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Why Did Angel come back from Hell?

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  • Why Did Angel come back from Hell?

    I wanna know why Angel was back from hell ,was it bcuz the Power That Be still have unfinished work with Angel with the whole Shanshu prophecy & the whole that he is an important with big fight Good vs Evil?

    Or as many would say & believe & i,m one of them that Buffy's love was the main reason that he was back ,it could be true if you share that kind of love that Bangel have miracels happend.

    So tell me what you think about it?
    You Are The Only One
    Who Ever Touched My Heart
    It Will Always Be Yours.

    To The Icon Maker,Thanks

  • #2
    I personally think that the First brought Angel back, exactly as it claimed in "Amends". I don't believe that the Powers took action to intervene in his destiny until the end of the episode when the snow came to save him from himself.

    My reasoning is pretty simple. Ignoring that the storyline was eventually dropped with no explanation, the First clearly had a big yen for a vampire with a soul. In "Amends" and in Season 7, its attention was almost singularly fixed on controlling and corrupting a vampire with a soul to ignore its conscience and give in to its demon. In both cases, its plan called for the instrument of that corruption to be killing and draining Buffy ("Amends", "Sleeper"). Since it clearly had that as a goal, it makes perfect sense that it would have drawn Angel back from whatever hell dimension Buffy sent him to in "Becoming, Part II".

    However, when Angel resisted, I think that the Powers saw the potential that he had and intervened to make him their champion. As is more toward their habit, rather than doing this very overtly, it was done subtly, by changing the basic rules at the key moment. In this case, it was making it snow. Later, in "Epiphany" (Angel Season 2), it would be Angel being able to enter a home uninvited to save a woman's life.

    I don't think Buffy's love for Angel at the time had much to do with it one way or another -- if that alone could affect their reality, I tend to think Buffy would have remembered the events of "I Will Remember You". As it is, her love made it possible for him to start on that path by inspiring him to help her and by stalling any direct attempt he might have made to kill himself if he got tired of waiting for sunrise.
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    • #3
      I think it was the Powers that brought Angel back.

      Firstly, I don't believe the First would bring Angel back so that he could have another go at trying to kill Buffy, it doesn't make sense to me. Why would the First bring Angel back and wait half a year to try and do anything with him? Why not try and influence Angel when he was confused and in a feral state? It doesn't make sense to me that the First would take this long to do something with Angel when it exploited Spike when he wasn't in the right frame of mind.

      Secondly, the First says this isn't the plan but it will do, when Angel goes to kill himself. If the First's plan was to turn Angel dark and kill Buffy how would him killing himself and becoming useless do at all? If anything it is completely doing the opposite to what the First wanted. However, if the powers were responsible and the First tried to turn Angel dark so they didn't have another good warrior, either having that warrior turn dark or offing himself would do fine for the First.

      It makes sense to me that the Powers would bring Angel back to be their champion. When the First tried to exploit the situation and Angel went to kill himself, the Powers intervened and made the snow.

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      • #4
        I'm pretty sure it was the first. I also don't think it necessarily had anything to do with the fact that they were vampires with souls. I mean the vampire part was probably useful since that meant the first could take their guise if desired, but I lean towards the idea that the primary purpose was to weaken Buffy by messing with those she cared about.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
          I don't think Buffy's love for Angel at the time had much to do with it one way or another -- if that alone could affect their reality, I tend to think Buffy would have remembered the events of "I Will Remember You".
          It seems like the writers were trying to imply that it did, however. Many people read that message into the fact that Angel's reappearance happens immediately after Buffy visits Angel's mansion and leaves the ring behind. That's a rather indirect line of evidence, but it's something.

          As it is, her love made it possible for him to start on that path by inspiring him to help her and by stalling any direct attempt he might have made to kill himself if he got tired of waiting for sunrise.
          Not to mention allowing him to recover from the feral, crazed state of mind he showed in Beauty and the Beasts. Without Buffy, Angel would have stayed in that state much longer, and would have been totally vulnerable to manipulation by the First, just like what we saw with S7 Spike.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by Ojuice5001 View Post
            It seems like the writers were trying to imply that it did, however. Many people read that message into the fact that Angel's reappearance happens immediately after Buffy visits Angel's mansion and leaves the ring behind. That's a rather indirect line of evidence, but it's something.
            But how would Buffy's love be strong enough to open up the gateways to a hell dimension and release Angel from endless torment? It doesn't really make sense to me. Besides, Buffy went to Angel's mansion to let him go, so she could move on with her life. I'm not suggesting she didn't love him but she was attempting to move on, if anything why would this bring Angel back?

            Not to mention allowing him to recover from the feral, crazed state of mind he showed in Beauty and the Beasts. Without Buffy, Angel would have stayed in that state much longer, and would have been totally vulnerable to manipulation by the First, just like what we saw with S7 Spike.
            Giles states it takes someone of extraordinary character to come back from eternal torment and get over it, I think it had a lot to do with Angel's inner strength although some of it had to do with Buffy. Regardless, being inspired by his love for Buffy in no way compares to said love managing to break through dimensional gateways. That'd take some pretty powerful mojo, which the Powers would have and possibly The First. Angel is known to be a pretty strong character on the inside no matter what he or the First tried to make him believe. Angel managed to regain his sanity after a hundred years of torture and three months at the bottom of the ocean, and whilst he did try and commit suicide, unlike Spike Angel was able to break free from the First on his own.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
              I think it was the Powers that brought Angel back.

              Firstly, I don't believe the First would bring Angel back so that he could have another go at trying to kill Buffy, it doesn't make sense to me. Why would the First bring Angel back and wait half a year to try and do anything with him? Why not try and influence Angel when he was confused and in a feral state? It doesn't make sense to me that the First would take this long to do something with Angel when it exploited Spike when he wasn't in the right frame of mind.

              Secondly, the First says this isn't the plan but it will do, when Angel goes to kill himself. If the First's plan was to turn Angel dark and kill Buffy how would him killing himself and becoming useless do at all? If anything it is completely doing the opposite to what the First wanted. However, if the powers were responsible and the First tried to turn Angel dark so they didn't have another good warrior, either having that warrior turn dark or offing himself would do fine for the First.

              It makes sense to me that the Powers would bring Angel back to be their champion. When the First tried to exploit the situation and Angel went to kill himself, the Powers intervened and made the snow.
              I rather like this explanation--makes sense to me. I don't think we should always take what evil and deliberately manipulative characters say for granted as the truth--and so I don't think we should automatically believe the First when it says it brought Angel back anymore than we should believe everything that Skip says.

              Plus there is the whole Shanshu prophecy, the things the oracles said, etc, that would indicate an investment in Angel by the PTB--that's also why they were willing to do soemthing as drastic as write over a day, just to keep Angel as their champion. It seems that the Powers had already taken an interest in Angel in the first place when they sent Whistler (who, considering that they originally intended him to be in Doyle's place on ATS, I think we can take for granted as a similar agent of the PTB) to Angel to work for their cause and help the Slayer. So if they were willing to recruit him then, then have Whistler tell Buffy how to send Angel to hell to save the world for the time being...they probably then went in and got him, as they still needed him.

              In any case, it's very lame and annoying that that storyline (like many season 7 ones) was just dropped and left to be vague.
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              • #8
                It seems that the Powers had already taken an interest in Angel in the first place when they sent Whistler (who, considering that they originally intended him to be in Doyle's place on ATS, I think we can take for granted as a similar agent of the PTB) to Angel to work for their cause and help the Slayer. So if they were willing to recruit him then, then have Whistler tell Buffy how to send Angel to hell to save the world for the time being...they probably then went in and got him, as they still needed him.
                Whistler: It wasn't supposed to go down like this.....I figured this for Angel's big day. But I thought he was here to stop Acathla, not to bring him forth.

                and

                Buffy: What are you, just some immortal demon sent down to even the score between good and evil?
                Whistler: Wow. Good guess.

                Whistler was definately aware of a plan for Angel, and he more or less states he works for the PTB here.

                I've always thought that the PTB were interested in Angelus from the outset. I can't give an explanation for why they would've been interested in Liam originally, but it always seemed fated to me that a loser (Liam) became an ultra-formidable vampire who was "cut down" in his prime by a spell to give him a soul that seems to never have been performed before or since.

                Doesn't it seem odd that after the gypsies realised that they had succeeded in causing eternal torment to a vampire, that they would never do it again? Is it possible that the PTB had a hand in making the spell work just that one time? (Obviously, it did work again but - to our knowledge - only ever on Angel)

                Skip says in "Birthday" that the PTB missed Doyle passing on the visions to Cordelia, so isn't it also possible that they missed what was going on with Buffy and Angel and the fact that he would lose his soul when he slept with her. They are clearly not omnipotent (or they wouldn't need a champion anyway) so they had to allow things to continue on their course until the re-ensoulment of Angel, and his subsequant banishment to hell. It was then that they could act and return him to the earthly dimension, where he could continue his work for them. I believe that the First just used it as an opportunity to get one back at the PTB, in the same way that Jasmine manipulated Cordelia's ascendency to bring forth a slave state on Earth

                If we think about this, it seems a shame that Angel believes in Season 5 that "the powers are not in my corner anymore", when they have obviously invested so much time and effort on him! Or maybe, he just didn't turn out to be the champion they thought he would be?
                Last edited by ciderdrinker; 13-06-07, 02:58 PM.
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by ciderdrinker View Post
                  If we think about this, it seems a shame that Angel believes in Season 5 that "the powers are not in my corner anymore", when they have obviously invested so much time and effort on him! Or maybe, he just didn't turn out to be the champion they thought he would be?
                  Well again, it's hard to tell how much of what Skip says is true or just deception...but Whistler (who I think is much more trustworthy) does state that the PTB were thrown by Angel losing his soul, and obviously they were thrown for a loop when it came to Jasmine as well (thoguh they eventually got their act together and sent Darla to Connor, though it was too late by then).

                  I think the problem is that the powers didn't invest enough in him--or that their style is too "sit back and watch" rather than intervening. I don't think Angel could ever forgive the Powers for not stepping in and preventing the Jasmine situation with Cordy (which of course cut him deep given his love for Cordy), or for not intervening in that sooner, even when the victim herself, Cordy, obviously forgives them and still remains loyal to them in YW. But then again, it's not until episode 12 or so, when Angel is about to quit and get killed by Lindsey's plan (which is about to go into effect), that the Powers finally step in by waking Cordy up with an important vision to help alert Angel to Lindsey, get him to believe in himself again and "back on track," and to pass on one final vision to him to help him know what to do. But then again they also were pretty last minute in sending Whistler to Sunnydale--I think in general the PTB are very last-minute in their actions, b/c they would rather sit by and watch and not intervene in Earthly affairs--they'l only do so when there's absolutely no choice in the matter, and sometimes that's just too late, as seen in Inside Out.....

                  So I think it's b/c Angel was mad at the Powers for letting Jasmine happen and for this attitude, and that they were still employing this attitude in season 5, up until YW, that Angel had lost faith to such a degree in the PTB--I don't think it was b/c he was lacking....
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                  • #10
                    Yeah he may have came back to overcome Evil, just to make a statment that he is good so Buffy will love him. Thats what he wants Buffy back right?

                    He may have to win buffy's trust back soi the way to do it is to overcome evil to show buffy that he is not evil anymore
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Charmed_Forever View Post
                      Yeah he may have came back to overcome Evil, just to make a statment that he is good so Buffy will love him. Thats what he wants Buffy back right?

                      He may have to win buffy's trust back soi the way to do it is to overcome evil to show buffy that he is not evil anymore
                      Angel had no part in being brought back, he doesn't know why he was brought back or who brought him back. So whilst Angel does want to good and did want to be their for Buffy, he had no part in coming back from Hell.

                      One could argue that was one of the points of 'Amends.'

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                      • #12
                        I really think it was the First. I haven't heard much about the PTB but it seemed like a rather cruel idea to wait until Buffy let go of Angel, then send him back down. After messing with Buffy's mind, they thought they could use Buffy's apparent "letting-go" to make Angel go back to his normal, Angelus state. I'm thinking they didn't count on Buffy trying to get Angel back and caring about his fate that much.
                        Buffy: It sounds like it's difficult for you. Maybe your sister makes it hard for you to establish your own identity. You said she's controlling, she doesn't let you make your own decisions -
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                        • #13
                          I thin Angel, came out of hell because maybe there was still something missing like buffy, or he had to be on the earth for a reason maybe to help Spike but also maybe to help buffy even Angel didn't know why he was brought back so the question is still up in the air or down underground in this sitiation
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                          • #14
                            I've always been under the impression that the First had brought back Angel.. it ties in with everything that happens in that episode.. otherwise if we state that The Powers That Be brought Angel back, it renders Amends useless.

                            Originally Posted by vampmogs
                            Secondly, the First says this isn't the plan but it will do, when Angel goes to kill himself. If the First's plan was to turn Angel dark and kill Buffy how would him killing himself and becoming useless do at all? If anything it is completely doing the opposite to what the First wanted. However, if the powers were responsible and the First tried to turn Angel dark so they didn't have another good warrior, either having that warrior turn dark or offing himself would do fine for the First.
                            Don't you think the First would settle for a suicide if it cannot get what it wants? The First obviously looks disappointed when he sees that he cannot persuade Angel to work for him.. but considering it is the incarnation.. if it can eliminate a huge part of Buffy's life.. as well as an enemy.. I am sure it would prefer that then for him to live helping the world. The First knows Angel is strong.. why not settle for 2nd?

                            Angel managed to regain his sanity after a hundred years of torture and three months at the bottom of the ocean, and whilst he did try and commit suicide, unlike Spike Angel was able to break free from the First on his own.
                            Angel overcame the First by attempting to commit suicide?
                            Last edited by Nostalgia; 19-06-07, 10:28 PM.
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                            • #15
                              Well to be honest it could be both. Both are interested in the vampire with a soul and both of them could use him for a purpose. Giles says FE has the power to bring Angel back and they are the only one's who take the credit for it. As someone said it would have been the perfect way to destroy Buffy. Just as she's moving on bring him back, let her get attached to him again (which is why FE would have waited till Amends) and then have Angel(us) destroy her)

                              I agree that settling for suicide still doesn't contradict the idea of FE bringing Angel back because what else could they do? If they could emotionally destroy Buffy and eliminate a possible warrior for good, that's not a bad plan B.

                              The PTBs could also be responsible. They have both the power and an interest to bring him back.

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by kana View Post
                                The PTBs could also be responsible. They have both the power and an interest to bring him back.

                                Wesley: There's a design Angel....and you have your place in it.
                                Not to mention the fact that we already see the PTB taking an active interest in Angel in season 2 through Whistler, who undoubtedly was an agent of the PTB like Doyle was, getting Angel to work for them even then. Whistler also states that Angelus wasn't supposed to turn evil, that he was supposed to have defeated Acafla--which shows there was already a plan for Angel even then, but that it had goen wrong--and then Whistler tells Buffy how to send Angel to hell to fix the situation. It seems to me that the PTB realized they screwed up, made sure the problem was contained at the last minute, then, after having Buffy send Angel to hell, they got him out again (obviously they knew where he was since they told Buffy where to put him and how!) to get him back to work--probably waiting a while b/c either they had to for technical reasons, or they wanted Buffy to be moving on before they did b/c they needed Angel working apart, and didn't want anythign to happen to cause Angelus again.
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                                • #17
                                  Angel didn't overcome *anything* in "Amends". The First openly stated it was satisfied with him killing himself. Buffy was not successful in talking him out of it. The snow and just the snow prevented him being finished.
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                                  • #18
                                    Originally Posted by KingofCretins
                                    Angel didn't overcome *anything* in "Amends". The First openly stated it was satisfied with him killing himself. Buffy was not successful in talking him out of it. The snow and just the snow prevented him being finished.
                                    That's exactly what I said.. even though Angel still stayed alive.. he was going to commit suicide regardless of Buffy's love for him. If anything The First completely manipulated him.. and even than he did with Spike. He had control of Spike.. but it was without Spike's consent. With Angel.. Angel knew what he was doing.. he wasn't being used like a puppet.

                                    And back to vampmogs' comment.. Spike did overcome The First by himself.. in Lies My Parents Told Me, he goes through his past visions in his head.. ultimately realizing that he's not a pawn anymore.
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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Nostalgia View Post
                                      I've always been under the impression that the First had brought back Angel.. it ties in with everything that happens in that episode.. otherwise if we state that The Powers That Be brought Angel back, it renders Amends useless.
                                      No it doesn't, regardless of wether the First or the Powers brought Angel back the episode addresses issues with Oz and Willow, gets Buffy and Angel back together, introduces a major big bad, addresses Angel's situation and has a major theme of inner-strength and fighting pain.

                                      Don't you think the First would settle for a suicide if it cannot get what it wants? The First obviously looks disappointed when he sees that he cannot persuade Angel to work for him.. but considering it is the incarnation.. if it can eliminate a huge part of Buffy's life.. as well as an enemy.. I am sure it would prefer that then for him to live helping the world. The First knows Angel is strong.. why not settle for 2nd?
                                      The First lies constantly throughout s7, why is it so hard to believe the First would suddenly lie now about bringing Angel back? It had a chance to take a powerful warrior away from the powers and failed, hence it had no problem with Angel killing himself to eliminate that threat. The Powers rarely ever intervene with the earthly dimension but have done with Angel on a number of occasions, why is it so hard to believe they were the ones to bring Angel back when they've been interested in him from the beginning?


                                      Angel overcame the First by attempting to commit suicide?
                                      Not the most conventional forms of strength but yes he did, the First tried to make Angel kill Buffy and turn dark. It tried to drive him insane like it did Spike and almost succeeded, however Angel refused to give in and the First failed at its attempt.

                                      Originally posted by Nostalgia View Post
                                      That's exactly what I said.. even though Angel still stayed alive.. he was going to commit suicide regardless of Buffy's love for him. If anything The First completely manipulated him.. and even than he did with Spike. He had control of Spike.. but it was without Spike's consent. With Angel.. Angel knew what he was doing.. he wasn't being used like a puppet.
                                      The First manipulated Spike in more ways than just the trigger. The First was driving Spike insane in the basement just like it tried to drive Angel insane in 'Amends'. The First didn't have physical control over Spike then, only when it used the trigger on Spike. Nor was the First's plan ever to make Angel commit suicide, when it realised it couldn't control Angel it settled, stating "it will do." So how did the First ever manipulate Angel? It just settled for something it couldn't talk Angel out of doing.

                                      And back to vampmogs' comment.. Spike did overcome The First by himself.. in Lies My Parents Told Me, he goes through his past visions in his head.. ultimately realizing that he's not a pawn anymore.
                                      Spike wouldn't have overcome the First if it hadn't been for Giles' stone and Willow's spell, it revealed to him the source of the trigger. Spike then later gives credit to Wood's aid, stating "thanks Doc you cured me after all." Without Willow and Giles' help, Spike wouldn't have ever had those past visions.

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally Posted by vampmogs
                                        The First lies constantly throughout s7, why is it so hard to believe the First would suddenly lie now about bringing Angel back? It had a chance to take a powerful warrior away from the powers and failed, hence it had no problem with Angel killing himself to eliminate that threat. The Powers rarely ever intervene with the earthly dimension but have done with Angel on a number of occasions, why is it so hard to believe they were the ones to bring Angel back when they've been interested in him from the beginning?
                                        Because.. why would Joss have the First lie? What purpose would that serve? Obviously the idea had came across his mind.. so it just physically wouldn't make sense for him to mention something as powerful as that and have it be a lie... unless it had some further purpose down the road.. which it didn't. I really regret that they never dived deeper into the First/Angel relationship. It could of definetly been mentioned in season seven.. especially with the crossovers.

                                        Not the most conventional forms of strength but yes he did, the First tried to make Angel kill Buffy and turn dark. It tried to drive him insane like it did Spike and almost succeeded, however Angel refused to give in and the First failed at its attempt.
                                        I'm sorry but that's not overcoming.. that's settling for death. Despite the fact the First had been torturing Angel.. which is definetly proof that he isn't entirely blame worthy of being a coward.. Angel still gave up on life. He gave up on attempting to save the world.. making redemption.. "Amends." Suicide is never a succeed.. it may have prevented himself from killing Buffy.. but a truely won battle would be if he was to walk away from the First with the realization that he has a bigger purpose and that he can make up for his sins. As KoC stated, he didn't "overcome" anything. The fact that the First was still happy obviously shows that Angel still has succumbed to its desire.. just not the main desire it had wanted.

                                        The First manipulated Spike in more ways than just the trigger. The First was driving Spike insane in the basement just like it tried to drive Angel insane in 'Amends'. The First didn't have physical control over Spike then, only when it used the trigger on Spike. Nor was the First's plan ever to make Angel commit suicide, when it realised it couldn't control Angel it settled, stating "it will do." So how did the First ever manipulate Angel? It just settled for something it couldn't talk Angel out of doing.
                                        I'd like to see what your opinions on suicide are.. because to me it seems as if you don't see it as it should be necessary a guilty thing for the committer. I know I don't.. and this is why I am not stating that Angel is a coward.. especially considering he was being tortured by the First. However, manipulating Angel by making him feel so guilty to wait for the sun to rise. Did Spike ever give up and try to commit suicide? No, he accepted Buffy's invitation to Xander's apartment.

                                        Spike wouldn't have overcome the First if it hadn't been for Giles' stone and Willow's spell, it revealed to him the source of the trigger. Spike then later gives credit to Wood's aid, stating "thanks Doc you cured me after all." Without Willow and Giles' help, Spike wouldn't have ever had those past visions.
                                        You're right.. I am wrong. Spike definetly overcame The First with help from Giles and Willow.. along with Wood if you want to get technical. However, at least Spike was able to accept help... rather than give up on his duties.

                                        Also, overall.. there is just more evidence leaning towards the First resurrecting Angel.. specifically... you know.. in the script.
                                        Last edited by Nostalgia; 22-06-07, 09:28 AM.
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