Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The empowermentspell in 'Chosen'.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The empowermentspell in 'Chosen'.

    The big mojo which made every potential in the world a slayer.

    Was this a good idea?, what brings the future with 1500 (?) slayers, were Buffy's intentions pure? Was this a sharing of her gift? ... or did she wanted to share a burden she doesn't want to carry alone?

    Buffy didn't want to have more power earlier in the season because that was 'rape', the first slayer was being 'raped'. Is the big empowerment also a 'rape'?

    And how does it work? Are there now mommy's, who are having a really strong baby in their womb *auch!*?

    ----------------------------

    At first, the idea isn't that brilliant as everybody wanted us to believe I guess. How can Wesley say that the idea was brilliant when there is a psycho slayer walking around in LA? When he is/was the watcher of Faith?

    I can see evil people (like W&H) using innocent slayers as their soldiers. If a slayer isn't rich and W&H gives her money everytime she does something for W&H, or things like the Mayor/Faith, or just arrogant slayers who likes to have power and play for god... And I don't think that will be a little group. I'm afraid that the out of control group can be pretty big. It can become a war between 'good' and 'evil' slayers.

    The worst thing of this all is that it was all for nothing, Buffy's plan with the 30 new slayers didn't really work. It was the amulet who was saving the day.


    And why did Buffy the empowerment, did she thought about it? Did the others thought about it? If this happend in the first 5 seasons, I would say Buffy did it because it had to happen ... but in the end ... I'm not so sure if her intentions were that good. She was so tired of being the slayer. And I don't think she really thought about the consequences, neither did the scooby gang. What if this is what the First wanted? Chaos, evil slayers etc.

    Some people call the spell 'rape'. I don't want to call it that way because it sounds really harsh and wrong, but I don't want to call the empowerment of the first slayer 'rape' either.


  • #2
    Ah, this is just the perfect gray area question for the distinction between the Buffy forum and the Buffy *Season 8* forum -- because can we candidly discuss the spell's meaning without examining what we know of it's consequences?
    sigpic
    Banner by LRae12

    Comment


    • #3
      To add to Kings comment above, Here's what a lot of us had to say on the matter over on this thread here.

      https://www.buffyforums.net/sh...?t=1673&page=3

      I myself think it was, well frankly a bit of a rubbish idea myself.

      Comment


      • #4
        I think the Slayer spell was a sine qua non factor in saving the world from the First in "Chosen", so I always have to look at the moral consequences of the spell through the context of knowing that it's very likely every single affected party would have been *killed* had the spell not been performed.
        sigpic
        Banner by LRae12

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks for the link, I will read the posts there. I wasn't really thinking about season 8 ... clearly not reading the comics, makes you sometimes forget they exist.

          Comment


          • #6
            Well... so that this can be discussed without a Season 8 context (and, in moral philosophy, it's usually a good idea to discuss an act without its consequences in mind to just its intrinsic status), I'll just put up a general-spoiler-but-no-specifics summary of what's happened in Season 8 that raises questions related to the spell.

            These Season 8 notes are only related to issues about the effects of the spell, and should only be looked at by non-Season 8 readers who would like to get the value-add of knowing about more consequences to the spell than just Dana.

            Spoiler:
            An organization has formed that thinks that Buffy is trying to form a master race, and is basically trying to pit her and her organization of Slayers (made up of 500 or so out of a world-wide total of just over 2,000) against all of humanity.

            As part of that plot, a rogue slayer, an aristocrat, has been manipulated into plotting to murder Buffy and attempt to take over as 'queen' of the Slayers. She has already used her ability to kidnap and kill at least one other Slayer.
            sigpic
            Banner by LRae12

            Comment


            • #7
              The issue with the Slayer power that girls all over the word were imbued with is being dealt with right now in the 8th season.

              Spoiler:
              Issues #1-4 reveals a government operation (commanded by a party we don't know of... yet) to eliminate all Slayers.
              Issue #5 is from the point of view of a nobody turned Slayer; how the power affected her personally.
              Issues #6-9, a Faith-esque Slayer is recruited to kill Buffy.


              EDIT: I just noticed KingofCretins had set some of this stuff straight already.
              sigpic

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm glad we've brought this conversation out to the entire forum, because it has been riveting in the Season 8 thread. Since we've laid out all the Season 8 data for those who'd like it, I propose we focus on the decision itself in the context in which it was made.

                I think the Slayer activation was morally justified. Yes, it raises questions of consent. Yes, it carries negative effects as well as positive. But the fact is it saved every one of their lives anyway. I can't see any moral consideration trumping that or being of any comfort to the potentials who weren't changed.
                sigpic
                Banner by LRae12

                Comment


                • #9
                  For me, don't like it, think the ending could have been worked out to be resolved some other way, as it seems counteractive to Joss's whole 'Girl Power malarkey'.

                  Also, I'm sooo pleased that in AtS they picked up some of that unresolved 'slack' and tried to deal with it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well, I think Joss just missed the problems the spell would create when you looked at the story in its own internal context.

                    On the creative side, the spell makes perfect sense. The Slayer itself has been the consistent metaphor for female empowerment, with Buffy as the icon of that empowerment. It is a natural sort of Big Happy Ending from the metaphoric standpoint to try to declare that *all* women can be like Buffy in that sense of empowerment. I think he forgot that people would be looking at it in the story's context and seeing that his Big Happy Metaphor would carry story-inclusive moral crises for the audience.

                    But, as a fan, I have much more fun looking at these things in their context as story, not as designed parts of a story.

                    So... to me, the question is, which was the more moral decision for Buffy to make -- stand aside and let them die, or arbitrarily force demonic powers on them? I vote powers. As a matter of blanket moral policy, it's better to not let people die unless there's a damn fine reason. I don't think "so they don't have to have superpowers and nightmares" constitutes enough of a reason to ignore the danger to their lives and everyone else's.
                    sigpic
                    Banner by LRae12

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      So... to me, the question is, which was the more moral decision for Buffy to make -- stand aside and let them die, or arbitrarily force demonic powers on them? I vote powers. As a matter of blanket moral policy, it's better to not let people die unless there's a damn fine reason. I don't think "so they don't have to have superpowers and nightmares" constitutes enough of a reason to ignore the danger to their lives and everyone else's.
                      Thats a bit irrelevant to me as I'm more concerned with the script and whether it could have been better thought through to begin with, rather then the end result if you get my drift.

                      As an example of female empowerment goes, I still think it has a lot to be desired.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thats a bit irrelevant to me as I'm more concerned with the script and whether it could have been better thought through to begin with, rather then the end result if you get my drift.
                        It would probably make an interesting thread, but looking back over it, it doesn't seem like that's the conversation Nina was trying to start.

                        And how does it work? Are there now mommy's, who are having a really strong baby in their womb *auch!*?
                        Nina, I doubt it. It depends on how much credit you give the Watcher's Council for knowing these things -- Kennedy, who was 19 in Season 7, felt worried that she might be too old to be called. Since she was Watcher-trained, she presumably was relying on Slayer history to draw that conclusion. I personally estimate that the age-range for potentials to actually become a Slayer is from age 11 to 20 or so, with the high and low end being very rare by percentage.
                        sigpic
                        Banner by LRae12

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by sueworld View Post
                          For me, don't like it, think the ending could have been worked out to be resolved some other way, as it seems counteractive to Joss's whole 'Girl Power malarkey'.
                          This largely depends on your point of view. Personally I don't see the problem as you cannot deny someone a choice they don't have to begin with. As far as I'm concerned all Buffy did was to provide them with extra abilities.

                          Obviously there would be side effects of this and Buffy has a duty to deal with those side effects. People ask why Buffy still fights instead of retiring and going off to do as she wants. I would say this is the reason.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I feel Buffy made the right call. Either she didn't do this out of fear that some slayers could eventually go bad down the line, or she allowed everyone to die which IMO is worse. People can't be good or evil if they are dead can they? Buffy had to make a decision and she made a right one.

                            ~ Banner by Nina ~

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                              Nina, I doubt it. It depends on how much credit you give the Watcher's Council for knowing these things -- Kennedy, who was 19 in Season 7, felt worried that she might be too old to be called. Since she was Watcher-trained, she presumably was relying on Slayer history to draw that conclusion. I personally estimate that the age-range for potentials to actually become a Slayer is from age 11 to 20 or so, with the high and low end being very rare by percentage.

                              I really hope so, if there isn't a contol on the age, I can see big problems in the future.

                              -------------------

                              My problems with the spell are more the problems I had with the stupid plan in 'Chosen', the so called rape of the first slayer and the weird plothole that the whole season they were telling us that there are just 30 potentials left and in 'Chosen' there are a lot ...

                              I think the spell isn't a bad thing, if it had to happen to save the world. But it didn't save the world, because of the stupid plan ... they would have died anyway if the amulet didn't make Spike explode.

                              The spell is really a fantastic new story, but I wouldn't mind if it went completely wrong and the scoobies had to deal with that. Like I said in the OP, there is a chance of a war between 'good' and 'evil' slayers. And what are they going to do with 'evil' slayers? Kill them? I would love to see the grey-area discussion and story.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Nina View Post
                                My problems with the spell are more the problems I had with the stupid plan in 'Chosen', the so called rape of the first slayer and the weird plothole that the whole season they were telling us that there are just 30 potentials left and in 'Chosen' there are a lot ...
                                Well we were never told they were the only potentials left, just the ones still coming to Sunnydale. There are thousands of possible slayers all over the world, many of whom aren't knowing to the Watchers Council. It was likely the First went after the ones the council were aware of first because it probably got records somehow, then had to do other means to find the rest. Given the timeframe in s7 I doubt the First's bringers could have killed that many girls all over the world.

                                I think the spell isn't a bad thing, if it had to happen to save the world. But it didn't save the world, because of the stupid plan ... they would have died anyway if the amulet didn't make Spike explode.
                                Think about it this way. If it weren't for Buffy, the Scoobies and the newly activated slayers Spike's amulet wouldn't have worked at all, because he'd have been killed by the hundreds of Ubervamps straight away The slayers certainly did their purpose, they killed many, they fought them back (remember Spike's amulet took a while to kick in)

                                The spell is really a fantastic new story, but I wouldn't mind if it went completely wrong and the scoobies had to deal with that. Like I said in the OP, there is a chance of a war between 'good' and 'evil' slayers. And what are they going to do with 'evil' slayers? Kill them? I would love to see the grey-area discussion and story.
                                You really should read s8. This is exactly what we are dealing with now, with Faith as part of the story as well. It is hard to talk about the possibilities with someone when already knowing how Joss has intended for it to be played out You should give them a try.

                                ~ Banner by Nina ~

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                                  I feel Buffy made the right call.
                                  For me it was right call, wrong speech (and wrong moral attitude). As I said in the season 8 bit, Buffy claiming it as an empowerment moment doesn't sit right. If she'd said, "I'm the general, this is what needs doing, who's with me?" that would have been more honest (even if she'd added "because we need to do this so really, you don't have a choice. Because you're not little girls any more. You're soldiers. And this is what lies before you". Still not sure I like that message mind you, but I think I like it better than the vaguely dishonest "here's where you make a choice" approach. Which might have worked if there weren't slayers around the world I guess, it's the fact that she includes them in the "choice" moment. When the girl having dinner and standing up all shaky, not looking very choicey!

                                  Though if Buffy knew all this and waas just making the speech she thought would inspire the troops the moment....I take my hat off to her sneakyness and think she rocks. In a slightly evil way.


                                  -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
                                    For me it was right call, wrong speech (and wrong moral attitude). As I said in the season 8 bit, Buffy claiming it as an empowerment moment doesn't sit right. If she'd said, "I'm the general, this is what needs doing, who's with me?" that would have been more honest (even if she'd added "because we need to do this so really, you don't have a choice. Because you're not little girls any more. You're soldiers. And this is what lies before you". Still not sure I like that message mind you, but I think I like it better than the vaguely dishonest "here's where you make a choice" approach. Which might have worked if there weren't slayers around the world I guess, it's the fact that she includes them in the "choice" moment. When the girl having dinner and standing up all shaky, not looking very choicey!

                                    Though if Buffy knew all this and waas just making the speech she thought would inspire the troops the moment....I take my hat off to her sneakyness and think she rocks. In a slightly evil way.
                                    Well she said here is the part where "you" make a choice. Kinda figured she meant everyone in that room actually fighting the good fight. As we've stated earlier, logically there was no way she could have found all the potentials around the globe and asked them personally. IMO she was giving her soilders a choice.

                                    ~ Banner by Nina ~

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                                      Well we were never told they were the only potentials left, just the ones still coming to Sunnydale. There are thousands of possible slayers all over the world, many of whom aren't knowing to the Watchers Council. It was likely the First went after the ones the council were aware of first because it probably got records somehow, then had to do other means to find the rest. Given the timeframe in s7 I doubt the First's bringers could have killed that many girls all over the world.
                                      I haven't seen season 7 since it aired in the Netherlands ... Which must be more than 3 years ago. So I don't remember it all, but I always thought that there were just 30 girls left. That (almost) all the potentials were in Sunnydale. But I remember now Amanda popping-up as a potential, so I guess my memory is letting me down.


                                      Think about it this way. If it weren't for Buffy, the Scoobies and the newly activated slayers Spike's amulet wouldn't have worked at all, because he'd have been killed by the hundreds of Ubervamps straight away The slayers certainly did their purpose, they killed many, they fought them back (remember Spike's amulet took a while to kick in)
                                      Maybe I should see it that way, but then I'm back to the 'it's just luck' part, and that is annoying me. I would have loved it so much more if it all made sense and that they had won because their plan was good. But you're right, without the spell they wouldn't have won.

                                      You really should read s8. This is exactly what we are dealing with now, with Faith as part of the story as well. It is hard to talk about the possibilities with someone when already knowing how Joss has intended for it to be played out You should give them a try.
                                      I think I would have read them if the comics were on sale here. Now I'm just following the season 8 talk on this forum a little and watch the beautiful artwork of the covers. But I will start reading the scripts posted by KoC soon. Because if they are really dealing with this stuf I want to read it.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I think I would have read them if the comics were on sale here. Now I'm just following the season 8 talk on this forum a little and watch the beautiful artwork of the covers. But I will start reading the scripts posted by KoC soon. Because if they are really dealing with this stuf I want to read it.
                                        Excellent. When the subject matter is so directly taken on in Season 8, it begs the question -- why speculate when you can just check it out?

                                        Wolfie, Buffy's line about choice is the biggest problem -- the rest of that speech actually plays pretty well. It's something that you just sort of wince and ignore, I think, kinda like when Obi-Wan says "only the Sith deal in absolutes" when, for the previous 5.9 movies, the Sith have been the moral relativists (not to mention that the foregoing statement was, in itself, an absolute).
                                        sigpic
                                        Banner by LRae12

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X