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  • Xander and Willow's Roles Switched

    Did you notice how Xander and Willow's roles started to switch a little since season 7?

    Willow used to be Buffy's best friend in every sense of the word(s), she's too suppotive of Buffy's decisions and actions even those that are stupid. While Xander is the one who usually tells Buffy off when she does those said stupid actions.

    But from S7, we see Xander becoming a tad more supportive toward the Spike issue, trying hard to think of why would Spike kill again, while Willow jumped into the accusation "William the Bloody returned".

    In Season Eight, Xander supports Buffy's bank robbing while Willow was the one to tell Buffy off (quite gentler than Teenage Xander used to do)

    Is the fact that Willow was no longer Buffy's best friend that's making her see the situation more objectively? Or is it because Xander had been with Buffy since Chosen that he knows the changes she went through better than Willow?

    I feel that fans who are reading the comics are Willow, we don't know what Buffy went through during the year and a half after Chosen, we don't get why she bank robbed, we don't get why she slept with Satsu, and Willow (and the fans) need Buffy to talk about what she had been through.
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    Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

  • #2
    I think it has alot to do with the total darkness Willow faced in the end of season 6. And that summer between where Willow wasn't there, Xander and Anya had broke up and Spike was no where to be found... Xander and Buffy only had each other.

    I also never thought of how you put it, the readers are Willow. It makes perfect sense and it gives another layer to the series.

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    • #3
      I don't entirely agree with this. The reason is that Xander had had this role for more than 6 seasons (also on occasions in S7), while Willow has only just started. And vise versa. For one thing: we lack motivations. We don't entirely know why Willow objected Buffy's adventure with Satsu. We don't know how her view of the world has become. And in Xander's way: he was supportive of Buffy when he came to bankrobbing, but that doesn't mean he wasn't against it. And that he let that know in a different way, for example that Buffy and Xander have had an argument before.

      I do think that in Xander's case that he had opened his eyes when it came to the Anya-thing. And that since that moment he became much more acceptable to things happing in the world.

      I don't agree with Willow on the Buffy/Satsu thing though, and I am reader. I was also supportive of Buffy robbing the back, though Willow did have a point.

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      • #4
        Why do you think Buffy robbed a bank, koos? Why do you support that action?
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Sosa lola View Post
          Why do you think Buffy robbed a bank, koos? Why do you support that action?
          The way I see it, was that Buffy needed to take care of hundreds of Slayers, (with protection, a roof, food and essentially a new life). With this amount of pressure, especially because it was needed fast, IMO Buffy had no choice but to steal money.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Koos View Post
            We don't entirely know why Willow objected Buffy's adventure with Satsu.
            What makes you think she objected? Her facial expressions could equally be utter shock and a feeling of "I've known this women nine years and now I discover there's an entire side to her I've never seen before."

            (Plus maybe a helping of self-recrimination and regret that she's supposed to be Buffy's best friend, but because of their quarrel two issues ago, now Buffy isn't confiding in her anymore...)

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            • #7
              There's no mistaking it, Stormwreath. She very deliberately non sequitured that remark about 'nothing making sense to her', and we know the context and tone of it by Xander's, Buffy's, and Satsu's reaction in the same panel. Xander is like "wtf?", Buffy is looking at her in a sort of admonished disbelief, and Satsu looks like a kicked puppy.

              We may not know why specifically, but there's no question -- Willow ain't happy.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by stormwreath View Post
                What makes you think she objected?
                I'm definitely not sure about this. But, it's in the way the others (Buffy, Satsu and Xander) look when they are in the command-room and Willow said: "Nothing seems to make sense tonight."

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                • #9
                  Even the scene in the control room read to me as if it was an "I'm supposed to be your best friend and you didn't tell me!" reaction rather than "What you did was inexcusable and wrong!" Still, I suppose ('hope') we'll find out which interpretation is right once Willow gets more dialogue next issue.

                  Incidentally, I've seen some people compare Satsu to Kennedy. I'll just say - Satsu' reaction to Willow here is to feel guilty and embarrassed. Kennedy's reaction would have been to get in Willow's face telling her she couldn't talk to Buffy that way, how dare she and who does she think she is!!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by stormwreath View Post
                    Even the scene in the control room read to me as if it was an "I'm supposed to be your best friend and you didn't tell me!"
                    Never considered it that way. So, can't say that that's the way I read it.

                    Actually considering it, it would make no sense whatsoever. First of all: that would imply that Buffy has had sex with a woman before. Because at the moment Willow had arrived there had been no chance for Buffy to tell Willow. Secondly, best friend? I think issue 10 has shown us that that is not the case anymore. Willow even considered that she had betrayed Buffy with Kennedy. Thirdly: why would Willow even expect Buffy to tell her. It's not like Willow herself had been so comfortable to tell Buffy when she had a relationship with Tara. Fourth: it was just one moment of sex. Not a relationship.

                    Or did you expect Buffy to have told Willow her (at that moment nonexcistent) lesbian fantasies during issue 10.

                    "What you did was inexcusable and wrong!"

                    Willow knew that Satsu is in pure love with Buffy. Willow also realized that Buffy knows. After Willow saw her with Satsu in bed there is only one small logical step away to the conclusion that Buffy had used Satsu.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                      There's no mistaking it, Stormwreath. She very deliberately non sequitured that remark about 'nothing making sense to her', and we know the context and tone of it by Xander's, Buffy's, and Satsu's reaction in the same panel. Xander is like "wtf?", Buffy is looking at her in a sort of admonished disbelief, and Satsu looks like a kicked puppy.

                      We may not know why specifically, but there's no question -- Willow ain't happy.
                      Agreed. As to why...

                      I think there's an element of Willow having empathy for Satsu - she's been there with the unrequited love before, with Xander - and probably feels Buffy's being very insensitive, sleeping with a girl who wants her so much when she's not going to follow through with a relationship. But also she's aware that Buffy's been on a dodgy path lately (running around robbing banks and generally being a fun lovin criminal ) and that it's not so long ago that she was on a similar path. After all, she "meant well" when she brought Buffy back...when she altered Tara's memories...and Buffy's good intentions may in Willow's mind be a signpost for "next exit, hell".

                      There's probably a more personal bitterness at work a little, too - being hurt that Buffy didn't confide in her that she was in any way considering Satsu "like that". But I think that'd only be a smaller part of it. I think it's more likely to be a worry about Buffy abusing power in various ways, and the things that that can lead to.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Koos View Post
                        Actually considering it, it would make no sense whatsoever. First of all: that would imply that Buffy has had sex with a woman before. Because at the moment Willow had arrived there had been no chance for Buffy to tell Willow.
                        No, it would imply that Buffy had been thinking about this before that evening - which she clearly has.

                        This is the Buffy who had long conversations with Willow about Angel before they slept together, about Parker before they slept together, about Riley before they slept together... (although not about Spike - and remember how hurt and surprised Willow was in 'Seeing Red' when she discovered that Buffy had told Tara but not her about sleeping with Spike?)

                        It would be entirely in character for Willow to expect Buffy to talk to her in advance if she was having feelings for Satsu, whatever the nature of those feelings. To maybe want her advice, to talk things through with her... not just just straight into bed with the girl.


                        Secondly, best friend? I think issue 10 has shown us that that is not the case anymore. Willow even considered that she had betrayed Buffy with Kennedy.
                        Willow described Buffy as her best friend to a third party in #3: "Did I ever tell you about my best friend? I like to think, in a way, that she's a part of me. That even when she's gone, a part of me is with her. 'Cause it is."

                        In #10 Willow was incredibly guilty about the way she's been avoiding Buffy, about her recent realisation that she blames Buffy, indirectly, for Tara's death. I can well think that in #12, Willow is maybe wondering if this is payback, if Buffy is deliberately keeping things from her because of her own secrecy over Kennedy. She's mourning the distance that's come between them... that's hardly the same as saying their friendship is dead...

                        Thirdly: why would Willow even expect Buffy to tell her. It's not like Willow herself had been so comfortable to tell Buffy when she had a relationship with Tara.
                        From 'Primeval':

                        WILLOW: I wasn't exactly Ms. Available either. I kept secrets. I hid things from everyone.
                        BUFFY: That's not your fault. I mean, you were going through something huge -
                        WILLOW: I wanted to tell you. But I was so scared?
                        BUFFY: You can tell me anything, Willow. I love you. You're my best friend.

                        This is the sort of thing friends are supposed to talk about, and it's a bad thing (for both of them) if they feel too uncomfortable or scared to do so...

                        Fourth: it was just one moment of sex. Not a relationship.

                        Or did you expect Buffy to have told Willow her (at that moment nonexcistent) lesbian fantasies during issue 10.
                        One moment so far. As for your second question, thre are two equally important factors at work:

                        1) Why would Willow think that this is totally out of the blue? All Buffy's previous sexual relationships had a long build-up, which Willow knew all about because Buffy talked to her about it. (Except in Season 6, of course, when there were Other Circumstances.) As far as Willow is concerned, there's every reason to suspect that Buffy has been thinking about Satsu and wondering about her sexuality for a long time before they actually end up in bed together.

                        2) You yourself are assuming that this is totally sudden and unexpected, but there's no evidence of that. In #11 Buffy even talks about Satsu "smelling good"; that has to mean she's been thinking about this way too much recently, if you ask me. And the way she says "It makes me less... little bit less lonely" also suggests that Satsu is in Buffy's thoughts quite a bit. Sure, there's no evidence that Buffy was having sexual thoughts about Satsu before they ended up in bed together - but no evidence she wasn't, either - but she was clearly feeling a deep emotional connection to her.


                        Willow knew that Satsu is in pure love with Buffy. Willow also realized that Buffy knows. After Willow saw her with Satsu in bed there is only one small logical step away to the conclusion that Buffy had used Satsu.
                        There are also several other possible logical steps to take from that evidence, that lead to very different conclusions...

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                        • #13
                          This is the Buffy who had long conversations with Willow about Angel before they slept together, about Parker before they slept together...
                          This being the case, and knowing how protective Willow was of the kisser in 8.03, maybe she's upset because she recognizes the similarity between Buffy now and Parker then.

                          Hopefully one time is as far as this goes, and that Willow tells Buffy as much. Buffy has no right, and no decency, to be sleeping with someone who is love with her when she knows she isn't. Sex with someone's emotions on the line isn't a lease with an option to buy, Buffy may be 'young and experimenting', but she's old enough to act better than that. I've said this elsewhere, but Joyce would be very disappointed in her.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                            maybe she's upset because she recognizes the similarity between Buffy now and Parker then.
                            Parker was feeling incredibly vulnerable and isolated, deserted by his friends, and clinging for comfort to the only person whom he felt kinship with?

                            Parker was totally straightforward upfront about his feelings, being painfully honest before they slept together about the fact that he didn't think there could be a long-term future for them?

                            Parker genuinely cared about Buffy, didn't want to see her hurt?

                            Parker respected her abilities, loved spending time with her outside the bedroom, and was always there for her when she needed support?

                            Buffy and Parker both have two arms, two legs and a pulse. Other than that, I'm not seeing too many similarities.

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                            • #15
                              It all feels like rationalization. As Buffy herself wisely pointed out, "every maladjust has his reasons".

                              There is one indisputable fact, the crucial fact, on which Buffy and Parker are indistinguishable -- they both hopped into bed from someone who expected more to come out of it than they did. And there really isn't any disputing that Satsu expected more of it. She clearly wasn't prepped on it being NSA, or she wouldn't have asked about what they would do the next day. She clearly wasn't expecting to be told it may not be more than that or she wouldn't have abruptly tried to go back to her own bed.

                              Everything else, *everything*, is window-dressing.

                              Buffy is lonely and full of self-doubt... Parker's dad withheld affection. Whatever. The why doesn't really matter, does it?

                              I really hope that Joss doesn't back away from that side of this thing whenever Willow calls Buffy on the carpet.
                              Last edited by KingofCretins; 09-03-08, 10:38 PM.
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                              • #16
                                The first words out of Satsu's mouth were "I know what this is". She's not stupid; she knew before she and Buffy ever got into that bed that Buffy isn't a lesbian, and therefore there could be no long-term future for them.

                                It still hurts her to hear Buffy confirm it - of course it does. She has an unrequited love for her. Getting hurt is pretty much inevitable.

                                It still doesn't change the fact that Satsu is sexually attracted to Buffy, that Buffy is depressed, lonely and confused, and Satsu took advantage of her emotional vulnerability to persuade her into bed. Assuming that Satsu is only the helpless victim here, that all the manipulation was one-way, is deprotagonising of her...

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                                • #17
                                  I don't think Satsu is a guileless little kitten, but she clearly was hurt, and she clearly, clearly didn't understand that this might not be going anywhere before the fact. When she said she knew Buffy hadn't "turned gay", it sounds like a woman who, having had her wish fulfilled, wants to know what gives.

                                  I would actually classify Buffy denying her, saying "it's not what it looks like", in front of *every one* of Buffy's friends in that castle as well as one of Satsu's own peers was a lot colder than any part of Parker's pretentious "what else was it supposed to be" talk to Buffy. It was, to my ear, a lot closer to calling her a toilet seat.
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                                  • #18
                                    It still doesn't change the fact that Satsu is sexually attracted to Buffy, that Buffy is depressed, lonely and confused, and Satsu took advantage of her emotional vulnerability to persuade her into bed. Assuming that Satsu is only the helpless victim here, that all the manipulation was one-way, is deprotagonising of her...
                                    *snort* Let me think. Where have I heard that description banded about before....

                                    Welcome to the wonderful world of season six Spuffy everyone....

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by sueworld View Post
                                      Welcome to the wonderful world of season six Spuffy everyone....
                                      "History repeats itself, the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce."

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                        I would actually classify Buffy denying her, saying "it's not what it looks like", in front of *every one* of Buffy's friends in that castle as well as one of Satsu's own peers was a lot colder than any part of Parker's pretentious "what else was it supposed to be" talk to Buffy. It was, to my ear, a lot closer to calling her a toilet seat.
                                        I actually do read this as: Satsu is a guileless little kitten.

                                        I for one have no respect for Satsu's part of it. Even less and Buffy is in no way comparable with Parker. Sure it was not nice from Buffy to do this to Satsu. But to me (and now I'm exaggerating it hugely to make my point clear) Satsu is using herself a whore to Buffy so she can hope on a relationship. I my opinion you're not showing the meaning of pure love with someone if you have sex with that person while you know she is not interested in a relationship.

                                        This is however not comparable to Spuffy. Buffy was in a depression during S6, she is not now. Buffy is not having sex to just feel something. She's just missing a good night.

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