Pendant. Get the pendant.

[Weredog]

Okay, so mis-continuities is my biggest "Buffy" pet peeve (preceding the cardboard that is Riley Finn.) Moments such as the "I killed Angel, even though we all know I actually sent him to hell" and the "The First tried to make me commit suicide, even though we all know it tried to make me kill Buffy."
However, one that really makes me cringe is the one in one of my all-time favourite episodes "Selfless." Wonderful, wonderful episode! However, I had always wondered: if Anya desired to reverse her vengeance, why didn't she just break her pendant as Giles did in "The Wish," rather than sacrifice her own life? But then I considered the fact that maybe she didn't know breaking her pendant did it since she doesn't remember Bizzaro Sunnydale (which is why she did a spell in "Doppelgangland" to 'return' it.)
But then I recently watched "Older and Far Away." You guys remember what Anya says in that episode? "Pendant. Get the pendant."

Has anyone theor-ied as to why Anya didn't just break her pendant?

[ZacDeath]

I often wondered that myself. When Buffy decided that she needed to take Anya out, I thought for sure she was going to go for her power center or whatever they called it. Except there no longer seems to be any magic pendant that is the sorce of Anya's power.

There are many plot holes in the Buffy universe, I try not to think about them too hard and just accept the show for what it is.

[vampmogs]

Moments such as the "I killed Angel, even though we all know I actually sent him to hell"

Well he might as well have been dead. Dust him or send him through a portal, either way he was going to end up in Hell for what was meant to be eternity. So yeah Buffy basically did kill him, at least in her eyes.

However, I had always wondered: if Anya desired to reverse her vengeance, why didn't she just break her pendant as Giles did in "The Wish," rather than sacrifice her own life?[/QUOTE]

Well D'Hoffryn mentions that bringing twelve bodies back isn't something easy to do. I think it took a lot of power, probably more Anya had which is why she wouldn't have had the power to reverse everything she did, therefore D'Hoffryn had to step in and give the fates a sacrifice which was Anya.

[Jenni Lou]

therefore D'Hoffryn had to step in and give the fates a sacrifice which was Anya.

Well, Halfrek. He took away Anya's powers but essentially killed Halfrek.

That's a good explanation though. Rational. Anya didn't have the power. Haha...and in the season that's "all about power."

[vampmogs]

Well, Halfrek. He took away Anya's powers but essentially killed Halfrek.

Well yeah hee

That's a good explanation though. Rational. Anya didn't have the power. Haha...and in the season that's "all about power."

Hadn't thought about that but good point. Who has the most power, and well D'Hoffryn did in that scene and he was pretty frightening how quickly he turned from making quips to downright evil.

[Weredog]

Well he might as well have been dead. Dust him or send him through a portal, either way he was going to end up in Hell for what was meant to be eternity. So yeah Buffy basically did kill him, at least in her eyes

I can understand why Buffy and. co believed she killed Angel... until "Revelations" when they all realize that he had been in a hell dimension. Angel never died. Never. Ever. He died in a dream sequence in "Surprise" and he died in Bizarro Sunnydale in "The Wish" -- but he never died. And that includes the event in "Becoming." There's no reason why the writers -- and ultimately the characters -- portray the end of "Becoming" as Angel's death.

Well D'Hoffryn mentions that bringing twelve bodies back isn't something easy to do.

How is it not easy? All you got to do is crush the pendant -- that's it.
And sidenote, how can you believe bringing 12 bodies back to life is harder than re-altering the fabric of time?

[Jenni Lou]

And sidenote, how can you believe bringing 12 bodies back to life is harder than re-altering the fabric of time?

Well, it's not, I don't think.

But they didn't really re-alter the fabric of time. I just saw it as more of an alternate reality. Millions of dimensions exist--as Anya can attest, with or without shrimp --so creating a new one based on a Wish doesn't seem so out of the ordinary.

But again, the series is chock full of inconsistencies. This may just be another one. *shrugs*

[vampmogs]

I can understand why Buffy and. co believed she killed Angel... until "Revelations" when they all realize that he had been in a hell dimension. Angel never died. Never. Ever. He died in a dream sequence in "Surprise" and he died in Bizarro Sunnydale in "The Wish" -- but he never died. And that includes the event in "Becoming." There's no reason why the writers -- and ultimately the characters -- portray the end of "Becoming" as Angel's death.

The point is he might as well have been dead. Buffy sending him to Hell was her sacrificing him and their love for the world, she never expected to see him again. So in her eyes at the time she basically killed him, she was never going to see him again and he wasn't on this earth anymore. It still obviously feels like that to her, when she calls back on it she calls back on the feelings she was going through, sending someone away forever, giving them up for the world. So technically Angel didn't die but it felt like he did for the people around him.

And sidenote, how can you believe bringing 12 bodies back to life is harder than re-altering the fabric of time?

Because D'Hoffyrn says it is

Xander asks Willow if she could bring them back and she says she has nowhere near that kind of power. Seeing that Willow is pretty bloody powerful at this point, I'd say yes it'd take a hell of a lot of power. D'Hoffyrn obviously had that power, Anya didn't which is why crushing the pendant wouldn't have worked because Anya's power was in the pendant. If Willow can't do it Anya can't.

Besides I never saw Anya's spell as re-altering the fabric of time, IMO she sent Cordelia to an alternate dimension. She didn't alter the fabric of time than alter it back, if that was the case we could have never had VampWillow because she wouldn't have existed, Willow and Anya's spell brought her from that dimension and placed her in ours.

[NileQT87]

because if you go to hell, usually that means you've died and been judged. it's a leftover of judeo-christian ideas of heaven and hell. certainly, you've got your orpheus stories in greek mythology, etc... but usually going to hell means you're about to face biblical judgment and be treated accordingly... a form of afterlife.

as far as angel not dying... in a sense, liam dies every time the soul goes back into the ether (or the muo-ping). there's a sense of resurrecting a dead human each time he's reensoulled.

i think the sense was that it was a biblical death. though there's a difference between the biblical "heaven" and "hell" and the "hellish" and "heavenly" dimensions used in the jossverse.

remember that angel was often correlated to the idea of the biblical fallen angel (see drusilla's tarot card)... fallen angels have to do with demons in biblical myth. so you've got a lot of irony in there that a demon is named angel with heavy fallen angel attributes. and of course... hell's angel. as i've said, there are bucket-loads of religious concepts with liam, angel and angelus--despite joss being an atheist. it's like he couldn't help himself. plus, if you've watched bones, it seems david really inspires writers to add in a lot of catholicism.

[Weredog]

The point is he might as well have been dead. Buffy sending him to Hell was her sacrificing him and their love for the world, she never expected to see him again. So in her eyes at the time she basically killed him, she was never going to see him again and he wasn't on this earth anymore. It still obviously feels like that to her, when she calls back on it she calls back on the feelings she was going through, sending someone away forever, giving them up for the world. So technically Angel didn't die but it felt like he did for the people around him.

Like I said, from "Becoming" to "Beauty and the Beasts"/"Revelations," I can understand why Buffy and the Scoobies thought Angel was dead. But when they all realize that all this time he had been in a hell dimension, they still go around saying "Buffy killed Angel! Buffy killed Angel!" When in fact, she didn't. And they know that.
In "Selfless," Buffy should've said "I sent Angel to hell!" rather than "I killed Angel!" because, and I'll repeat myself, Buffy -- and the writers -- (should) know that he was sent to hell.

D'Hoffyrn obviously had that power, Anya didn't which is why crushing the pendant wouldn't have worked because Anya's power was in the pendant.

Anya did have the power. Her power lies in her pendant. If her power/pendant can perform the spell to rip the frat boys' hearts out, than her power/pendant can reverse the spell by destroying it.

Besides I never saw Anya's spell as re-altering the fabric of time, IMO she sent Cordelia to an alternate dimension. She didn't alter the fabric of time than alter it back, if that was the case we could have never had VampWillow because she wouldn't have existed, Willow and Anya's spell brought her from that dimension and placed her in ours.

Sorry, when I said "re-altering the fabric of time" I was referring to when Giles destroyed the pendant: the pendant's destruction had re-altered the fabric of time (to its original state). When Anya was granting Cordelia's wish, she was simply altering the fabric of time.
Call it "altering time" or "alternate universe," either way we're talking about the same thing.
What I original asked you was how could re-altering the fabric of time (meaning returning from Bizarro Sunnydale back to Regular Sunnydale) be easier than making a few dead guys come back to life?

Do you know what I mean?

Let me map out the wishes "The Wish" and "Selfless"

THE WISH:

• SUNNYDALE: Cordelia wishes Buffy had never come to Sunnydale.
• BIZZARO SUNNYDALE: Anya alternates reality.
• SUNNYDALE: Reality is reverted to its original state.

SELFLESS:

1. SUNNYDALE: Sorority girl wishes a few guys would get their hearts ripped out.
2. SUNNYDALE: Anya rips a few guys' hearts out.
3. SUNNYDALE: Guys come back alive.

I don't know about you, but ripping a few hearts out sure seems easier than altering reality, no?

[Weredog]

because if you go to hell, usually that means you've died and been judged. it's a leftover of judeo-christian ideas of heaven and hell. certainly, you've got your orpheus stories in greek mythology, etc... but usually going to hell means you're about to face biblical judgment and be treated accordingly... a form of afterlife.

First of all, Angel never went to the Hell that is presented in the Judea-Christian scriptures -- he was simply sent to a hell dimension. In the Buffyverse, we know that there are numerous hell dimensions (like the one Angel went to, and the one Buffy went in "Anne") and there are numerous heavenly dimension (as Tara pointed out in "Tabula Rasa.") So nobody can assume that the hell dimension Angel was sent to was the Biblical hell dimension.
Second of all, it definitely could not have been the Biblical hell dimension, because like you said, he would have had to die and been judged. Angel did not die. He was sucked in Acathla's portal. Had Buffy dusted him, then I would've believed she had killed him. But we all know that wasn't the case. Angel was transported in a hell dimension. The guy never died.

[vampmogs]

Like I said, from "Becoming" to "Beauty and the Beasts"/"Revelations," I can understand why Buffy and the Scoobies thought Angel was dead. But when they all realize that all this time he had been in a hell dimension, they still go around saying "Buffy killed Angel! Buffy killed Angel!" When in fact, she didn't. And they know that.
In "Selfless," Buffy should've said "I sent Angel to hell!" rather than "I killed Angel!" because, and I'll repeat myself, Buffy -- and the writers -- (should) know that he was sent to hell.

Yeah but you are missing my point. Technically no Buffy didn't actually kill Angel, she probably even knew this at the time, so did everyone. But to her it *felt* like she did, she might as well have. She sent him to hell, she was willing to basically give up his life for the world so it *felt* like she killed him. Wether or not he came back is irrelevant because Buffy still remembers the decision she made and what she felt at the time. At the time she was giving up the love of her life forever. When she calls back to it in 'The Gift' she is saying how she can't give up Dawn's life to save the world like she could Angel, she can't make those choices anymore. When she says it in 'Selfless' again she is saying how she basically did give up his life for the world, because she was sending him to hell, she basically did kill him. Yes he came back but at the time she was willing to make that sacrifice.

Anya did have the power. Her power lies in her pendant. If her power/pendant can perform the spell to rip the frat boys' hearts out, than her power/pendant can reverse the spell by destroying it.

How so? With my bare hands and a sharp knife I could probably rip the hearts out of someone, so it isn't a great testement to Anya's power that she could do this as well. Could I bring these people back from the dead? No. Can Anya bring back these people from the dead? No. Can Willow bring these people back from the dead? No. She says so herself, she doesn't have anywhere near that sort of power, and Willow was far more powerful than Anya I'm afraid.

Sorry, when I said "re-altering the fabric of time" I was referring to when Giles destroyed the pendant: the pendant's destruction had re-altered the fabric of time (to its original state).

Well not exactly. It put Cordelia back in her own reality but that dimension still existed, it didn't vanish.

When Anya was granting Cordelia's wish, she was simply altering the fabric of time.

No she sent Cordelia to an alternate dimension where Buffy had never come to Sunnydale, she never altered the time frame of the dimension Cordy was currently in.

Call it "altering time" or "alternate universe," either way we're talking about the same thing.

Well not exactly. An alternatue universe isn't really time, it is an alternate dimension as real as the one our characters were in. That dimension still existed when Anya's pendant was broke, which is why VampWillow still remained in that dimension and was able to be brought back to ours in 'Dopplegangland.'

What I original asked you was how could re-altering the fabric of time (meaning returning from Bizarro Sunnydale back to Regular Sunnydale) be easier than making a few dead guys come back to life?

Travelling through different dimensions doesn't take a great deal of power, you just have to know what you are doing. In Ats Wes has managed to send Angel and the team to at least two other dimensions through portals. The only difference with Anya's spell was that it appeared to take Cordy's mind from her body in the Btvs dimension and place it in the body of alternate reality Cordy in The Wish dimension.

I don't know about you, but ripping a few hearts out sure seems easier than altering reality, no?

Sure but bringing two people back from the dead doesn't. As Willow says, she doesn't even have that power.

[Weredog]

Man, do I have alot to cover! lol

Yeah but you are missing my point. Technically no Buffy didn't actually kill Angel, she probably even knew this at the time, so did everyone. But to her it *felt* like she did, she might as well have. She sent him to hell, she was willing to basically give up his life for the world so it *felt* like she killed him. Wether or not he came back is irrelevant because Buffy still remembers the decision she made and what she felt at the time. At the time she was giving up the love of her life forever. When she calls back to it in 'The Gift' she is saying how she can't give up Dawn's life to save the world like she could Angel, she can't make those choices anymore. When she says it in 'Selfless' again she is saying how she basically did give up his life for the world, because she was sending him to hell, she basically did kill him. Yes he came back but at the time she was willing to make that sacrifice.

My issue isn't that Buffy thought she had killed Angel when she ran the sword through his chest.
My issue isn't that Buffy remembers how it felt like when she stabbed Angel.
My issue is that she goes on in "Amends", "Selfless" and "Chosen" saying that she killed Angel as a fact.
Amends: "I tried to make you go away... I killed you and it didn't help."
Selfless: "I killed Angel! Do you even remember that?"
Chosen: "What was the highlight of our relationship? When you break up with me or when I killed you"
For me, those were mistakes on the writers' parts.
Instead, the dialogue should've been as it was in "The Gift" when Buffy says "I sacrificed Angel to save the world." That is what happened. She did sacrifice Angel to save the world. She didn't kill him, she sacrificed him.

How so? With my bare hands and a sharp knife I could probably rip the hearts out of someone, so it isn't a great testement to Anya's power that she could do this as well.

I guess I should've been more clear: Anya summoned a demon to rip their hearts out. With her power of course. And I'm glad you agree that it this isn't the most majestic curse she's performed.

Can Anya bring back these people from the dead? No.

Yes, she can. All she had to do was break her pendant and it would've revived the frat boys. In Bizzaro Sunnydale, Buffy, Xander and Willow died. They revived when Anya's pendant broke.

Well not exactly. It put Cordelia back in her own reality but that dimension still existed, it didn't vanish.

Yes it did vanish. It existed for a while but then it disappeared. When Anya granted Cordelia's wish, Anya created a tangent universe, aka Bizzaro Sunnydale. She created this universe by making Buffy go to Cleveland in '97 rather than Sunnydale. This universe was then completely eliminated when the pendant broke (because the pendant was what created Bizzaro Sunnydale.)
In "Doppelgangland," Anya (not knowing the pendant broke in this destroyed universe) cast a spell to retrieve her pendant. Now because she was utilizing magic, she was able to reach this lost universe (which is how she got Vamp Willow.)

No she sent Cordelia to an alternate dimension where Buffy had never come to Sunnydale, she never altered the time frame of the dimension Cordy was currently in.

Yes, she did. Bizzaro Sunnydale was never pre-established. Anya fooled around with history and literally made Buffy never come to Sunnydale. Ergo, Bizzaro Sunnydale. Now when her pendant broke, Anya's hard work got erased and we returned to Regular Sunnydale.

Well not exactly. An alternatue universe isn't really time, it is an alternate dimension as real as the one our characters were in. That dimension still existed when Anya's pendant was broke, which is why VampWillow still remained in that dimension and was able to be brought back to ours in 'Dopplegangland.'

See above.
No, Bizzaro Sunnydale was erased when the pendant broke. It's why nobody, including Cordelia and Anya, remember what had happened in Bizzaro Sunnydale because it had never happened.

Travelling through different dimensions doesn't take a great deal of power, you just have to know what you are doing.

Summoning a demon takes greater power? Are you saying Andrew is more powerful than Anya because he can summon numerous demons?

Sure but bringing two people back from the dead doesn't. As Willow says, she doesn't even have that power.

Like I said: broken pendant makes people's hearts beat again.
And Willow's right, she wouldn't be able to bring those people back from the dead because she doesn't have a pendant.

[NileQT87]

(anya remembers bizarro sunnydale--remember, she goes in with willow trying to retrieve her pendant from it--her mind wasn't erased. she's actually the only one who remembers it.)

(here's an interesting point: did anya post-"hell's bells" even get another pendant?)

it's called metaphor. it's not literal to the jossverse. it's an allegorical/metaphorical thing. season 2 btvs was really big on that, whereas later on, the jossverse got a lot more literal.

count how often angelus wasn't called "angel" in season 2. not many. they called him "angel" to play up the bad boyfriend after sex allegory.

they played up the fallen angel goes to hell in a biblical context because that season wasn't quite written literally. it was after the fact that the 'verse got literal with specific rules. which is why we have the whole 'what is a soul?' mess.

ironically, it was the season 1 rules that they ultimately went back to with william rambling in the basement talking about dropping his slate in the water and getting a caning from the headmaster (akin to angel not knowing what happened when he first gets ensouled), plus angel's fight with angelus in "orpheus" and jasmine's talk about angelus' most hated thing is actually being forced inside of angel, unable to act. in season 1 they actually had them being completely separate beings as well. it's season 2 and the gypsies' twisted logic of who they are punishing that really screws it up.

as far as buffy was concerned, she FELT like she killed him in the way that she believed he was in hell, suffering with hot pokers (angel actually makes a side comment about his time in the "fun" hell with hot pokers and fire--and another comment that reveals he was there for 100 years) and not coming back. also, in ats, there are even more super strong biblical references like wesley compared to judas iscariot (and a discussion of dante's "inferno" with the nine rings of hell) and wesley comparing connor's impossible birth to other mythological impossible births--each one holding the possibility for either salvation (jesus christ) or destruction.

on the other side... no vampire that gets ensouled or brought back from the dead seems to remember anything. there's a nothingness for the human soul (darla's experience). the ether seems to be a limbo that is neither heaven or hell. yet, angel makes a comment to spike that the demon and perhaps whatever is attached with the body (like a human's soul on top of a demon's soul--listen to the master talk about demon souls), goes to an actual hell, rather than a limbo. so, essentially, hell for a demon is where it goes after death.

there's a huge allegoric and philosophic aspect to these shows beyond the literal side of the 'verse.

even demons weren't meant to be taken literally at first. they were an allegory for fighting life's demons (problems). angel was the wrench in that idea because they created the first "good demon". and how is he introduced? a demon named angel, with fallen angel and guardian angel attributes and described as a "demon with the face of an angel".

it is about as ironic as darla meaning "dear one"--a fact stated in the show--and the fact that liam and william are the same name in two languages (they mean "protector").

there's a whole 'nother side to the 'verse that doesn't quite deal in concrete physical concepts.

one of them is acathla's hell. it was important that buffy felt like she "killed" someone. "ted" was the precursor of that idea--and she wears the exact same baggy overalls in both episodes when she's feeling like a murderer.

[Weredog]

(anya remembers bizarro sunnydale--remember, she goes in with willow trying to retrieve her pendant from it--her mind wasn't erased. she's actually the only one who remembers it.)

No, she didn't remember it. Because in "The Wish," Bizzaro Sunnydale was only activated after Anya said "wish granted." However when the pendant broke, Anya said "wish granted" and nothing happened -- her pendant was missing. She didn't know what happened. That was why she approached Willow: to help her retrieve it (whether it was in her coat pocket, her cookie jar or in the sofe in hell.) Anya did not know where her pendant was -- all she knew was that it was missing. That's why when she told Willow "I swear, I am just trying to find my necklace" she was saying the truth. Anya only clued in that the pendant was lost in what was Bizzaro Sunnydale when she realized her spell had brought Vamp Willow rather than her necklace.

(here's an interesting point: did anya post-"hell's bells" even get another pendant?)
it's called metaphor. it's not literal to the jossverse.

No, she didn't. That's why it's a plothole. And there's no possible way this was a metaphor because her pendant was never ever served as a metaphor. What you're implying is that if hypothetically in season 3, the writers forgot that vamps could "vamp face" than you would say "oh, well, in season 1 and 2, the vamp face was a metaphor.
Anya's pendant (or lack of) is not a metaphor. You'll have to elaborate as to how that is.

as far as buffy was concerned, she FELT like she killed him in the way that she believed he was in hell,

Like I said before, why did the writers write Buffy's dialogue as if she had killed him:
Amends: "I tried to make you go away... I killed you and it didn't help."
Selfless: "I killed Angel! Do you even remember that?"
Chosen: "What was the highlight of our relationship? When you break up with me or when I killed you"

The only time (that I can think of) that the writers got it right was in "The Gift" when Buffy says "I sacrificed Angel to save the world."
That was perfectly worded as to what happened in "Becoming."

[vampmogs]

My issue isn't that Buffy thought she had killed Angel when she ran the sword through his chest.
My issue isn't that Buffy remembers how it felt like when she stabbed Angel.
My issue is that she goes on in "Amends", "Selfless" and "Chosen" saying that she killed Angel as a fact.
Amends: "I tried to make you go away... I killed you and it didn't help."
Selfless: "I killed Angel! Do you even remember that?"
Chosen: "What was the highlight of our relationship? When you break up with me or when I killed you"
For me, those were mistakes on the writers' parts.
Instead, the dialogue should've been as it was in "The Gift" when Buffy says "I sacrificed Angel to save the world." That is what happened. She did sacrifice Angel to save the world. She didn't kill him, she sacrificed him.

I guess I should've been more clear: Anya summoned a demon to rip their hearts out. With her power of course. And I'm glad you agree that it this isn't the most majestic curse she's performed.

Yeah but that isn't what she was asking to have reverted back. She never asked D'Hoffryn if he could reverse the demon she asked if he could reverse the lives of the people the demon she summoned murdered.

Yes, she can. All she had to do was break her pendant and it would've revived the frat boys. In Bizzaro Sunnydale, Buffy, Xander and Willow died. They revived when Anya's pendant broke.

Anya had no part in Willow, Xander or Buffy dying. The alternate Sunnydale existed, it is an alternate dimension. Just like the dimension with no shrimp, the land of the trolls, Pylea or any other different dimension that has been mentioned in the show. It is another dimension Anya taped into to give Cordy her wish.

Yes it did vanish. It existed for a while but then it disappeared. When Anya granted Cordelia's wish, Anya created a tangent universe, aka Bizzaro Sunnydale. She created this universe by making Buffy go to Cleveland in '97 rather than Sunnydale. This universe was then completely eliminated when the pendant broke (because the pendant was what created Bizzaro Sunnydale.)

I disagree. The pendant teleported Anya to a universe that Cordelia wished she lived in, the universe wasn't created by Anya. Giles states there are thousands of alternate dimensions, you've said yourself there are various numbers of both heavenly and hellish dimensions as well. Anya asks D'Hoffryn to "take her back to that place" meaning it still exists, she wants to go back there, she doesn't ask him to create it again. She remembers that place very well which is why she knows where her pendant is and asks Willow to help her take it back from that place with magic. In Willow's spell she sees that place but instead of bringing back the pendant brings back VampWillow in that dimension instead. It is an alternate reality. There are probably numerous Sunnydale realities out there, one with no Willow, no Xander ect.

Remember Anya knows a lot about alternate realities, she says as much in 'Blood Ties.' She knows "way more than Giles does."

In "Doppelgangland," Anya (not knowing the pendant broke in this destroyed universe) cast a spell to retrieve her pendant. Now because she was utilizing magic, she was able to reach this lost universe (which is how she got Vamp Willow.)

The universe wasn't destroyed, the universe still exists Cordy was simply taken from there. IMO, Anya transported Cordelia's mind from her body into Cordelia's body from the wish dimension. Which explains why Cordy never ran into another Cordelia in that dimension, who should have been there as she was supposed to be alive and well and still very popular.

Yes, she did. Bizzaro Sunnydale was never pre-established. Anya fooled around with history and literally made Buffy never come to Sunnydale. Ergo, Bizzaro Sunnydale. Now when her pendant broke, Anya's hard work got erased and we returned to Regular Sunnydale.

Or it was always there and Anya simply placed Cordy in that dimension. I don't understand why you're so against the idea of this reality already being existant? Especially when it has been stated so many times on the show there are thousands of different realities out there. As for example the world without shrimp, everything is the same but without shrimp. Especially when Anya remembers that place, manages to go back to that place through a spell and VampWillow comes from that place which couldn't have happened if that reality had been destroyed, Willow teleports her back to that place which is further evidence it still existed.

No, Bizzaro Sunnydale was erased when the pendant broke. It's why nobody, including Cordelia and Anya, remember what had happened in Bizzaro Sunnydale because it had never happened.

As I've already stated, Anya remembers it and D'Hoffryn knows about it as well. Even Xander says to VampWillow "in your reality I'm like some bad ass vampire huh? People afraid of me? Oh yeah I'm bad" The show has made an effort to see it as a different reality, heck even the characters say it and treat it as a different existing place.

Summoning a demon takes greater power? Are you saying Andrew is more powerful than Anya because he can summon numerous demons?

No but that isn't what you are asking Anya to do by smashing her pendant. You are asking for twelve bodies to come back to life, something both Willow and D'Hoffryn state takes great power. And Willow is more powerful than Anya, if she can't do it Anya can't do it.

Like I said: broken pendant makes people's hearts beat again.
And Willow's right, she wouldn't be able to bring those people back from the dead because she doesn't have a pendant.

Ok, if it was that simple they would have done it. I'm looking at what has been stated in the show here. Which is that such a task isn't easily done and the fates require a sacrifice. D'Hoffryn states as much, I personally think it makes sense, so I'm going to stick with the show and accept it at face value on this one.

No, she didn't remember it. Because in "The Wish," Bizzaro Sunnydale was only activated after Anya said "wish granted." However when the pendant broke, Anya said "wish granted" and nothing happened -- her pendant was missing. She didn't know what happened. That was why she approached Willow: to help her retrieve it (whether it was in her coat pocket, her cookie jar or in the sofe in hell.) Anya did not know where her pendant was -- all she knew was that it was missing. That's why when she told Willow "I swear, I am just trying to find my necklace" she was saying the truth. Anya only clued in that the pendant was lost in what was Bizzaro Sunnydale when she realized her spell had brought Vamp Willow rather than her necklace.

Yes she did. Anya asks D'Hoffryn at the start of that episode to "take her back to that place." She knows exactly where the pendant is, she just can't get there herself without any powers.

She approached Willow because without her power source Anya couldn't get to that dimension, she knew Willow was a witch and therefore came to her to use her power instead. She was lying to Willow, she knew where the pendant was. Do you honestly think she is going to tell Willow the truth? That she sent Cordy to another dimension and planned on making her stay there? And she wants her necklace back to be a demon so that she can harm other people again? I mean c'mon.

[Andrew]

About Buffy killing Angel.

The writers didn't forget that Buffy sent Angel to hell. There are two reasons for why they wrote what they wrote. Saying "I ran you through with a sword and sent you to a hell dimension" is a hell of a lot longer than "I killed you". The emotional impact of the Buffy's actions would be lost with an overly specific quote.

In fact, in the Selfless quote, Buffy is most probably referring to the decision she made at the time. For all she knew, Angel would die when she sent him through the portal and she made the choice to kill him.

Anya's pendant simply wasn't convenient for the writer's. A piece of backstory from 4 seasons ago (albeit mentioned in S6) shouldn't get in the way of the telling of their story. You could quickly fanwank an explanation anyway. Perhaps Anya wanted a more permanent demonic transformation or D'Hoffryn bound her powers to her body instead to prevent her from losing her powers again.

[vampmogs]

Anya's pendant simply wasn't convenient for the writer's. A piece of backstory from 4 seasons ago (albeit mentioned in S6) shouldn't get in the way of the telling of their story. You could quickly fanwank an explanation anyway. Perhaps Anya wanted a more permanent demonic transformation or D'Hoffryn bound her powers to her body instead to prevent her from losing her powers again.

I could even wank it as saying that the pendant was an old form of creating vengeance demons but the newer demons were created a different way. From everything we've seen and heard about D'Hoffryn's order it seems to run a lot like a business funnily enough.

D'Hoffryn even implies they may have office cubicles in some way when he talks about one of his workers having a sketch of Willow flaying Warren on their wall. Or at least that is how I interpreted and imagined what he was saying, I guess everyone is going to interpret that differently. Anya also states how she has to draw up a flight plan before teleporting after abusing her privileges a couple of weeks before. The girls often describe it as "work." IMO, it isn't out of the question that as times went on methods changed for creating new vengeance demons. Like Anya, Halfrek was a very old vengeance demon. I suspect that the newer demons were created in a different way after they realised placing all of their power in the pendant wasn't the greatest idea.

[EndersWrath]

Like I said: broken pendant makes people's hearts beat again.
And Willow's right, she wouldn't be able to bring those people back from the dead because she doesn't have a pendant.

The thing that you are interpretting wrong is what the pendant actually did. The Pendant didn't kill those guys, the demon that was summoned from the pendant did. So the only thing that destroying the pendant would do is take the demon away, not restore all of the chaos that it did.

In 'The Wish' all that Anya did was send Cordelia to an alternate dimension, like Jenni Lou said, there are lots and lots of different dimensions, so Anya simply sent Cordelia to one where Buffy never came to Sunnydale. When Giles destroyed the pendant all it did was reverse Cordelia going to that dimension.

[vampmogs]

In 'The Wish' all that Anya did was send Cordelia to an alternate dimension, like Jenni Lou said, there are lots and lots of different dimensions, so Anya simply sent Cordelia to one where Buffy never came to Sunnydale. When Giles destroyed the pendant all it did was reverse Cordelia going to that dimension.

I agree. Which also explains why Cordy never came face to face with alternate reality Cordelia which she should have seeing that she bumped into her group in the highschool. IMO, Anya sent Cordy's mind to the other dimension, not herself. Which also explains why Cordy didn't stay dead after Xander and Willow killed her, because her actual body was still living in our Sunnydale.