Buffy, Feminism, Maternity, and Her Future

[KingofCretins]

Buffy, as of Season 8, is about 24 years old. If she were real, she'd be turning 27 years old this month. She is at an age were most women of her socio-economic background and education are likely to begin thinking about their future vis a vis marriage, family, and children.

For years, these would have probably been worth nothing more than a bitter laugh from her, but in 2003, she came up with a plan that completely redefined her personal freedom of choice by activating the potential Slayers.

What I'm wondering is... do you think Buffy wants kids? Do you think she'd be a good mother? If she did or didn't, what do you think that would say about her as a feminist icon? *Should* she want kids?

I personally think Buffy does want children some day. She looks pretty disappointed in "Bad Eggs" (I think) to learn that Angel, as a vampire, is sterile, and her off-hand metaphor for a lasting relationship in "Chosen" was "fat grandchildren". I think she'd be as good a mother as hers was.

[Nina]

I think that Buffy always wanted a normal life. It wouldn't suprise me if Buffy wants a husband, kids and a dog. And if she finds the right guy and she is ready to be a mother, I think she will be a good mother. Buffy is a warm person who cares about others very much (well except season 7 ... but I'm ignoring that one.), so why shouldn't she be a good mother?

And about the feministic view, I think the time that feministic women shouldn't get childeren is far behind us.

[holypotatoes]

Yeah I think Buffy wants kids one day. I think she would be a great mom. I mean she's basically one already when it comes to Dawn. She's gone through so much stuff at such a young age I think her having a kid would be a piece of cake. If they ever had questions she would probably be the mom that tells you how it is and doesn't sugar coat things unless need be. Joyce was a great role model for motherhood but I think Buffy would be able to capitalize on what she learned from Joyce and be an even better mother. All in all she would be a great mom and deserves to be able to have one but knowing our Buffy she has such bad luck that she would find out she wouldn't be able to have one or something horrible like that.

[sueworld]

Buffy, as of Season 8, is about 24 years old. If she were real, she'd be turning 27 years old this month. She is at an age were most women of her socio-economic background and education are likely to begin thinking about their future vis a vis marriage, family, and children.

Trouble is she's far from being a 'most women' isn't she?

I doubt that bringing a child into the equation would be a good idea given her lifestyle. But saying that I believe that she'll probaly want kids, but whether or not she'll actually go as far as having a relationship that lasts long enough to give her what she wants is anyones guess.

"It's all about the mission".....

[Ehlwyen]

I have to agree with holypotatoes. The purpose of Dawn was about letting Buffy be a mother herself. She lost hers but was able to channel her love, respect, and memory of Joyce into being a mother to the flesh of her flesh Dawn. Dawn really did not belong to Joyce, the monks made her from Buffy. And like all parents, Buffy would have rather died than outlive her child, hence the plunge in the Gift. So we did at least see Buffy express her maternal side already.

But yes, I definitely see Buffy as a mother but not for many years considering the point in her life she is at in S8. However, I cannot see how wanting children affects her role as a "feminist" icon. She has an ability and if so chooses to embrace it, then that is empowering. IMO, to deny it simply for fear of losing oneself would be more degrading to her as a "feminist" icon.

[KingofCretins]

There are so many rival theories of feminism, I figured I should include it, because I know there are some feminist ideas under which *any* woman who would deign to reproduce personally rather than by proxy through surrogacy, or adoption, or simply eschewing motherhood is tacitly submitting to male authority of some kind.

I think that's all nonsense, actually. I agree that there is nothing about being a mother (or being a housewife, even) that is per se unfeminist.

Personally, I think Buffy does want children -- it can be read into a good deal of things. It might be a while before she settles on a dad for them, but I have trouble not seeing her standing in front of group of Slayers with a baby on her hip, showing them how to properly whittle stakes for maximum aerodynamics. Or, even basically retired except for nightly patrols of somewhere she's settled down, teaching martial arts or working as a cop or a guidance counselor by day or part-time, Slaying, and raising her kids in the suburbs. That's the walking, talking, shopping, sneezing Buffy, when I picture her as a 35 year old woman or so.

[electroGwen]

If she's still all about the mission then I doubt she would have a kid. Well that is if she learned anything from Wood. I think Spike knows more about that whole thing. If she is to into the mission then she just shouldn't have kids. I think if she found a guy that she felt she could luv and be there for as much as she said she was for ANgel but not Riley, than she would think she could be there for her child. But maybe she would think a guy would be a all that she could handle. That she could only take herself away from the fight enough to be with a guy. I think it has to do with whats at the top of her list, the mission or normality. A guy and kids are on her list but where.
"*Should* she want kids?" Well I always thought that she should be going around the world trying to kill evil and save people instead of staying 1 place. That she should be more like her Doubleganger. As the slayer its not should she its she shouldn't. She should around the world and fight and a kid shouldn't be brought into that. The kid would suffer. But a guy might not.

[ThePoet's<3]

I could see her wanting children, husband, family someday. But somehow I don't think she will as long as she is Slayer. Not unless she "semi-retires" from service. I see the Slayer's children - especially Buffy's - as targets for all types of mischief. Unless she sends then into hiding. And I can see her not wanting to have them because of what happened to Nicki and Robin. She will always be in danger and bring danger to those around her.

She is a surrogate mother to the other Slayers - in a way - as well as the relationship she used to have with Dawn. That may be all the family she will have.

Makes me wonder if Buffy's life will begin as soon as the magicks are over. I'm guessing that "everyone" in the demon world will either die or return to "normal".

[Ehlwyen]

There are so many rival theories of feminism, I figured I should include it, because I know there are some feminist ideas under which *any* woman who would deign to reproduce personally rather than by proxy through surrogacy, or adoption, or simply eschewing motherhood is tacitly submitting to male authority of some kind.

I think that's all nonsense, actually. I agree that there is nothing about being a mother (or being a housewife, even) that is per se unfeminist.

I know. I often clash with the ideas of feminism. It's my own belief that to deny yourself out of fear is worse than being subjugated. Being true to yourself makes you more of a role model.

Personally, I think Buffy does want children -- it can be read into a good deal of things. It might be a while before she settles on a dad for them, but I have trouble not seeing her standing in front of group of Slayers with a baby on her hip, showing them how to properly whittle stakes for maximum aerodynamics.

Haahaa!! I had that same mental picture of her with the baby in a sling at her hip when I first read your topic! But it's hard to imagine Buffy not being capable of anything. She really embodies the hopes and aspirations of each of us.

Personally, I just wish she'd do a little non-serious dating before settling down again. I've always disliked how she will swing from one intense relationship to the next. I don't think she's found herself yet and until she does, I think she would be better off not having a child.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Buffy, as of Season 8, is about 24 years old. If she were real, she'd be turning 27 years old this month. She is at an age were most women of her socio-economic background and education are likely to begin thinking about their future vis a vis marriage, family, and children.

Yes, I think Buffy would probably be interested in having kids. Though, in Dawn, she's already kinda got them! So it would be a complicated kind of motherhood I think...though perhaps only as complicated as a lot of people have (eg kids from two marriages, adopted kids, IVF etc).

I wonder how a slayer body would affect childbirth? I mean, might she have to have a c section in case her super cervix crushed the kid's head? When Faith-in-Buffy talks about having muscles Spike could never imagine (or words to that effect) it makes me assume (dirty mind?) that he means, erm, those muscles.

In terms of most women of her social situation, 27 might be when you start thinking about it. Though with her slayerness and her role in the international Scooby organisation, I'd say that would be pushed back til she was in her early thirties. I wonder if slayerness has any effect on fertility? Maybe she's jsut super in all ways so her eggs would be supereggs?

I'm picturing Buffy going on some kind of supernatural/underworld internet dating site when she gets to about 32. After all, she'd want to meet people who'd understand her lifestyle. Perhaps she could have some half demon kids with a Doyle-type bloke? True rainbow family.

I know. I often clash with the ideas of feminism. It's my own belief that to deny yourself out of fear is worse than being subjugated. Being true to yourself makes you more of a role model.

I don't think that many feminists currently take that position though. At least, none of the ones I've talked to. On the whole, the feminist project (though obv there are many strands of it) is more about giving women the tools to make their own choices. One important part of that is allowing them to have children without limiting their other options too much. So, employers giving good maternity packages etc. Which...I'm thinking will be quite important for the slayer organisation, given the vast majority of their employees will be women!

If...are the slayers getting paid?? Hope so! If Buffy's nicking diamonds, she should at least be doing the robin hood thing and stealing from the rich to give to the poor (teenage slayers).

Haahaa!! I had that same mental picture of her with the baby in a sling at her hip when I first read your topic! But it's hard to imagine Buffy not being capable of anything. She really embodies the hopes and aspirations of each of us.

I imagine Buffy moving more into a teaching role as she gets older, and there's no reason why she shouldn't be able to combine having kids with that. The kids could play with her old weapons that are less sharp.

Personally, I just wish she'd do a little non-serious dating before settling down again. I've always disliked how she will swing from one intense relationship to the next. I don't think she's found herself yet and until she does, I think she would be better off not having a child.[/QUOTE]

[buffyholic]

Yeah, I think Buffy will want to have children someday. She always wanted a normal life and children are definitively part of a plan. I think she would turn out to be a great mom!

[OkinawanSteel]

I don't really see any of that happening. Especially with things the way they are now. I actually think she had more chance of having marriage/kids before spreading the Slayer powers. The way things are now, she's running a huge organization, so far removed from society, isolated in a big castle in the arsehole of nowhere. There would need to be big changes before she could even start considering building a family life.

Even if she retired completely (which is also something I don't really see happening), I think she'd always be a target. She's one of the original Slayers, she's the one that most of the others consider their "queen". She's got a lot of accomplishments to her name. I think any demon or vamp trying to build a reputation would want to take her down. Hell, even the more famous monsters would think killing Buffy was a big achievement.

I don't see her ever getting away from slaying completely. I honestly think happiness for Buffy would be a life where she had her friends and had a partner that she loved and could be with permanently. Marriage, I think is a possibility. I don't see kids in the offing. I believe Dawn's the one most likely to carry on the Summers' blood line. (I could see her naming one of her kids after her sister.)

Buffy's not even someone I expect to live especially long.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Buffy's not even someone I expect to live especially long.

That's gloomy! But, as Sweet says, perhaps that's life? Maybe you're right that Buffy can't have a normal life even now... or perhaps especially now? Mind you, Presidents and whatnot have kids, and their kids are under threat all the time (cf The West Wing and the kidnapping/shooting incidents!). So, perhaps she still can. Although her kids would be at a higher risk than the kids of, say, a banker... well, the world is full of risk, and plenty of people have children despite these things. I mean, plenty of people have kids even if they know they're not likely to live that long (eg soldiers, people with terminal diseases).

But Buffy might be the sort of person who'd feel too guilty to do that?

[KingofCretins]

If one wants to get blunt, is she *that* much more likely to get killed on her job day to day than, for instance, a New York City police officer? A commercial fisherman? Yet, these people go on with their lives.

Or, perhaps that weird, origami dude in "Blade Runner" said it best. I won't quote it, since people who've seen the movie will know what I'm talking about

[OkinawanSteel]

That's gloomy!

I don't think I'm being especially gloomy. I was watching "The Gift" recently, and thinking about Buffy dying. Actually, whilst we were watching, a friend reminded me of Xena dying in the last episode of that show. People were so pissed off about that (although to be fair, some of them had a point. The episode was shite and the context of her death was complete trash.) But when I sat there and thought about her character and the kind of life she led and all the things she'd been through up to that point, it felt inkeeping with the character to go out that kind of way. I think the same applies to Buffy. When I think of her character and ask myself the question "is this a person I expect to grow old?" the answer is no.

well, the world is full of risk, and plenty of people have children despite these things. I mean, plenty of people have kids even if they know they're not likely to live that long (eg soldiers, people with terminal diseases).

Of course the world is full of risk, but Buffy's life has such a heightened level of risk that I don't think children fit into that. I get that people such as soldiers with dangerous jobs have kids, but some soldiers never even have to go to war. Like Giles said, Buffy is on the front line of a war every night. Even with the extra hundreds of Slayers around, she's still the general leading the war, and she's Buffy, so she's never going to leave them to do all the work whilst she sits around making executive decisions. That's just not her. Plus, soldiers are in the line of fire, but their families aren't. Buffy's kids would have bulleyes between their eyes right from the word go.

And like I said, I believe her life is always going to be dangerous, at least more than the average person.

Also, if we're talking about things the way they are now, I don't really see her life slowing down long enough for her to decide to have a kid, get pregnant, and have the thing. If it were an accident, maybe. I couldn't help thinking if she were to have a kid, she'd end up like Nikki Wood.

I don't see it as something Joss would do either. If he does, it'll be right at the end. He already did the baby thing with Angel, and for me, babies just don't really work in shows (or comics continuing shows, I guess ) at all. They're annoying, and really useless. You really kind of have to get rid of them, which is why they had Connor grow up so damn fast. Pull a similar trick with Buffy's sprog, and what would we be left at the end of that? Probably another Dawn.

I've gone mad with the ramble-age. I'll stop now.

[Tigger96]

I absolutely think that Buffy would be a wonderful mother -- she had a fabulous role model. She showers her love on those around her and she would shower her children w/ love and care. However, her knowledge of what's really out there in the world would, I believe, cause her to be an overprotective parent, just as she displayed with Dawn.

I believe that Buffy WANTS to have children one day, once she can settle down. Whether or not that is a possibility is yet to be seen. There may be a day that she can hand the reins over to someone else and have a calmer life. Who knows? She's indicated more than once that she would like to have children, but she is also a very smart woman and knows that the time is not now. As long as she is actively fighting, I don't think she would be able to devote herself to her family (husband & kids) as much as she would need to.

As for *should* she be thinking about children....who's to say that a woman NEEDS to have children just because she CAN? I believe that all girls go through a time that they long for a husband and kids, but that can change for any number of reasons. I don't believe women should have children just because they can or that they should be expected to WANT children just because they are women. There are many reasons NOT to have children.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I believe that all girls go through a time that they long for a husband and kids.

Well...many perhaps, not all. Ok, perhaps pedantic to correct you there, but I think the correction actually strengthens your next point...

I don't believe women should have children just because they can or that they should be expected to WANT children just because they are women. There are many reasons NOT to have children.

Very true. And those reasons can vary from "it's too risky because all the demons and some of the humans in the world would probably love to eat my baby's head" to "I don't actively want them." You don't need a reason not to want kids, some people just don't want 'em. Can't tell if Buffy would definitely want them or not (especially since she has a quasi-daughter in Dawn, plus lots of wards..that's the word isn't it? Like Robin to Batman...and for once I'm mentioning those two without implying something naughty ) I think she probably would, because a lot of people do, but who knows? Buffy's not a lot of people after all.

Though, I'm still stuck on whether Buffy's muscles would crush the baby's skull though...

[tangent]

Though, I'm still stuck on whether Buffy's muscles would crush the baby's skull though...

Wouldn't the existence of Robin Wood indicate that baby Summers shouldn't have too many difficulties?

Perhaps that's why he's such a handy fighter. Really, Really thick skull.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Wouldn't the existence of Robin Wood indicate that baby Summers shouldn't have too many difficulties?

Perhaps that's why he's such a handy fighter. Really, Really thick skull.

Good point! Forgot that there'd been a slayerbaby already! Maybe that's why he's bald though.

[Bubblecat]

Actually, I think that's what should happen next.

"Giles......I'm pregnant"

Half joking there, but it has some dramatic effect.

I'm not sure that Buffy's decision to have or not have babies should have any bearing on her as a feminist icon. It's not something that I have actually seem much direct discussion about within feminism. I think, as said above, that it's all about choice.

Does she want them? Well, not really sure in the long term, can't see her being particuarly broody at the moment either.