Buffy vs Faith where's the challenge?

[Bittersweettwit]

Hey everyone

In honour of getting Buffy Season 3 for Christmas and finally completing my Buffy DVD collection, I thought that it was time for me to start a new topic here on Buffy forums. I figured that I would start the topic on something that I have been thinking about for a while and I thought that it would be prefect as season 3 introduces Faith a key character of this discussion.

So after watching Faith, Hope and Trick and Season 7 lately, I started thinking about the level of skill portrayed in the show for Buffy and Faith. In season three we are introduced to Faith a new vampire slayer and one who seems to be far more similar to Buffy than Kendra, but at the same time very, very different to her. As the Season progress we get to see several fights between the two slayers. From these fights we learn that Buffy and Faith are roughly even in the level of skill that they hold.

In fact it isn't until Graduation Day Part 1 that Buffy manages to defeat Faith and frankly I am sure that there are some fans that would be willing to argue in Faith's favour. Some who would say that the only reason Buffy won was due to an adrenaline rush that came from the fact that she had a stronger motivation for the fight than Faith and so she wanted to win it more. Hell when Faith is stabbed instead of reacting in anger or showing extreme sadness for what she would have considered her near death. She instead almost seems to be proud of Buffy and we see this from her statement.

Faith: (weakly, but smiling) You did it.
Faith throws Buffy away from her.
Faith: You killed me.

So Season 3 finishes with Buffy and Faith having roughly an equal amount of skill with Buffy arguably holding a slight edge over Buffy. We then enter into Season 4 this is a quiet year for Buffy one where she begins to experience college life for the first time and is involved in every little actual training in her slayer skills with Giles. In the Season 4 episode This Years Girl Faith awakens from the coma that came as a result of the confrontation between her and Buffy GD Part 1. We see once again that Buffy seems to have improved somewhat and has the upper hand in several of her fights against Faith right up until the end of the episode where Faith startles Buffy by performing the body swap. Though the battle is temporarily won Buffy once again comes back proving her superiority over Faith in the following episode Who are you?

This sequence finishes with Faith going to jail for the next three years where the strongest of opponents that she will have to face is other human prisoners. These opponents we know a slayer could beat easily regardless of their skill. Buffy on the other hand finishes the season by fighting Adam a powerful villain though admittedly there is still very little being done with regards to her training. The following year Season 5 however is very different. Buffy gets back into regular training with Giles, she comes far throughout the season learning about the roots of her power and how to control it. We know that Buffy comes a long way though this season and this fact is commented on by Giles in Checkpoint when talking to Travers.

GILES: You can trust her. (straightens up) Buffy's come very far recently. She's acquired a remarkable focus.

This season also forces Buffy to face one of her greatest opponents to date Glory a literal god. We see Buffy fighting skills against her go through a remarkable change from Buffy barely being able to hit Glory once the proper fight begun in No Place Like Home to her holding her own if not beating Glory by The Gift. The next season while there is no big bad per say to face she still goes through a trial having to pick herself from her worst place and get back to where she once was. Her Slayer abilities continue to grow despite her lack of care about them at this point. So we finish Season 6 with Buffy continuing to develop her powers while Faith is still in prison.

The first half of season 7 is once again a challenge of Buffy power's she is forced to come face to face with several different opponents who to defeat she needed to grow in her ability as a slayer. A key opponent is the Tuork Han. So at the end of Season 7 Faith comes out of prison and meets Buffy again for the first time in three years. She also becomes involved in the fight again for the first time in three years. Yet despite all of these achievements and improvements on Buffy's part it still seems to be commonly accepted amongst everyone including Buffy herself that her and Faith are still equal in terms of physical strength and skill. But how could this be? Has Faith had to contend with foes such as Adam, Glory the Tuork Hans and Dark Willow? No Buffy has.

Now lets take a look at Season 8. Unfortunately there are no comic book stores near where I live to purchase them and I am unable to purchase them online for the time being at least so my knowledge is limited. So feel free to correct me if I am wrong in anything I say, but aren't we told that of the new Slayers called in chosen Buffy can easily defeat four of them? But why should Faith be at that level too? Sure she has been the Slayer far longer than the other girls, but really does she have that much more experience? I mean yeah she has faced vampires and some demon before, but she has certainly never met opposition at the level that Buffy has.

So the question I leave to you is was this presumption of Buffy and Faith equality simply a mistake of the writers that was reflected by those involved or could we say that a Slayer abilities continue to grow the longer they have them regardless of how often they are put into practise or what foes the Slayer faces? This is hopefully partially what we can discuss. Thank you for reading this and I am sorry, if my post basically seemed like a run through of the series I just wanted to make sure what I was talking about got through.

So lets get discussing

[modifiedblind]

Just to add, Faith has trouble besting Angelus during her stint on Angel, she has to use the drug Orpheus to get him down also she gets her butt kicked by The Beast (although honestly who wouldnt get beat up by him?), whereas in Season 2 of Buffy, Buffy continously beats Angelus. The first time in the mall, then when Giles attacks Angelus after Jennys murder she has to stop to save Giles from burning and then in Becoming she also defeats him. So Id say Buffy time and time again proves she is at a higher skill set then Faith. In Season 7, the assumption that Buffy and Faith are equals stems from IMO the fact that they have both been called as Slayers. In Season 8 it seems that Buffys track record has been taken into account and the new slayers look up to her and see she is one of the great Slayers. IMO.

[Bittersweettwit]

Just to add, Faith has trouble besting Angelus during her stint on Angel, she has to use the drug Orpheus to get him down also she gets her butt kicked by The Beast (although honestly who wouldnt get beat up by him?), whereas in Season 2 of Buffy, Buffy continously beats Angelus. The first time in the mall, then when Giles attacks Angelus after Jennys murder she has to stop to save Giles from burning and then in Becoming she also defeats him. So Id say Buffy time and time again proves she is at a higher skill set then Faith. In Season 7, the assumption that Buffy and Faith are equals stems from IMO the fact that they have both been called as Slayers. In Season 8 it seems that Buffys track record has been taken into account and the new slayers look up to her and see she is one of the great Slayers. IMO.

I agree completely with what you said and not only that but even when she was fighting against Angelus Buffy was not fighting at her best. In her fight against Angelus in the mall as you pointed out Buffy kicked Angelus ass in the mall and easily could have staked him, but she herself acknowledged that she wasn't ready. She still associated Angelus with Angel the man she loved. As you said in Passions she once again comes up against Angelus and is beating him and it is a matter of circumstances that prevent her from continuing the fight. We also know that by this Buffy was finally ready to come up against Angelus and give it everything she had. Buffy herself acknowledges this at the end of Passions when she talks to Giles at the graveyard.

Buffy: (looks up at him) I'm sorry. I'm sorry I couldn't kill him for
you... (looks down at the grave) for her... when I had the chance.

Cut to a shot of the gravestone. It reads just 'Jennifer Calendar'.

Buffy: I wasn't ready.

Cut to Jenny's classroom. The students all wait at their desks for the
teacher to arrive. Willow walks in and stands at the front of the room.

Buffy: (voiceover) But I think I finally am.

The next fight that Buffy has against Angelus in Killed By Death is the first time that we see Buffy really get her ass kicked by Angel and this was due to the fact that she was sick. Then in Becoming of course we finally see Buffy defeat Angelus once and for all. I haven't seen Season 4 recently of Angel to go into further details of her fight against Angelus but I think that you have accurately said everything at any rate.

[KingofCretins]

Buffy and Faith were at a stand-still every time they fought -- it was always a coin-toss. Coin-toss in "Graduation, Part I", and both Buffy and Faith lost the fights in "This Year's Girl" and "Who Are You?" on purpose.

The only other fight they've had is "No Future For You",

Spoiler:

and Faith cleaned Buffy's clock.

I can't figure how someone would come up with the idea that they *weren't* an even match. If they fought all-out 10 times, they'd each win 5.

Just to add, Faith has trouble besting Angelus during her stint on Angel, she has to use the drug Orpheus to get him down also she gets her butt kicked by The Beast (although honestly who wouldnt get beat up by him?), whereas in Season 2 of Buffy, Buffy continously beats Angelus. The first time in the mall, then when Giles attacks Angelus after Jennys murder she has to stop to save Giles from burning and then in Becoming she also defeats him. So Id say Buffy time and time again proves she is at a higher skill set then Faith. In Season 7, the assumption that Buffy and Faith are equals stems from IMO the fact that they have both been called as Slayers. In Season 8 it seems that Buffys track record has been taken into account and the new slayers look up to her and see she is one of the great Slayers. IMO.

Faith didn't use the orpheus to bring down Angel, it was the back-up plan. In the actual, stand-up fight, Faith won. He only bit her because she stopped paying attention after he was down.

Also, there's no reason to think that the Beast wouldn't have beaten Buffy just as badly. Especially for a first fight, where Buffy has a lot of difficulty.

[holypotatoes]

Buffy and Faith were at a stand-still every time they fought -- it was always a coin-toss. Coin-toss in "Graduation, Part I", and both Buffy and Faith lost the fights in "This Year's Girl" and "Who Are You?" on purpose.

The only other fight they've had is "No Future For You"

KoC you're forgetting Enemies! I definitely think it was a writers blooper. Just for the simple fact that even Buffy in the beginning wasn't that great at fighting and it took a little while to get her to be great at what she did. Faith on the other hand was brand new at it and all of a sudden comes to town and is a good fighter. Please! There's no way that that would be the case. Like Vampmaster said, Buffy fought a lot more enemies than Faith ever did. I mean her one big bad was basically Kakistos and she barely beat him. The only reason she did was because of Buffy.

Posted by KoC:
I can't figure how someone would come up with the idea that they *weren't* an even match. If they fought all-out 10 times, they'd each win 5.

That's not always the case. It's not a 50/50 matchup everytime. If Buffy had absolutely no one to look after (ie, scoobies & Joyce) Faith would've gotten gang beat a billion times. Well I guess not really gang beat but you know what I mean.

So really to put it simply "NO WAY IN HELL ARE THEY ON THE SAME LEVEL!!!!"

[KingofCretins]

KoC you're forgetting Enemies! I definitely think it was a writers blooper. Just for the simple fact that even Buffy in the beginning wasn't that great at fighting and it took a little while to get her to be great at what she did. Faith on the other hand was brand new at it and all of a sudden comes to town and is a good fighter. Please! There's no way that that would be the case. Like Vampmaster said, Buffy fought a lot more enemies than Faith ever did. I mean her one big bad was basically Kakistos and she barely beat him. The only reason she did was because of Buffy.

Their fight in "Enemies" ended with knives at each other's throats -- draw.

Faith needed Buffy's help to kill Kakistos, but Buffy also would have died on the docks, killed or turned by Trick, if Faith hadn't saved her in "Consequences".

Their history of single combat is pretty clearly even. The last time out, Faith won as decisively as Buffy did in "Graduation, Part I", so I'd say they are even.

[vampmogs]

Faith needed Buffy's help to kill Kakistos, but Buffy also would have died on the docks, killed or turned by Trick, if Faith hadn't saved her in "Consequences".

You have to remember though that Faith only had to save Buffy because she was weakened after having to save Faith from the falling crates.

I actually think it makes sense for Buffy to be a better slayer both in the strength and skill department. I mean she was the slayer for three years before Faith was even called and it has been stated in the show that Buffy grows stronger everyday. So doesn't this therefore put her in an advantage over Faith seeing that she got a pretty decent head start? And Buffy was always described as "the good one" whilst Faith "wasn't interested in her training" as Giles makes note of in s3. If Faith didn't train as often and hadn't been the slayer as long- doesn't it therefore make sense Buffy would be a little better?

We also have to remember that at times Faith can pretty much loose it in a fight. Buffy had a bit of Kendra and Faith in her fighting. She could let her emotions give her strength like Faith but she also had the ability to hold them back like Kendra. Faith would result to throwing furniture a lot of the time when she got frustrated in a fight, she lost her cool which usually ended up being her downfall.

[holypotatoes]

Originally Posted by KoC:
Their fight in "Enemies" ended with knives at each other's throats -- draw.

Faith needed Buffy's help to kill Kakistos, but Buffy also would have died on the docks, killed or turned by Trick, if Faith hadn't saved her in "Consequences".

That's why I said if Buffy didn't have to have the scoobies around because they were fighting a good fight until the scoobies burst into the mansion and then they both grabbed the knives. I still think Buffy could've kicked her ass because she was so pissed at her.

But would Buffy have ever had to go to the docks if it wasn't for Faith not being able to restrain herself like vampmogs said. I mean Faith's the one who stabbed that guy because she just randomly reacts and doesn't think about her actions. So if Faith was as good at being a slayer like Buffy the guy would've never been killed and they wouldn't have been at the docks! Nuf said.

[modifiedblind]

in my post i did say 'although who wouldnt get beat up by the beast' everyone got their ass kicked by him, i meant to imply buffy was no exception. it seem whenever buffy and faith fight they are matched but, to me its the writers wanting to show a good fight, buffys fighting skills in season 5 alone prove shes far strong she even says after she gets staked herself that she is stronger than ever. in angel, buffy obviously has shown she wouldnt need a backup plan, and had she not used orpheus wouldnt angelus have won that fight when he bit her?

[buffyholic]

I actually think Buffy and Faith are at the same level. All the fights they had was really tied. I just think Buffy is a little better than Faith because Buffy can control her emotions better and her rage and emotions are her greatest weapons. But her emotions come from the fact that her loved ones are in danger or in pain. Faith has a lot of pent-up issues and a lot of rage. That can give her power but still she has no control over her emotions. Her fights were always tied, either one of them could have won. The difference is that Faith has no control and she thought she had the right to say what was right. Faith told Buffy that: In Enemies, Faith told Buffy that she (Buffy) didn?t have the strenght to kill her (Faith) or even the will, because if she(Buffy) did that, Buffy would become Faith, a killer and Buffy just wasn?t ready for that.
In season seven, we see a changed Faith, with more control of her emotions and with a better perception of things.

[Bittersweettwit]

Buffy and Faith were at a stand-still every time they fought -- it was always a coin-toss. Coin-toss in "Graduation, Part I", and both Buffy and Faith lost the fights in "This Year's Girl" and "Who Are You?" on purpose.

The only other fight they've had is "No Future For You",

Spoiler:

and Faith cleaned Buffy's clock.

I can't figure how someone would come up with the idea that they *weren't* an even match. If they fought all-out 10 times, they'd each win 5.

You see the problem for me is that with the exception of their fight in No Future For You (which I'll have to re read the Transcript for after this post) the fights that you are discussing all take place over the Season 3/4 period. A period where it is commonly accepted amongst fans that Buffy and Faith were equal in their abilities. It is later in the series where their strength is supposedly equal that I have the problem with.

KoC you're forgetting Enemies! I definitely think it was a writers blooper. Just for the simple fact that even Buffy in the beginning wasn't that great at fighting and it took a little while to get her to be great at what she did. Faith on the other hand was brand new at it and all of a sudden comes to town and is a good fighter. Please! There's no way that that would be the case. Like Vampmaster said, Buffy fought a lot more enemies than Faith ever did. I mean her one big bad was basically Kakistos and she barely beat him. The only reason she did was because of Buffy.

Hi Holy Potatoes and thanks for helping me argue this. You mention the difference or lack of in their abilities in Season 3. This I don't hold an issue with, if anything I think it makes sense for Faith to begin with at least develop her abilities as a slayer quicker than Buffy. From what we know of Faith she had a pretty rough childhood and it is likely that even before her calling as a slayer she developed some fighting skills. Who knows she could have been raised in an environment where if you can't handle yourself, your in big trouble. So Faith at least to begin with developing her powers may have had a dead start to the mostly protected prom Queen Buffy. It later when Faiths abilities really lack development due to a combination of her coma and being in prison whereas Buffy does that gives me concern.

That's why I said if Buffy didn't have to have the scoobies around because they were fighting a good fight until the scoobies burst into the mansion and then they both grabbed the knives. I still think Buffy could've kicked her ass because she was so pissed at her.

But would Buffy have ever had to go to the docks if it wasn't for Faith not being able to restrain herself like vampmogs said. I mean Faith's the one who stabbed that guy because she just randomly reacts and doesn't think about her actions. So if Faith was as good at being a slayer like Buffy the guy would've never been killed and they wouldn't have been at the docks! Nuf said.

I have to agree with what both you and Vampmogs said. Faith has a lack of control over her emotions and this shows in her brash reaction to events. Faith almost strikes me as similar to bizarro Buffy that we met in The Wish. Faith lack of control over her emotions often leads her to make brash decisions and an example of this is in 'revelations' where she goes to face Angel. A vampire she knows even Buffy has had problems with facing in the past and so I think one could conclude that she could have gotten herself killed. So I certainly agree when it comes to the decision aspect of being the Slayer Buffy has Faith beat hands down at this stage.

in my post i did say 'although who wouldnt get beat up by the beast' everyone got their ass kicked by him, i meant to imply buffy was no exception. it seem whenever buffy and faith fight they are matched but, to me its the writers wanting to show a good fight, buffys fighting skills in season 5 alone prove shes far strong she even says after she gets staked herself that she is stronger than ever. in angel, buffy obviously has shown she wouldnt need a backup plan, and had she not used orpheus wouldnt angelus have won that fight when he bit her?

Thank you modifiedblind for pointing that out. However I do have one thing that I thought of in relation to your argument. I haven't seen or read the transcripts for Season four of Angel in a long time so I could be wrong. But wasn't Faith helping Angel without the intent of killing him simply restraining him till his rensoulment? This means that Faith quite possibly could have been holding herself back while Buffy was giving it her all. However I do think that Angel biting Faith is another prefect demonstration of her less than prefect slayer status. She underestimates Angel when she feels that she is winning the fight. Something I think Buffy would have known better to do until the vampire was either staked or tied up.

[Anon]

The only thing that really confuses me is that when Faith comes to Sunnydale, somehow she seems to fight as well as Buffy does.

Actually, I think that if not for the body swap, Buffy would have won the fight in TYG. Faith was only able to knock her out like that because Buffy had done some considerable damage to Faith's body before hand.

In WAY, Buffy is holding back, presumably trying to get her body in good condition, but Faith still manages to wear herself out without doing Buffy serious harm. As for the fight on the docks, Faith didn't do a lot of fighting. Buffy did all the real fighting, Faith was still in reasonable condition and Mr Tick was focused on Buffy.

As for Release, given that Buffy could hold her own against Angelus before Angel got his own series, and actually bested him on occasion, I doubt that Buffy would have needed to drug herself in order to beat him.

Spoiler:

In NFFY, I think that the spell Roden used on Buffy weakened her at least a little or Gigi wouldn't have been able to do anything more to her than she managed with Faith.

[KingofCretins]

Then we have the fights in "This Year's Girl" and "Who Are You?". Actually, I think that if not for the body swap, Buffy would have won the fight in TYG. Faith was only able to knock her out like that because Buffy had done some considerable damage to Faith's body before hand.

Doug Petrie explicitly states in the commentary for "This Year's Girl" that Faith is *letting* Buffy pummel her so that after the body swap, which she knew would be coming but Buffy wouldn't, Faith would be able to take her down easily. Buffy does the same thing in "Who Are You?", lets Faith pound on her before using Willow's spell.

As for Release, given that Buffy could hold her own against Angelus before Angel got his own series, and actually bested him on occasion, I doubt that Buffy would have needed to drug herself in order to beat him.

Well, Angel was portrayed as a much tougher fighter on his show than on "Buffy", so I'd probably say beating Angelus on "Angel" is more significant.

As for "No Future For You", to points to keep in mind --

Spoiler:

1. Genevieve didn't give *either* of them a decent fight, it was part of the tragedy of her character's arrogance -- she was no match for Buffy or Faith, even with the element of surprise.

2. There's always an excuse in any fight -- another fight before it, a distraction, something else -- but the result is the only thing that matters. Fighting is *not* about how you play the game and *is* about whether you win or lose. And when you go down the scoresheet and all the excuses and explanations are thrown out the window, Buffy and Faith have each won one fight with the other decisively, and the rest have been fought to a standstill.

[holypotatoes]

The only thing that really confuses me is that when Faith comes to Sunnydale, somehow she seems to fight as well as Buffy does.

Actually, I think that if not for the body swap, Buffy would have won the fight in TYG. Faith was only able to knock her out like that because Buffy had done some considerable damage to Faith's body before hand.

In WAY, Buffy is holding back, presumably trying to get her body in good condition, but Faith still manages to wear herself out without doing Buffy serious harm. As for the fight on the docks, Faith didn't do a lot of fighting. Buffy did all the real fighting, Faith was still in reasonable condition and Mr Tick was focused on Buffy.

First off I had to actually think what WAY was! I didn't get it at first, now I do; I'm just a little slow on the uptake.

Anyway I think everything you just wrote Anon basically adds to my point of it being a writers issue. There's just no way Faith would have the same amount of skill and strength that Buffy would. I feel like the writers just wanted to add a character that was the same as Buffy so they basically made her seem like they were on even ground when they couldn't possibly be. Plus it would've been a little boring and pointless to bring a character in to make them turn bad if Buffy would be able to kick their ass immediately.

Originally Posted by Vampmaster:
Hi Holy Potatoes and thanks for helping me argue this. You mention the difference or lack of in their abilities in Season 3. This I don't hold an issue with, if anything I think it makes sense for Faith to begin with at least develop her abilities as a slayer quicker than Buffy. From what we know of Faith she had a pretty rough childhood and it is likely that even before her calling as a slayer she developed some fighting skills. Who knows she could have been raised in an environment where if you can't handle yourself, your in big trouble. So Faith at least to begin with developing her powers may have had a dead start to the mostly protected prom Queen Buffy. It later when Faiths abilities really lack development due to a combination of her coma and being in prison whereas Buffy does that gives me concern.

I guess Faith could've had fighting skills just from her past but I still don't think it would be like actual training. I have a feeling the fights would've been more scrappy, with hair pulling and kicking and scratching. That kind of stuff. Not like a blow for blow training. You get what I'm saying? IDK I'm starting to confuse myself now.

Oh and Vampmaster, I'm shocked and amazed that you're just now getting season 3!!!! It's like one of the best season's ever! And to Vampmogs... LOVE THE NEW SIG AND AVIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know I should've posted that earlier but I forgot to.

[modifiedblind]

i agree King after rethinking it angel was portrayed as a better fighter in his series. the point i was trying to make is that they shouldnt be evenly matched, all vampires have the same powers but some become better fighters and better skilled, spike kills the two slayers something no other vampire has. i can see them being evenly matched in season 3 and 4, but once buffy starts her new training in season 5 i think she surpasses faith in skill ad possibly strength, there were no fights between them after that so we cant tell, the fight in the comics doesnt really showcase either, now if they had a knock out drag out fight like faith and gigi, then we'd know for sure.

[Bittersweettwit]

The only thing that really confuses me is that when Faith comes to Sunnydale, somehow she seems to fight as well as Buffy does.

Well as I said previously the way that I fanwank it is that Buffy and Faith come from two very different backgrounds. Before coming the slayer we know that Faith had it rough, how rough we don't know exactly, but I would imagine being able to take care of yourself as a really human would be needed. Buffy on the other hand is mostly protected. She's the most popular student in her high school, a cheerleader and the prom queen. As she herself says she's a 'Spordelia'

Doug Petrie explicitly states in the commentary for "This Year's Girl" that Faith is *letting* Buffy pummel her so that after the body swap, which she knew would be coming but Buffy wouldn't, Faith would be able to take her down easily. Buffy does the same thing in "Who Are You?", lets Faith pound on her before using Willow's spell.

Well, Angel was portrayed as a much tougher fighter on his show than on "Buffy", so I'd probably say beating Angelus on "Angel" is more significant.

No not really regardless of external influences I think that any fight between Buffy and Angelus should be counted as it canon. Now I would agree that Angel too has gained experience in his fighting since season two of Buffy having to contend with his own big bads with Jasmine and Wolfram and Hart being key examples. However Buffy would have also gained her experience in this time. Also if you think about it Buffy was a Slayer for three years while Angel by this point had been a vampire for over a hundred years.

I think it is safe for all of us to assume that considering the foes that Buffy has faced as well as Angel and Buffy incredible rate of growth, which may come or may not come with being the slayer. She would still be able to beat Angel, but I am getting off topic sorry.

I guess Faith could've had fighting skills just from her past but I still don't think it would be like actual training. I have a feeling the fights would've been more scrappy, with hair pulling and kicking and scratching. That kind of stuff. Not like a blow for blow training. You get what I'm saying? IDK I'm starting to confuse myself now.

Oh I agree with you. I am nto saying that I imagine Faith with a watcher like figure teaching her before her calling, but just simply that she would have been able to handle herself. I do get what your saying. I think? lol

Oh and Vampmaster, I'm shocked and amazed that you're just now getting season 3!!!! It's like one of the best season's ever! And to Vampmogs... LOVE THE NEW SIG AND AVIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know I should've posted that earlier but I forgot to.

lol I know I would have loved to get it sooner seeing as it is my second favourite Season with Season 5 being my favourite. But unfortunately the local store never seemed to have it in when I had the money to buy it

i agree King after rethinking it angel was portrayed as a better fighter in his series. the point i was trying to make is that they shouldnt be evenly matched, all vampires have the same powers but some become better fighters and better skilled, spike kills the two slayers something no other vampire has. i can see them being evenly matched in season 3 and 4, but once buffy starts her new training in season 5 i think she surpasses faith in skill ad possibly strength, there were no fights between them after that so we cant tell, the fight in the comics doesnt really showcase either, now if they had a knock out drag out fight like faith and gigi, then we'd know for sure.

I am sorry but no other vampire has killed two slayers before? Where exactly are we told that within the series. Sure we have never heard of any of the vampires that Buffy has faced having the same credentials, but we have also never been told that this is a feat that belongs to Spike alone. Luke of Season 1 strikes me as a vampire who has faced Slayers in his time. I have a feeling that there is a reference somewhere to him facing slayers in the past that I am forgetting. If anyone else knows it (if there is one) feel free to post here.

[Anon]

Doug Petrie explicitly states in the commentary for "This Year's Girl" that Faith is *letting* Buffy pummel her so that after the body swap, which she knew would be coming but Buffy wouldn't, Faith would be able to take her down easily. Buffy does the same thing in "Who Are You?", lets Faith pound on her before using Willow's spell.

In which case neither tell us much.

Well, Angel was portrayed as a much tougher fighter on his show than on "Buffy", so I'd probably say beating Angelus on "Angel" is more significant.

Doesn't change my belief that if it had been Buffy, they wouldn't have needed Orpheus.

As for "No Future For You", to points to keep in mind --

Spoiler:

1. Genevieve didn't give *either* of them a decent fight, it was part of the tragedy of her character's arrogance -- she was no match for Buffy or Faith, even with the element of surprise.

Spoiler:

No, but on the other hand she didn't even manage to land a punch on Faith, where as she did on Buffy.

2. There's always an excuse in any fight -- another fight before it, a distraction, something else -- but the result is the only thing that matters. Fighting is *not* about how you play the game and *is* about whether you win or lose. And when you go down the scoresheet and all the excuses and explanations are thrown out the window, Buffy and Faith have each won one fight with the other decisively, and the rest have been fought to a standstill.

That depends on how you look at it. If you are trying to determine who is the better fighter, you have to take everything into account. All other things being equal, Buffy really should be a match for Faith.

[Bittersweettwit]

In which case neither tell us much.

Exactly I think if one is going to insist on making the argument that the fight was only won because Buffy or Faith allowed themselves to lose. Then the fight shouldn't be count as indicating the skill of either slayer.

That depends on how you look at it. If you are trying to determine who is the better fighter, you have to take everything into account. All other things being equal, Buffy really should be a match for Faith.

Realistically taking everything into account not only should Buffy be a match for Faith, but she should be able to kick her ass the way that she can wit most of the slayers who were activated from Willow spell in chosen. My reasons for this is firstly Buffy has a three year head start on Faith though I have given my explaination of this and Buffy has faced far more foes and gone through more training than Faith.

[Fehmina]

Firstly, thanks Vampmaster for as always, a fantastic post

I think everything concerning their individual fights (ep by ep) has already been commented on, so i'll just address their 'skill' as slayers.

If you look at Buffy and Faith seperately, they're extremely different.
Faith has a certain 'rawness' about her, where she feeds on her emotions during a fight, and tends to revel in it. Buffy, on the otherhand, is somewhat more held back and honed. She has a certain flair and polish to her moves which Faith tends to lack.
However, i think Faith showed Buffy how to enjoy 'the fight' and made her realise that being a slayer isn't something to be ashamed of. Making Buffy embrace her powers, and probably pushed her that much further into becoming a better slayer than Faith.
Buffy definately has the experience over Faith, you've covered all the major fights (very well might i add ;-] ). And to address the fact that Faith has remained at the same level as Buffy, despite being incarcerated, i think we must refer to her time with Angel and what he may have taught her.
I'll be honest in saying that i won't pretend to be an expert in what happened between Angel and Faith, but as i understand it, Angel was able to relate to her on a level that Buffy or anyone else couldn't (including even the Mayor).
So during her time in prison, despite not having the most challenging of fights, she learnt to direct her powers inwardly and therefore hone them. Much like Angel does. Changing her anger into something she can use.

I hope i've helped address some matters... i don't think i've forgotten anything i wanted to say, heh.

x

[Bittersweettwit]

However, i think Faith showed Buffy how to enjoy 'the fight' and made her realise that being a slayer isn't something to be ashamed of. Making Buffy embrace her powers, and probably pushed her that much further into becoming a better slayer than Faith.

I think so too. In my opinion apart of what makes Buffy such a great slayer is the fact that she has a bit of both Kendra and Faith in her. Buffy has the ability to hold her emotions back so that they won't get her killed, or so that she can do what needs to be done such vanquishing Angelus. On the other hand she also knows that her emotions are an asset, she clearly states to Kendra in What My Line Part 2 when they are discussing slayer techniques and Buffy states that she would have eventually beaten Kendra due to her bland fighting style.

She has also of course demonstrated this ability to channel her emotions on several occasions one that is most notable to me is in The Gift versus Glory. I am pretty certain that had she not of had so much to fight for in other words Dawn life. There is no way that she would have beaten down on Glory the way she did. I think looking back at the other fights between the two when Dawn was still safe could be used to back my opinion on this up.

Buffy definately has the experience over Faith, you've covered all the major fights (very well might i add ;-] ). And to address the fact that Faith has remained at the same level as Buffy, despite being incarcerated, i think we must refer to her time with Angel and what he may have taught her.
I'll be honest in saying that i won't pretend to be an expert in what happened between Angel and Faith, but as i understand it, Angel was able to relate to her on a level that Buffy or anyone else couldn't (including even the Mayor).
So during her time in prison, despite not having the most challenging of fights, she learnt to direct her powers inwardly and therefore hone them. Much like Angel does. Changing her anger into something she can use.

Your right myself and other members have previously said that Faith has become a slayer in some ways. She clearly demonstrates much better decision making and shows that though she isn't fully ready yet. She has certainly grown leadership skills. Could you imagine the Faith of Season 3 even pre Bad girls taking charge of the potentials slayer the way she did in season 7? However I still think that Faith has a long way to go with the decision making aspect of being the slayer. I made reference to this later when I was using her decision to lower her defenses against Angelus as an example of her brashness still showing through.

I hope i've helped address some matters... i don't think i've forgotten anything i wanted to say, heh.

x

Yep you have indeed and welcome to the conversation! I just hoped I have provided you with some information that you can argue with.