Thoughts on OMWF?

[holypotatoes]

Okay so I started this thread to have a place to have our discussion on why we either like or dislike Once More With Feeling instead of taking over the episode tournament game thread with our thoughts. There have been other threads on what's your favorite song or scene in OMWF but I'm pretty sure there isn't one on just having people explain why they like it or don't, so feel free to discuss.......again.

(ps. sherrilina you'll get post count in this one! )

[BlasterBoy]

hehe. You know my thoughts on this episode. And, tbh, they aren't very positive.

Well, I think Once More With Feeling is very good, and in my top 10 episode of season 6! But, nowhere near as good as everyone says. I just think it's a good episode. Sure, the singing and songwriting is fantastic, but really, really repetitive. Sure, the sets look fantastics. But, honestly, do sets make a good show? I love the storyline, but it's drawn out by the repetitive singing. Don't get me wrong, I love the songs and their voices. It's just not an episode I'd choose to watch, because it gets very old. Also, they used Dawn and Xander as plot devices, which really pisses me off. Here, it looks like Joss totally forgets that these two characters have grown and don't do these kinds of things! Xander would NEVER do another spell like that! Does anyone remember BB&B in Season 2? He learned his lesson! It's absurd!

So, honestly, even though it's a very good episode, it is completely overrated. A shame, really.

[ShinyFirefly]

Xander would NEVER do another spell like that! Does anyone remember BB&B in Season 2? He learned his lesson! It's absurd!
.

Until these forums I never thought of it that way, and I think you're right. Not only that but if Xander was the one to do the spell when they were singing "I've Got a Theory" wouldn't he have been forced to sing the truth as he was later with Anya in "I'll Never Tell"? Plus the fact that Xander doing the spell becomes sort of a joke at the end, even though people were burned alive because of it and Dawn was kidnapped because of it is pretty silly.

[BlasterBoy]

Until these forums I never thought of it that way, and I think you're right. Not only that but if Xander was the one to do the spell when they were singing "I've Got a Theory" wouldn't he have been forced to sing the truth as he was later with Anya in "I'll Never Tell"? Plus the fact that Xander doing the spell becomes sort of a joke at the end, even though people were burned alive because of it and Dawn was kidnapped because of it is pretty silly.

Exactly my point! I also never thought about him singing out the truth! And, why did Dawn steal the necklace? Did she just like it? Was this happening during the time she stole all those things? If so, wouldn't she have sung about that, as well? Also, what about her sister being the SLAYER in school!?

And yeah, it was basically completely forgotten. "Oh, silly Xander!" The thing that bugs me about Xander doing this is that he's one of my favorite characters, and he is completely turned into a crappy plot device in a great episode. It could never be a favorite if one of your favorites is ruined, imo.

[Jenni Lou]

I also never thought about him singing out the truth! And, why did Dawn steal the necklace? Did she just like it? Was this happening during the time she stole all those things? If so, wouldn't she have sung about that, as well?

1. He didn't sing the truth because then it would expose Sweet and therefore, it would go against the demon's interests. The spell forces out truth, yes, but I don't see why it would force out this particular truth. Surely the demon has thought of a way to keep that little truth hidden. That's just my opinion.

2. Yes, this was foreshadowing of Dawn's kleptomania. We see her do it for the first time in (I think) All the Way, which is the ep previous to this one. Why wouldn't she sing about it? Well, why would she? It's not as if every single secret the group every had is exposed in this episode.

As for Xander....yeah, I get it. Some fans feel like this episode was a betrayal of his character. And perhaps it was. Perhaps it was a plot device. But you know what? There have been plenty of plot devices that are just as silly and stupid. This show isn't perfect; it is layered with plot holes and deux et machina. Most every show is. That's what happens when they only have eight days to shoot an entire episode. Sometimes they just have to swallow a bit of their pride and compromise. And it's why I'm not going to get bent out of shape for Xander summoning a demon.

Also, I would like to point out that we don't know that Xander did actually summon Sweet. For all we know, he copped to taking the talisman to get Dawn out of trouble. Dawn could have absolutely been the one to actually call upon Sweet. And that would not be out of her character. This is a perfectly fine rationalization because Xander never sang that he summoned Sweet. He merely said it. And therefore, he would retain the ability to lie. The truth is released only through song.

[BlasterBoy]

1. He didn't sing the truth because then it would expose Sweet and therefore, it would go against the demon's interests. The spell forces out truth, yes, but I don't see why it would force out this particular truth. Surely the demon has thought of a way to keep that little truth hidden. That's just my opinion.

I don't think he controls what people sing, at all! I think he just makes them sing the truth. And even if it isn't in his interest, how is it negative towards him? Wow, the gang will get mad at Xander. That wouldn't stop the Sweet in any way They know there's a demon out there, Xander's just saying there's one that makes people sing the truth. That wouldn't help to stop him.

2. Yes, this was foreshadowing of Dawn's kleptomania. We see her do it for the first time in (I think) All the Way, which is the ep previous to this one. Why wouldn't she sing about it? Well, why would she? It's not as if every single secret the group every had is exposed in this episode.

Well, why did they happen to spill out the most important secrets to them? That's probably Dawn's. She's being lonely so she steals. That's the most important thing for her at the moment; not math.

As for Xander....yeah, I get it. Some fans feel like this episode was a betrayal of his character. And perhaps it was. Perhaps it was a plot device. But you know what? There have been plenty of plot devices that are just as silly and stupid. This show isn't perfect; it is layered with plot holes and deux et machina. Most every show is. That's what happens when they only have eight days to shoot an entire episode. Sometimes they just have to swallow a bit of their pride and compromise. And it's why I'm not going to get bent out of shape for Xander summoning a demon.

But, they didn't have eight days to shoot it! By many it's called "perfect". They had months to shoot the episode, and Joss had months to write it. He could have changed that one thing? He could've changed it to something else. *coughlookbelowcough* Also, it's a huge thing for Xander! He's learned his lesson many times! He hates demon! It's something he would never do. It's like, if Buffy killed a human that was possessed without a second thought, and everyone let it go with no argument.

Also, I would like to point out that we don't know that Xander did actually summon Sweet. For all we know, he copped to taking the talisman to get Dawn out of trouble. Dawn could have absolutely been the one to actually call upon Sweet. And that would not be out of her character. This is a perfectly fine rationalization because Xander never sang that he summoned Sweet. He merely said it. And therefore, he would retain the ability to lie. The truth is released only through song.

But, we don't know that he didn't release him In the episode, it said that Xander did it. The truth isn't ONLY released in song, it just HAS to be in song. And, a good scenario would be Xander lying for Dawn! So, in Tabula Rasa or in that episode, Xander could confront Dawn about it, have a nice meaningful talk! It would be another "Potential". But, it didn't happen. So, as far as we know, Xander did it. Because, a possibility is that Xander COULD HAVE done that, but then they neglected to ever mention it again and leave us thinking that Xander did it! He was the only one who confessed, or people found out about. The show said Xander.

[Veverka]

Also, I would like to point out that we don't know that Xander did actually summon Sweet. For all we know, he copped to taking the talisman to get Dawn out of trouble. Dawn could have absolutely been the one to actually call upon Sweet. And that would not be out of her character. This is a perfectly fine rationalization because Xander never sang that he summoned Sweet. He merely said it. And therefore, he would retain the ability to lie. The truth is released only through song.

I love the episode. Love. Heart. It.

However, the first few times I saw it, I took it at face value, and thought, it's not quite right, but I was blown away by the singing and was in awe... so basically, never gave i tmuch thought, until reading more on it here/at BW. At which point, I realised, how if that was the case that Xander summoned Sweet, it sucked.

I asked a friend who only saw it once, and she replied right away with "of course Dawn summoned it. Xander was covering for her, that's obvious". The hole in the plot, however, is when we get to Selfless and we see Xander mumbling in his sleep about wanting it to be all okay...

The only way I can fanwank this is that this is Anya's perception/memory of the event, and she believes Xander summoned it...

[BlasterBoy]

I love the episode. Love. Heart. It.

However, the first few times I saw it, I took it at face value, and thought, it's not quite right, but I was blown away by the singing and was in awe... so basically, never gave i tmuch thought, until reading more on it here/at BW. At which point, I realised, how if that was the case that Xander summoned Sweet, it sucked.

I asked a friend who only saw it once, and she replied right away with "of course Dawn summoned it. Xander was covering for her, that's obvious". The hole in the plot, however, is when we get to Selfless and we see Xander mumbling in his sleep about wanting it to be all okay...

The only way I can fanwank this is that this is Anya's perception/memory of the event, and she believes Xander summoned it...

Well, I don't think it sucked I thought it was very good, but insanely overrated.

But, Xander covering for her wasn't obvious, imo. She showed no facial expressions to show her appreciation or anything. I've just seen it again, so I remember

I never knew about the Selfless flashback thing But, I don't know if that proves he didn't do it. He could be not doing it, and wanting the people to stop dying. Or, wanting the truth to stop coming out, like it did in "I'll Never Tell". Ugh, I'm defending it now But, I think Xander confessing proves it

[Veverka]

Well, I don't think it sucked I thought it was very good, but insanely overrated.

Oh- I wasn't clear. Not the ep. I never thought the ep sucked... just the Xander summons the demon part... !

[holypotatoes]

Originally posted by Veverka
The only way I can fanwank this is that this is Anya's perception/memory of the event, and she believes Xander summoned it...

Ah good thinking! Anything's a possibility at this point isn't it? Unless they confirm this in Season 8.

Anyhoo about the lying thing, I don't really think Sweet could keep them from saying certain things. He made them sing what was on there mind not just they're deep dark secrets. Lets think about this "they got the mustard out!" Is that really a secret? No. It's just what was on their mind at the time. I also don't think Sweet would've cared if Xander or whoever actually did it said his name. Do we think they would have a demon named Sweet in one of their books? Granted they seem to find every random demon in the books but still. So after babeling for a little while my conclusion is Sweet couldn't keep the characters from saying certain things!

I never knew about the Selfless flashback thing But, I don't know if that proves he didn't do it. He could be not doing it, and wanting the people to stop dying. Or, wanting the truth to stop coming out, like it did in "I'll Never Tell". Ugh, I'm defending it now But, I think Xander confessing proves it

I'm sooooo lost with this paragraph especially the part I bolded, that I'm just gonna ignore it Ben! I'm very tired, maybe that's the problem.

[Jenni Lou]

The truth isn't ONLY released in song, it just HAS to be in song. And, a good scenario would be Xander lying for Dawn! So, in Tabula Rasa or in that episode, Xander could confront Dawn about it, have a nice meaningful talk! It would be another "Potential". But, it didn't happen. So, as far as we know, Xander did it. Because, a possibility is that Xander COULD HAVE done that, but then they neglected to ever mention it again and leave us thinking that Xander did it! He was the only one who confessed, or people found out about. The show said Xander.

okay, first of all; chill, dude! You are getting a little too worked up.

As for there never being a confrontation...so what?! Do you know how many times in how many shows that people don't TALK about things that happened in the previous episodes? There's this thing in writing called "show, don't tell." The fact that there was never a conversation about it doesn't mean anything other than the fact that it would have been boring to watch.

But I really don't want to argue about anything. I like the episode and yeah, it's overrated. Fine, whatever. The Gift is way overrated too and I happen not to think it's the best thing ever like lots of other fans do.

Also, and I wrote this in the tournament thread, I make it a habit not to over-watch episodes I like. That way I am ensured to enjoy them each time I view them instead of having them become these mundane minutes I can't remember why I originally liked so much. I haven't watch OMWF in at least a year. Next time I watch, I will be sure to love it still.

[BlasterBoy]

I'm sooooo lost with this paragraph especially the part I bolded, that I'm just gonna ignore it Ben! I'm very tired, maybe that's the problem.

Sorry, replace didn't with did. Does that make more sense?

What I meant was that Xander saying, "I want things to be okay," does not mean he's saying that he summoned the sweet. He might just want people to stop dying and spilling out their secrets or what's on their mind.

EDIT:

I'm not mad. I just capitalize things I stress haha

I just don't think that Joss intended that. He would've shown some clue. Because people can't just say that all the evidence points one way, but it could happen another if something was added, cause nothing was.

[holypotatoes]

Sorry, replace didn't with did. Does that make more sense?

Yep that makes a little more sense now! I think we all get what you're trying to say. I really don't have much opinion on the Selfless flashback since I haven't watched Selfless in a long time. One of the reason's my dvd players been busted for quite some time. I'm starting to get really annoyed and frustrated without my Buffy fix. I really do need to get it fixed or buy a new one altogether. Back to the topic at hand. How can you guys even remember a reference from an episode that happened like a year later? Was Xander specifically talking about OMWF or was he talking about something else because "I want things to be okay" could mean a lot of things especially in Season 7.

I'm not mad. I just capitalize things I stress haha

I realized I'm wearing the perfect shirt for you Ben. It says "Caps Lock (there's actually the caps lock button on there), Cruise control for AWESOME!!!"

And I don't think you actually need to write holypotatoes when doing the quotes post thing, you can just write Stacy. Some people may get confused but they'll figure it out. I'm sure.

[BlasterBoy]

Yep that makes a little more sense now! I think we all get what you're trying to say. I really don't have much opinion on the Selfless flashback since I haven't watched Selfless in a long time. One of the reason's my dvd players been busted for quite some time. I'm starting to get really annoyed and frustrated without my Buffy fix. I really do need to get it fixed or buy a new one altogether. Back to the topic at hand. How can you guys even remember a reference from an episode that happened like a year later? Was Xander specifically talking about OMWF or was he talking about something else because "I want things to be okay" could mean a lot of things especially in Season 7.

Well, the flashback was to Once More With Feeling. That's why she was singing It could refer to something else completely, yes. So, we don't know. Maybe he was just mumbling I don't even remember the mumbling, but Vev did

[holypotatoes]

Well, the flashback was to Once More With Feeling. That's why she was singing It could refer to something else completely, yes. So, we don't know. Maybe he was just mumbling I don't even remember the mumbling, but Vev did

Oh now I understand which episode we're talking about! Anya in her wedding dress singing, yes. I'm an idiot sometimes, let me tell ya! Yeah I really don't think his mumbling had anything to do with the singing episode at all. Maybe he was talking about his relationship with Anya and not about how he was the one who summoned Sweet. He could have just been saying he wished things would get better in their relationship before they got married. Or that he wished the thoughts of him turning out like his dad would go away and get better. Ha! Cracked that code didn't I?

[Jenni Lou]

Maybe he was talking about his relationship with Anya and not about how he was the one who summoned Sweet. He could have just been saying he wished things would get better in their relationship before they got married. Or that he wished the thoughts of him turning out like his dad would go away and get better. Ha! Cracked that code didn't I?

Or the writers just got sloppy like the often do.

Sounds logical to me anyway!

[holypotatoes]

Or the writers just got sloppy like the often do.

Sounds logical to me anyway!

Ah yes! Sounds very logical to me as well. I think all we can do is speculate now. We have to face the facts that we won't really find out what it meant unless one day we see one of the writers on the street and blatantly ask them about it. Which in that case I'm pretty sure we won't remember what we were talking about so we would stand there awkwardly and stare mumbling "you wrote on Buffy" with glazed over eyes. Maybe even pass out.

[Jenni Lou]

Yes. And the writers fully admit that they make mistakes and the fans oftem times know the details better than they themselves do.

After all, fan is short for fanatic.

[holypotatoes]

Yes. And the writers fully admit that they make mistakes and the fans oftem times know the details better than they themselves do.

After all, fan is short for fanatic.

Which I think all of us here can admit to being fanatic's over the show. Or else there wouldn't be an entire website dedicated to it after how many years? 4 now. And we've all seen the episodes how many times?! Too many to count. That being the reason we remember all the small details. So yeah fanatic would be the word.

[spuffylove147]

I think the fact that Xander summoned sweet was a little bit of a cop out, but that really wasn't the important part of the episode.

This episode is visually beautiful, amazingly well written, wonderfully acted, painstakingly worked on...etc etc etc. I get that people always praise the episode and yes, I can't just watch it over and over and over again without getting bored, but that doesn't take away the fact that it is an amazing episode. It was daring, and brave, and funny and wonderful...

Now that I am done, I realize that I haven't said a lot of truely insightful things here but there is definitely some OMWF bashing here, and i'm honestly surprised. Great wonderful episode.