Riley

[vampmogs]

Hey

Well the thread title pretty much says it all. This is a thread basically to dicsuss Riley and anything to do with Riley. Why the fandom seem to dislike him so much, parts you loved or hated about his character and controversial things he may have done.

Basically I'm just going to continue the conversation we had going in another thread so we don't hijack it as Ehwylen pointed out.

If it is true, why would you hold onto a person? That's completely unfair to want a relationship with a person and then need another person to satisfy another need. A good person would let the other move on with their life rather than use emotional blackmail and blame the other for the downfall of the relationship. The "It's not you, it's me," line did come into existence for a reason.

IMO it takes two to tango. I'm not going to say it was all Buffy's fault but it wasn't all Riley's either. And as I stated in a previous post, it was obvious to everyone but Buffy she was treating Riley pretty poorly at times. She calls him 'dependable' I mean seriously, not exactly the stuff of great romance is it? I think it applies to both of them. Why didn't Buffy let Riley move on if he wasn't satisfying her enough or if her heart really wasn't in it?

That's everyone else sticking their nose into other people's business. A relationship between two people is so much more than what they allow the outside world to see.

They may be, but it doesn't make it any less truthful. I don't think it is a coincidence everyone saw the relationship the same way who wasn't Buffy. And everyone else's opinion basically tracks with Riley who was in the relationship so they seemed pretty spot on with their assessment of the couple and how they functioned. Just take a look at how surprised Joyce is when Buffy speaks of Riley as if their whole relationship is just some kind of chore.

Well, I was making a joke. But truly you said it wasn't a brothel and that it was a place for vampires to get their needed blood without killing people. From the fact that not killing people is good, I logically deduced that would essentially make donating to them charity work. ...Except it was actually a sleazy fetish place for Riley to feel the euphoria of vamp bites. Ick!

Well it is what Giles said it was. No Riley didn't go there looking to help these vamps out, he went there to feel something but that doesn't mean the place was a brothel necessarily. It just means it was a place that served people in different ways, like the vamps not being hunted. I don't think all vampire biting has sexual undertones, I didn't find it particularly sexual when Spike tore the throat out of the Chinese slayer or when Wes fed Angel his own blood to give him strength in Ats.

I never complained about Riley because he was a non superhuman boyfriend. I hated him because he never took a single interest in Buffy until his mentor/idol Walsh made a positive comment about her. Besides I thought Marc Blucas an uncharismatic actor.

Both Forest and Graham state that it was obvious to everyone he had feelings for her, Walsh was just another person, including his friends who made him realise it.

[Ehlwyen]

IMO it takes two to tango.

Exactly! And as soon as Riley decided that Buffy wasn't that one dance partner for him he should have stopped dancing with her. Not blame her dancing for the reason his dancing wasn't satisfying.

I'm not going to say it was all Buffy's fault but it wasn't all Riley's either. And as I stated in a previous post, it was obvious to everyone but Buffy she was treating Riley pretty poorly at times. She calls him 'dependable' I mean seriously, not exactly the stuff of great romance is it? I think it applies to both of them. Why didn't Buffy let Riley move on if he wasn't satisfying her enough or if her heart really wasn't in it?

But Buffy was currently satisfied with the relationship. She had the problem of her mom's health distracting her from devoting as much time to relationship as well.

They may be, but it doesn't make it any less truthful. I don't think it is a coincidence everyone saw the relationship the same way who wasn't Buffy. And everyone else's opinion basically tracks with Riley who was in the relationship so they seemed pretty spot on with their assessment of the couple and how they functioned. Just take a look at how surprised Joyce is when Buffy speaks of Riley as if their whole relationship is just some kind of chore.

As I said, the outside view isn't the same as the inside.

If Joyce is surprised then doesn't that mean she thought everything was fine in Buffy/Riley land?

Well it is what Giles said it was. No Riley didn't go there looking to help these vamps out, he went there to feel something but that doesn't mean the place was a brothel necessarily. It just means it was a place that served people in different ways, like the vamps not being hunted.

So then you have no analogy or metaphor for a real world comparison?

I don't think all vampire biting has sexual undertones, I didn't find it particularly sexual when Spike tore the throat out of the Chinese slayer or when Wes fed Angel his own blood to give him strength in Ats.

Spike was fighting to the death, that's always a different matter. Though she had to want to die, meaning there was some sense of release desired by the slayer.

And Wes/Angel, I won't even go there. But they had shared a strong familial relationship so there's that type of intimate bond at least involved.

And truly it's the intimate bond as much as or rather than the raw sexual nature of the act that is what I have been referring to.

You also conveniently overlook when Angel drank Buffy's blood in the end of S3. I could not possibly say that it was not sexual even thought it was violent, scary, yet done only to save his life.

But ultimately, Riley had to have perceived there to be the sexual or intimate nature in the vampire blood or he wouldn't have been so jealous in the first place.

Both Forest and Graham state that it was obvious to everyone he had feelings for her, Walsh was just another person, including his friends who made him realise it.

Considering that the show often gives an insider perspective to the viewer of what's important, it's hard to give authority to two frat buddies on perspective.

Riley was so disinterested and could barely remember her name. Watch him negatively comment on her to Walsh, and then Walsh shows respect of Buffy. Riley immediately begins pursuit of her. I cannot find that to be a coincidence.

[vampmogs]

Exactly! And as soon as Riley decided that Buffy wasn't that one dance partner for him he should have stopped dancing with her. Not blame her dancing for the reason his dancing wasn't satisfying.

I don't really blame Riley for being unwilling to let her go. As he tells Riley he felt that "she was the one." If you care about someone as much as that, it would be so very hard to let her go. He is human after all, he tried to make it work but was let down every time.

But Buffy was currently satisfied with the relationship. She had the problem of her mom's health distracting her from devoting as much time to relationship as well.

Yeah Buffy was satisfied with him showing up when she wanted him to and then leaving when she didn't, she liked him being 'dependable.' Not a very nice way to treat someone. I'm not saying she shouldn't have spent as much time with her mother as she did, nor do I believe that is what Riley wanted. All of that just made the issues more evident when she wouldn't let him in to be there for her.

As I said, the outside view isn't the same as the inside.

But in this case there is evidence enough to say it was. What everyone else saw was apparently exactly what Riley saw, which was an inside view. And something Xander said obviously sparked some truth in Buffy or she wouldn't have gone running off. Often people who are viewing it from the outside, who aren't mixed up in the emotions of it; have a clearer view. Take Spike for example. He didn't give a crap about Willow he wasn't involved in the Scoobies lives but he could see how she was barley hanging on after Oz left whereas her friends believed she was coping fine. But when he was emotionally invested in something, like with Buffy it led to his inability to see what he was doing in the AR scene. I believe it was the same kind of case with Xander and his perception of Riley and Buffy.

If Joyce is surprised then doesn't that mean she thought everything was fine in Buffy/Riley land?

Joyce doesn't spend as much time with Buffy/Riley together as their friends would though. When she got to spend more time with her daughter, when Buffy put her other life stuff on hold because her mother was sick, she saw what everyone else had been seeing.

And Wes/Angel, I won't even go there. But they had shared a strong familial relationship so there's that type of intimate bond at least involved. e, meaning

And truly it's the intimate bond as much as or rather than the raw sexual nature of the act that is what I have been referring to.

But doesn't Riley make it clear that it didn't mean anything, that he knows it wasn't real? Buffy even states he was nothing more to them than a idiotic willing snack?

You also conveniently overlook when Angel drank Buffy's blood in the end of S3. I could not possibly say that it was not sexual even thought it was violent, scary, yet done only to save his life.

Nor could I. But I don't believe because of that scene every vamp fight should be used in this way. I mean the chip was used differently over time. The idea of it being a metaphor for "performance anxiety" and other.. "troubles" pretty much was dropped after s4.

But ultimately, Riley had to have perceived there to be the sexual or intimate nature in the vampire blood or he wouldn't have been so jealous in the first place.

He states he wants to know when Drac and Angel had so much power over Buffy, he went to find out. But doesn't he then conceive that he knows on some level it meant nothing, that Buffy never let Drac bite her? That he wrong in being jealous in the first place?

Even if I conceded your approach for a moment, did you find it degrading to have Oz come back to Willow after she and Xander cheated the same way you found it degrading to have Buffy chasing after Riley?

Considering that the show often gives an insider perspective to the viewer of what's important, it's hard to give authority to two frat buddies on perspective.

Why? They'd know Riley better than any of us. We didn't know a lot about Riley before that episode aired. If we are willing to concede that he was part of this military organisation before having any prior knowledge that he was why not concede other things we were basically meant to take at face value, like that "everybody knows" he had feelings for Buffy.

Riley was so disinterested and could barely remember her name. Watch him negatively comment on her to Walsh, and then Walsh shows respect of Buffy. Riley immediately begins pursuit of her. I cannot find that to be a coincidence.

He doesn't negatively comment on her to Walsh. He says "but don't you find her a little peculiar?" Something is bothering him and it is that he likes her. And he doesn't even immediately start persuing her. That doesn't happen till after when Parker is talking badly about Buffy and Riley smacks him in the face, thus realising he cared for her.

[Anon]

On the one hand, Buffy didn't put as much effort into their relationship as she might have done. On the other hand, Riley did something completely stupid in deciding to go to vampire whores instead of trying to discuss the way he felt with Buffy. If he had told her how he felt and they had tried to work through the problems they were having, he might have been able to save the relationship.

[vampmogs]

On the one hand, Buffy didn't put as much effort into their relationship as she might have done. On the other hand, Riley did something completely stupid in deciding to go to vampire whores instead of trying to discuss the way he felt with Buffy. If he had told her how he felt and they had tried to work through the problems they were having, he might have been able to save the relationship.

Agreed. There are two sides to this and I don't think it would be fair to blame one character and not the other. In the end both wanted this relationship, Buffy ran after Riley and Riley made it clear how much he cared for her. It is unfortunate that that she hadn't reached him as really it could have lasted.

[buffyholic]

Okay, I agree that Buffy has her share of the blame but Riley is no saint either. The way he views relationships is old-fashioned. He wants to be the strong one, he wants to support the woman. Come on, and then he gets upset when in season 5 Buffy doesn?t wanna cry next to him. Of course, Buffy was never there for him, he was emotionally distant but Riley always got intimidated by her strenght and sense of leadership. For me, both parties are to blame.

[Bittersweettwit]

Okay, I agree that Buffy has her share of the blame but Riley is no saint either. The way he views relationships is old-fashioned. He wants to be the strong one, he wants to support the woman. Come on, and then he gets upset when in season 5 Buffy doesn?t wanna cry next to him. Of course, Buffy was never there for him, he was emotionally distant but Riley always got intimidated by her strenght and sense of leadership. For me, both parties are to blame.

While the character of Riley is far from my favourite (Buffy actually is) even I have to say that the issues in Buffy and Riley's relationship aren't one sided. Your right that Riley was in a sense a old fashioned fellow, but I don't think it was Buffy not crying to Riley or telling him her concerns in relationship to her mum that hurt. Rather I think it was the fact that she instead chose to confide in Spike of all people. Someone who Riley was aware of had feelings for Buffy himself.

This is clearly demonstrated when Spike is aware of the fact that Buffy mum is in the hospital whereas Riley doesn't. Spike relishes this fact and of course and shows it to Spike. I think that as well as Buffy and Spike themselves Spike had something of a role in their break up. When he saw Riley he saw the things that the others were seen and feed on Riley's fears making the situation out to be far worse than it was. An example of this is he takes advantages of Buffy past relationships with the undead and states 'She likes a bit of monster in her man.' something he knows Riley can never give Buffy.

This then leads Riley to visiting the vampire whore.

[KingofCretins]

Riley was a good and decent man, and I think that's probably at least half of most fans problem with him -- he doesn't bring enough pathos and misery to a relationship on his own.

Their issues were not one-sided, and, honestly, until he chose to vent his frustration with letting vampires feed on him, they *were* one-sided -- Buffy's side. Riley never held back giving Buffy what she needed emotionally. Remember how she was all insecure about his feelings in "The Replacement", wanted to know that he didn't wish she'd been hit by Toth's farula-gemina? Not only did he give the right answer, he knew the question before she got it out.

But, with the exception of her speech in "Out of My Mind", she couldn't give him what he needed. All the guy wanted to know was that he had a function in her life. That there was a thing she needed that he complemented and fulfilled. When it wasn't patrol partner anymore, he wasn't wrong to at least hope that he could step into a more typical boyfriend role of emotional support and confidant.

But she could be vulnerable and cry in front of everyone *but* him... for what purpose? for what reason? She never had a good one, and she realized she was just being guarded for the sake of being guarded when Xander talked to her.

Riley screwed up, and belonged in the doghouse, but I think it's incredible that more people are willing to excuse soulless Spike for the AR on the basis that Buffy drove him to it than are willing to concede that Riley was driven away by Buffy's unwillingness to turn to him and trust him (when he needed it most, after "Out of My Mind"). There really is a double standard for the billowy-coat-kings-of-pain/dark and brooding so give me love guys.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Riley was a good and decent man, and I think that's probably at least half of most fans problem with him -- he doesn't bring enough pathos and misery to a relationship on his own.

EDIT: That's random...I could've sworn there was a bit more to what I wrote...anyway, yeah, I think that Willow's "get out, get out while you still can" response to Buffy's lack of misery works as a joke, but actually, from a viewer's point of view, pain and drama tend to be more interesting to watch than someone being nice to someone.

But she could be vulnerable and cry in front of everyone *but* him... for what purpose? for what reason? She never had a good one, and she realized she was just being guarded for the sake of being guarded when Xander talked to her.

I'm not sure about that. I think she believed she fully loved and needed Riley while Xander was talking to her...but I think that's because Xander's good at pep talks. I'm not sure whether or not Buffy would have been happy with Riley, if he'd stayed. I'm not sure she was really ready for a relationship then, or if she was ready for one with that particular guy.

On a side note, I didn't like Riley at first, because of the all-american army boy vibe. But as I rewatched the seasons a few times, he grew on me and I realised there was more to him. Not only did he get a lot of funny lines, he was also someone who was willing to change and adapt, even when that was hard. He wasn't afraid of looking at himself, realising there was something wrong, and facing up to that.

Leaving the Initiative required a kind of deprogramming - not just physically, but learning to think for himself, and to decide what he was going to do with his life. I think in the end he made a choice in bad faith, choosing to go back to what he knew because he felt rejected (it felt like Graham basically mocked him into it, by saying he's just Buffy's boyfriend...just rather mean psychology imo). However, he adapted to his new-old life with the black ops guys in a way that made me respect him. He was no longer just following orders because they were orders. He knew he was helping people, and knew who he was. Though I'm not sure how I feel about his relationship with Sam, whether he loves her like he loved Buffy. But perhaps it's a mellower love, of a proper adult, not a boy?

His ability to recognise that Buffy isn't in love with him, and to separate his feelings from hers is touching. The speech he makes to Xander is one of my favourite "emotional revelation" moments. Damn, trying to find the quote...but have to go. The whole bit with "but she doesn't love me".

[KingofCretins]

Of the top of my head, he compares his situation to Xander's in "The Replacement". It was something along the lines of...

"Sometimes, when I'm with her, I feel like I'm split in two. Part of me on fire, out of control until I can touch her. Then the other part of me is perfectly still, just knowing -- this is the one.

"But she doesn't love me."

Marc Blucas *is* a good actor, ya'll. That scene is so moving. He's *smiling* when he says it

I think Riley loved both Buffy and Sam more maturely than we had (and arguably have) seen Buffy love up to this point. But, Riley was also *older* than her. Angel and Spike are tricky -- they always wrote them, in ordinary situations, to be about the same age as Buffy, with the centuries old thing mostly being on an as-needed basis. But Riley was probably 23 or 24 when he and Buffy met -- 19 and 20 year olds aren't grad students and TAs. In terms of normal human emotion and interpersonal relationships, he'd been around the block more than Buffy.

[Weredog]

I'm just curious: does anybody have quotes about the Buffy/Riley relationship from the cast and crew? I know there are numerous interviews where Joss or Sarah, for example, are asked what their thoughts are on Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike, but I've never read anything about their thoughts on Buffy/Riley.

[vampmogs]

Okay, I agree that Buffy has her share of the blame but Riley is no saint either. The way he views relationships is old-fashioned. He wants to be the strong one, he wants to support the woman. Come on, and then he gets upset when in season 5 Buffy doesn?t wanna cry next to him. Of course, Buffy was never there for him, he was emotionally distant but Riley always got intimidated by her strenght and sense of leadership. For me, both parties are to blame.

Riley tells Buffy in 'A New Man' that he likes her being strong, he is proud of the fact she takes charge. So it isn't as if he has a problem with it but he does find it hard, and in today's society I actually think that is pretty realistic. Men still feel like they need to protect women sometimes, even men who enjoy strong powerful women, they still have that feeling deep down because society is still wired that way. And for a guy growing up in Iowa I think it is exactly the kind of thinking he would have grown up around, even if he knew girls who could hold their own. It isn't as if Riley was some chauvinist or anything like that, he loved that Buffy was as strong and confident as she was he is very sincere when he says "I like it."

Notedly, the issue even comes up with Spike at some point. Nothing big but important to consider. In 'Something Blue' when Spike and Buffy are under the spell and therefore in love with each other Spike gets irritated by Buffy's "girl power bit" when she takes offence to his instinctive need to worry about not being able to protect her from the demons (remember this is at a time when he believed the chip would hurt him wether it be human or demon that he hit.) Spike is a guy who enjoys Buffy's inner and outer strength as well but at the same time he has that distinctive need to watch over her and has trouble dealing with the idea that he can't protect her.

So yeah it was "hard, sometimes" for Riley but he makes a point in saying "that's not it." He embraced that side of Buffy, and it wasn't so much to do with the fact she was strong and determined but that he no longer was. Remember that he was a leader too once, and a lot stronger. He enjoyed that lifestyle, it was pretty big he gave all that up just for Buffy. And then to suddenly feel like you're just dependable, that she doesn't really care about you or want you around unless it suits her- well I can't blame the guy for getting a little down. He gave up his entire career to be with this girl and now he didn't even feel like she was invested in the relationship.

It's a guy thing I'm afraid

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Of the top of my head, he compares his situation to Xander's in "The Replacement". It was something along the lines of...

"Sometimes, when I'm with her, I feel like I'm split in two. Part of me on fire, out of control until I can touch her. Then the other part of me is perfectly still, just knowing -- this is the one.

"But she doesn't love me."

Marc Blucas *is* a good actor, ya'll. That scene is so moving. He's *smiling* when he says it

Here's the jobbie - I thought it was in "out of my mind" all this time, hence the non-findage. Oops. So, from the Replacement as you said (taken from the Buffyverse dialogue database):


RILEY: (grinning) Hey, I'm well aware of how lucky I am. Like, lottery lucky. Buffy's like nobody else in the world. When I'm with her it's like ... it's like *I'm* split in two. Half of me is just ... on fire, going crazy if I'm not touching her. The other half ... is so still and peaceful ... just perfectly content. Just knows: this is the one.

(he smiles a little, continues packing for a moment, then looks up at Xander again.)

RILEY: But she doesn't love me.


Aww, poor chap.

I think Riley loved both Buffy and Sam more maturely than we had (and arguably have) seen Buffy love up to this point. But, Riley was also *older* than her. Angel and Spike are tricky -- they always wrote them, in ordinary situations, to be about the same age as Buffy, with the centuries old thing mostly being on an as-needed basis. But Riley was probably 23 or 24 when he and Buffy met -- 19 and 20 year olds aren't grad students and TAs. In terms of normal human emotion and interpersonal relationships, he'd been around the block more than Buffy.

I also think he probably never had a dramatic teen love thing - he strike sme as one of those people who's never really been a hormonal teenager, like he was born all sensible and stuff. Mind you, it's the sensible ones you have to watch out for...when they crack...

Evil Riley in Restless was scary as fck. "Baby we're the government. It's what we do". More evil Riley fic needed!

[buffyholic]

vampmogs, I totally believe in my heart that he?s lying, he says he likes her strenght but he?s lying, he feels uncomfortable and once again, that stems from the fact that he?s old-fashioned when it comes to a relationship. Buffy has a very strong sense of leadership and he can?t handle that fact, because that indicates that Buffy doesn?t need him as often as he would like. And that?s why Riley takes off, because he feels he isn?t needeed.

[vampmogs]

vampmogs, I totally believe in my heart that he?s lying, he says he likes her strenght but he?s lying, he feels uncomfortable and once again, that stems from the fact that he?s old-fashioned when it comes to a relationship. Buffy has a very strong sense of leadership and he can?t handle that fact, because that indicates that Buffy doesn?t need him as often as he would like. And that?s why Riley takes off, because he feels he isn?t needeed.

If Riley truly had a problem with it though, why not leave in 'A New Man' when he had the chance? IMO there is nothing but sincerity in his voice and face when he tells Buffy "he likes it." And then in 'The Replacement' he tells Buffy he loves Buffy as 'the whole package' and 'there is no part of her he isn't in love with.' I mean check out his new wife, Sam is strong and confident and takes crap from nobody. When Buffy asks Sam if Riley is his boss she replies "He wishes" and Riley grins. If he truly had a problem with strong dominant women he wouldn't have married one.

Riley didn't take off because Buffy was stronger than him, though it was one of Buffy's main concerns. Buffy admits she was never there for Riley like she was for Angel, she felt she was hardening but we learn her heart is full of love by the first slayer. Riley left because Buffy constantly kept him at an arms length, and wanted him to be dependable.

If Riley truly had a problem with Buffy because she was strong and a good leader he wouldn't have started a relationship with the same kind of woman again, or married her. It is something that obviously appeals to him if he has gone for the same women twice. And notice how he is very happy with Sam, a powerful confident woman, because she was ready for a relationship. Buffy just wasn't.

[kana]

I didn't like Riley at first but that was mainly because he wasn't Angel. Riley started off as Average Joe with a smidch of superhero. He actually seemed perfect in a lot of ways and certainly from his perspective things were great. He could hold his own against the forces of darkness and he doesn't have the emotional or mystical constraints Angel has.

I think Riley's world crumbled as he fell deeper in love with Buffy. He found out about the morally ambiguous methods of the Initiative, faced Angel and Oz in a few short months he has to change is entire world view on demons and vampires. He lost his super powers and had to contend with the idea that he couldn't invoke the same emotional reaction from Buffy has Angel or even Dracula.

I agree that Riley likes Buffy's strength but Riley insecurity is whether he wasn't strong enough for her. It was a childish reaction but he felt he was losing her and let us not forget that Buffy has her life as a Slayer but Riley lost his Intiative lifestyle.

Also Buffy didn't let him be a part of her slaying life, which is a huge part of her life. But before we think that Buffy thinking of Riley when she's doing this, she's happy enough for him to go alone but just doesn't really want her near her when she's doing to slaying.

Buffy cannot handle emotional trauma that's facing her at all sides. Riley had the right idea when he said, he wanted to take care of her, but he didn't articulate it correctly. Buffy was in the land of not dealing and she's done this before. Opening up can be scary but it's part being emotionally stable and balanced and having well formed relationships. Buffy's actions were not exclusive to Riley but in a romantic relationship sometimes it takes up more significance. Xander, Joyce and even Spike all understood this.

However Riley's response to this is what hurt Buffy. I think in the other thread they mentioned sexual connotations with the biting dens. I agree with this. Riley's betrayal wasn't let off on a technicality because the point was that Buffy felt hurt by the emotional responses (albeit on the most basic level) and thrills he was getting elsewhere. Metaphors were mentioned in the other thread I think but that's not really the point for me. Riley was getting something elsewhere that he wasn't getting from Buffy and he was getting it from female sentient beings who closley resemble humans. We almost don't need the metaphor because the betrayal stares us in the face.

I think, buffholic that Riley didn't feel emotionally needed, not in the way that one might need a boyfriend. Buffy finally realises she does but then it's too late.

As for Riley's return. Many think he got over Buffy way too soon. I'm a little half way. I think Riley started his grieving period when he was with Buffy and that happens sometimes. It's like we shut down, slowly but surely. When he was ready to get married, he didn't wait around, but it doesn't mean he wasn't ready emotionally. It's different for different people.

[spacecase827]

i was glad that riley was over buffy when he returned. i almost liked him as a character, and i think it was good that he'd moved on.

[KingofCretins]

Buffy cannot handle emotional trauma that's facing her at all sides. Riley had the right idea when he said, he wanted to take care of her, but he didn't articulate it correctly. Buffy was in the land of not dealing and she's done this before. Opening up can be scary but it's part being emotionally stable and balanced and having well formed relationships. Buffy's actions were not exclusive to Riley but in a romantic relationship sometimes it takes up more significance. Xander, Joyce and even Spike all understood this.

Dawn and Xander were basically disaffected with Buffy's closing off and keeping secrets when they found out Buffy knew about Spike. It didn't even get them to raise their voices.

However Riley's response to this is what hurt Buffy. I think in the other thread they mentioned sexual connotations with the biting dens. I agree with this. Riley's betrayal wasn't let off on a technicality because the point was that Buffy felt hurt by the emotional responses (albeit on the most basic level) and thrills he was getting elsewhere. Metaphors were mentioned in the other thread I think but that's not really the point for me. Riley was getting something elsewhere that he wasn't getting from Buffy and he was getting it from female sentient beings who closley resemble humans. We almost don't need the metaphor because the betrayal stares us in the face.

Y'know, I think something we've never discussed is that Riley is really the first and arguably only relationship, friend or romance, that Buffy lost to her idiosyncracies. In the past, her secretive ways and emotional isolation had never been *punished* by losing a friendship or a relationship. Well, perhaps Scott Hope, but he was never serious about her anyway.

Ignoring how Riley behaved when the problem formed, I think that's what hurt Buffy most -- she couldn't "fix this" (as she insisted she could do in "The Yoko Factor").

As for Riley's return. Many think he got over Buffy way too soon. I'm a little half way. I think Riley started his grieving period when he was with Buffy and that happens sometimes. It's like we shut down, slowly but surely. When he was ready to get married, he didn't wait around, but it doesn't mean he wasn't ready emotionally. It's different for different people.

Buffy is an extraordinarily charismatic girl, beautiful, witty, smarter than she gets credit for -- I'd say that every man who's been in love with her always sort of will be (Angel, Xander, Spike, Riley). She and Riley certainly had sparks in "As You Were", nothing Riley would have acted on, but there was
no denying it.

[buffyholic]

kana, I agree with you. That?s why he refuses the operation at first in "Out in My Mind". He is afraid that he won?t be needed without his strenght. Buffy for me, is emotionally distant since Angel. She hasn?t been able to fully open her heart since Angel. He feels she has a connection with Dracula and Angel that he can?t grasp, he can?t understand.
vampmogs, watch "New Man" again. Just see Riley?s face when Buffy throws up against the wall. He?s very uncomfortable, he thinks that Buffy won?t be needing him if he?s "inferior in strenght" than her.

[Anon]

Y'know, I think something we've never discussed is that Riley is really the first and arguably only relationship, friend or romance, that Buffy lost to her idiosyncracies. In the past, her secretive ways and emotional isolation had never been *punished* by losing a friendship or a relationship. Well, perhaps Scott Hope, but he was never serious about her anyway.

Ignoring how Riley behaved when the problem formed, I think that's what hurt Buffy most -- she couldn't "fix this" (as she insisted she could do in "The Yoko Factor").

To be honest, Riley wasn't much better in terms of opening up to Buffy. Instead of trying to talk to Buffy and deal with the problems that developed between them, he chose to shut himself off and try to ignore them, right up to the point where it blew up in their faces.