidly stated. I've read fanfiction where there are other Old Ones who slipped past Drogyn and are now going about in a human shell.

I consider Olvikan, and probably Lohesh to both be Old Ones. Both cases were of a human taking the form of an extinct demon, one that was somehow "purer" than all the demons we've seen so far, and Olvikan was certainly huge like Illyria's original form.

[NileQT87]

illyria has escaped before because it had another qua'hasan before knox (remember, the last qua'hasan was taller). so, illyria seems to have been defeated before and put back in her sarcophagus. illyria has been in the world in two forms besides the original gigantic thing with lots of tentacles drawn in wesley's book.

and i wouldn't say illyria is the first of anything. all that was stated is that the last time she knew the wolf, ram and hart, they were pretty minor pure demons next to the likes of its power and that they've bulked up since the competing old ones went away.

and i'd say that the big flashy scourge machine wouldn't have killed any normal average demons (lorne and clem included), but would have killed the likes of angel and doyle. thus, we separate non-human-tainted demons from those who have bred with humans. the scourge wouldn't have been fried by their own doomsday weapon--so the poser thing only works in regards to the old ones (which they are clearly not). they just see themselves different from the likes of vampires, vengeance demons, doyle, etc... all of whom would get fried.

[kana]

illyria has escaped before because it had another qua'hasan before knox (remember, the last qua'hasan was taller). so, illyria seems to have been defeated before and put back in her sarcophagus. illyria has been in the world in two forms besides the original gigantic thing with lots of tentacles drawn in wesley's book.

I'm not sure about this. When did it say that it had escaped before? It is possible that if there was a crossover. Lindsay mentioned something about the last time mankid drop kicked a demon out of this dimension so it's possible that humans and vampires existed at the same time as W&H, Illyria and other old ones, although mankind was still new to this world comparitively speaking. All we know is that demons were here first, there could have been a crossover period which would explain Illyrias knowledge of them and of vampires.

and i wouldn't say illyria is the first of anything. all that was stated is that the last time she knew the wolf, ram and hart, they were pretty minor pure demons next to the likes of its power and that they've bulked up since the competing old ones went away.

Yeah, agreed. Illyria was powerful, there was no mention of it being the first though.

and i'd say that the big flashy scourge machine wouldn't have killed any normal average demons (lorne and clem included), but would have killed the likes of angel and doyle.

Yeah. Lorne I would say would not have been burned because he doesn't have any human genes but yes Angel and Doyle do. Doyle is part demon by heritage and Angel is 100% human by heritage although he has demon physiology. Billy would also fry.


Lorne and Clem? Uncertain. If it's possible for Groo to have human blood mixed in it's possible that Lorne's clan have the same although it seems unlikely due their attitude towards human beings in Pylea. Lorne and the others of the Deathwok Clan seem very human looking. Coincidence? Unfortunately we know little of their lineage and if human beings have existed for a long time in Pylea. They certainly existed for long enough for Groo to reach adulthood. Was he only one? Or was he the only one adept enough to survive that world without being put into slavery or killed (i.e. being a formidable warrior.)

If Clem is from our dimension they he maybe classed as a bog standard tainted demon. He may be less human than Doyle. Billy for example had demonic blood and it's implied by Wes that it is genetic. He seems a lot more human than the Lister demons.

thus, we separate non-human-tainted demons from those who have bred with humans. the scourge wouldn't have been fried by their own doomsday weapon--so the poser thing only works in regards to the old ones (which they are clearly not). they just see themselves different from the likes of vampires, vengeance demons, doyle, etc... all of whom would get fried

I doubt they'd fry. It could be that the scourge are mearly very weak and small pure bloods (maybe this is what W&H were) or maybe you're right and it is a different classification of 'pure blood'.

[Vampire in Rug]

illyria has escaped before because it had another qua'hasan before knox (remember, the last qua'hasan was taller). so, illyria seems to have been defeated before and put back in her sarcophagus. illyria has been in the world in two forms besides the original gigantic thing with lots of tentacles drawn in wesley's book.

It's never been stated that Illyria has escaped before -in fact all evidence seems to point against it. She was very surprised that humans were still around. And if she'd escaped before, surely she would have killed Drogyn the first time around? Or Drogyn (after re-imprisoning her) would have put her sarcophagus under higher security. A Qua'hasan is just a high preist, I image Illyria would have had quite a few of those. Back in her day she did a lot of dimension hopping. I imagine that whenever she arrived in a new dimension Illyria would take up a new Qua'hasan to help her in whatever world she happened to be in.