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The Disruption of the Slayer line caused by Buffy's Resurrection

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  • The Disruption of the Slayer line caused by Buffy's Resurrection

    Hello Everyone

    This is my first thread here, I used to be a member of buffyworld forum, which I assume is the forum this forum remade from since the structure is too similar.

    I thought I should begin posting again with this topic.

    In the final season, we learn the reason that First is killing every single potential slayer, which he never attempted before is because a opportunity occurred. A disruption in the Slayer line, caused by Buffy living again from her second death.

    The specifics of this disruption have never been made clear during the series. Obvious Joss and the writers wanted us fans to speculate.

    So what should be the nature of this disruption?


    It could be because Buffy's living again, caused a way to track every potential slayers in existence whereas in the past all methods could only track the next slayer.

    Think about it, they also never made clear how they could tell which potential
    slay will be called after the death of the current slayer, neither did they specify how the powers are transfered for activation, that if they had those powers dormant in them and former slayer's death would activate the powers; or the powers are passed to the next slayer from the dead slayer.

    However the case, Buffy's resurrection may have caused the possible mystical connection among potential slayers to become disrupted, therefore creating a way of identifying all potential slayers in existence, thus leading the First taking the chance of eliminating one of its most powerful opposing force for good.

    That is my speculation

    What's yours?

    Comments? Thoughts?
    Last edited by DarkRobin; 11-02-08, 10:39 PM.

  • #2
    In the final season, we learn the reason that First is killing everyone single potential slayer, which he never attempted before is because a opportunity occurred. A disruption in the Slayer line, caused by Buffy living again from her second death.
    I'm usually quick to point out that Beljoxa's Eye does not specify *which* death of Buffy's it's referring to. I'm also not aware of any commentary or interview that specifies.

    For me, what's most likely is that the Slayer line disruption that drew the First out of balance was when Buffy died in "Prophecy Girl" and Xander brought her back. That's when Kendra was called, and when the Slayer line was divided for the first time. With Buffy and Kendra both active, there was no longer balance in the sense of 'one girl in all the world'.

    I don't think its insignificant to looking at the First and its agenda and the reasons for it taking action that we notice that it appears first in Season 3, not Season 7. The sleeping tiger, if you will, was awake at that point. And it simply wasn't until Season 7 that it was ready to proceed in earnest.

    I tend to think that it's original goal was to use Angel as its vessel, and when it failed to get him to give himself over, it went out on a search, and found Caleb. That's probably would took the time between.

    I do find your theory about the ability to identify and locate Potentials interesting. We don't really have much text one way or another. Although, I tend to think not. If you go back to Season 3, in the various petty rivalries between Giles and Mrs. Post and Giles and Wesley, it's implied that any given Watcher may or may not have already "had" a Slayer. If one assumes that's a term of convenience, the question could be taken as being whether or not they had been in charge of a Potential's training before.

    I bring that up because, if it had to do with Buffy, than even the Council wouldn't have been able to locate and train the Potentials before that. And Kendra and Faith, that we know of, were Potentials who had been trained. Part of what makes Buffy's character unique is that she had slipped through the cracks and gone untrained before being called.

    Here's a question, though -- why bother with Buffy? Why wouldn't the Council just have killed her and let the mantle go to someone that they had already trained?
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    • #3
      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
      Here's a question, though -- why bother with Buffy? Why wouldn't the Council just have killed her and let the mantle go to someone that they had already trained?
      I think just killing Buffy because she's not quite up to snuff would be too extreme behaviour even for the Council. At least when they went after Faith they had reasons for doing so. Also, I think they'd just figure that somebody unprepared for the job would get cut down pretty sharpish anyway. What's the point in them getting involved in such nasty practices when a demon or vampire is just going to do the job for them? I'm quite convinced that they has probably been a few Slayers that had that title for mere days.

      One thing I've always wondered about is why the Council stopped trying to kill Faith once she was in the clink. They seemed hell bent on doing the job before she turned herself in, and they certainly know that a conventional prison won't hold a Slayer. I find it hard to believe they would just readily accept that Faith was trying to reform and go on their merry way. Also, they had to have other concerns regarding the Slayer line. Like us, they had to be considering the possibility that the line runs solely through Faith. I firmly believe that they would kill Faith even if they believed she was trying to redeem herself, if it meant protecting the line.

      Which leads me to my annoyance at their lack of movement after "The Gift". Any suspicions they had about Faith carrying on the line have been all but confirmed. Buffy is dead, and there is no new Slayer. So why aren't they taking one of their only two options, which I see as: a) take a chance on Faith. Convince her to bust out of the slammer and continue on with her as the Slayer or, b) Kill her to activate a new potential. Like I mentioned, they didn't seem all that receptive of Faith attempting redemption, so b) seems the choice for them.

      Seriously, what were they doing? Sitting on their arses, scoffing crumpets and waiting for a new girl to be called? I even see them making an attempt at Faith's life after Buffy's resurrection, to avoid the same problem occuring in the future.

      In my head, Faith was probably wary of an attack from the Council whilst she was in jail. An idea that always pops into my mind when watching "Salvage" or "Dirty Girls" is that Faith likely assumed that the "nasty looking knife" had something to do with the Council before she was informed about Caleb and The First.

      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
      I bring that up because, if it had to do with Buffy, than even the Council wouldn't have been able to locate and train the Potentials before that. And Kendra and Faith, that we know of, were Potentials who had been trained. Part of what makes Buffy's character unique is that she had slipped through the cracks and gone untrained before being called.
      I'm not sure about Faith being trained. She certainly comes across as somebody who hasn't been. It's potentially believable that an attempt was made, and that Faith was just completely unreceptive to the teachings. I find that idea unlikely though, mainly because I got the impression Faith liked her Watcher. In the brief moment that we got to see her reaction to the woman's murder, there seemed to be honest affection there. I always thought one of the reasons Faith was too trusting of Gwen Post was because of the positive relationship with her former Watcher. That being said, if Faith genuinely liked the woman, wouldn't she at least try to let her do her job and teach her? I think so.

      I guess you could invent a reason why Faith comes across as untrained, even though she was, such as the idea that she actually did try, like I suggested, and just wasn't any good at taking the lessons to heart (I find that a bit hard to believe) or the preferable idea that she has shunned everything was taught because she's acting out in response to her Watcher's death, but I find it a more natural conclusion that she was another girl that slipped through the cracks, or she was only located a very short time before she was called.

      I also find it hard to believe that even Faith would object to fight training. The way she fights comes off as unrefined. I think that's more evidence that indicates that she wasn't trained, or was trained very little.

      My view on the Watcher's locating Potentials is that is has varying degrees of success. Although I think it's unlikely that a girl would slip through the cracks and end up being called, I don't think Buffy is unique in that respect. Like I stated above, I think Faith comes across as having possibly done the same. I don't think the method the Council have is foolproof. I think the Council find every Potential sooner or later at some point. For most, sooner or later is okay, because the vast majority will never be called (thinking pre-Chosen here, obviously). But for those that are, sooner or later isn't good enough. Unfortunately, the Watchers don't have a way of knowing whose going to get the nod next, so unless they can find one, they're bound to drop the ball occasionally.
      Last edited by OkinawanSteel; 11-02-08, 02:20 PM.

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      • #4
        Hi DarkRobin! And welcome to Buffyforums. You are right this forum is a newer and better version of buffyworld forums. Anyways before I started I wanted to say nice thread. I was actually considering starting one looking at similar issues myself. Great minds think alike eh. For this post I am going to give myself a few questions and then give my answer to them before replying to posts made by other members.

        Which of the deaths do you think caused the disruptions?

        Honestly in my opinion it was the second of Buffy's two deaths that caused the disruption. We know from the Beljoxa's eye that it wasn't the death of Buffy that caused the disruption but simply the fact that she was alive again. I think that if it's the issue of Buffy being alive again that's the problem. The second resurrections makes more often. The first time around Buffy was destined to die and I am convinced that she was destined to meet Xander and Willow because as we know from later seasons. She was needed around for far longer to help protect the Sunnydale hellmouth. The differences in the two resurrections also convince me that the second resurrection is the cause of the disruption in the slayer line rather than the first. The first time around Buffy is resurrected through the natural means of CPR. We know that from this point onwards that the slayer line was done with Buffy and instead ran through Kendra who passed the powers of the slayer on to Faith.

        The second time however around is much different. This time she is resurrected using the powers of magic. We know from the season four finale Restless that the slayer line can be extremely volatile and the use of magic to tamper with it can cause unforeseen effects. I am convinced that the slayer line was touched upon during the resurrection particularly when you listen to Willow. "Here lies the warrior of the people let her cross over" I also have another theory in relation to those words that I will talk about in my next point.

        The Slayer line and Season 7's annoying "I have to die for you to be called"

        So I am sure we have all noticed and being annoyed or at least read of others annoyance with Buffy's constant reference to her death causing the activation of the next slayer, and for good reason too. We all know that the line should now be running through Faith rather than Buffy that's why no slayer was called upon Buffy's death in the portal at the end of Season five. So is this just simply writer's error or just a reflection of the little Buffy truly knows about the slayer line.

        I don't think its either I think Buffy's right even if she doesn't know it. I think that the slayer line does run through Buffy once again and that's apart of the disruption that the Beljoxa's eye refers to. You want to know why I said it because of the wording of the spell that I mentioned. "Here's lies the warrior of the people, let her cross her!" its obvious that at this point in the spell that the wording of the spell isn't just talking about Buffy, but rather the slayer the warrior of the people. So what if not only Buffy was resurrected but her position as THE slayer rather than A slayer was also changed. This would certainly explain the disruption in the slayer line as one could theorise that either the slayer line is truly running through two girls at the one time for the first time or that the slayer spirit has backtracked and has in fact returned to Buffy. Certainly either way this is a disruption with the flow of the slayer line? Particularly if being the true Slayer was now shared through the two girls rather than Faith being The Slayer and Buffy just being A slayer.

        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
        I tend to think that it's original goal was to use Angel as its vessel, and when it failed to get him to give himself over, it went out on a search, and found Caleb. That's probably would took the time between.
        Hmm a very interesting theory King, but one that I think a few questions needs to be answered before you could consider it plausible. If it was Buffy's death in prophesy girl that threw the balance off and made the first decide that it was time to make its onslaught on the slayer line. Where exactly was it for the duration of Season 2? Especially from Innocence onwards when Angelus is activate and loose? Wouldn't this be the opportune time to get Angelus on side and make a deal with him so that he could become his vessel? I mean surely if he wanted Angel/Angelus as his vessel this would have been the best time for him to strike?

        Originally posted by OkinawanSteel View Post
        One thing I've always wondered about is why the Council stopped trying to kill Faith once she was in the clink. They seemed hell bent on doing the job before she turned herself in, and they certainly know that a conventional prison won't hold a Slayer. I find it hard to believe they would just readily accept that Faith was trying to reform and go on their merry way. Also, they had to have other concerns regarding the Slayer line. Like us, they had to be considering the possibility that the line runs solely through Faith. I firmly believe that they would kill Faith even if they believed she was trying to redeem herself, if it meant protecting the line?
        Actually that's a question that I have always wondered myself, but never been able to fully answer. Then again in my opinion the show has often portrayed the council in different lights. There are instances where they are portrayed as being so hard they may as well be the bad guys, key instances of this being The Wish or Graduation Day Part Part I. But then there are other instances where they don't seem to be. One of these is the fact that they didn't kill Faith to protect the slayer line and allow for a new slayer to be active after the events of Season 5 since for all the council knew Buffy their replacement of sorts was gone for good.

        Also in relation to Buffy and her relationship with the council? From what we have seen of them they have seemed obsessed with the idea of protecting the slayer line and of ensuring that the slayer remains under the control of the council. This is made clear by Quentin Travers in Checkpoint when he states, "The slayer is simply the instrument through which the council fights evil" So why didn't the council kill Buffy at the end of Season 3? After her so-called "munity"? Instead of coming back in Season 5 and basically trying to give themselves a purpose by attempting to force Buffy to work with them again?
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        • #5
          Hmm a very interesting theory King, but one that I think a few questions needs to be answered before you could consider it plausible. If it was Buffy's death in prophesy girl that threw the balance off and made the first decide that it was time to make its onslaught on the slayer line. Where exactly was it for the duration of Season 2? Especially from Innocence onwards when Angelus is activate and loose? Wouldn't this be the opportune time to get Angelus on side and make a deal with him so that he could become his vessel? I mean surely if he wanted Angel/Angelus as his vessel this would have been the best time for him to strike?
          I don't think it really even rises to the level of needing fanwank -- the First is a very primal thing, I give it, by presumption, the benefit of thinking and acting in slow and deliberate moves. It may have been thinking. It may have been slow to become self-aware in a way necessary to take direct action.

          Or, if I do fanwank it, I prefer the notion that it's vessel must be a corrupted being -- that Angel was actually *less* useful to it without his soul than with it. And it wasn't until Angel was reensouled and in hell that it realized it might have a handy tool available. So it brings him back and starts working on him.

          That would also bring with it the rather interesting notion that Caleb was essentially a sincere guy at one point, a preacher with just a bit too much ego and a bit too much restlessness, and that all of his serial killing and everything else was the result of the First working on him after it failed to win Angel to its side.

          The other reason I think it's about "Prophecy Girl" is because it brings some reality to the thing Joss promised and that the First said in "Lessons" -- back to the beginning.

          Actually that's a question that I have always wondered myself, but never been able to fully answer. Then again in my opinion the show has often portrayed the council in different lights. There are instances where they are portrayed as being so hard they may as well be the bad guys, key instances of this being The Wish or Graduation Day Part Part I. But then there are other instances where they don't seem to be. One of these is the fact that they didn't kill Faith to protect the slayer line and allow for a new slayer to be active after the events of Season 5 since for all the council knew Buffy their replacement of sorts was gone for good.
          I think the answer is that they really are good guys. Hard and pragmatic and officious, but they were, in fact, on the right side. That's why they didn't kill Buffy at the beginning, why they didn't kill her in Season 3, perhaps even why they didn't kill Faith in prison -- they knew she was the only thing keeping her there, after all.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
            I think the answer is that they really are good guys. Hard and pragmatic and officious, but they were, in fact, on the right side. That's why they didn't kill Buffy at the beginning, why they didn't kill her in Season 3, perhaps even why they didn't kill Faith in prison -- they knew she was the only thing keeping her there, after all.
            I think the show presents differing views on the Council at different times. Sometimes, they come across as harsh and too authoritative, but essentially good, and other times they do come across as being domineering and just about as bad as the bad guys. My view on them is that, yes, they are on the side of good, but they are a group of people who will do whatever they feel is necessary without a second thought. They're uncompromising, and they tend to take the hard line.

            I think that killing Buffy for defying them, again, is too extreme a move even for people who make as strong decisions as they do. They'd need a decent reason, and not having the Slayer under their thumb isn't reason enough. I think that making the decision to kill Faith was probably straightforward for them, though. She was completely out of control (way more so than Buffy, who whilst not taking orders from them, is still doing pretty much the same duties they'd have her doing), people were in danger, she was of no use to them, and by killing her, they'd get a new slayer out of it. I think that was quite a black and white choice for them.

            I really struggle to believe that they'd just change their minds based on Faith turning herself in. Even Buffy didn't seem to think her redemption kick would last, and she (at that point anyway) had a much less cynical approach than I see them as having. Also, I don't think they got to see any hint of remorse from Faith. I could see them believing that it was all some sort of ploy. There was still plenty of people potentially in danger if she were to snap in jail too. They strike me as being of an exceedingly cautious mindset. I think they'd either want Faith completely under their supervision, or want her eliminated. Nothing in between.

            I think it's worth nothing that they probably had this dicussion when Faith was in her coma, and if it did, they obviously opted not to kill her at that time. On one hand, that makes me think they slightly considered giving her a chance, and might have done the same once she turned herself in to the police, but on the other hand, it makes me think they'd be less likely to change their stance, because they took the less severe option once, and it caused nothing but aggro, therefore making them more inclined not to tread lightly again. Or, it's possible they honestly didn't believe Faith would wake up, and the limited amount of control they could exercise by placing an operative in the hospital was sufficient for them in this situation. How quick they were to dispatch the wetworks team leads me to believe they weren't really considering given Faith a second chance, though.

            I'm just thinking out loud here. But, whilst I find it unlikely, I can wank reasons for the Council not trying to kill Faith after she dobbed herself in. I can't invent any believable reasoning for them doing sod all after Buffy's second (and more permanent) death though. Like I said, I felt they had two options. Take a chance on Faith, convince her to break out and move on from their, or cut their losses, kill her and ensure themselves a Slayer. Having them do nothing at all is completely ridiculous. There is no active Slayer, and without making one of the decisions I suggested, they have no way of getting a new one. They have no "instrument" to fight evil with. What the bollocks were they planning on doing then?

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            • #7
              Thank you guys for your comments

              KingofCretins:

              All the things your mentioned are interesting. But I think your got off track a bit, since this is supposed to be discussion of the details and nature of the disruption of the Slayer line, which gave First the opportunity to wipe out the Slayers once for all.

              I don't believe it matter which death of Buffy's caused the disruption, as it's most likely the second. If her first death caused it, the second resurrection obviously made it even worse as it happened because of magical influence, if it was the second alone, still very likely because of the magic.

              Vampmaster:

              We have yet to see your comments on what exactly was the disruption.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by OkinawanSteel View Post
                Which leads me to my annoyance at their lack of movement after "The Gift". Any suspicions they had about Faith carrying on the line have been all but confirmed. Buffy is dead, and there is no new Slayer. So why aren't they taking one of their only two options,
                In my opinion, that's easy. They're not doing anything because they don't know that Buffy is dead. Her friends went to great lengths to keep her death a secret... burying her in the woods, and using the Buffybot as a decoy. They didn't even tell her own father she was dead; why would they tell the Council?

                While on the subject of the Council, I agree with the people saying that they're generally on the side of Good, but willing to be cold and ruthless to achieve their aims. In Season 7 Travers was quoting Winston Churchill, and so we can guess he admired him. And Churchill was the man who, in order to defeat Hitler, was willing to drop firebombs on German civilians... and after France surrendered, ordered a fleet to attack and sink the French Navy - with French sailors still on board - on the off-chance the Germans might confiscate the ships and use them against Britain. 'The end justifies the means'.


                Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                Or, if I do fanwank it, I prefer the notion that it's vessel must be a corrupted being -- that Angel was actually *less* useful to it without his soul than with it. And it wasn't until Angel was reensouled and in hell that it realized it might have a handy tool available. So it brings him back and starts working on him.

                That would also bring with it the rather interesting notion that Caleb was essentially a sincere guy at one point, a preacher with just a bit too much ego and a bit too much restlessness, and that all of his serial killing and everything else was the result of the First working on him after it failed to win Angel to its side.
                This is just a great theory; it fits everything.

                I've always thought that The First is more interested in corrupting people and sowing fear, despair and betrayal than It is in actually causing mayhem and destruction. A soulless vampire is just a tool for It to use; turning a Champion of the Powers (and the Slayer's lover) into a willing servant of evil is far more satisfying.

                Plus there's the fact that the thing that finally defeats It is not the dead ubervamps or the destruction of the Hellmouth... the precise moment It gives up is when Buffy refuses to give up, and tells It to 'get out of my face'. A moral victory, not a physical one.

                Originally posted by DarkRobin
                We have yet to see your comments on what exactly was the disruption
                I wrote about this in depth once, but summarised, my theory goes something like this:

                The Shadowmen bound the essence of a True Demon through magic, forcing it to inhabit and empower the bodies of successive Slayers. When one died, the binding spell compelled this 'Slayer Spirit' to pass into the body of the next Potential in line... in theory. In practice, the Slayer Spirit tried to resist the spell, sometimes finding a totally unexpected girl to become the next Chosen One instead of the Potential the Shadowmen or their successors expected to be next.

                Buffy's death and rebirth put the binding spell under great strain, because now it was being stretched to bind the Slayer Spirit to two Slayers at the same time. The spell was weakened, and The First calculated that if all current Potentials were dead at the moment both Buffy and Kendra/Faith died, then the spell wouldn't be strong enough to compel the Slayer Spirit to find a new host. It would be released, and no more Slayers would be Chosen.

                (I also assume that Buffy's first death awoke The First. However, not only did It take years to lay its plans and find a suitable instrument... we know from 'Amends' that It can only take visible form in one place if summoned by a team of Harbingers. Presumably recruiting enough to materialise in Sunnydale took It 18 months or so... and it wasn't until Season 7 that It had enough of them to take visible form on a more or less regular basis.)
                Last edited by stormwreath; 24-02-08, 02:33 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by DarkRobin View Post
                  Thank you guys for your comments

                  Vampmaster:

                  We have yet to see your comments on what exactly was the disruption.
                  Oh I am sorry I thought I had I guess I didn't make myself too clear.

                  In my opinion the disruption was caused by Buffy being alive again and one again being The Chosen one as a slayer. This is because Faith who was meant to be the chosen one of this generation is still alive and so the slayer spirit of sorts has been split between the two girls for the first time. While up until her resurrection the spirit lay with Faith and Buffy simply had remnants of it from her time as THE slayer up until Prophechy Girl.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Vampmaster View Post
                    Oh I am sorry I thought I had I guess I didn't make myself too clear.

                    In my opinion the disruption was caused by Buffy being alive again and one again being The Chosen one as a slayer. This is because Faith who was meant to be the chosen one of this generation is still alive and so the slayer spirit of sorts has been split between the two girls for the first time. While up until her resurrection the spirit lay with Faith and Buffy simply had remnants of it from her time as THE slayer up until Prophechy Girl.
                    Well then I guess you agree with me, your speculation is about the same as mine, that Buffy living again must have messed up the Slayer line in the way the connection between Slayer and potential(s) became...messed up, giving the First a way to track down every potentials, that's why it started arranging to have them all killed in season 7.

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