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What do you think about fan-made ships- like Spangel

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  • What do you think about fan-made ships- like Spangel

    Hi everyone!

    I was thinking about Spike/Angel, Faith/Buffy , Oz/Buffy, Spike/Willow, Oz/Tara, Fait/Angel(us) etc. shippers. Some of them are okay, I respect all ..if that two characters knew each other well they could have been but come on, Offy.. isn't it a bit strange?
    28
    I think they're realistic/nice!It shows us the relationships that we can't imagine:)
    28.57%
    8
    I think all of them are ridiculous! Real ones are good enough for me!
    17.86%
    5
    I don't know,That's changeable according to the relationship
    53.57%
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  • #2
    Originally posted by selenspuffy View Post
    Hi everyone!

    I was thinking about Spike/Angel, Faith/Buffy , Oz/Buffy, Spike/Willow, Oz/Tara, Fait/Angel(us) etc. shippers. Some of them are okay, I respect all ..if that two characters knew each other well they could have been but come on, Offy.. isn't it a bit strange?
    Well, some of those aren't actually fan-made (Spangel and that one time), and Faith and Angel were a couple in a sense...well, Faith thought they were, Angel was pretending!

    But, yes, mostly made up. It's interesting, the "shipping" drive...I suppose it's partly about perceiving chemistry tbetween actors/characters and building on that. And then sometimes about just trying to think of the weirdest-ass thing you can. Like all those Doctor Who stories about Jack/The Doctor's hand. Which naturally I have not read but..erm...my friend...what's that over there?

    *gets my coat*


    -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

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    • #3
      Anything is possible in fanfiction ladies. Online fandoms play host to an incredibly rich and diverse number of fictions, het, slash and femslash alike.

      An author can get me to to believe any pairing would work if it's written well enough.

      Andrew/cardboard box, I'd believe it under the right circumstances.

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      • #4
        I don't think anyone's raised the question of what's valid in fanfiction so much as which fan-made 'ships would hold up as canon. Most of them wouldn't, I don't think. The reason that anything is possible in fanfic is in part due to the fact that little consideration is paid in fanfic for what's authentic to the characters or the broader story of the movie/book/show that the fanfic is based on.

        If you look at fanfic that is 'shippy, I'd say probably half is straight PWP anyway. Of the half that's left, I'd say about another half comes right out and says it's "AU" fic. And of that 25% left, I'd guess that another half of that probably completely retcons the characters to suit a particular 'ship.
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        • #5
          I think they are ridiculous, because when we don't see their connection in the episodes, then what's the point of this?Also, Spangel or Fuffy are more ridiculous relationships. You know, they are not gay and the funny way is they are enemies in Buffy. I don't know maybe the other guys don't agree with me at all. But that's my opinion...

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          • #6
            As Wolfie pointed out, Spangel is textual, because of that line. Buffy/Faith isn't textual, but at least it can point back to the actual canon in their interactions -- Doug Petrie takes pride in the fact that he wrote them as having that kind of subtext. Most of the rest are just for amusement value only.
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            • #7
              ...the funny way is they are enemies in Buffy.
              But nemeses can still want one another. Witness Buffy and Spike! Ok, they're not quite nemeses because he's too much of a muppet. But enemies, anyway.

              I don't know maybe the other guys don't agree with me at all. But that's my opinion...
              Don't agree at all!

              Originally posted by spuffbeste View Post
              I think they are ridiculous, because when we don't see their connection in the episodes, then what's the point of this?Also, Spangel or Fuffy are more ridiculous relationships.
              But there often are connections to the episodes. Ok, not with Andrew/cardboard box, but with, say, Andrew/Warren...they never actually had a relationship, but it was heavily hinted that Andrew wanted one. And as for Fuffy, I'm not incredibly into it, because I don't think there was much sexual tension from Buffy's point of view, but I could believe in a story that did it as an unrequited love thing from Faith's point of view.

              She wanted Buffy in complex ways...as a friend, or to BE Buffy...and that desire could be read sexually, even if it would never actually happen except in the mind. Envy and lust can be closely tied together, especially between two people of the same sex, imo...because it can be hard to untangle whether you want them or want to be them - which I think is sometimes the Spangel tension, or at least the Spangelus tension. Although Spike claims to be scornful of Angelus, we see him envying him, his position, esp with Drusilla. That envy could be read also as a desire FOR Angelus...though no subtext reading necessary when it's canon I guess. Though you could look for further subtext to flesh out the canon.


              Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
              As Wolfie pointed out, Spangel is textual, because of that line. Buffy/Faith isn't textual, but at least it can point back to the actual canon in their interactions -- Doug Petrie takes pride in the fact that he wrote them as having that kind of subtext. Most of the rest are just for amusement value only.
              "The subtext is rapidly becoming text"

              In BtVS and Angel, things often happen first as subtext, then as text (eg Faith-as-Buffy taunting Spike sexually leads into Spike's love for Buffy, and eventually she DOES pop him like warm champagne...or Willow and Tara's magic spells becoming actual sex later). So it's not ridiculous, or even much of a stretch, to turn subtext into text when writing fanfic.

              Or, as Sueworld says, anything's possible in fanfic, so even if it was ridiculous from the point of view of the show itself, would it matter? If it's written well and is believable in context. Or unbelievable in an amusing, wacky way.


              -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

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              • #8
                She wanted Buffy in complex ways...as a friend, or to BE Buffy...and that desire could be read sexually, even if it would never actually happen except in the mind. Envy and lust can be closely tied together, especially between two people of the same sex, imo...because it can be hard to untangle whether you want them or want to be them - which I think is sometimes the Spangel tension, or at least the Spangelus tension. Although Spike claims to be scornful of Angelus, we see him envying him, his position, esp with Drusilla. That envy could be read also as a desire FOR Angelus...though no subtext reading necessary when it's canon I guess. Though you could look for further subtext to flesh out the canon.
                I think it could be read sexually -- I suspect if the show had been on UPN already, we'd have gotten an indication that Faith had done more than just get clean in the tub in "Who Are You?" -- but really their relationship is almost too complicated to be bogged down in 'shippiness.

                On a tangent, the one non-textual 'ship I've always inferred the most is whether Spike and Darla ever had a thing -- maybe in the time after Angel finally fled from the group? By the time we get to "Destiny" and "The Girl in Question", it's pretty obvious that polyamory was the order of the day amongst that group, but that was the only direction they didn't draw a bright line even in dialogue. Are the overtones between the four vamps strong enough that we can just assume?

                Or, as Sueworld says, anything's possible in fanfic, so even if it was ridiculous from the point of view of the show itself, would it matter? If it's written well and is believable in context. Or unbelievable in an amusing, wacky way.
                Anything is possible, but most won't be any good, I suspect, especially if it is set-up by wholesale departure from actual canon. Honestly, whether it's 'shippy or not, I'm almost completely disinterested in AU fic. There's just no hook there. The only exception is "DeadWar" by Mabus, because the premise is so unique that it is entertaining in its own right.
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                • #9
                  Anything is possible, but most won't be any good, I suspect, especially if it is set-up by wholesale departure from actual canon.
                  Huzzah! Fine by me!

                  Err, have you actually rad any thats not your own? There are all sorts of fic written out there. Some very cleverly interweave elements of what you would perceive as being canon, whilst others use their imaginations and run with it.

                  I love diversity myself, rather then rigid thinking when it comes to what I read.

                  But hey, whatever floats your boat eh.

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                  • #10
                    Err, have you actually rad any thats not your own? There are all sorts of fic written out there. Some very cleverly interweave elements of what you would perceive as being canon, whilst others use their imaginations and run with it.
                    I've read plenty of each category, yeah I still don't see how we're pretending canon is a subjective thing, though. The only stuff I tend to avoid are clear AU fic (things with "Season 6 Buffy, except Glory turned good, Dawn never existed, and Angel never left Sunnydale", and such). And Spuffy. Takes a helluva writer to make me read Spuffy (waves at Dorian's Kitten ).

                    Also, "have I read read any that's not my own"? WTF kind of question is that?
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                    • #11
                      The only stuff I tend to avoid are clear AU fic (things with "Season 6 Buffy, except Glory turned good, Dawn never existed, and Angel never left Sunnydale", and such).
                      I think the fics that start with caveats like that are annoying - of the "by the way in this story Dawn doesn't exist" - because a story should stand alone, but if the difference in the universe is written in and fleshed out fully, then it can work very well. However, I prefer AUs that are TOTALLY AU, eg "Giles and Wesley are at a boarding school in the 1950s" or something, that somehow fits the characters but is in a different parallel universe. I'm still waiting to read a fic that's about a universe entirely populated by shrimp versions of the scoobies. Does one exist?

                      When it comes to non canon relationships, I find the skill of those fics comes from building on the charactesr as they are in the show and finding ways of weaving the two characters closer together - whether in a shippy way or as friends or even as enemies, but involving two characters in a more intimate way than they were ever put together on teh show...it's all about the way it's built up to, the narrative foreplay.


                      -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
                        But nemeses can still want one another. Witness Buffy and Spike! Ok, they're not quite nemeses because he's too much of a muppet. But enemies, anyway.
                        Well,I don't think so. Spike and Buffy WERE enemies, they are not enemies now. Spike did everything for Buffy when he has fallen in love with Buffy! How can any Buffy-watchers ignore that?
                        Also, Buffy and Faith were friends, then they turned to enemies but in season 7 we saw them like friends. Nonetheless, they struggled with words in season 7 and she had to leave the house because of her. Although her friends wanted her to leave the house,(like Spike has said in the episode) Faith was the main reason for Buffy to leave the house. So they were enemies.
                        I think you're wrong with this point

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                        • #13
                          What do I think? I think some of them are really good and some of them are really fun to imagine.. But there are some that makes me go eww.. Like Oz and Buffy... no way in hell.

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                          • #14
                            I don't figure how you get Faith having the primary role in Buffy leaving the house in "Empty Places" -- Faith (one of the only people in that scene who, as far as I'm concerned, was entitled to an opinion) was still basically willing to defer to Buffy, she just wanted her to think it over.

                            And it wouldn't be a far stretch to say that Buffy and Faith's last scene together in "End of Days" wasn't informed by some of the subtext set up earlier. I love these two characters when they get along. Buffy may have a couple thousand Slayers in the world with her now, but she still only has one equal still. The depth of their connection is what makes their fanfic 'shipping understandable to me.
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                            • #15
                              The only stuff I tend to avoid are clear AU fic
                              Technically all fanfic is AU as it was not seen in the show, nor written by Joss or his staff writers. We all get to play in this verse, and luckily for us Joss encourages such behavior, including slash.

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                              • #16
                                I can see how I miscommunicated that -- I should have added a parenthetical explanation of exactly what I meant by my usage. Something to the effect of "things with "Season 6 Buffy, except Glory turned good, Dawn never existed, and Angel never left Sunnydale", and such" might have made it clearer.

                                When you get to the fanfic 'ships without textual support, like Buffy/Oz, Giles/Drusilla, the various 'black dress' slashes for Spike, you're going to find a lot more badfic than you will good.
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                                • #17
                                  When you get to the fanfic 'ships without textual support, like Buffy/Oz, Giles/Drusilla, the various 'black dress' slashes for Spike, you're going to find a lot more badfic than you will good.
                                  In your opinion. I on the other hand have found that even the most 'canon' friendly fanfics have had their own fair share of bad writing.

                                  Maybe you're just not reading a big enough mixture?

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                                  • #18
                                    Well, that's certainly a step up from just assuming I only read my own fic.

                                    There's bad writing and there's badfic. They aren't always the same thing. Any fic can be badly written, but only badfic is badfic. Non-canon relationships are far more prone to those conventions than are other 'ship fic or non-'shippy fic.
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                                    • #19
                                      It depends largely on the pairing and the timing of the fic. For example, I don't object to season 7 Fawn or Fawn post Chosen, but Fawn scenes set in the false memories from season 3 are creepy. I won't start on Fawn set during 'Who Are You?'. There are some pairings I consider inhernetly OOC and won't read, but they aren't the majority.

                                      On the subject of badfic, any fic which exists for the sole purpose of bringing two characters together is an automatic fail, and you loose points if one or both of them start out OOC.
                                      Last edited by Anon; 29-10-07, 08:35 PM.

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                                      • #20
                                        Sorry 'King' that statement is utter rubbish. How on earth can you prove that? Have you read all the fics out there? Who made you the 'king' of good taste eh?
                                        Last edited by sueworld; 29-10-07, 08:34 PM.

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