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  • Bizzaro Sunnydale

    This was first discussed in another thread that was about something else entirely. Although I thought it was a very interesting discussion that deserved its own home.

    The question for you is: what is Bizzaro Sunnydale?

    Some posters believe it is an alternative universe, like the world without shrimp. That Anya simply planted Cordelia and herself in this other dimension that is Sunnydale sans Buffy. I, on the other hand, believe otherwise. I see Bizzaro Sunnydale as (what was) the reality. I don't compare it to the world of shrimp. I like to compare Anya's grant as to the spell Jonathan cast in "Superstar" and the one the monks cast in "No Place Like Home." This means that Bizzaro Sunnydale only truly existed the second Anya said "wish granted." Therefore, the characters in that setting (ie. Vamp Willow, Vamp Xander, The White Hats) were only actually living when the wish was granted, just as how Jonathan was actually cool the moment he cast his spell, and Dawn only actually lived when the monks cast their spell. Like Jonathan and the monks, Anya simply altered history (specifically, she made Buffy move to Cleveland rather than Sunny-D) and the result was Bizzaro Sunnydale.

    Any thoughts?
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  • #2
    The counter-proposal here is: do alternate timelines and alternate dimensions have a substantial difference? There are infinite alternate timelines, conceptually, based on every choice that's made, and each one of those timelines has an ontological substance. Since we can't travel between them, or observe from one to the other, what distinguishes that from an alternate dimension?

    I submit that the proposal that Anya's power shifted the timeline is essentially identical to the proposal that she picked Cordy up and dropped her in another dimension -- she was still the only thing that was different.

    I think that the Wishverse is quite different in substance from Jonathan's spell or the monk's spell to create Dawn. Those spells acted by altering the consciousness of the people they affected, as evidenced by the fact that Buffy, in both instances, was able to perceive them as flawed, and that Adam was not affected at all. The Wishverse, be it an alternate timeline or dimension, *was* the essential shape of reality for those experiencing it. There was nothing to see there, no curtain to pull back. Wishverse Giles had no real evidence to base his belief that Anya had created their timeline, he was just a guy with nothing left to try.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
      The counter-proposal here is: do alternate timelines and alternate dimensions have a substantial difference? There are infinite alternate timelines, conceptually, based on every choice that's made, and each one of those timelines has an ontological substance. Since we can't travel between them, or observe from one to the other, what distinguishes that from an alternate dimension?

      I submit that the proposal that Anya's power shifted the timeline is essentially identical to the proposal that she picked Cordy up and dropped her in another dimension -- she was still the only thing that was different.

      I think that the Wishverse is quite different in substance from Jonathan's spell or the monk's spell to create Dawn. Those spells acted by altering the consciousness of the people they affected, as evidenced by the fact that Buffy, in both instances, was able to perceive them as flawed, and that Adam was not affected at all. The Wishverse, be it an alternate timeline or dimension, *was* the essential shape of reality for those experiencing it. There was nothing to see there, no curtain to pull back. Wishverse Giles had no real evidence to base his belief that Anya had created their timeline, he was just a guy with nothing left to try.
      I'm an alternate dimension sorta guy , so I like whatcha came up with haha.

      Also, should Anya have actually alterted time and changed history, why would she be around? If she changed the history why would she have needed to come to Sunnydale? I guess you can argue that she is bound to her necklace, but why would she make such a foolish mistake as to let Cordelia wear it?

      Also, should you go with the changing history theory, how does Cordy remember everything from her old history, though when she goes back she has no recollection of Wishverse. If she remembered one, why wouldn't she remember both?
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      • #4
        Originally posted by Weredog View Post
        This means that Bizzaro Sunnydale only truly existed the second Anya said "wish granted."
        True. That doesn't mean it can't still be an alternate dimension.

        For example, remember in Back to the Future Part II when Doc Brown is explaining why the 1985 they ended up is different than the one the came from originally? Because the "time line skewed creating" an alternate 1985. Different to them but reality to everyone else.

        Well, Anya created an alternate reality where it was different to Cordelia but reality to everyone other Sunnydale denizen.

        Did I really just use BTTF logic to explain my position on this? Sorry about that! Makes sense to me!
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Jenni Lou View Post
          Did I really just use BTTF logic to explain my position on this? Sorry about that! Makes sense to me!
          Makes perfect sense to me too! That was how I saw it too. In every film about time travel they talk about disrupting the space/time continuum (The Butterfly Effect - you know the real idea behind the disruption to the universe that the film based it's consequences on) and how things that you do in the past can change the future. Makes sense too - if someone had killed Adolf Hitler when he was a child, or stopped the planes flying into the Twin Towers the world could be a very different place, but we wouldn't know it to be different as we'd've only lived through the one version of history.

          I see the wishverse as a possible reality, in which there are millions and millions of. Every choice that every person makes forms the world that we live in. If you could go back and change something (like make a vampire slayer move to a different town) then the world as we know it would be different, just as the world in Cleveland would be different/safer too. I see the future as a myriad of possibilities (a map of roads if you like) and which road you take depends on where you end up. Anya changed Sunnydale's present by changing the path of Buffy in the past.

          It's not an alternative dimension as it is entirely possible that it could've happened, just that it didn't.

          God I hope that all makes sense!
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          • #6
            Originally posted by EndersWrath View Post
            Also, should you go with the changing history theory, how does Cordy remember everything from her old history, though when she goes back she has no recollection of Wishverse. If she remembered one, why wouldn't she remember both?
            She didn't remember the events that occurred in Bizzaro Sunnydale because the pendant was broken. Since the pendant was broken, Bizzaro Sunnydale was completely erased. It was deleted and sent to the recycled bin. She didn't remember it because there was nothing to remember.
            That's why when Anya turned around (the second time for us viewers; first time for the Buffyverse) and said "wish granted," nothing happened because the pendant was lost.

            Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
            I think that the Wishverse is quite different in substance from Jonathan's spell or the monk's spell to create Dawn. Those spells acted by altering the consciousness of the people they affected, as evidenced by the fact that Buffy, in both instances, was able to perceive them as flawed, and that Adam was not affected at all. The Wishverse, be it an alternate timeline or dimension, *was* the essential shape of reality for those experiencing it. There was nothing to see there, no curtain to pull back. Wishverse Giles had no real evidence to base his belief that Anya had created their timeline, he was just a guy with nothing left to try.
            I was only comparing it, not stating that they were indeed the same spells, just as how some who believe it is an alternative dimension compared to the world with no shrimp.
            Do you know what I mean?

            And also I wanna sneak in that Buffy didn't cast the "pull the curtain" spell in "No Place Like Home" because she knew that the world had been altered by Dawn (or that it had been altered period). She had cast it to find out who was hurting her mother. It was only mere fluke that the spell made her realize about Dawn.
            So it was only Jonathan's spell that had Buffy question the reality by herself.
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            • #7
              Actually, I consider Buffy as having already begun to question, on a "what is the Matrix?" level, Dawn's reality as early as "Real Me". But regardless, the crazies also perceived the reality about Dawn implicitly. The point is, those spells affect people, not reality.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by Jenni Lou View Post
                For example, remember in Back to the Future Part II when Doc Brown is explaining why the 1985 they ended up is different than the one the came from originally? Because the "time line skewed creating" an alternate 1985. Different to them but reality to everyone else.

                Well, Anya created an alternate reality where it was different to Cordelia but reality to everyone other Sunnydale denizen.
                I'm sorry, maybe it's because I'm coming down with a cold, but are you agreeing that Bizzaro Sunnydale was a reality that was skewed because Anya made it so? (I'm assuming that because of your "BTTF" reference). Or are you agreeing that Bizzaro Sunnydale is another dimension that had existed as long as Regular Sunnydale?


                Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                Actually, I consider Buffy as having already begun to question, on a "what is the Matrix?" level, Dawn's reality as early as "Real Me". But regardless, the crazies also perceived the reality about Dawn implicitly. The point is, those spells affect people, not reality.
                Buffy questioned Dawn's reality in "Real Me"? When?

                And the crazies only pointed Dawn out because she was the key. Not because she had altered reality.
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Weredog View Post
                  I'm sorry, maybe it's because I'm coming down with a cold, but are you agreeing that Bizzaro Sunnydale was a reality that was skewed because Anya made it so? (I'm assuming that because of your "BTTF" reference). Or are you agreeing that Bizzaro Sunnydale is another dimension that had existed as long as Regular Sunnydale?
                  I am saying that the alternate reality was created when the wish was made. No, I don't think it exited all along.

                  But either way I don't think it matters. Theoretically there could thousands of realities that exist in which Buffy never came to Sunnydale.

                  In any case, we know the reality at the very least continues because Vamp Willow pops out of it a few episodes later.

                  (Also, I edited your post because you double posted so I just added the two together. )
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jenni Lou View Post
                    In any case, we know the reality at the very least continues because Vamp Willow pops out of it a few episodes later.
                    How do you know the reality continues post-snap-Buffy's-neck-and-fade-to-white?
                    See, I believe that that reality ends when Giles breaks the pendant. Wait, let me reword that: I believe that that reality is erased when Giles breaks the pendant.
                    Anya and Willow were only able to summon Vamp Willow because she was where the pendant was lost in.

                    (Also, I edited your post because you double posted so I just added the two together. )
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Weredog View Post
                      Anya and Willow were only able to summon Vamp Willow because she was where the pendant was lost in.
                      But if that reality was erased how does Vamp Willow even exist? Pendant or no pendant being there, I can't get my head around that one.

                      I don't know. I tend not to put a terrible amount of thought into these kinds of matters because there is no clear and clean answer.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jenni Lou View Post
                        But if that reality was erased how does Vamp Willow even exist? Pendant or no pendant being there, I can't get my head around that one.
                        Because Eryshion (the deity that Willow and Anya call to in "Doppelgandland") is able to return to the erased reality. Like Anya said, Eryshion has the ability to fool around with the temporal fold. Notice the keyword: "temporal"? As in it was there, but isn't there anymore. Thus, Bizzaro Sunnydale doesn't exist anymore. It was temporal.

                        I don't know. I tend not to put a terrible amount of thought into these kinds of matters because there is no clear and clean answer.
                        Preaching to the choir, baby.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Weredog View Post
                          Because Eryshion (the deity that Willow and Anya call to in "Doppelgandland") is able to return to the erased reality. Like Anya said, Eryshion has the ability to fool around with the temporal fold. Notice the keyword: "temporal"? As in it was there, but isn't there anymore. Thus, Bizzaro Sunnydale doesn't exist anymore. It was temporal.

                          Well, that works fine for me. I haven't watched those eps in years and so those smaller details have eluded me. But I will take your word for it and it sounds fine to me!

                          Preaching to the choir, baby.
                          That saying always makes me think of Harmony's "Preaching to the horse's mouth."
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                          • #14
                            Because Eryshion (the deity that Willow and Anya call to in "Doppelgandland") is able to return to the erased reality. Like Anya said, Eryshion has the ability to fool around with the temporal fold. Notice the keyword: "temporal"? As in it was there, but isn't there anymore. Thus, Bizzaro Sunnydale doesn't exist anymore. It was temporal.
                            That's... not actually what temporal means. You're using it as synonymous with temporary, and it's not. "Temporal folds" are folds in *time*. In fact, this line basically proves that Anya's manipulation was a timeline manipulation, and that the "Back to the Future" logic is what prevails here.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                              That's... not actually what temporal means. You're using it as synonymous with temporary, and it's not. "Temporal folds" are folds in *time*. In fact, this line basically proves that Anya's manipulation was a timeline manipulation, and that the "Back to the Future" logic is what prevails here.
                              I wasn't going to nitpick that.

                              But I find the the BTTF logic actually explains a great deal of these kinds of situations. No matter what kind of time travel movie I watch I always refer to the rules of BTTF when in doubt. They are remarkably stable for a hypothetical theorem.
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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                That's... not actually what temporal means. You're using it as synonymous with temporary, and it's not. "Temporal folds" are folds in *time*. In fact, this line basically proves that Anya's manipulation was a timeline manipulation, and that the "Back to the Future" logic is what prevails here.
                                Yes, and I agree.
                                I totally believe that Anya modified the timeline to suit Cordelia's wish.
                                We're on the same page here. lol
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                                • #17
                                  Yeah I agree that the Buffyverse timeline was briefly re-written, then restored to normal when Giles smashed the pendant. I don't believe that the Wishverse is a seperate universe existing alongside the Buffyverse.

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Weredog View Post
                                    Because Eryshion (the deity that Willow and Anya call to in "Doppelgandland") is able to return to the erased reality. Like Anya said, Eryshion has the ability to fool around with the temporal fold. Notice the keyword: "temporal"? As in it was there, but isn't there anymore. Thus, Bizzaro Sunnydale doesn't exist anymore. It was temporal.



                                    Preaching to the choir, baby.
                                    It was a temporal fold because Anya and Willow went back in time in that dimension which brought Willow foward. In that episode we saw more events after Willow had been dusted, Anya didn't loose her pendant until after Willow had been dusted. The spell accidentally went to far back and pulled out VampWillow, doesn't mean that alternate reality still doesn't exist, just means they handpicked something from a specific point of time in that dimension.

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                                      It was a temporal fold because Anya and Willow went back in time in that dimension which brought Willow foward. In that episode we saw more events after Willow had been dusted, Anya didn't loose her pendant until after Willow had been dusted.
                                      Actually we did see more events after Willow had been dusted in "The Wish" as well. If memory serves me right, when Vamp Willow dies, Buffy and The Master then engage in their fight.
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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Weredog View Post
                                        Actually we did see more events after Willow had been dusted in "The Wish" as well. If memory serves me right, when Vamp Willow dies, Buffy and The Master then engage in their fight.
                                        Ah that is exactly what I said. I stated;

                                        In that episode we saw more events after Willow had been dusted


                                        That is exactly my the point. The temporal came in because all alternate dimensions are running constantly just like our own. Lets make something clear here. The dimension we watch, the one where Sunnydale is how we know it isn't the correct dimension, there is no correct dimension. It is just another dimension, it is no more correct than the wish dimension. Anya and Willow's spell handpicked a specific point that happened in the timeline of that dimension, which was meant to be before Anya's pendant was broke but accidentally was when Willow was about to be dusted instead. Doesn't meant that dimension isn't still existing and running, they just went to a specific point in the timeline.

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