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It was my time giles, another slayer would of taken my place '

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  • It was my time giles, another slayer would of taken my place '

    Ok so in season 6 cant remember the episode but its when giles comes back to stop willow... and holds her in that binding spell.. whilst willow is binded giles and buffy go into the back training room and start talking and within this conversation buffy says 'It was my time giles, another slayer would of taken my place'.

    Now i know that Buffy and co dont realise yet that another slayer wouldnt take buffy's place because of her death already activating a new slayer (season 1 kendra).

    But my question is what do you think would happen if willow hadnt brought back buffy.... so i dnt really follow the angel eps.. but faith was in prison at this time yes?... so with buffy dead faith in prison, and the buffy bot destroyed there would be no official slayer (apart from faith that couldnt do anything as she was in jail) so who would of helped protect sunnydale against vampires etc.

    I know there has been question about what happened after the opening of the dimensional portal in season 5 what happened to all the monsters which came out did the scooby gang take care of them or did they go back when the portal was closed?

    But its not just immediatley after buffy dies that needs to be took into consideration its a while after too.

    I mean for one tara would probaly have still been alive, as warren wouldnt of needed to shoot anybody, spike probaly wouldnt have got his soul. A lot of things would of been different if she hadnt been brought back...

    Anyway i know its not really important.. it just got me thinking when buffy said this in the episode...

    so any comments?

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    Last edited by TheSlayerInMe; 31-12-07, 11:56 PM. Reason: oops mistake hehe !

  • #2
    See, this is something that bothers me greatly because either:

    A) I didn't pay much attention to the mythology in the show (excluding what was stated outside of the show).
    B) It doesn't make much sense overall.

    When was it ever stated in the show that activation is a one-shot deal per Slayer? I know Joss said it during an interview or just to answer the question of "Was a slayer activated when Buffy died in 'The Gift?'" - which, again, annoys me since it wasn't even stated in the show but instead in an outside source.

    So can someone point out when, if ever, in the show this topic was actually discussed?

    To me, it seems like Buffy's second death was never planned - rather, a last minute event - and then the repercussions with the Slayer Line were never visited in Season 6, and only briefly touched on in Season 7.

    But, this might just be me. I might be going loopey.
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    • #3
      Joss saying it, as a question of the 'rules', is pretty much as good as if it happened in an episode. Buffy no longer could call another Slayer by getting killed. Faith is (still) the Slayer of record in terms of the Slayer line, although the line itself is moot.

      The episode was 6.22 "Grave"... and it's worth noting Buffy didn't say a Slayer would take her place, just "someone". I always took the line as simply a statement of the "heroes will always rise" variety.

      Why the characters didn't understand it, or why it didn't come up in the story, I have no idea. But Joss felt it important enough to mention.
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      • #4
        There are always big continuity problems and mythology issues with a long series like BtVS. But we do get to see in AtS and also in BtVS that people do come together to fight whatever evil is around at the time. The only difference is that the Slayer just has the potential to have an easier time of it when it comes to number of battles survived I think. I heartily agree with KoC.

        Could it be that the Scooby team bringing Buffy back was maybe an indication of their immaturity or an inability to recognise their own power as indivuals and as a team? The possibility that Buffy was trapped somewhere, sufferring terrible things would probably have been overwhelming; and a great reason to try and rescue someone who was a huge part of their lives. People do and think some really stupid things with the best of intentions... And at the crux of the matter they just wanted their Slayer back so badly.
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        • #5
          I don't think cared at all about having the Slayer back. They wanted their friend back. The fact that she was the Slayer was secondary. I suspect, they were far more concerned with using the Buffybot for Dawn's sake than for Sunnydale's.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
            Joss saying it, as a question of the 'rules', is pretty much as good as if it happened in an episode. Buffy no longer could call another Slayer by getting killed. Faith is (still) the Slayer of record in terms of the Slayer line, although the line itself is moot.

            The episode was 6.22 "Grave"... and it's worth noting Buffy didn't say a Slayer would take her place, just "someone". I always took the line as simply a statement of the "heroes will always rise" variety.

            Why the characters didn't understand it, or why it didn't come up in the story, I have no idea. But Joss felt it important enough to mention.
            See, now I'm not trying to bash the writing or anything, but the fact that Joss explained it in an interview is slightly bothersome since it's a very important possibility for the Scoobies to have mulled over in Season 6 - and just a line in passing doesn't cover it. It seems to me like it was just to cover the writer's butts that he even addressed the issue at all. Granted, I haven't read the actual interview and only know that he explained the situation in one.

            Again, I'm not trying to bash anyone but it does feel like something that deserved to be in the show but didn't get put in because it was forgotten by the writers and only explained by Joss in an interview. And, don't get me wrong: I'm glad it wasn't addressed in the show because it opens up creative opportunites to those people who take only what's in the show as canon (which I've taken advantage of it, as some may know).

            I guess I'm just trying to say that it was an important topic that should've been fleshed out and explained in the show because just an interview doesn't truly cut it because some people don't take exterior information as official canon - I don't; if I don't see it in the show/comics (or, in Firefly's case, movie) then I'm not gonna take it seriously. Which might be naive but, truthfully, how many people who watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer can actually recall that interview off hand? An interview, to me, doesn't seem to be worthy of official canon no matter who's talking. But that just might be me.
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            • #7
              Not everyone is going to even realize that an interview happened. For my part, my first assumption was that the line had split, and that the death of either Slayer would call a new one. (And if one of those Slayers was raised, there would then be three, and so on...) Had I not been interested in an audience for my fanfic, I wouldn't have come here, and I would have never found out about the interview. I agree with Heather--while it's true that what an author says is canon, important plot information should be in the material itself.
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              • #8
                I agree that as an audience we shouldn't have to be reliant on external sources such as interviews to get a better understanding of the show. Something like this needed to be explained and incorporated into the show someway and though it makes sense what Joss is saying the fact it wasn't shown in the series doesn't really make it 'canon.' As viewers most came to the same assumption anyway, which fits with Joss' explanation, that the line now runs through Faith which is why another slayer wasn't called after Buffy died in 'The Gift.' However, it would have been nice to have it actually explained in the show, especially when the writers had Buffy state such things as "my death could make you the next slayer" in 'Potential' and the First state "None of those girlies will ever know real power unless your dead' in 'Chosen.' Interestingly, Joss wrote 'Chosen' and that line which actually contradicts his own explanation in this interview, so I don't know how much thought he really gave to the mechanics of the slayer linage or the continuity of this subject in the series.

                I remember a while back on Buffy World a member suggested that Joss should have hired a die-hard fan of the series to look over each script before it is produced, because we as fans pick up on these things the writers don't seem to. As for example this issue and the Warren issue in season 8. A die hard fan could have picked up on this in season 7 and solved the confusion, as well as the Warren problem in season 8. It'd be very beneficial to the writers.

                It is unfortunate such big mistakes happen because it really does detract the viewer from the message and the impact of the words on script. Speaking on my behalf, I know I can't hardly even focus on the scene in which Buffy says this in 'Potential' because I get so irritated by the fact the writers would write such a thing. Whereas, if such a big mistake hadn't been included the scene could have actually been quite good.
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                  I agree that as an audience we shouldn't have to be reliant on external sources such as interviews to get a better understanding of the show. Something like this needed to be explained and incorporated into the show someway and though it makes sense what Joss is saying the fact it wasn't shown in the series doesn't really make it 'canon.' As viewers most came to the same assumption anyway, which fits with Joss' explanation, that the line now runs through Faith which is why another slayer wasn't called after Buffy died in 'The Gift.' However, it would have been nice to have it actually explained in the show, especially when the writers had Buffy state such things as "my death could make you the next slayer" in 'Potential' and the First state "None of those girlies will ever know real power unless your dead' in 'Chosen.' Interestingly, Joss wrote 'Chosen' and that line which actually contradicts his own explanation in this interview, so I don't know how much thought he really gave to the mechanics of the slayer linage or the continuity of this subject in the series.
                  See, I'm actually with Mabus when it comes to how I originally saw the Slayer Line post-"The Gift:" I thought Buffy's death had activated a third slayer that we just didn't see, nor hear about on the show, thus splitting the line so that both Faith and Buffy's deaths activate slayers. It doesn't make sense, to me, that the ability to activate a slayer upon death is only a one-time ordeal and that each slayer can only activate one slayer in their entire lifetime - and after their lifetime, in Buffy's case.

                  I'm trying to think of a fancy shmancy metaphor to go with what I'm trying to say but I keep some back to a gun...but I don't know what gun can only fire one bullet...ever.

                  Another thing that bothers me about this subject goes hand-in-hand with what you said about several lines in the show contradicting Joss' external explanation - and, ironically, one of those lines had come from Joss himself. If this were official canon, and since we can all agree that it's a very important topic, shouldn't this explanation have been consistent? I know most blame the lines on Season 7's poor writing in general but this doesn't have to do with just season 7 - deals with season 6 as well.
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                  • #10
                    If Buffy had never been resurrected, The Watchers Council would've definitely extracted Faith from prison or killed her to activate the next Slayer. I'd lean toward their release of her as she had already proven herself as a capable Slayer albeit an unstable one. This'd end up affecting Angel S4 as Faith may be unable to help them with Angelus.

                    The Hellions from Bargaining would've pretty much taken over the town with only the Scoobies left to oppose them. The Council wouldn't want to cede the Hellmouth to demons and would most probably send help in the form of Faith or other agents.

                    This would make things somewhat better in Sunnydale but substantially worse in the already dark L.A. Is this fanfic fodder or what?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Heather View Post
                      See, I'm actually with Mabus when it comes to how I originally saw the Slayer Line post-"The Gift:" I thought Buffy's death had activated a third slayer that we just didn't see, nor hear about on the show, thus splitting the line so that both Faith and Buffy's deaths activate slayers. It doesn't make sense, to me, that the ability to activate a slayer upon death is only a one-time ordeal and that each slayer can only activate one slayer in their entire lifetime - and after their lifetime, in Buffy's case.
                      I've always seen it as the slayer line passing on from Buffy to Kendra, whom then died and passed onto Faith. Buffy already technically died, thus causing the activation of another slayer and in many respects her role was done from then on. If there was a third slayer she would have popped up in season seven, there is no way the First wouldn't have attempted to kill her or at least brought it to Buffy's attention there was another slayer. And if she had been killed, eventually one of the potentials in Buffy's care would have likely been called.

                      Another thing that bothers me about this subject goes hand-in-hand with what you said about several lines in the show contradicting Joss' external explanation - and, ironically, one of those lines had come from Joss himself. If this were official canon, and since we can all agree that it's a very important topic, shouldn't this explanation have been consistent? I know most blame the lines on Season 7's poor writing in general but this doesn't have to do with just season 7 - deals with season 6 as well.
                      Well I pretty much chalk it up to poor sloppy writing in season seven. The whole season was full of inconsistencies, plot holes, OOC moments and this just seems like another flaw in what should have been a spectacular season. Though as you say, this initially started in season six but perhaps the writers have always been confused about the slayer lineage or really just didn't give it a lot of thought. I think this was a case of the writers wanting to get Buffy's emotions across in the scene with Giles and her feeling like she has no purpose, so they made her state such a thing about someone else taking her place without actually giving it a great deal of thought.

                      If you think about it, it doesn't make sense with what she is saying unless she isn't meaning a slayer and just another hero in general. I mean firstly, she'd been dead for 3 months so if someone was to have taken her place they would have done so before she was even resurrected. Secondly, almost the way she talks about is as if, if she had remained dead someone would have been activated as the new slayer but both she and Giles should have known better than anyone no matter how short or long your death is another slayer would be activated, Buffy was only dead a couple of minutes for Kendra to be called.

                      I'm just going to fanwank it like everyone else and pretend when she said such a thing she meant just a hero in general and not another slayer taking her place. Because really I'm going to try and give both Buffy and Giles, especially Giles, a little more credit than that.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                        I don't think cared at all about having the Slayer back. They wanted their friend back. The fact that she was the Slayer was secondary.
                        Ah, sorry but I didn't mean that in the literal sense. They wanted their Buffy back was more what I had intended to communicate there, just decided to insert title instead of name. Sort of how if they'd lost a dad you'd say they wanted their dad back. Buffy was their Slayer, someone they loved and cared about and they needed her in every aspect that Buffy was. You don't often recognise a persons full value to you until they're gone, how every aspect of them added up to make the person you can't see anymore.

                        And yes, Dawn. I caught myself thinking that having the Buffy-bot about was probably doing more harm than good with managing the fact that her sister was dead. Let alone being convincing enough for the Child Welfare people to consider leaving the guardianship the way it was. The look on Dawn's face when the Buffy-bot hugs her after the sister comment is very sad to watch.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Andrew View Post
                          If Buffy had never been resurrected, The Watchers Council would've definitely extracted Faith from prison or killed her to activate the next Slayer. I'd lean toward their release of her as she had already proven herself as a capable Slayer albeit an unstable one. This'd end up affecting Angel S4 as Faith may be unable to help them with Angelus.
                          Just reading this and then the thought occurs to me...wasn't Buffy dead for...147 days I think Spike said. That's well...just under five months if I'm right. The Watchers Council had no idea that Buffy was going to be brought back, and I'm sure if they were going to do something, they wouldn't have took that long. I mean, if they were going to release Faith from prison or heck, even killed her, they would have done that less than a month after Buffy died, as the world would be slayerless.

                          And as for the question, I never really got it before. I mean...sure, Buffy died, but she drowned. Then she was brought back naturally, as people often can do. Buffy was living again, so I would have thought that she could activate another slayer again, because she was alive and kicking, and not magically brought back. I would have thought the slayer line would have still ran through Buffy, as well as Kendra, and eventually Faith. But meh.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Ahm Shere View Post
                            Just reading this and then the thought occurs to me...wasn't Buffy dead for...147 days I think Spike said. That's well...just under five months if I'm right. The Watchers Council had no idea that Buffy was going to be brought back, and I'm sure if they were going to do something, they wouldn't have took that long. I mean, if they were going to release Faith from prison or heck, even killed her, they would have done that less than a month after Buffy died, as the world would be slayerless.

                            And as for the question, I never really got it before. I mean...sure, Buffy died, but she drowned. Then she was brought back naturally, as people often can do. Buffy was living again, so I would have thought that she could activate another slayer again, because she was alive and kicking, and not magically brought back. I would have thought the slayer line would have still ran through Buffy, as well as Kendra, and eventually Faith. But meh.
                            I could be wrong, but the way I understand it is a slayer as well as having her supernatural powers is surrounded by an essence. Upon the death of Buffy at the master hands this essence was transferred to Kendra and endowed her with slayer strength. Upon Buffy's return from the dead seeing as she had the essence previously she still had all of her slayers power, but because it was no longer with her the slayer line no longer runs through her. Instead it went through Kendra and eventually Faith,
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Vampmaster View Post
                              I could be wrong, but the way I understand it is a slayer as well as having her supernatural powers is surrounded by an essence. Upon the death of Buffy at the master hands this essence was transferred to Kendra and endowed her with slayer strength. Upon Buffy's return from the dead seeing as she had the essence previously she still had all of her slayers power, but because it was no longer with her the slayer line no longer runs through her. Instead it went through Kendra and eventually Faith,

                              That's also the way I saw it. Giles mentioned in What's My Line, that if the previous Slayer dies than the next one is called.

                              Giles: Not to my knowledge. Um, th-the new Slayer is only called after
                              the previous Slayer has died. Uh... (realizes) Oh, good Lord! You were
                              dead, Buffy


                              By this I always saw Buffy as the 'previous' Slayer, not the current one. (And thinking about this, I suddenly realize that the title gives another meaning, when considering it as: what my position in the line of Slayers?)

                              I guess you could interpret it differently and it never has been firmly stated. But I wouldn't want it any other way either. Cuz there's need for a certain amount of mystery. And we certainly shouldn't have known more than the Scoobies did!

                              This is also all what the Scoobies knew after Buffy died a second time. They don't know if anothe Slayer had been called, because they never saw somone show up. I also don't think that the Watcher's Council would have informed them if indeed another Slayer had been called. Why should they? It's not like the Council sees them as a part of the 'family'.
                              By this Buffy's remark in S7 still held true: her death still could turn another girl into a Slayer. But it does make Joss comments false. For that reason, and because I never read the interview, I can't call it canon.
                              Last edited by Koos; 04-01-08, 03:34 PM.

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                              • #16
                                Okay, first off, I'll begin with the original question: What would have happened if they didn't bring Buffy back? Well, the hellions certainly would have had an easier time taking over Sunnydale. However, I also believe that if the Scoobs had had to, they could have eventually held their own...Buffy's right, SOMEONE would have taken her place to fight the evil in the world. Who knows, Angel might have come up from LA and cleared the town up and then left it in the hands of the Scoobs...I think they would have been better at it than they gave themselves credit for.

                                As for WHY they brought Buffy back.... it's true that the thought that Buffy was stuck in a hell dimension for saving their lives would be torture and reason enough to get her out of there. However, as Willow states in Tabula Rasa, they didn't even really consider the possibility that Buffy was in a better place. They didn't WANT to...they wanted their friend back and that's the main reason for bringing her back. Completely selfish. (Not that I can't relate, but selfish nonetheless.)

                                When it comes to Buffy's comment, I have to view that comment as her stating that another hero would rise to the occasion, because, frankly, if she were talking about another Slayer I'd think she'd completely gone bonkers, because another Slayer should have risen immediately upon her death. And if a Slayer had risen, I'd think that by this time Giles would have heard about her, as he had been in England and had met with the council. (Now, let me mention that BEFORE I had heard about Joss' interview, I was pretty sure in my own mind that Buffy's death would not have called another Slayer, as *her* Slayer had already been called. It's just what made sense in my mind, and then Joss' interview kinda confirmed that for me.)

                                There is the chance, though, that this comment was inserted here to pave the way for S7. The writers knew by this time that the Potentials were on their way and that they were going to be basing everything around Buffy's death. Maybe this was the writer's way of taking all that we knew/thought (or had heard off screen) and throwing it out the window...but, again, if that were the case then where the heck is this third Slayer? And why was nothing ever explained on screen?

                                I get SO annoyed during S7 (even now, and I've watched the season a half-dozen times by now) EVERY SINGLE time they mention that Buffy's death will activate a new Slayer. And the fact that the First is saving her for last, as she is the MAIN Slayer. I don't know when, where, why, or how, but everyone seems to think that the Slayer line has been reconnected to Buffy. I guess the only real way to explain this is that maybe something happened when Willow performed her spell...

                                (Okay, light bulb...let me know what you think...) Hmmm...I'll have to go back and check the actual phrasing of the spell again, but maybe (and I'm just running with this, here) Willow's spell somehow brought not just Buffy's essance, but the Slayer's essance back into her body too? Or, at the very least, part of the Slayer's essance. Waddya think? Does that make sense? If that were the case, then all those stupid comments in S7 begin to make more sense. And I know that Giles and Anya were told that the reason this opportunity has arrived for the First is because Buffy lives AGAIN...hmmm, beginning to take shape and make sense in my mind. But again, if this were the case, then why was none of it ever addressed in the show? These writers are the best at continuity I've ever seen, but they really disappointed me here. And I know we HATE exposition, but doesn't this seem like something important enough to explain...in DETAIL? Just a tad, I think.
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                                • #17
                                  I have the answer to this, which was answered by Joss at SDCC (Comic-Con) a few years ago at one of his panels!

                                  Alright. The Slayer line went through Buffy, who died and then passed to Kendra. Upon Kendra's death the line ran through Faith who was the genuine slayer. Buffy was a mistake up until her death in Season 5. She was an anomaly that had never occurred before.

                                  Joss stated that when the gang brought her back, she was not simply resurrected, but she was "reborn" into this world. And to that effect, had the slayer lineage running through her again. So her statement in Season 7 hold true.
                                  This is why The First was able to manifest and plan an attack. The line had been fragmented into two. This had never happened before either. It was an unstable balance of good and evil. This was The First's opportunity or opening to settle the score that "good" had over it. Which is why Beljoxa's Eye tells Giles and Anya that the First was enacting it's plan because "The Slayer lives, again". Buffy had been re-inserted by Osiris' magic into the slayer fold, which cause the disruption in the balance.

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                                  • #18
                                    I think it's still kind of debatable. I know for a fact that Joss has stated in many interviews/panels that the line runs through Faith alone (although, he did mention if he came up with a really great story, to forget he said that.) There's also a line that was cut from the "Chosen" shooting script in which Buffy states she thinks both her and Faith would have to die to get a knew Slayer.

                                    I expect it will be addressed soon. We still don't know exactly how the spell affected the Slayer lineage.

                                    But, until explicitly I'm told otherwise, I subscribe to the theory that the line runs through Faith, as she is the true Slayer. Buffy is an anomaly, and as far as we know, so are all the others. It's the theory that makes the most basic sense, and the theory I've heard the most coming from Joss.

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