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***Nina*** · 02-12-07, 01:17 PM

Oeh, I love Amends.

Angel's Suicide:
I agree with Buffy, fighting is everyday and waiting for the sun isn't the right way. But if Angel really couldn't control himself, he made the right choice. I think the FE had too much power over him on that moment, and Angel wasn't really bright. Leaving was a much better decision as commit suicide, but on that moment Angel thought he was only made for evil. And he was protecting others from himself. BTW I think Angel's suicide is a much better thing as Spike asking Buffy to kill him. You can't ask somebody else to kill you because you're too weak to go on. It's not fair for the other.

Who created the snow/brought Angel back?
I agree with you vampmogs, the PTB brought him back because he was their champion and Jasmine who was still a PTB on that moment wanted him to have a child, she planned everything so why not the return of the father of her father.

Buffy's Speech:
I loved her speech and I agree with her. I think she really believed what she said, it wasn't some lie to keep Angel with her. It's sad she forget herself about it in the end.

Did you enjoy this episode?
I don't like cheesy moments, but I loved the snow thing. Amends was for a long time my favourite episode, just for the speech and snow. The FE was really dangerous and Angel learned maybe the greatest lesson in his life.
I like the moment in which we see a drunk Liam fall on the groud. It's so funny.

But the Irish accent and the wigs should die. And the moustage, the moustage of Angelus is evil.

**Weredog** · 02-12-07, 11:54 PM

Angel's Suicide:

From Angel's point of view, I can see why he would have killed himself. He, literally, was too weak to fight the First's seductions, which ultimately were his own seductions. Angel was about an inch away from killing Buffy in her bedroom, so his suicide (had he killed himself) would have been noble on his part.

PS. You know what really grinds my gears? When the writers have the characters say in episodes such as "Bring on the Night" and "Chosen" that The First tried to make Angel commit suicide. The First did not! He tried to make Angel kill Buffy, not kill himself!

Who created the snow/brought Angel back?

Santa Clause.
No, really, I have no clue. Does Joss know?

Buffy's Speech:

Buffy's speech was spot on about life. The speech more or less mirrors the one in "The Gift" ("Strong is fighting. It's hard and it's painful and it's everyday" / "You have to be strong. The hardest thing to do in this world is to live in it.")
And I will tackle anyone who says that Buffy's death was suicidal. No, it was not. It was sacrificial. Two completely different intentions.

Did you enjoy this episode?

When I first watched this episode back in '98 when I was nine, I went to
bed with the biggest butterfly-like-gut-wrenching-Christmas-joy-feeling. I love this episode.
Oh, and I love when Buffy opens the door and finds Faith. Nice moment between them before their hostility for, um, the rest of the series.

**KingofCretins** · 03-12-07, 02:59 AM

Angel shouldn't have tried to kill himself. He kinda got beaten by the First, really -- it might not have been "the plan", but "it (would) do", after all. What's more, Buffy failed to talk him out of it on her own.

Who brought Angel back? I'm torn. I've never had a problem buying into the idea that the First wasn't lying and did bring him back. Nor do I have a problem with it being the Powers. Nor do I really have a problem with it being Jasmine (who was a former power already, since she had already ruled that other world). In many ways, it's not a very important question.

The snow was provided by the Powers, I have little doubt -- it was their formal investment in him as a champion. Of course, there's a whole other layer of philosophical and theological discussion one could have about the snow and several other events in the Buffyverse.

Buffy's speech was compelling, and it's almost unfair to her passionate argument that it failed.

I like the episode overall. Yes, there are "giant cheese anvils" falling from the sky (pace Couch Baron on TWOP), but it's a Christmas episode. There *should* be.

**Wolfie Gilmore** · 03-12-07, 05:13 PM

Angel's Suicide:

Ok it may seem like an obvious question to some, but do you think Angel's decision to kill himself in this episode was automatically the wrong one? I've heard many different perspectives on this over time, some believing he was actually being strong to commit suicide before the First could influence him to hurt others. The First was clearly starting to have an impact on him, evident by the scene when he is in Buffy's bedroom, and Angel admits a part of him wanted to take comfort in her which would cost him his soul. Was Angel doing the right thing by killing himself before he could kill others?

Well, taking the long view...maybe the world would have been better off without him.

Spoiler:

. However, in the moment of making the choice, he was possibly being a little hasty!

**KingofCretins** · 03-12-07, 05:21 PM

Wolfie, you ask a very legitimate and tough question. After "Amends", Angel isn't actually in the "saving the world" business. I really only see him having "saved the world" in any real sense twice -- once from a MOTW in "Happy Anniversary", and once from Jasmine. And, in the latter instance, Jasmine was only able to *threaten* the world because she used Angel, which she couldn't have if he wasn't around.

On the flip-side, Angel had an almost Roland-like 'glammer' (pace Stephen King) -- "death, but not for him". Doyle, Wesley, Cordelia, Fred,

Spoiler:

... almost everyone who came to Angel's banner as a champion found their own demise there, and with what real benefit? They've found complete disaster following the move to Wolfram & Hart, and were pawns in Jasmine's game for at least a year before that.

But... we can't say the world would have been better off had he not come back, or had he found sunlight that Christmas. Ask Faith. Ask Darla, who, despite the most extravagant set of obstacles, appeared to redeem herself. And all the other genuinely helpless he helped, or did.

**Wolfie Gilmore** · 03-12-07, 05:27 PM

Just feel I should point out, because I was being glib, that I don't think people should kill themselves because they end up not living very useful lives! But, even in weighing up Angel's deeds, he's definitely done some important good 'uns, I agree. Helping Faith, in particular, because that was something no one else was prepared to do. Well, apart from the Mayor, and I think Angel makes a slightly better sponsor than him

But... we can't say the world would have been better off had he not come back, or had he found sunlight that Christmas. Ask Faith. Ask Darla, who, despite the most extravagant set of obstacles, appeared to redeem herself. And all the other genuinely helpless he helped, or did.

Spoiler:

But in terms of Faith and Darla...well, Faith anyway...yes, he didn't stuff up absolutely everything. With Darla, well, she wouldn't have been brought back if it wasn't for Angel, so the redemption issue wouldn't have arisen in either direction. But, she did give the world Connor. Who, um...I'm sure brought sunshine into someone's life. Erm...well,

Spoiler:

**KingofCretins** · 03-12-07, 05:50 PM

Touche on your spoilers

Really, turning around Faith seems to be the top item on his resum?. There are plenty of Angel's big achievements that one would have to point to as being him cleaning up messes he made, either by accident or on purpose.

***Nina*** · 03-12-07, 06:27 PM

It sounds really sad indeed if you put Angel's mistakes on one list. Poor guy tries so hard (well the most of the time). It's really sad that he made the world only worse. I never thought about it, but you are right Wolfie, the world would be better without him. Angel has the talent to change everything he thouches into ash. I don't think that saving Faith was that important in the end, not if you're comparing it to the bad things he is responsible for.

Wow, I'm depressed now.

**KingofCretins** · 03-12-07, 06:33 PM

Nina, if I may borrow and adapt Henry David Thoreau, saving the lives of millions of people is nothing compared to saving the life of one. Angel makes a difference -- I won't just throw him right out. But I have always found it pretty odd when people (and Angel himself) talk about him saving the world.

***Nina*** · 03-12-07, 06:43 PM

That makes me a little less depressed,

However,

Spoiler:

Angel is best in saving souls indeed, something he doesn't really do anymore since season 2-3. The second half of Ats is about Angel trying to fight the big fight. Sometimes because he is forced to fight gods (Jasmine) or because he choose to (W&H).

I'm afraid that in the end only Faith won because of Angel.

**KingofCretins** · 03-12-07, 06:46 PM

It is odd, that Season 5 of Angel plays out in full detail what he only flirted with, and theoretically had learned his lesson from, in Season 2 -- trying to fight a war that the other side doesn't realize exists. In so doing, he played right into their hands.

**vampmogs** · 04-12-07, 12:54 AM

Geesh, everyone is being a bit hard on Angel aren't they? He has made mistakes, one that has cost LA a lot recently, but I wouldn't say this means the world is better off without him. He has also done a lot of good to many people and yes, did actually save the world from ending at least once in s2 and stopped Jasmine's plan in s4. I think both instances immediatly should rule out that everyone would have been better off if he'd have died.

Everyone may have died around him but lets think about it. He also helped the people around him a lot as well, he gave many of them a purpose as Wesley says in s3. It was hanging around Angel that forced Cordy to grow up, he rescued Fred from Pylea, he helped Faith and Darla as others have pointed out as well. And saving the helpless on a daily routine isn't that bad either, so what if he doesn't always save the world on a grand scale helping innocent individuals can be just as important.

**KingofCretins** · 04-12-07, 12:57 AM

It was hanging around Angel that forced Cordy to grow up, he rescued Fred from Pylea, he helped Faith and Darla as others have pointed out as well. And saving the helpless on a daily routine isn't that bad either, so what if he doesn't always save the world on a grand scale helping innocent individuals can be just as important.

Cordy and Fred are both dead. And, anyway, I kinda thought Cordy forced Angel to grow up in more ways than he did for her. As for the helpless he helped,

Spoiler:

I really might want to write an essay comparing Angel and Roland of Gilead, not sure what would be the right forum for it, though. Miscellaneous, I guess.

**vampmogs** · 04-12-07, 04:50 AM

Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post

Cordy and Fred are both dead.

Which isn't exactly his fault? He never forced them to join him, in fact both were the ones who asked to join him. And besides, yes both died but look at the situation they were in before meeting Angel? I think we could make a safe assumption in saying Fred would have died within the three years she'd been rescued from Pylea had Angel not rescued her. And whilst she ended up dying anyway her life whilst with Angel would have been considerably harder in Pylea. As far as Cordy, she believed in that mission a great deal, she was a big driving force to Angel and the people around her. I'm not convinced she'd have changed a thing about her life, as she didn't in 'Birthday' even knowing she would die.

It is kind of like saying the world would have been better of without Xander because Anya probably wouldn't have died or Willow because Tara wouldn't have died.

And, anyway, I kinda thought Cordy forced Angel to grow up in more ways than he did for her.

I don't think she forced him to grow up, she just kept driving him on. But without Angel's influence Cordy would have first, been dead in 'City Of...' and would have never met Doyle and thus got the visions.

As for the helpless he helped,

Spoiler:

Hey at least they are alive, which they wouldn't be in the first place without him.

Besides, does this mean the world would have been better off without Spike, Lorne, Wes or Gunn as well? Seeing that Angel makes it clear he couldn't have done his plan without their help and they agreed? Still not sure why he seems to be the only one who ever gets the blame?

**KingofCretins** · 04-12-07, 04:59 AM

*I* didn't say the world would be better off without Angel. Honestly, I'd call it a wash. He's no Buffy Summers.

You're probably right about Cordelia, but I *do* place Fred's death at Angel's feet. If they hadn't gone to Wolfram & Hart, she's not infected by Illyria. The fact that she could have been struck by a bus walking out for Starbucks from the Hyperion has no relevance at all. She *was* killed by Illyria, and *wouldn't* have been if not for Angel's executive decision.

**vampmogs** · 04-12-07, 05:09 AM

Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post

*I* didn't say the world would be better off without Angel. Honestly, I'd call it a wash. He's no Buffy Summers.

Nope he isn't no Buffy, he has made a lot more mistakes, and has done more things he isn't proud of and seemingly has a harder time staying motivated. However, in saying that I believe the world was better with him in it. If not for the fact he has helped a lot of people, but just for the mere fact he saved it in season two. If he had died in 'Amends' the world would have ended or at least "stopped."

You're probably right about Cordelia, but I *do* place Fred's death at Angel's feet. If they hadn't gone to Wolfram & Hart, she's not infected by Illyria. The fact that she could have been struck by a bus walking out for Starbucks from the Hyperion has no relevance at all. She *was* killed by Illyria, and *wouldn't* have been if not for Angel's executive decision.

I'd put Knox and even Gunn before Angel as people who are responsible for Fred's death.

**KingofCretins** · 04-12-07, 05:18 AM

I'd put Knox and even Gunn before Angel as people who are responsible for Fred's death.

I don't consider Knox or Gunn to be intervening or superceding causes of her death -- an evil conspiracy against one or all of them was a foreseeable consequence to making the choice to join up with W&H, meaning it still comes back to Angel. He may not have known specifically what would happen, but he reasonably should have known that *something* would.

**vampmogs** · 04-12-07, 05:27 AM

Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post

I don't consider Knox or Gunn to be intervening or superceding causes of her death

I don't understand how this couldn't be the case? Knox hand picked Fred as being worthy and Gunn signed the papers to allow Illyria's tomb into Wolfram and Hart. Both directly intervened (though Gunn somewhat unknowingly) in her death.

-- an evil conspiracy against one or all of them was a foreseeable consequence to making the choice to join up with W&H, meaning it still comes back to Angel.

To be fair it was never Wolfram and Hart who did this to Fred, it was Knox, who's plans were unknown to the Senior Partners. Hamilton makes it clear the partners didn't want Illyria here, which means if they had learned of what Knox had done they would have intervened. Wolfram and Hart's only sinister conspiracies against any of them was an attempt to corrupt them. Angel having faith that this won't happen to his people isn't entirely a bad thing, and he is fully aware as is all of them that this was exactly what they were trying to do.

He may not have known specifically what would happen, but he reasonably should have known that *something* would.

He was definitely aware of the dangers, but I wouldn't put all the blame on him. The gang seemed to have pretty much made up their minds about Wolfram and Hart, starting from getting into the limo in the first place regardless of Angel's executive decision. Gunn even directly states he is in on it regardless of wether anyone else takes it or not.

**KingofCretins** · 04-12-07, 05:40 AM

I'm applying legal theories of causation to the situation, I'm afraid. The thinking is that as long as the consequence, however oddly arrived at, is reasonably foreseeable from where you stand in the chain of causation, your action is the proximate cause. The specific details don't matter unless it introduces a risk that wasn't foreseeable when you started out. The risk that some evil W&H person, running their own agenda or not, would get one of Angel's people killed, was plainly visible, perhaps even recklessly ignored, from where he stood when he made the decision to take the deal. That puts it on him.

Think of it like if you were babysitting and were watching small children play by the pool unsupervised. Now... when they are playing by the pool, a racoon or something runs through the yard and *knocks* one of them into the pool. You weren't aware of the specific risk of the racoon, but you were aware of the reasonably foreseeable risk of one of the kids falling into the pool. It's still your responsibility.

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Christmas in Sunnydale! That time of the year again!

Christmas in Sunnydale! That time of the year again!

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