To stake, or not to stake.

[Nina]

I hope you aren't tired of all my new threads. Because, I've a new topic.

In the seasons of BtVS, there are two vampires not staked who maybe should be. I'm talking about Angel and Spike. Of course there are also Drusilla and Harmony ... but they aren't dust for other reasons.

Back to Angel and Spike. I don't mean Angelus and pre-chip Spike. But Angel and chipped/souled Spike who are both saved because they were 'harmless'.
The real reason they never turned into dust is of course; the big fanbase they both have. But in the series they are saved because they can't/won't hurt people anymore. Only there was of course the fact that Angel could lose his soul, which resulted in Angelus ... who likes to kill them all. And 'harmless' Spike tried to kill the Scoobies on many different ways when he had his chip. So, why aren't they dust?

Why Angel isn't dust isn't really hard to figure out. Buffy loves him, she had to 'kill' him once and that was a big slap in her face. Besides Angel tried to be a good man. It doesn't change the fact that he is a ticking timebomb and keeping him alive could result in a big massacre. But I can understand why Buffy didn't kill him.

I can't understand why Spike wasn't dust in season 4, 5 or 6. He tried to kill them, he tried to rape Buffy and he had a sexrobot of her, which would be for me a good reason to kill him. But Spike survived, and ME didn't gave me a good reason. He wasn't that needed in the team, he wasn't harmless and he wasn't (or tried to be) a good guy either. Yes, he tried to be a man for Buffy, but season 6 showed enough of him to know he couldn't be good without a soul. When he had a soul, he deserved the same chances as Angel of course, but shouldn't he be dust before season 7?

I know about the redemption and stuff, but is keeping innocents save, not more important than the fact that Angel/Spike can (maybe) be redeemed. What if they don't? What if something goes wrong? Is it worth the risk? I think it isn't, maybe Angel because he was trying to do good.

IMO; Both should be staked, but I can understand why Angel wasn't dust.

[KingofCretins]

Soul Spike, up until after the trigger is broken in "Lies My Parents Told Me", could have justifiably been staked, in my opinion, because he posed a pretty serious threat. It wouldn't have been something to do lightly, though.

Angel, when cursed, I could see justifying it for the same reason -- even with his curse, he is at best an unpinned hand grenade that just hasn't gone off and may never, but you can't be sure. I think a cold but logical decision would have involved staking him.

I don't think either of them would have "deserved" it, though, at that point.

Chipped Spike could have been staked at any time up to and through "Seeing Red" without the person doing the staking even needing to apologize for it or feel bad. Whatever good he did was purely to keep them from doing that, and he was still being evil a lot of the time, with the demon egg thing and trying to kill that girl in "Smashed".

Angelus... if you have a shot, take it.

[Shin]

Souled Spike and Angel, I think, should not be staked. Angel has already proven that he will never lose his soul again and surely not on purpose (I'm sure that he won't since Reprise). He has also proven on various occasions that he is a hero/champion. Plus he has said that if he ever turned Angelus again, they should kill him, no questions asked. Souled Spike is at his worst someone that doesn't do any harm besides random brawls. He could turn into a fine hero after some time and he is already in progress to become one. Plus I don't see him killing anyone soon. Chipped Spike, however, should have been killed, he was just a vampire that couldn't really hurt humans directly, but as proven by his work with Adam, has tried to kill indirectly none the less. He was an indirect danger and there was no reason to believe he might regain his killing power some day. I'd like to add that if you have to kill cursed Angel, same goes for Willow. I think the chance he will go evil once again is as small as Willow going dark again. Unless:

Spoiler:

(like in AtSS4)

[tangent]

I think the whole thing can be explained to be the difference between killing an unknown vampire in a graveyard in a fight and killing someone you have grown to know and perhaps love. It's like the difference between a soldier in a war killing the enemy and then having to face killing his friend. It's too completely different things.

Of the two i would say spike is perhaps the greatest immediate threat but even though Angel is taking the utmost care not to let Angelus out if he ever did again then...

[Shin]

I think the whole thing can be explained to be the difference between killing an unknown vampire in a graveyard in a fight and killing someone you have grown to know and perhaps love. It's like the difference between a soldier in a war killing the enemy and then having to face killing his friend. It's too completely different things.

Of the two i would say spike is perhaps the greatest immediate threat but even though Angel is taking the utmost care not to let Angelus out if he ever did again then...

I think it's more the fact that neither Angel nor Spike (souled) form a threat to anyone. Especially since both of them seem to be doing good instead.

[Asphodel]

Kind of O/T, but I don't understand why Faith is never killed, especially when she's in the coma. I mean, the Watchers Council had no slayer, what with Buffy 'resigning' and Faith evil and comatose. If an agent had slipped in and killed her, instead of just guarding her, another girl would be Chosen and they'd have a Slayer again. Watchers Council back in business.

I mean, I'm glad they didn't - I love Faith, but really, it makes no sense.

[Shin]

Kind of O/T, but I don't understand why Faith is never killed, especially when she's in the coma. I mean, the Watchers Council had no slayer, what with Buffy 'resigning' and Faith evil and comatose. If an agent had slipped in and killed her, instead of just guarding her, another girl would be Chosen and they'd have a Slayer again. Watchers Council back in business.

I mean, I'm glad they didn't - I love Faith, but really, it makes no sense.

Good point. Only thing I can come up with is maybe they didn't make a decision about that until in the Angel episode"Sanctuary". Maybe they thought killing a slayer was even going too far for them.

[kana]

I definitely think both of them have survived as long as they haved because of Buffy's feelings for them. Part of Buffy's morality is that she doesn't adopt the abstract morality of the council, for Buffy it's intuitive based upon her feeling. From an objecive point of view it becomes difficult, because it seems some vampires are "ok". If not kill him, if not, can you justify killing other vampires you don't fancy? However if we are to make it all objective, doesn't that distroy part of what makes Buffy, her emotional reaction to such matters? Hmmm.

[spuffbeste]

You are asking why Spike didn't turn to dust in 4,5 or 6. I think Buffy needed him to help her. For example, in season 5 when they're escaping from Glory she takes Spike with her too. In season 6, she needs Spike again. When Spike has gone to get his soul back, she wants Spike to look after Dawn so she still needs him. Not just for these moments, she always needs him to slay vampires and demons. Imo, that's the main reason for Spike...

[Nina]

You are asking why Spike didn't turn to dust in 4,5 or 6. I think Buffy needed him to help her.

I thought about that too, but I never believed that the need for a slay-buddy was that big. Spike helped sometimes, but he was also dangerous. And in season 4, he was no help at all. He tried to kill them and was just that snarky guy in the bath/chair. Why not dust the dangerous Spike the moment you have the chance?

When Spike has gone to get his soul back, she wants Spike to look after Dawn so she still needs him.

Off-topic, but I thought that was really one of the worst things ever, she asked the guy who just tried to rape her to babysit her younger sister. When I saw that, I almost fell of my chair.

anyway:

Kind of O/T, but I don't understand why Faith is never killed, especially when she's in the coma. I mean, the Watchers Council had no slayer, what with Buffy 'resigning' and Faith evil and comatose. If an agent had slipped in and killed her, instead of just guarding her, another girl would be Chosen and they'd have a Slayer again. Watchers Council back in business.

I never thought about that, but your right. I can see the CoW do that. Maybe it's against their moral codes? Never kill a girl in a coma? (Not that I believe that.)



Maybe keeping Spike alive is something about morality? Never kill something what can't kill you? I think it's a lame excuse to not kill a dangerous vampire, but maybe ...

[KingofCretins]

I think that's the right theory, that you don't kill the harmless thing, but the wrong understanding of what 'harm' means. There are at least a couple people that died because of Dru's little mission to "save" Spike, for instance.

The decision to not kill Spike actually nearly got Buffy herself killed -- if Spike doesn't feel a surge of sympathy for her, there's little doubt he would have succeeded in killing her in "Fool For Love".

[Sassy]

When they had a soul they shouldn't have been staked. But Angelus should have been staked as soon as the curse was broken. Spike should have been staked even when he had the chip. He was still evil even with the chip, he just couldn't do any direct harm but as seen in season four he still tried to kill the Scoobies. So basically, souless stake, souled don't.

[sueworld]

And in season 4, he was no help at all. He tried to kill them and was just that snarky guy in the bath/chair. Why not dust the dangerous Spike the moment you have the chance?

Well the short answer to that one is you'd have a very short dull season that year.

All these type of set-ups are there for one thing, to enrich the story and leave the door open for what writers love best, conflict between characters.

[KingofCretins]

There were three times I can think of where the "not killing Spike" was actually pretty hard to believe.

1. Riley finds Spike sniffing Buffy's clothes, throws him out onto the lawn, but then tosses him his blanket for no readily apparent reason.

2. Giles throws newly proven stalker Spike, who had almost gotten Buffy killed, out of the Magic Box and into the street, but, again, inexplicably (especially under those circumstances) gives him his blanket.

3. Riley stakes Spike... with a fake stake. Why did he have a fake stake? Why go through the trouble of making a fake stake? I'm not saying he was justified per se, but if you're mad enough to stake him, stake him.

It's not like you can't just play dumb afterwards. Bring a broom and dustpan and there's not even any evidence of a crime. He could have just skipped town.

[sueworld]

There were three times I can think of where the "not killing Spike" was actually pretty hard to believe.

1. Riley finds Spike sniffing Buffy's clothes, throws him out onto the lawn, but then tosses him his blanket for no readily apparent reason.

2. Giles throws newly proven stalker Spike, who had almost gotten Buffy killed, out of the Magic Box and into the street, but, again, inexplicably (especially under those circumstances) gives him his blanket.

3. Riley stakes Spike... with a fake stake. Why did he have a fake stake? Why go through the trouble of making a fake stake? I'm not saying he was justified per se, but if you're mad enough to stake him, stake him.

It's not like you can't just play dumb afterwards. Bring a broom and dustpan and there's not even any evidence of a crime. He could have just skipped town

Because they're all basically honorable people? Yes, they could have done away with him at those points, but because they had agreed to spare Spike, they 'stuck with the plan' regardless.

[KingofCretins]

I don't think killing stalker Spike in either instance mentioned would have been dishonorable, particularly in "I Was Made to Love You". And it's not like they'd have had a reason to think Buffy would have been really mad -- remember her idea to Riley in "Out of My Mind"? Or her hope that he'd had a 'dusty ending' in "Intervention"?

I also tend to think they didn't stake him in "Primeval" less because he'd saved them and more because they were all too tired to bother.

ChipSpike could have been staked almost unilaterally, I think. And the justification case, at least a utilitarian one, can be made for staking Angel or TriggerSpike. The only one I can't see even making an argument for killing is post-Trigger Soul Spike.

Goodness, that all sounds so ridiculous.

"Because the military gave him a soul?" -- Robin Wood, understandably confused, "Lies My Parents Told Me".

I gotta admit, I hate that episode, but I love that scene. Nice to know that they were able to look back and realize how nuts it all sounded.

[sueworld]

I gotta admit, I hate that episode, but I love that scene. Nice to know that they were able to look back and realize how nuts it all sounded.

Yes, but as a piece of drama it obviously worked as many fans seemed to love what they did during those seasons.

[KingofCretins]

Whether it 'worked' compared to the earlier seasons is less clear, but that's besides the point.

I wonder if there is anything that could have *gotten* Spike or Angel staked had Buffy or anyone else equipped to do the job known of it? For example, the Angel episode "Reunion", or "Power Play", where

Spoiler:

he allowed Darla and Dru to murder a couple dozen people that he found annoying and personally killed a fellow champion to sell his cover, respectively.

Or, in Spike's case, when he willingly participates in two murders with Dru (he could have stopped her, so, yeah, it counts) and tried to kill that girl in "Smashed". Odds are, if Buffy knows about that, at the very least they aren't knocking down a building that night, and staking very well could have been discussed.

[Dorian's Kitten]

I think the point is not that Spike isn't dangerous when he is chipped, just that he is no more dangerous than a human. Anyone can do evil, Spike is no longer any more dangerous than anyone else.

In both his and Angel's case I think we need to remember that Buffy is a slayer-she has a duty to kill demons in order to protect, but it doesn't make her a judge and jury. She doesn't have the right to kill as revenge any more than we do.

[jdt1986]

In my opinion Spike should have been staked either at the end of 'Lovers Walk' (S3 E8) or early on in S4... He didn't really contribute anything to the team beside occasionally reminding them how much he wanted to kill them all and how dangerous he would be once he got rid of his chip, and all of the Scoobies professed at least a mild dislike (up to a raging hatred) of Spike at some point... I think the writers just wanted to have a male demon-character in the series to try to replace Angel... They should have done away with Spike and brought in a new Demon guy, kinda like the Groosalugg or Doyle in Angel (half human, half demon) or something like that...

Jamie