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"No you don't.. but thanks for saying it.."- The Spuffy Remonstration

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  • "No you don't.. but thanks for saying it.."- The Spuffy Remonstration

    Well.. it's been while ever since BW that I've seen this thread.. so I thought I'd pick up and dust it off..

    I'd say one of the most controversial debates in the Buffyverse is whether or not Buffy meant what she said when Spike was dying... There are two arguments that I have seen laid out:

    1. Buffy meant what she said.. you can see it clearly in her eyes, and after all that has happened, she truly began to realize how much she had fallen for this guy. Her nomination of him as a champion, their desire for eachother before the battle, and his place in "Buffy's heart" all pertain to the fact that Buffy had realized at that moment that she had loved him.. His death brought it out of her, and their bonding (fiery hands) proves this.

    2. Buffy wasn't in love with Spike, she had grown to like him very much as a person.. but even with a soul she hadn't "loved" him. Her statement was more of an appreciation and gratitude, rather than a true fact. She was trying to make him feel better, but Spike had seen through her eyes he's always been good at reading people.. and he acknowledges this. They were very close with eachother, but she never had the love for him as he did for her.

    -----------------------------------------

    Which one do you tend to agree with? Do you believe that Buffy truly loved Spike? Or are you on Spike's side that Buffy didn't love him.. ?
    103
    Yes
    58.25%
    60
    No
    41.75%
    43
    Last edited by Nostalgia; 09-12-07, 05:33 AM.
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  • #2
    I don't think she was in love with him. I think two things on this:
    • Buffy wanted him to know how much he did mean to her, and wanted to let him know in the way that would mean the most to him.
    • Buffy never actually had to really evaluate her feelings when making this announcement, because she knew she was saying the words to a dying man. I'm not saying it was devoid of emotion, but there's a certain way in which you can analogize it to Illyria in "Not Fade Away" -- the point isn't even always to feel the thing as to make it believed.
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    • #3
      I think she loved him, but she wasn't in love with him.
      He became some kind of friend for her. She could talk to him when she couldn't talk to her friends. He admired and almost worshipped her, and I think she needed that in a time she couldn't like herself. I don't want to say that she loved him like she loved Willow and Xander, but I think she loved Spike.

      But I don't think she was in love with him. If she was, she would never have kissed Angel in EoD. Actually I think the whole Angel thing showed the difference between her feelings for Spike and her feelings for Angel. Buffy glowed when she saw Angel, her face was for the first time in 2 seasons really shiny.

      I think she wanted to return the devotion and love Spike gave her, but I don't think she could. And I think Spike knew that also after he saw Buffy's face when Angel was there. I don't say that it's not possible that Buffy would fall in love with Spike, but I don't think she was in love with him at that moment.

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      • #4
        Well my answer is surely colored by my Spuffy bias - however I did vote that she loved him.

        I believe it was more than just sending a dying man off with happy wishes, because he had meant quite a lot to her and she showed this throughout S7 defending his place in the ranks as her "right hand man". -

        - The biggest proof was her forgiveness of the AR in Seeing Red.
        - She showed concern for his well-being when he was hurt.
        - She told him she was not ready to be without him.
        - She defended his right to rip the throat out of Robin. (and I know I'm in the minority with that thought - but hey - it's my job.)
        - Same thing with Giles.
        - She trusted him enough with his new soul to go to Riley for help to remove the chip.
        - And when she needed strength and solace the most he was there for her and she allowed him to be that strength.
        - She also made it plain that it had meant something to her afterwards because she wanted it to mean something to him afterwards - resulting in the "best night of my life" speech.
        - She told Angel that Spike had a place in her heart. And referred to him as boyfriend.

        There was love there - more than friendship. And Spike - not believing that he could ever deserve the love of the Slayer as long as he "un-lives" declares that she doesn't.
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        • #5
          I didn't vote because I never can make up my mind about this. I'd like to think that she was in love with Spike for at least the last half of season 7 (most obvious thing being the way she looked at him when she rescued him from the First), but that she didn't come to realize it until that last moment on the Hellmouth.

          At a minimum, she certainly had strong feelings for him -- nor were they of the purely platonic variety. And I think it is dead obvious that he had a special place in her heart... as just about every character noticed one way or another.

          But it's also possible that she really was just cookie dough all the way through, and wasn't really able to be "in love" with anybody at that point, however special they might be to her.

          I don't much like any story about that last moment that involves her consciously lying to him, however kindly meant. But I am willing to believe that the ILY was a way of expressing strong feelings, but feelings which aren't purely romantic in character.
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          • #6
            Too lazy to go the whole nine yards at the moment, so I'll limit myself to a few points. Emphasis mine:

            - "What I basically told [Sarah and James] was: Play the romance. Love him when you say you love him. Love her when you say she doesn't love you." (Joss Whedon)

            - "Why does everyone in this house think I'm still in love with Spike?" (Buffy)

            - Spike/Buffy Love Theme, by Robert Duncan.

            - "I had a lot of structural juggling to do to figure out how to make sense of the two most important men in Buffy's life showing up at once." (Joss Whedon re: Spike and Angel)

            So yeah. It's luuuuuuv.

            (set made by Francy for me)

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            • #7
              Personally, I analyze product first, production second, sorta like there was a horse that ran second to Secretariat

              I've argued elsewhere that it's at least *plausible* that the direction to Sarah was intended to obtain the resultant ambiguity that at least a big number of the fan base read into the "I love you". As in, he knew Sarah herself wasn't into the 'ship, so he reasoned that telling her to give him ambiguity would yield a reading of "I totally don't really love you". Kinda like how they had Marsters play "Two to Go" and "Grave" with the belief he was getting his chip out.

              Isn't Marsters on record as not thinking Buffy meant it? Or is that just the Method's opinion?

              My first impression of the line... when I was much friendlier toward Spuffy than I've become... I thought she wasn't in love with him but truly, truly wished she was and wanted more than anything for him to believe it, and that he answered thusly because he wanted to make sure she didn't convince herself and then have to go on without him. A more noirish romance, but romance all the same.
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              • #8
                i believed she truly did care about him, but she wasn't in love with him. and i have to go by the actors conscious decision to go against joss here. joss wanted them to play it as they believed it, and james and sarah decided to go with what they believed about the characters--playing it as buffy truly deeply cares about him, but lies to him because it is what he wants to hear. and spike, while that seems to be what he wanted more than anything for many years--to the point that he lied to himself that she loved him, at the end he refuses to take a lie as he is dying (the opposite of wesley).

                another thought is that she loved him, but he didn't believe it. and we know that he doesn't believe it because it was the very reason he didn't go to her when he corporealized on ats. he makes it quite clear that he is afraid that if he did go back, he was afraid she hadn't meant it. he doubts it.

                i think buffy does love both angel and spike, but not in the same way. just the same as she loves her mother, sister and friends. there are many different kinds of love.

                and it is quite known that sarah and james have very different interpretations of that scene (and acted it on purpose) than was intended by joss--who actually comments that they didn't play it like he wanted it.

                the crux is that angel and spike are jealous of each other over the kinds of relationships they got with her. angel got her love, but couldn't be with her. spike could be with her, but doesn't believe she loved him.

                and for the record--james prefers spike/drusilla and thinks buffy loves angel. he is on record as saying that spuffy is lust and that bangel was true love. sarah also prefers buffy/angel.
                Last edited by NileQT87; 09-12-07, 01:34 AM.

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                • #9
                  James doesn't believe Buffy meant it, and although he had gone off the Method by Chosen, I'm pretty sure that's Spike talking. James was married to a woman who didn't love him back, as he tells it, and Spike also doubted Buffy's feelings in Season 7, what with all his self-loathing, so it's no surprise that James would feel that way. Near impossible to get objectivity from actors.

                  Joss did say that James and Sarah had trouble getting into the scene, but he also said that, in the end, "their work is tremendous", implied that "they gave him gold", and that "the audience will be there, because he was".

                  James doesn't prefer Spike/Dru. That one's certainly the "politically correct" answer, and he's very flighty about his opinions, but in 2003, when given the choice between Buffy and Dru, he said "definitely Buffy".
                  Last edited by Enisy; 09-12-07, 01:41 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Joss did say that James and Sarah had trouble getting into the scene, but he also said that, in the end, "their work is tremendous", implied that "they gave him gold", and that "the audience will be there, because he was".
                    Last scene of last televised episode, I can't imagine he'd go on record with "... dammit, my sucky actors blew the moment"

                    Check you out dropping the Marsters knowledge, though. Didn't know that. Spike-fu.

                    What I *don't* think is that what I call ambiguity has anything to do with Angel. I believe Buffy when she says it was just 'hello', I believe her when she says "years... if ever", and I mostly think the sometimes thing was just to be polite.
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                    • #11
                      Yeah James thought it was clear that Buffy loved Angel. But I'm with Maggie here, I really can't make up my mind. Joss seems to like confusing us with this love triangle.
                      I voted yes, because I'm pretty sure she did mean it.. on most levels.. and it was kinda great when he let her off the hook. I wouldn't change that moment or the relationship in the series, why not let them have that moment even if it can't work out.
                      Seems a shame though if there's always going to be that conflict with who is the real true love.. or who is the truest.
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                      • #12
                        King, do you think Joss would let them go without getting at least one non-sucky shot of the last scene of the last televised episode? They can't suck that bad.

                        James hasn't commented on his ex-wife in the context of Spuffy, but he's said so many times that the Spike/Buffy stuff is what "cuts the closest" that I can't not make the connection.

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                        • #13
                          You can't honestly believe that a writer, director and producer would turn up to make the finale episode and say to his actors/actresses 'act as you feel'

                          Buffy loved Spike, but she wasn't in love with him like she was with Angel in season 2/3. But that love with a naive innocent love that once it's past is never reborn. She trusts Spike above anyone else and she cares and depends on him.

                          I know Sarah prefered making out with David than she did with James but no way that would have been allowed to affect the final scene between Spike and Buffy. It was meant to be left like that. Buffy saying it because she did love him. Spike saying she didn't because he didn't want to die breaking her heart like Angel did. It was the champions way of dealing with this situation.

                          Of course both Sarah and James would have had trouble with that scene. Acting is about drawing on emotions and how can anyone imagine the emotions you would have in that experience. Plus the finale was emotional time for everyone dispite what the rumours are about Sarah. It's nothing to do with them thinking the characters didn't love each other. Everything from episode 5-6 that season shows they did.

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                          • #14
                            King, do you think Joss would let them go without getting at least one non-sucky shot of the last scene of the last televised episode? They can't suck that bad.
                            But, again, maybe the ambiguity is what he was after? Look at the poll results ("It's got sharp... it can leap about... look at the bones!"). Can a completely non-scientific poll of 18 Buffy fans be wrong?

                            I know Sarah prefered making out with David than she did with James but no way that would have been allowed to affect the final scene between Spike and Buffy. It was meant to be left like that. Buffy saying it because she did love him. Spike saying she didn't because he didn't want to die breaking her heart like Angel did. It was the champions way of dealing with this situation.
                            The "Sarah prefers making out with David" thing just reminds me how seriously unfair it was that Buffy and Xander never got a kiss on screen... not even a dream kiss or spell kiss! Off-topic, but just... just bastardy!

                            I agree, though, Spike was a real mensch answering that way, whether he believed her, didn't believe her, whatever.
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                            • #15
                              uh, koc--there are a few things that mess up the post before your last.

                              1) andrew (lousy source) said that buffy does love both angel and spike. didn't specify how. feelings were there at least a year later for both.

                              2) buffy apparently has naughty nurse dreams/thoughts that include both spike and angel still--many years after both relationships have been over. she even made a comment about the possibility of there being oil involved. it's a joke, but it certainly makes it clear she still thinks about them actively. notice riley didn't make the panel.

                              3) there's also the way that picture is drawn that is incredibly telling. angel has his arms around buffy possessively and they are facing each other. spike is not very close to buffy. he's touching her on the thigh and she's pulling his head towards her, but his head is separated and he's looking away.

                              (ok, i've heard way too much about art symbology... but it's something to consider. because you are trying to portray a feeling in a single image instead of a moving picture, the symbology allows feelings to be portrayed subtly. in fact, i think that picture says a LOT about what spike feels about his relationship with buffy.)

                              *edit* another thing about the threesome panel... not only is she wearing the claddaugh... she is wearing the cross necklace as well! that just dawned on me.
                              Last edited by NileQT87; 09-12-07, 02:13 AM.

                              "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                              "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                But, again, maybe the ambiguity is what he was after? Look at the poll results ("It's got sharp... it can leap about... look at the bones!"). Can a completely non-scientific poll of 18 Buffy fans be wrong?
                                Of course the ambiguity is what Joss was after. This is the guy who said "the most important shot in the show", to him, is Spike and Buffy's fade-to-black last night together, "because it really shows the mystery of their relationship". But I think she meant it, and I think he thinks she meant it, too.

                                (set made by Francy for me)

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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                  The "Sarah prefers making out with David" thing just reminds me how seriously unfair it was that Buffy and Xander never got a kiss on screen... not even a dream kiss or spell kiss! Off-topic, but just... just bastardy!

                                  I agree, though, Spike was a real mensch answering that way, whether he believed her, didn't believe her, whatever.
                                  Chemistry of actors really makes a difference. I find watching Bangel that their kiss are really passionate whereas with Spuffy it's acting.. good acting though. I don't ever see any chemistry between Sarah and Nick nor Buffy and Xander which is possibly why it never went that way. Whereas with comics they can go further with that possiblilty if they want.

                                  The closest Bander ever got was B,B & B and that was so fake I'm laughing at it. So that works as the closest they got to kissing!

                                  I believe Spike did believe Buffy loved him, but he knew that wasn't the time to get into the whole I love you forever speech. He became a champion, when it's not about love, it's about what you do.

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                                  • #18
                                    I didn't say she didn't love him in some meaning of the word (Angel), just that I don't think she seriously has any intentions of being with him again.

                                    I do think, however, that whether she meant she was "in love" with Spike or not, had he walked out of the Hellmouth with her, they'd have gone on for at least the immediate future as a romantic couple.

                                    As a complete aside, it's worth noting that there really wasn't a plan in place that would have allowed Spike to survive that battle. There was nowhere to retreat to other than daylight, and running out of the building, and into a *school bus* (big with the windows), odds of him getting his hands on his blanket again were not great.

                                    I really think Buffy gave, at best, an answer (and it was an answer, since the question had been implicitly asked for a while, including in "End of Days") that she knew she wasn't going to have to account for later. So, even if she really thought she meant it at the time, is it even possible to make a truly lucid, truly committed declaration in those circumstances?

                                    As for Buffy and Season 8 and dreams,
                                    Spoiler:
                                    it's more telling that she dreams of kissing Xander without having needed Ethan to pull a curtain open to embarrass her with her fantasy


                                    I don't ever see any chemistry between Sarah and Nick nor Buffy and Xander which is possibly why it never went that way.
                                    Give the actors some credit for some kind of personal chemistry, since they both were lobbying to get their characters together. I don't think they'd be particularly professional in pushing for something they didn't think they could sell the audience. Also, I'd argue that the closest they came to a kiss was "Phases"... I'll put the avatar back up
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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                      The "Sarah prefers making out with David" thing just reminds me how seriously unfair it was that Buffy and Xander never got a kiss on screen... not even a dream kiss or spell kiss! Off-topic, but just... just bastardy!
                                      I know! I want to see some Bander smooches.
                                      Spoiler:
                                      I suppose we finally got some in s8, but not the same.

                                      I also noticed how Buffy is favouring Angel in the 3some embrace, it's been talked a lot about on various boards. Although mostly I just find it amusing.. with the exploding volcano and not so subtle symbolism. Angel appears a bit possesive with his stare.. but it is Buffy's dream so can't blame him for that.

                                      Anyway why doesn't anyone talk about the Xander/Buffy moment! I was thinking they might have had some kind of involvement previously we don't know about, or she is just starting to think of him in a more romantic way. Everyone wants to analyze the Spike/Angel dream, but sort of ready to wave off any hidden meanings in the Bander scene. Wrong thread and forum for this discussion I guess.
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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Nikki View Post
                                        Chemistry of actors really makes a difference. I find watching Bangel that their kiss are really passionate whereas with Spuffy it's acting.. good acting though.
                                        It's acting in both cases. James has gone on record as saying that he was really kissing Sarah at first, and what happens with the lips when you get into it is not very pretty to watch, so Sarah had to tip him on how to kiss for the camera (something she's well-versed in, obviously). And I probably just ruined all the Angel/Buffy and Spike/Buffy kissing scenes for you, but 'tis the truth.

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