Spike (Post-The Gift)

[Nostalgia]

Hello everyone.. It's currently 11:47.. and I tried to convince myself I'm too tired to do it.. but I'm going to make a thread anyway.

I had been thinking about this earlier.. on a drive. And now that I'm seeing this talk in the season thread.. whether or not Spike's motivations were for Buffy's interest or because he was truly becoming a good person.. I have a thread to make.

My question: Did Buffy influence Spike? Let's say this.. more specifically.. if Buffy had never been resurrected, would Spike still be fighting for the good side until this day? This is an important question to be raised because many feel that it was all for Buffy's attention and her love interest. However, see in Intervention- After Life that he did it from the kindness in his heart.. not for Buffy's affection but for Buffy. Did he truly love Buffy enough to continue his promise even till' this day? Let's say he found a way to unactivate his chip.. would he still be working in her name? Is her love and promise more important to him than his primal instincts? We saw in Smashed that he had changed as soon as he found that he could eat again.. and suddenly we were back to square one. Yet, was this out of the frustration because of her timely rejection? It's interesting because up and until Once More With Feeling.. they seem to just be allies.. and what seems to be a sexual remark is just in Buffy's mind. As Kings pointed out.. it seemed to be cute.. as if they were more friends at this point that lovers. However, another question is raised: Before Spike had demonstrated his events in Smashed.. was a love evolving? We've seen him pour himself in After Life.. and demonstrate his heart for her.. Could they have been in love even without him getting a soul? If Spike continued to be the man that we were fooled into believing he would be pre-Smashed.. would Buffy allow herself to love him? Would the fact of him not having a soul hold her back from her feelings? Even if she knew he had changed?

I think there is significant answers to both these questions.. but I am interested to see the reactions.

[Jenni Lou]

This is simple for me. And I am a Spike fan. And I did enjoy the Buffy/Spike ship. But yes....Buffy absolutely influenced him. He fought on the good side only because he was trying to win her affections. Because he knew he would never stand a chance if was helping evil in any way.

But the not-so-simple part is why he cared for and protected Dawn after Buffy was dead. Without Buffy, why would he continue to help the Scoobs at all? I guess it comes down to how deep his love was for Buffy/ He still wanted to do right by her even after her death. And I think he always liked Dawn, too. However, if Buffy had never returned, whose to say that his feelings wouldn't change? We just don't know. THe way I have always felt about Spike is that the chip did change him. It didn't stop him from being a monster at the core but if he had never had it, then that love he had for Buffy--if he would have even had fallen in love with her without the chip--wouldn't have been enough to keep him from killing. Simple as that, I think.

[KingofCretins]

Had Buffy never returned... no. He wouldn't have stayed invested in fighting the good fight. I always felt it was pretty clear his only real investment was in protecting Dawn, and that *access* to Dawn mandated his cooperation on things like patrolling and maintaining their cover and so on. And I can't imagine him having dwelt on it for longer than a couple years, at most.

I don't think they could have ever sustained a meaningful relationship without him getting his soul, because, even if he hadn't decided to take what I called a shortcut and start with the sexual and emotional manipulation, he still would have eventually done stupid crap that put people's lives in danger, a la "As You Were", because that's what Spike is.

Could he have gotten together with her at all going with the 'respect and genuine affection' approach I preferred? I'd say, yeah, he could have -- but it would have ultimately collapsed and may well have still ended up with the AR anyway.

[ThePoet's<3]

My feelings about Post-Gift Spike was that

1) He was honoring her memory by continuing to help the Scoobs
2) As a demon who could not kill humans - and was wanted by the Demon population for killing his own kind - he continued to allign himself with the Scoobs to "belong". Buffy in the last episode had made it plain she trusted and relied on him fighting at her side. (or on her side)
3) He was grieving. He wanted to be close to her. And how could he be close to her? By being near the people she loved - the Scoobs.

I believed he loved her as much as he could possibly love her before you need a soul to love. There. That's the best way I can explain that without getting into the "Was Soulful Spike Good" trap.

[Nina]

I think that he loved her in the same twisted way he loved Drusilla. And because of the chip, he couldn't hurt humans so the action in his life had to happen in the fight against demons. He 'loved' her and fought her fight because of that love. But I think that if Drusilla had came back and/or his chip would had broken he would have left. In season 2 Spike and Drusilla were for ever. But then a couple of years later he wanted to kill Dru for Buffy. I think it would have happend again. He thinks his love is forever, but never is. After a year he would move on I think.

BTW I think it's a little weird that he keeps fighting the fight in season 6 without Buffy. But in Ats he doesn't really feel the fight spirit since Buffy can't see him fighting. He starts fighting because he thinks there are cookies if he fight. Especially because it would be Angel's cookies. It takes the dead of Fred, before he fight because he thinks it's right.

[ThePoet's<3]

I think at first - he didn't want to align himself with Angel because of their old rivalry issues. But I also believe Spike knew that what Angel was involved with would consume him (Angel) and Spike didn't want to be a part of it. Even Cordy pointed that out to Angel - "So Spike's the hero now and you are the CEO of Hell Incorporated" (or something to that affect) Remember - Spike has somewhat of an insight into the lives of others. Doesn't particularly help him out a whole heck of a lot - but he is very adapt at pointing out the truth in others.

He aligned himself with Fred because she said, "he was worth saving". And she did try to find a way to free him from his corporeal self. And in Spike's book - that gains you very high marks indeed.

[spuffbeste]

[B]Could they have been in love even without him getting a soul?

Well, I don't think so, because Buffy was so cruel to Spike when he was soulless. In s7, Buffy was so impressed of Spike. She understood that Spike is really in love with her. In s6, Buffy was insulting Spike. She was saying you're not a vampire, you're not a human you're just a soulless creature. So she didn't believe his love for her. On the other hand, in s7 he proved his deep love. Also, in the episode dead things, Spike asks her that she trustes him or not. Buffy answers never but we can see her trust by removing the chip from Spike. She had the chance for not removing but she didn't!

I don't think there'll be a real relationship between a soulless Spike and Buffy.

[Nina]

I think at first - he didn't want to align himself with Angel because of their old rivalry issues. But I also believe Spike knew that what Angel was involved with would consume him (Angel) and Spike didn't want to be a part of it. Even Cordy pointed that out to Angel - "So Spike's the hero now and you are the CEO of Hell Incorporated" (or something to that affect) Remember - Spike has somewhat of an insight into the lives of others. Doesn't particularly help him out a whole heck of a lot - but he is very adapt at pointing out the truth in others.

He aligned himself with Fred because she said, "he was worth saving". And she did try to find a way to free him from his corporeal self. And in Spike's book - that gains you very high marks indeed.

I understand that he didn't want to work with/for Angel. But he could do what Angel (and Buffy) once did, help the helpless, innocents etc. He was sitting in sexclubs at night instead. He started the fight after Doyle!Lindsay told him to fight because the PTB's wanted him as their hero.

[vampmogs]

I understand that he didn't want to work with/for Angel. But he could do what Angel (and Buffy) once did, help the helpless, innocents etc. He was sitting in sexclubs at night instead. He started the fight after Doyle!Lindsay told him to fight because the PTB's wanted him as their hero.

Yeah this is something I always had a problem with. Spike didn't make an effort to redeem himself until Lindsey tricked him into it, and even then he seemed to take great pleasure in sticking it to Angel about his new gig.

Buffy felt compelled to fight, even when she didn't owe anyone anything, and Angel was fighting vamps and saving innocents in LA, before Doyle came to him and told him the PTB wanted him as their champion.

[Jenni Lou]

Yeah this is something I always had a problem with. Spike didn't make an effort to redeem himself until Lindsey tricked him into it, and even then he seemed to take great pleasure in sticking it to Angel about his new gig.

Well, from Spike's perspective, he has given his life in Sunnydale, only to be turned into a ghost. At Angel's place of work no less. He was bitter and frustrated. After being turned corporeal again, one could argue he would have headed down the champion path sooner or later, He just needed to adjust.

Also, Spike had a different disposition than Angel when it came to his soul. I always found that Angel regarded himself as a monster in reform whereas Spike sort of thought of himself as a monster in a previous life. They both had guilt. But I think Angel had a bigger slice of it. So that could very well be a factor too.