Canon Important?

[-beardo-]

I only read buffy and angel stuff that is canon to the series although i would have watched the animated series even thouhg it would not have been canon.

Im not to sure but canon basically includes

Buffy
Angel
Buffy Season Eight
After The Fall
Fray
Tales of The Slayer (Comic not book)
Tales of The Vampires
Buffy: The Origin

So who regards canon as very important?

[KingofCretins]

Canon is of great importance, since it is the "reality" by which all our discussions of characters and events are measured.

Because I've never seen an actual clear quote from Joss that the "Tales of..." books are canon, but they are all written by staff writers and him and not contradicted by the canon, I think of them as "quasi-canonical" works. The other things I think of as "quasi-canonical" are Viva Las Buffy and Slayer, Interrupted.

"Quasi-canonical" means, to me, that it may be read as canon only insofar as it is not directly contradicted by canon.

The actual canon consists of the seven televised seasons of Buffy, Season 8, the five televised seasons of Angel, "After the Fall", "Fray", and "Buffy: Origins".

[patxshand]

I highly disagree. For me, any work written and/or supervised or endorsed by Joss is canon. Of course the seven seasons of Buffy, the five of Angel, the Season Eight and After the Fall comics are canon, but there is more than that.

Fray, Tales of the Vampires, Tales of the Slayers, and The Origin are all indisputably canon. Why would Tales be any less canon than Fray, when Joss wrote both of them? Joss didn't write every story of Tales, but he--especially with "...Vampires"--wrote the over arching story and acted as "editor" or, as he's saying now, "executive producer."

[vampmogs]

I agree, 'Tales' is canon. Joss wrote it, Joss has used the same slayers from that book in 'The Chain' and I'm pretty sure has stated that it is canon. I'll try and find a quote.

[alexa]

I agree Tales is canon. It includes a Fray story, as well as the slayers included in the Chain. Basically all we need is for Joss to verify (if he hasn't?), but it's pretty obvious.

I think canon is important for sure. But I actually read Tales and Fray before season 8 because I knew Joss was involved.. so it was canon to me. Cool now that those stories are playing a part in the new season, they're a really good read, especially Fray.

[Veverka]

I agree that Tales is canon, but... not important to me: I am more concerned with the Buffy verse, not the slayer verse. Just my 2 cents.

[KingofCretins]

I don't consider anything that didn't get on TV definitively canon without a definitive statement that it is -- seems pretty straightforward. Season 8 is canon because Joss said it is, not *just* because he wrote it. I mean, Joss could have anonymously written several Season 8s as fanfic. Maybe he'll reveal that he did -- that doesn't make it canon without him saying so in as many words. We know Jane Espensen, Doug Petrie, and others write fanfic, for instance. And there are more than a few of the "Tales of..." stories that strain plausibility as canon. For instance, the idea that Xander was a four foot tall hunchback that Buffy left captive with Dracula for months or more. I'm sorry, but Joss needs to say that is canon in as many words.

[Thomas]

For instance, the idea that Xander was a four foot tall hunchback that Buffy left captive with Dracula for months or more. I'm sorry, but Joss needs to say that is canon in as many words.

I agree, they really need to update that and change those events through flashback. The whole thing looked really ridicules, I looked at it on Darkhorse's website.

Currently, I don't see the events of "Tales..." as canon, maybe a few of the characters, and maybe some of the events, but as a whole, no, until Joss announces it as different. It should remain loose canon.

I'm considering: Buffy: The Origin, Buffy: Season 1-7, Buffy: Season 8, Angel: Season 1-5, Angel: After the Fall, and Fray.

[Vampire in Rug]

Well, Like others have said, the various slayers from "Tales of the Slayer" appeared in "The Chain." If "Wolves at the Gate" makes reference to Xander's stay with Dracula, would that help cement "Tales" as canon for you? On the cover of "Wolves at the Gate" we see Xander and Dracula on a motorcycle, and in "Tales" Dracula mentions how Xander taught him to ride a motorbike.

Also, Scott Allie and Dark Horse seem to consider "Tales" to be canon.

Jackal: There has been some debate on the Internet about canon in the Buffy comics. Do you, Dark Horse and Joss basically consider anything Joss has worked on to be canon?

Scot Allie: Oh, yeah, of course. The scythe showed up in Fray, and then wham, there it was in the TV series. Yes, I cannot say it enough, Season Eight IS canon. That's why it's Season Eight.

J: Will Xander’s stint as Dracula’s slave from Tales of the Vampires be followed up on in Season Eight?

SA: Hotcha.

Not sure what "hotcha" means, but it seems to me that Scott considers anything that Joss has worked on to be canon.

I mean, Joss could have anonymously written several Season 8s as fanfic.

That would be a case of Joss deliberatly writing something that he himself doesn't deem as canon. His name is attatched to "Tales" and he hasn't given any indication that he doesn't consider it canon.

And there are more than a few of the "Tales of..." stories that strain plausibility as canon. For instance, the idea that Xander was a four foot tall hunchback that Buffy left captive with Dracula for months or more.

Xander being Dracula's captive for several months without Buffy's intervention seemed to me a bit of a stretch too. But that was the one and only aspect of "Tales" that I had trouble believing. I can't think of any other times where it strained the plausibility of canon.


As for me, I consider canon to be: Buffy (TV), Angel (TV), Season 8, After the Fall, Fray, Tales of the Slayers, Tales of the Vamipres and the Origin. I consider Spike: Assylum and Shadow Puppets to be in canon limbo -they may or may not be canon, it's too early to be sure.

[KingofCretins]

Well, Like others have said, the various slayers from "Tales of the Slayer" appeared in "The Chain."

Betta George appears in "After the Fall"; "Asylum" still isn't canon.

If "Wolves at the Gate" makes reference to Xander's stay with Dracula, would that help cement "Tales" as canon for you? On the cover of "Wolves at the Gate" we see Xander and Dracula on a motorcycle, and in "Tales" Dracula mentions how Xander taught him to ride a motorbike.

Only that which is explicitly confirmed in "Wolves at the Gate" would be canon; having been adopted from the non-canon/quasi-canonical work into the canon.

Four foot hunchback needs to be explicitly established (or, more to the point, explicitly dispelled -- I agree with the idea that we should get revisionist flashbacks that show normal size, human Xander). Buffy leaving him there for months without any explanation would have to be put in as many words. Or Joss would have to just bluntly state in an email that those exact events are the canon.

"Antique" was the only story that was really illusion-breaking (although I didn't think much of "Righteous" -- nothing I've read of Joss' felt more like agenda writing than that did).

[Vampire in Rug]

Betta George appears in "After the Fall"; "Asylum" still isn't canon.

I consider "Asylum" and "Shadow Puppets" to be "quasi-canon". Maybe I'm too generous when it comes to canon. Still there are a few crumbs for us, George mentions that he's hung out with vampires before.

Four foot hunchback needs to be explicitly established (or, more to the point, explicitly dispelled -- I agree with the idea that we should get revisionist flashbacks that show normal size, human Xander).

I think hunchback Xander can be chalked up to his posture at the time, and the (admitedly) crappy artwork. I don't think we were supposed to assume that he was anything other than human.

Buffy leaving him there for months without any explanation would have to be put in as many words. Or Joss would have to just bluntly state in an email that those exact events are the canon.

Me, I'd fanwank and say that Buffy didn't know where Dracula's castle was located for several months, and that she knew that Xander wasn't in any real danger anyway.

[vampmogs]

Betta George appears in "After the Fall"; "Asylum" still isn't canon.

Yes but "Asylum" didn't have Whedon's name attatched to it.

I believe both 'Tales of the Vampires' and 'Tales of the Slayers' to be canon, it's always the impression I've gotten. I'll try and search for a quote from Joss on it because I swear I'd read one before? But it makes sense to me. Whedon also wrote 'Fray'and it's considered canon, especially with the inclusion of the scythe and now Fray's upcoming appearance in season 8.

And if they're calling Drac an old "ally" which I suspect he's the one they are calling that, then I think 'Tales of the Vampires' will be considered canon. But someone raised a great point on Whedonesque, the vampire who told the story may have tweaked it a little.. hyped up the vamp a little and make the humans and slayers look pathetic, which would explain Xander and Buffy's "off" behaviour in relation to what we are seeing now. So it can be tweaked.

But are you sure your not reluctant to call it canon because it butt monkeys Xander?

[Vampire in Rug]

A great point Vampmogs! I didn't even think of that. The individual stories are all being told by this one vampire (stories from both the past and future, I guess he might be a seer). There's always wiggle room when the stories are told second hand, even if the facts within the stories happen to be true.

The same thing is true of the green, batlike vampires in "The Origin". The whole story is told by Buffy, who is narrating her past to Willow and Xander. It's entirely believable that she may have eggagerated how hedious the vampires were.

[-beardo-]

Just because something appears like that on the page does not mean it is like that in that actual story if you know what i mean. E.g the vampires in The Origin and the look of Xander in tales, i mean does buffy actually look like that in real life. No she looks like sarah michelle gellar, its just the way it has been drawn.

Also, regarding antique, im pretty sure it is set in the events between chosen and season eight, but still there is nothing saying that it doesnt take place after/during season eight. im not saying that it does am i, im just saying there is nothing contradicting it daying it takes place before season eight. For all we know it couyld be set directly after wolves at the gate. i highly doubt it, but it is possible.

i think both tales comic series are canon.

[Cell]

Canon is quite honestly, whatever you decide to make of it. As a Star Wars fan, there is always the argument in that universe over what is canon, the expanded universe versus the movies and vice versa. The way I look at it is that you can either accept all the Buffy works as happening, Joss and company do sign off on them and make money off of them after all, or you can accept only what Joss says is canon, or you can accept only the original source material of the TV show as canon. It's all up to you, and intelligent discussion can be had no matter what option you choose.

[KingofCretins]

Canon is what the creator of the work says it is. George Lucas said all EU set after Jedi was canon, which is why it all had to be concordant when published. Unless or until he says otherwise, any content prior to Jedi is non-canon.

Fans can't just disengage and say that, for instance, Season 8 isn't canon -- they're just wrong. It's no more removable from the Buffy canon than Season 2 is or the UPN seasons.

Why is this important? Because

Spoiler:

Ethan Rayne

is dead, but

Spoiler:

Warren Meers

isn't. "After the Fall" deals in even bigger stories than those.

There are substantial plot and character developments going on, and intelligent conversation does become difficult if one half of the conversation has to indulge the other side basing their argument on things that aren't true anymore.

[Cell]

What the creator says has nothing at all to do with canon, never will and never has. They like to think that it does, but ti doesn't. It's the same as with the issue of intent, what the creator says really doesn't matter. When you put a product out for mass consumption and make money off of that product then it is now in the control of the consumer over whether or not they wish to view it as canon. It is the same way with intent, once you publish your work you can say you intended whatever you want to happen or that scene should be looked at in a certain way, but even as the creator your word is no longer gospel. TV, writing, etc. are interpretive arts and once you publish your work it all comes down to the interpretation of the fan, not your intent.

That's all I'm going to say on the issue though, because I tired of canon/intent arguments quite some time ago.

[Heather]

I'm confused. Cell, are you implying that the viewer can determine what's canon and what's not willy-nilly? If that's the case, then I could simply say "Ha! Season 4 is canon? My ass! Season 4 did not happen! Be gone, I say!"

I do think that accepting originally non-canon stories into canon (IE: all the other Buffy and Angel comics out there that aren't Season 8 or "After the Fall") is a much stickier topic of discussion because it's long after their publication (in most cases) that they're being accepted into canon.

Season 8 is canon. That's undeniable fact. Now, whether or not you choose to read it is a whole 'nother story but it's canon - so says Joss, so says the writers around him. You can choose to not read the story and pretend that it doesn't exist but that doesn't mean that it's not canon in reality.

I'm not sure if that last bit made sense. If it didn't, my apologies.

[Cell]

I understand what you are saying, but my main issue lies in what the writers say isn't canon. I view whatever is published that they make money off of as canon, and the original source material is always canon, otherwise you have no base to work off of. In that case all of the TV seasons and season 8m as well as AtF, of the comic are canon without question, and as the source material they can't be denied as being canon. The sticky situation comes with other novels and comics that are published where at that point it really becomes up to the individual consumer over what they do or don't accept as canon.

[Heather]

I understand what you are saying, but my main issue lies in what the writers say isn't canon. I view whatever is published that they make money off of as canon, and the original source material is always canon, otherwise you have no base to work off of. In that case all of the TV seasons and season 8m as well as AtF, of the comic are canon without question, and as the source material they can't be denied as being canon. The sticky situation comes with other novels and comics that are published where at that point it really becomes up to the individual consumer over what they do or don't accept as canon.

Ohh! I totally misunderstood what you were saying. Silly me. I thought you were trying to argue that Season 8 and AtF aren't canon just because Joss Whedon says it is. Whoops! I'm sorry.

I do agree with you, for the most part, that the novels and comics are cause of great debate when it comes to canon. Though, I personally reject the novels from canon (have any of them ever even been said to be canon?) and will only read/accept comics that are stated by Joss himself to be canon (IE: "Fray..." that's the only one I can think of right now...and I haven't even read that one yet ).

Again, sorry for the misunderstanding.