Spike's quest on the end of season 6.

[Nina]

We all know that the writers wanted him to win his soul back, and that was the plan from he start. When I saw those interviews, I was like; What? I thought he wanted to get the chip out of his head! She rejected him and I thought that he wanted to get the chip out so he could hurt Dawn, Xander or something like that, to hurt Buffy.

I don't understand why Spike wanted his soul back, he saw what a soul did to Angelus. I know that soulless Spike 'loved' Buffy, but when he was on his trip I didn't really felt the love. And I don't know, but is wanting a soul not a really odd thing for one of the most dangerous and vicious vampires ever? It's not like he didn't knew what a soul could do to a vampire. I know he believed that Angel was a wuss, but I can't believe that he thought that Angelus (Who is Angel - soul) was a softy.

Was I the only one who believed Spike never wanted his soul, but his chip out? You know, until the interviews.

[bishopcruz]

Nah, you aren't the only one. This has gone over the net many a time. And it goes down as one of the show's worst executed plot-twists. Spike's dialogue just doesn't make him actually getting a soul flow well from the story. It could have, with a better use of ambiguity, but it really really didn't. I KNOW it was what was intended, and honestly going to Africa to get a chip out makes no sense when you think about it, but the acting and dialog made it the worst kind of GOTCHA plot twist.

[Enisy]

Spike explained why, didn't he?

Buffy: Why? Why would you do...?
Spike: Buffy, shame on you. Why does a man do what he mustn't? For her. To be hers. To be the kind of man who would nev-- to be a kind of man.

You get hints of that as early as "Seeing Red", when Spike is talking to Clem in his crypt, hating himself (according to both Gershman's direction and DeKnight's shooting script) for hurting Buffy, deciding to change things to prevent it from ever happening again. In the following episodes, the dialogue is deliberately vague for the sake of the plot twist, but there's nothing there that can only be read as Spike wanting to remove the chip. "Bitch is gonna see a change": delivered in the sense of "I can't believe I'm doing this for her, so she'd better appreciate it". "Make me what I was, so Buffy can get what she deserves": meaning a lover with a soul, as Jane Espenson pointed out. And so on.

And frankly, it would have made no sense for Spike to want the chip out; he could hurt Buffy as he was, the chip didn't work on her. After "Beneath You" and Joss Whedon's/Jane Espenson's/David Fury's interviews on the subject, I can see no reason for anyone to believe that other than to diminish Spike's arguably most heroic act.

[Nina]

That is my problem with the writing, I really don't understand why Spike would get his soul. I always believed that him wanting to get the chip out of his head made more sense. Like I said, I always thought he wanted to get the chip out so he could hurt the people around Buffy.

But a soul? He knew what a soul did to Angelus, and he wasn't that stupid to think that a soul can make her love him. Every normal guy on the world has a soul. Buffy loves Angel because of who he is, not because he has a soul.
Spike is besides Angelus, the most vicious vampire ever, he was worse as Darla, Penn or any other vampire. Spike loved to kill and torture, I can't see him hating himself for raping Buffy or hurting her. And I can't see him giving that up for enything or anybody. Besides a soul is a high price to get in some girl her pants. I can't believe it, and those interviews were a big suprise for me. In the scene's you quoted I can see now the hints ... but still ...

[Enisy]

But a soul? He knew what a soul did to Angelus, and he wasn't that stupid to think that a soul can make her love him. Every normal guy on the world has a soul. Buffy loves Angel because of who he is, not because he has a soul.

I don't believe he sought his soul out so Buffy would love him. As I see it, "Seeing Red" and "Beneath You" point to Spike doing it so he wouldn't hurt her again. He says it himself: "To be the kind of man who would never --"

Spike is besides Angelus, the most vicious vampire ever, he was worse as Darla, Penn or every other vampire. Spike loved to kill and torture, I can't see him hating himself for raping Buffy or hurting her.

Buffy: Because you don't lie, or cheat, or steal, or manipulate --
Spike: I don't hurt you.

That's Spike's self-imposed boundary, and he crossed it big time in "Seeing Red". Gershman's direction is very faithful to DeKnight's shooting script in the Spike/Clem scene, where DeKnight specifies that Spike is "hating himself", that his "self-loathing hits an all-time low".

And a soul is a hugh price to get in some girls pants.

Angel's interpretation. Not exactly the most objective source when it comes to Spike and his relationship with Buffy. Taking into account that Spike made zero sexual advances to Buffy through the course of Season 7, he couldn't have come up with a falser accusation.

[sueworld]

Yes, it was crap writing, but I always 'fan wanked it' by seeing it as Spike finally realising after his attack on Buffy in the bathroom that he didn't have any moral compass to guide him.

He had completly misread Buffy's actions back there and realised that he needed a soul to 'guide him'.

[Enisy]

That's not fanwanking. That's exactly what happened. The writers just tried to make a plot twist out of it.

[Nina]

So Spike didn't want Buffy to love him, not to have sex with her ... just not hurt her anymore? I don't know if I buy that, Spike is a soulless demon. Doesn't vampires love to hurt and isn't hurting a slayer one of the greatest things in their unlife? It's just unnatural for a soulless vampire to torture himself so he doesn't hurt a slayer anymore. He shows his love with hurting 'his' woman, he is going to torture Dru until she loves him again.

I always used the fanwank that Spike is a 'special' vampire who is more human as the other vampires. But I don't really believe that one.

[Enisy]

What happened in the bathroom is not the kind of pain Spike gets off on. There's a reason there are safewords in S&M.

[Nina]

I guess the pain thing wasn't a good argument, altough you can argue if vampirelove the same is as S&M. I can see vampires really hurt eachother without any kind of joy for the 'victim'.

But IMO it's still against his nature to fight for his soul so he can be the man Buffy deserves. It would be nice if the writers would be more consistant in their writing of Spike's persona. And that is where I have problems with the writing of Spike's quest. If this happened in season 5 I would believe Spike if he wanted his soul to win Buffy's love. But after some season 6 episodes, I thought that Spike finally showed why he is so dangerous and that he is the child of Angelus until the 'Oh noes, I almost raped Buffy' guilt and the 'let's get a soul, so Buffy gets what she deserved' plan. I would love to have Spike as the big bad in season 7, I love him bad.

edit:
Just to make sure:
It's the writing I don't like, not the character.

[Enisy]

I guess the pain thing wasn't a good argument, altough you can argue if vampirelove the same is as S&M. I can see vampires really hurt eachother without any kind of joy for the 'victim'.

Darla: That's good. You're hurting me. That's good, too.

But IMO it's still against his nature to fight for his soul so he can be the man Buffy deserves. It would be nice if the writers would be more consistant in their writing of Spike's persona. And that is where I have problems with the writing of Spike's quest. If this happened in season 5 I would believe Spike if he wanted his soul to win Buffy's love. But after some season 6 episodes, I thought that Spike finally showed why he is so dangerous and that he is the child of Angelus until the 'Oh noes, I almost raped Buffy' guilt and the 'let's get a soul, so Buffy gets what she deserved' plan.

The change in Spike's demeanor around "Smashed" was no inconsistency; it had very specific causes. (For one, Buffy went from treating him like a man in Season 5 -- "S: I know that I'm a monster. But you treat me like a man, and that's..." -- to treating him like a monster in Season 6 -- "B: You're not a man. You're a thing." -- and at the same time showing signs of attraction to the monster she constantly reminded him he was. Can't blame a soulless vamp for getting mixed signals. For another thing, he found a "hook" for Buffy in his assumption that she "came back wrong", and used that to try to pull her in the dark with him.) At the end of the day, he's still the same guy who "saved her every night", and yeah, it's perfectly in-character for him to hate himself for the bathroom incident, and to seek out his soul for Buffy's sake.

I would love to have Spike as the big bad in season 7, I love him bad.

Spoiler:

Considering what a fit fans are throwing over Spike's alleged contemplation of changing sides in Angel: After the Fall, even after Brian Lynch's reassurance that he's not going to turn evil, I'd say your view is not shared by the majority.

[sueworld]

I would love to have Spike as the big bad in season 7, I love him bad

And to be honest I think thats 'coloring' your view of the character in this somewhat. I personally think Spike had finally reached a turning point in seeing red where as he said he couldn't be a monster, and yet he wasn't a man'. He thought, (maybe naively I don't know) that obtaining a soul would push him forward somehow, and maybe show Buffy that he could be a better man.

I think he was genuinely shocked by what he had attempted to do, and it really made him sit up and take notice as to what it really meant to be 'souless' I think he wanted to somehow make amends and show her that through obtaining a soul that A) he was truly sorry for what he had tried to do, and B) that he could be a better man for her.

[Nina]

I guess you both are right, I'm not completely objective. I didn't like the chosen storyline for Spike and how it turned out.
And maybe it's my subjective view that I just can't make amends with the whole 'Spike felt sorry' storyline.

I believe he can feel sorry and that he scared himself, but I'm not sure that was the real reason for the soul. He said stuff about Buffy why I can't believe him about him wanting a soul for her. Not just the whole bad plot-twist. But also the reasons for him wanting his soul back.

And I know that Angel isn't the greatest source if it's about Spike, but I think his 'You fought for your soul to get in her pants' far more believable than the romantizised 'I wanted to be a better man for her'. It fits IMO more with the myth of the vampires.

[sueworld]

And I know that Angel isn't the greatest source if it's about Spike, but I think his 'You fought for your soul to get in her pants' far more believable than the romantizised 'I wanted to be a better man for her'. It fits IMO more with the myth of the vampires.

Well in this instance I think a man called Joss Whedon would beg to differ. *g*

[Enisy]

Well, you have to remember that not all vampires are as inhuman as Angelus. Many (if not most) of them can feel jealousy and pain and love and regret. I mean, we even had another soulless vampire as a cast regular -- Harmony -- and she looked like a promising case for a while there.

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by Nina
That is my problem with the writing, I really don't understand why Spike would get his soul. I always believed that him wanting to get the chip out of his head made more sense. Like I said, I always thought he wanted to get the chip out so he could hurt the people around Buffy.

But a soul? He knew what a soul did to Angelus, and he wasn't that stupid to think that a soul can make her love him. Every normal guy on the world has a soul. Buffy loves Angel because of who he is, not because he has a soul.
Spike is besides Angelus, the most vicious vampire ever, he was worse as Darla, Penn or any other vampire. Spike loved to kill and torture, I can't see him hating himself for raping Buffy or hurting her. And I can't see him giving that up for enything or anybody. Besides a soul is a high price to get in some girl her pants. I can't believe it, and those interviews were a big surprise for me. In the scene's you quoted I can see now the hints ... but still ...

Really? I don't find it out of character once so ever. We all know Spike is a romantic, and I think it is very out of character to say that Spike would want to have his chip back to hurt the people around Buffy. That's making it seem as if his love for Buffy wasn't real, and that his whole purpose was just to get in her pants.. which is clearly proven wrong by things he's done in the past and speeches he's made. Whether or not Spike loved to kill and torture is beside the point.. that was a completely different Spike.. one, he didn't have a chip.. and two.. he wasn't in love with Buffy. Buffy completely changed Spike in terms of becoming a different person. It's shown that he's been inclined to resort to his old ways when Buffy rejects him.. but he still was a much different person compared to the one that he was in the 1800's.

Originally Posted by Nina
Spike is besides Angelus, the most vicious vampire ever, he was worse as Darla, Penn or every other vampire. Spike loved to kill and torture, I can't see him hating himself for raping Buffy or hurting her.

This is where I'm really caught off guard. If Spike didn't feel bad for what he had done.. that would be the most out of character thing Joss had ever done.... even worse than Willow dating Kennedy. Spike loved Buffy.. she meant more to him than anything he ever knew (he confesses this in Touched.) He never meant to rape her in the AR scene, he wouldn't have such pain and remorse for it after in the crypt following scene. He was out of control, and wanted her to love him so bad that he almost was in a crazed state. Not to take any wrongness from the deed, but he certainly wasn't trying to hurt Buffy in any way. Spike hasn't wanted to hurt Buffy since "Out of My Mind."

Spike never really knew what the soul did to Angel.. he actually didn't realize he even had one until "School Hard..", so it's never really shown that Spike knew what the soul had done to him.

As for the "regular people having souls" debate.. yes.. everyone has a soul.. but Buffy wasn't in an intimate relationship with everyone. Other than that, Spike never wanted to soul for himself.. he wanted it specifically so Buffy wouldn't have a person in her life that would attempt to rape her.

I don't see how this is OOC at all, considering we know Spike has been a semi-good person for a long time now. You're making drastic comparisons to his viscous persona back to season 2.. but Spike from season 6 and Spike from season 2 are completely different people. The reason I appreciate James so much is because he has played so many different types of Spike.. ranging from evil, bitter, heartbroken, lustful, and noble.

[Enisy]

Spike never really knew what the soul did to Angel..

Mmhmm. He even says so in Beneath You: "Angel... he should have told me..."

[KingofCretins]

In hindsight, I think we can say that it was a mistake not to tell James Marsters what Spike was up to. He took his performance *very* emphatically in the "get chip out, solve emotional conflict by becoming enemies again" direction. And they went ahead and shot it. As a result, it makes the "no, he really wanted his soul" fact more confusing than revelatory. If he had known the truth, and been given careful notes, he is more than actor enough to have attenuated his performance to make it much more ambiguous.

[Nostalgia]

I wouldn't want him to act as if he knew what the ending was.. that was the beauty of it.. no one knew.. and that's why is was such a great plot twist. It was a surprise.. I don't want any hints at all.. I want to be surprised.

[KingofCretins]

I wouldn't want him to act as if he knew what the ending was.. that was the beauty of it.. no one knew.. and that's why is was such a great plot twist. It was a surprise.. I don't want any hints at all.. I want to be surprised.

If there's not a fair chance to get it right, it's not a good mystery. If you weren't spoiled, does *any* line reading lend itself to the interpretation he's getting his soul back until he gets it? I remember recaps written at the time were treating it as though the demon had double-crossed him.