Should all Demons be killed?

[jdt1986]

Something just occurred to me...

The slayer has a duty to kill Demons and Vampires wherever she may find them, but what if they are 'neutral' (don't care about humanity and stay out of the way of humans)? Take for example the demon in 'Enemies' (S3 E17), who, apart from being slightly dodgy and unethical, was more or less a law abiding citizen? Should he be killed purely because he is a demon?

My view on this may be slightly controversial... I believe he should be killed... Demons have no place on earth, they do not belong to this reality... If people wanna get all cute and fluffy about it, then at the very least magick should be used to transport these demons to the dimensions and realities they originate from...

So, what do you think? Should they stay, or should they go? Be allowed to live, or killed?

Jamie

[Nostalgia]

No..

Just because something is a demon.. doesn't mean that they should be killed. Clem is a perfect example.. there are a ton of good demons in the Buffyverse.. and I think it's equivalent to discrimination to just say they should die because they are a demon.

Great thread though.. I know someone will make a good point to why they SHOULD all be killed.

However.. I don't agree that demons are equal to humans.. we are better than them. Just as we are better than dogs and cats. We are the superior race.

[skinless]

I think that they should stay If they are law abiding citizen. If not they should die. But I dont think they are that inferior to us cuz Humans and Demons are Practically the Same in the sense that We Kill people too and have done just as bad if not worse stuff than Demons

[Amber]

Clem is a great example, as well as guys like Merle, and especially Lorne. Not ALL demons are evil, just as not all people are necessarily evil. It's a stereotype.

It's one that Gunn fell victim to early on, as did Connor. That's also like saying Cordelia should have been killed after agreeing to become part demon. In fact I don't actually think Jasmine should have been killed, but that's a whole other discussion.

All in all. I would say no. They should be allowed to stay. Innocent until proven guilty. Or until they eat someone.

[vampmogs]

Buffy should only kill a demon if is a threat to innocent lives. Clem, Lorne- big examples of demons who shouldn't be killed because they are not. It'd be wrong to say they should automatically die because they are a demon, the world isn't that black and white. Heck, I think some demons deserve to live more than some humans on the show.

[alexa]

I agree with vampmogs for similar reasons. Also, wouldn't be very interesting anymore.

Although it does make me wonder about the story told in Fray. How do they expel all demons from this dimension without expelling some of the good ones? And if they expel all the demons and magics, does this mean they expel anyone who practices magic.. or just the magic itself. Anyway I don't like the idea of that happening anytime soon. But I suppose there's always room for more stories to be told about Fray if the Buffy tales end.

[vampmogs]

I agree with vampmogs for similar reasons. Also, wouldn't be very interesting anymore.

Although it does make me wonder about the story told in Fray. How do they expel all demons from this dimension without expelling some of the good ones? And if they expel all the demons and magics, does this mean they expel anyone who practices magic.. or just the magic itself. Anyway I don't like the idea of that happening anytime soon. But I suppose there's always room for more stories to be told about Fray if the Buffy tales end.

It does seem like Buffy season 8 is heading in that direction. BUT since Joss has pretty much confirmed a season 9 and stated it will already be very different from Buffy season 8 I'm guessing it won't happen any time soon.

But yeah the question of all demons being banished is very interesting. A while back a few of us were pondering wether this could be the way Spike and Angel could become human? Will their humanity remain because of their souls and thus they become human? Or will the fact they are physically "demon" mean they'll be banished to? Very interesting.

[spuffbeste]

I agree with the other ones in Clem. Clem is an obvious great example for this question.
Also, I think Whistler is a great example too. If he were killed by the slayer, he wouldn't have the chance to show Buffy to Angel and make Angel a useful character.

[Nina]

I agree with the most posts here. Demons should only be killed if they are a danger for innocent people.

Kill everybody who is (part) demon would decrease the numbers of warriors on the good side. If we do that, the next persons had to be killed; Whistler, Angel, Spike, Lorne, Connor, Cordelia, Doyle, Illyria, Anya, Harmony, Groo, Drogyn and Clem. In the end of Ats, the A-team would be Gunn and Wesley together. Not really a big team.

And why should somebody kill Lorne? Because he is green? I don't think there are many 'better' persons in the verse as Lorne. On the other side, we have humans like Warren, Lilah, Lindsay, Holland etc. They should live because they aren't green? They are evil, but human. They also proved that humans can be really dangerous, especially when you don't kill humans.

I think the line should be between evil & good or between souled & soulless. But never between demon & human, because demons can be better persons as humans.

[Nostalgia]

It does seem like Buffy season 8 is heading in that direction. BUT since Joss has pretty much confirmed a season 9 and stated it will already be very different from Buffy season 8 I'm guessing it won't happen any time soon.

Ooo.. he confirmed it's already different from season 9?!!

Do we have a theme for season 8 yet?

[vampmogs]

Ooo.. he confirmed it's already different from season 9?!!

Do we have a theme for season 8 yet?

I'm not sure what you'd call the theme as of yet. But some are popping up, the idea of consequences for your actions. And they are touching on the ideas of the morality in killing humans as well as delving into the darkness of a slayer again though this time with a very different approach. But as far as a theme goes, I think it is a little too early to tell yet. But consequences and change are big ones.

[selenspuffy]

They shouldn't be killed! Actually, if this was about reality, I mean our own world, I'd have said they should be killed, but in the series, they're useful sometimes..Like alot of people said, Clem is obviously a good demon in example.

[buffyholic]

I agree with the point about Clem. He?s a demon but that does not make him evil and ready to be killed. The Buffyverse is not that black and white. There?s a lot of grey mixed into it and I don?t agree with the point that all demons should be killed. That?s like Initiative stuff and I don?t like it.

Not all demons are bad as well as not all human are good. Sometimes, there are worse humans than demons. We can?t think like that. There are a lot of grey areas in the Buffyverse.

[KingofCretins]

Lorne is the only one I really trust -- we've seen him actually do good. Clem is at best neutral and personable.

The case for not just assuming a demon is 'okay' just because he has a sense of humor and basic civility can be summed up in one word -- D'Hoffryn.

[Mabus]

While KoC makes a legitmate point about Clem's behavior, on the whole I disagree with him.

I'd say I was going to go out on a limb here--but it seems like most people agree with me lately. I believe that sapient demons should be treated according to the same moral standard as humans, and even nonsapient ones according to the standard used for animals (albeit many of them are dangerous animals). This does mean that certain kinds of demon (if we take accounts of their characterization at face value) will probably end up being wiped out, but even then that's not the goal.

Historical note--and hopefully no one will object and say I'm being too serious about the matter--a few centuries ago there was serious debate about whether Native Americans were human at all. (Not just a "lesser race", either--full-on questioning of humanity. For perspective, the great apes were under the same consideration at the time.) No such arguments have occurred in a while because we have not come across any new groups of sapient or possibly sapient beings for quite some time, but should we ever encounter aliens or create true AI, the issue will rise up to haunt us again.

[KingofCretins]

Historical note--and hopefully no one will object and say I'm being too serious about the matter--a few centuries ago there was serious debate about whether Native Americans were human at all.

That was a failure on the objective facts, though. Native Americans are humans -- 46 chromosomes, vertabrates, etc. With humans and demons, it's not *just* a philosophical distinction, it is objectively factual as well.

If we were to apply human standards of morality to gorillas, then, yeah, gorillas probably do things we'd call evil -- but the difference is that the demons are sentient and are moral agents, unlike the gorilla. The gorilla and the lion do what they do according to their nature. The demon knows that it's objectively evil and does it *for that reason*.

[Mabus]

That was a failure on the objective facts, though. Native Americans are humans -- 46 chromosomes, vertabrates, etc. With humans and demons, it's not *just* a philosophical distinction, it is objectively factual as well.

Fair enough--though it's open to question how available that information was to the limited scientific knowledge of the sixteenth century.

If we were to apply human standards of morality to gorillas, then, yeah, gorillas probably do things we'd call evil -- but the difference is that the demons are sentient and are moral agents, unlike the gorilla. The gorilla and the lion do what they do according to their nature. The demon knows that it's objectively evil and does it *for that reason*.

I think the key statement here is the last one. I'm not sure that's clear in the Buffyverse in most cases. It may be true in some--as when Angel says that, as Angelus, he "believed in evil". However, the majority of evil demons we've seen have either a physical dependency on humanity, a set of violent instincts ingrained in their nature (analogous to a beast of prey), or a violent but essentially voluntary culture (analogous to a number of human societies--the Mongols, or Nazi Germany). The first is probably impossible to overcome, though it may be mitigable in some cases where the dependency doesn't require death. The second is difficult to overcome at best, but may not be impossible (cf. the Pria Motu). The third, presumably, is relatively easy to change over time, given a reason (cf. the Anomovic).

[kana]

It's weird actually and I think it depends on the individual's view on morality. Spike didn't believe in evil but followed his instincts, Angelus believed in evil. Marcus (along with some other beings) believed that there is no objective morality but our perception on it. Vampire, humans, demons, etc could take this stance. Some demons simply view humans as emotional rather than moral etc...

[KingofCretins]

Marcus (along with some other beings) believed that there is no objective morality but our perception on it.

Well, in point of fact, it's rarely if ever the good guys articulating this point of view. I refer you to Emperor Palpatine, very big on moral relativism.

Holden describes the very experience of becoming a vampire as becoming part of this very evil compulsion. And Sam Lawson instantly become more enthused about the idea of eating his fellow crewmen instead of saving him, as he'd wanted as a human.

[redrevo]

Well, in point of fact, it's rarely if ever the good guys articulating this point of view. I refer you to Emperor Palpatine, very big on moral relativism.

That's only because the vast majority of people today believe in morality. People want a hero they can identify with, and a villain (nearly) everyone can condemn - and what's the greatest moral crime but rejecting morality?

Regarding demons - why kill them if they're not in the way? Who decided that demons "belong" anywhere? Humans are up in the air and out in space where they never were before.