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  • Xander saving the day in "Grave" (6.22)

    * Xander was the only one able to be there anyway. But I'm also not okay with Xander being credited with saving the world as if Giles hadn't had already done the heavy lifting. And whether or not someone else could talk Willow down is simply speculation. I consider that after Willow got the magic from Giles that Buffy also could have talked her down.


    Responses are from: https://www.buffyforums.net/sh...t=18321&page=3 posts #46-54:



    Dipstick

    Giles's Big Idea is to force the already homicidal, insane uber-witch with more power *and* all of the world's pain for her to feel?
    It was something like Giles gave Willow ?good' magic and that that magic would somehow turn DarkWillow into good Willow.

    The way that Giles intended on making his plan pay off was to have Xander get through to Willow but there's no indication that Giles told Xander this.
    When did Giles say his plan was to have Xander emotionally reach her? Xander was simply the one there and the one that ran after Willow

    It seems silly that we've been watching Big Bads come up with carefully thought-out plans of bringing about the apocalypse because it's a big deal to destroy the world but apparently, Willow has this buried temple complete with naked boobs (because this is what lesbians do) that she can call on in a span of like an hour.
    Well, we never had seen such a powerful witch as Willow. And the Judge was gotten together. And Acathla didn't exactly take long.

    I guess my only point is that it's a stupid, sappy, forced solution but damnit, it's *Xander's* stupid, sappy, forced moment and thus, a plus for Xander in the win column.
    Well, in-Buffyverse, it's a good moment for Xander. But that it's a completely forced moment is my problem with it.

    Too bad that the writers had to utterly grind Willow into the mud, make Giles's plan criminally stupid, and rob Buffy of a chance to bring Willow back emotionally like Willow did to her physically at the beginning of the season and give Buffy a chance to save the world with positivity and optimism as part of Buffy's journey to give Xander this moment.
    I don't consider that Buffy had to be the one to do that. Part of the point of Dark Willow is that Willow became more powerful than Buffy.



    KingofCretins

    Everybody else had already tried. Buffy, Anya, Dawn, Giles. All four of them had made separate attempts to talk Willow down. She found flaws in all of them, mostly connected to their supernatural aspects and her attitude toward them. She is depicted as very contemptuous of all of them. The first time Xander even got a chance to really talk to her was on the bluff; had he had a chance before then probably things never get that far anyway.
    You seem to be ignoring ? or simply forgot about ? that Giles' magic allowed Willow to be ?good'. The others talked to her when she was purely Dark Willow full of Dark Magic. Xander got to talk to her when she was full of good magic. Had Xander had talked to purely Dark Willow, she likely would have pointed out his relationship with Anya and how he dumped Anya at the altar. Something.

    Probably the most organic plot development in the last act of that season, IMO.
    Huh? How? Season 1: Buffy's afraid of the Master. Buffy kills the Master. Season 2: Buffy's relationship with Angel ends with him turning evil and her sending souled Angel to hell. There's also stuff with Spike and Dru. Season 3: Buffy's having problems with her popularity and problems with authority in general. It ends with her getting the Class Protector Award, the school fighting with her against the Mayor, and her killing the Mayor and destroying the school. Season 4: the group grows apart and Buffy gets involved with the Initiative. It ends with the group literally coming together and the Initiative being destroyed. Season 5: was about Family. Buffy was depressed. It ends with Buffy dying saving her sister in the process. Season 6: Was about Buffy coping with being in Heaven, Buffy's relationship with Spike, Willow's addiction to magic and power, and that's about it. Xander/Anya, Dawn's abandonment issues and kleptomania, etc. were all very secondary. So, the Season ends with Willow beating Buffy, Giles coming back and giving good magic to Willow, Willow trying to destroy the world so that no one feels emotional pain, and Xander talking Willow down. How is that at all organic? Season 7 was about Buffy's relationship with Spike, the Slayer line, Willow being scared of doing magic, and Buffy being the Best Slayer ever. It ends with the Potentials becoming Slayers, Willow becoming a ?goddess', and Spike destroying Sunnydale and closing the Hellmouth. I'd say the "Grave" (6.22) thing ? in terms of how the Big Bad is defeated is the least organic.



    TimeTravellingBunny

    at least he wasn't clinically depressed.
    How was Buffy clinically depressed in "Grave" (6.22)?



    PointMan

    To be fair, they kind of owed Xander fans that big moment since he hadn't had anything big in a good while.
    Meaning what? Xander got to do something in pretty much very Season Finale (don't know about S5 because Anya could have been the one to suggest using the Buffybot).

  • #2
    I think Giles' magic influx plan backfired in part as I never took it that Willow was trying to destroy the world until she could connect to everyone's pain and wanted it all to end...
    WILLOW: It's incredible. (panting) I mean, I am so juiced ... Giles, it's like ... no ... mortal person has ... ever had ... this much power. Ever. It's like I, I'm connected to everything ... I can feel ... it feels like ... I ... I can feel...

    She pauses and her smile begins to fade.

    WILLOW: ...everyone. Oh. Oh my God. All the emotion. All the pain. No, it, it's too much. It's just too much.
    GILES: (weakly) Willow ... It doesn't have to be ... like that. You ... you can stop it.

    Willow is bent over now with her hands on the floor as if in pain.

    WILLOW: (panting) Yeah. I, I can. I have to stop this. (getting up) I'll make it go away.
    GILES: Willow...
    WILLOW: Oh, you poor bastards!

    He did however give her the good magic that would allow her to connect with what humanity she had left, that was his plan...
    ANYA: You knew she'd going to take your powers all along.
    GILES: The gift I was given by the coven was the true essence of magic. Willow's magic came from a ... place of rage and power.
    ANYA: And vengeance. Don't forget vengeance.
    GILES: Oh. How could I? In any case, the magic she took from me tapped into ... the spark of humanity she had left. Helped her to feel again. Gave Xander the opportunity to ... reach her.

    But there was no indication that he had told Xander or that he would expect that someone would need to talk her down from trying to destroy the world, if anything he seemed shocked that that was her response to his magic...
    GILES: Willow ... I can see her. She took the magic I had and ... now ... I know where she is. I can feel what ... Oh, God.
    ANYA: Giles ... you have to rest.
    GILES: Silly girl. I'm dying.
    ANYA: (alarmed) No you're not.
    GILES: It was ... It was the only way. I thought we ... there'd be a chance ... now ... I know where Willow is. She's going to finish it.
    ANYA: Finish what?
    GILES: The world.

    They were lucky Xander meant as much to Willow as he did and that he was able to connect to her. Giles set her up to be reachable but it was Xander who saved the day. I don't think it would have worked for anyone else because it needed that connection past all the superpowers back to Willow herself, before everything, something fundamental about her, someone who knew that the Willow who stood on the bluff wanting to fix everything once cried because she realised she couldn't mend a broken crayon, she had to feel a connection to her own helplessness again and feel loved despite it. I always felt it was immensely powerful though bloomin' fortuitous a save!!!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by MikeB View Post
      TimeTravellingBunny

      How was Buffy clinically depressed in "Grave" (6.22)?
      The same way she was clinically depressed throughout season 6.
      You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

      Comment


      • #4
        How can you claim that Grave's ending is less "organic" than Spike getting a magic amulet from evil lawyers from another show that magically shoots out sunlight and kills every vampire (who are for some reason 100x weaker than they were in previous episodes)?

        Comment


        • #5
          Giles said that Willow could not be reached by violence. He let Willow drain him in order to open a crack in her, for someone to reach her humanity. And Buffy in season 6 is in no shape to relay all those emotions.
          So, Xander, Willow?s best friend was the one to reach out to her.
          The ending is very inspired actually: the world is saved not by use of violence, but by expressing feelings of love towards others.

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          • #6
            I've always liked the end of Season 6, Xander hadn't done anything this heroic or right since Prophesy Girl and he really needed a moment to really stand there & be counted.

            I liked the fact it wasn't super powers or death that brought about the end of the big bad - it was love, friendship and understanding.
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            • #7
              Stoney

              I think Giles' magic influx plan backfired in part as I never took it that Willow was trying to destroy the world until she could connect to everyone's pain and wanted it all to end...
              That's a good point. Ultimately, her increased magical powers are important in BtVS S7, AtS s4, and at times in BtVS S9. But at the time, Dark Willow was merely trying to kill Andrew and Jonathan and she was threatening and fighting the Scoobies because they were trying to prevent her from doing this.

              They were lucky Xander meant as much to Willow as he did and that he was able to connect to her. Giles set her up to be reachable but it was Xander who saved the day.
              Yeah, it seems Giles only helped save Andrew, Jonathan, and Anya but unintentionally put the entire world in danger of being destroyed.

              I don't think it would have worked for anyone else because it needed that connection past all the superpowers back to Willow herself, before everything, something fundamental about her, someone who knew that the Willow who stood on the bluff wanting to fix everything once cried because she realised she couldn't mend a broken crayon, she had to feel a connection to her own helplessness again and feel loved despite it. I always felt it was immensely powerful though bloomin' fortuitous a save!!!
              I consider that Xander was possibly more likely to do that than Buffy, but that Buffy could have also stopped Willow.



              TimeTravellingBunny

              My quote: How was Buffy clinically depressed in "Grave" (6.22)?

              The same way she was clinically depressed throughout season 6.
              That's simply incorrect. By "Gone" (6.11), Buffy wasn't suicidal anymore. That's all I'll say on that topic in this thread.



              Foyboy

              How can you claim that Grave's ending is less "organic" than Spike getting a magic amulet from evil lawyers from another show that magically shoots out sunlight and kills every vampire (who are for some reason 100x weaker than they were in previous episodes)?
              Well, that was only part of the episode. The Season was about Buffy's attachment to Spike, Spike being good and not evil, Willow needed to use her magic, and Buffy being the Best Slayer Ever because she was able to have those like Angel, Willow, Spike, and the other Scoobies love her. Angel, Willow, and Spike did those things that they did in "Chosen" (7.22) because they loved Buffy.

              BtVS S6 wasn't about Willow needing to feel the world's pain and it wasn't about the Willow-Xander relationship.



              buffyholic

              Giles said that Willow could not be reached by violence. He let Willow drain him in order to open a crack in her, for someone to reach her humanity. And Buffy in season 6 is in no shape to relay all those emotions.
              So, Xander, Willow?s best friend was the one to reach out to her.
              See the ending of "Grave" (6.22) again. Buffy was in shape to relay emotions. And Xander wasn't exactly fully emotionally stable. He was still dealing with his relationship with Anya, Buffy having been with Spike, etc.

              The ending is very inspired actually: the world is saved not by use of violence, but by expressing feelings of love towards others.
              That description also applies to "The Gift" (5.22).

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                I consider that Xander was possibly more likely to do that than Buffy, but that Buffy could have also stopped Willow.
                The thing is Buffy tried to get through to her in the magic box and she got absolutely nowhere. They showed Giles and Buffy having the chance to talk to Willow and it didn't even touch the edges. Now obviously when when Giles' spell made her vulnerable emotionally Xander connected with her and you could argue that Giles or Buffy would have stood an equal chance then but, I think, the fact that Xander took her back to a childhood memory was indicative of how it was necessary to connect with her at a moment of childish vulnerability and he was the only one who could do that. But I can see the argument that once she was emotionally vulnerable the other two could have had a chance I suppose.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                  * Xander was the only one able to be there anyway. But I'm also not okay with Xander being credited with saving the world as if Giles hadn't had already done the heavy lifting. And whether or not someone else could talk Willow down is simply speculation. I consider that after Willow got the magic from Giles that Buffy also could have talked her down.


                  TimeTravellingBunny

                  How was Buffy clinically depressed in "Grave" (6.22)?
                  You are right about Giles part in this story. But sometimes I wonder if you really even watched the show. Well, it really differs with what I have seen. And that is the first time I said that to anyone. I don't do that easy, because everyone has there own interpretation and perhaps it has been a while ago. It is not only your attitude towards Xander that is collored. I can understand that. Though obviously I disagree. But it was shown throughout the whole of S6 that Buffy is clinically depressed. It is the whole point of S6 to explore that angle. It is the same with your comment about how Angel could have been tortured with his soul. That is why they cursed him in the first place. The gypsies didn't put a soul on Angel to make him a better man, but to make him pay. Both huge things in the show and been made very clear. In this particular case it is very simple, Xander could talk Willow out of it because they were childhood friends. It is that simple.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    MikeB, it's hard enough having a discussion without you when you aren't trying to actively rewrite the episode. Giles didn't give Willow a dose of magic that allowed her to "be good", the episode doesn't say that and reason doesn't support it. His very words were that it "helped her to feel again". Feelings, one might note, are not always or exclusively good, as evidenced not least of which by the fact that Willow's first decision after being able to "feel again" is to decide to destroy the world. Before Giles dosed her, their problems were decidedly much more local.

                    Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                    Huh? How? Season 1: Buffy's afraid of the Master. Buffy kills the Master. Season 2: Buffy's relationship with Angel ends with him turning evil and her sending souled Angel to hell. There's also stuff with Spike and Dru. Season 3: Buffy's having problems with her popularity and problems with authority in general. It ends with her getting the Class Protector Award, the school fighting with her against the Mayor, and her killing the Mayor and destroying the school. Season 4: the group grows apart and Buffy gets involved with the Initiative. It ends with the group literally coming together and the Initiative being destroyed. Season 5: was about Family. Buffy was depressed. It ends with Buffy dying saving her sister in the process. Season 6: Was about Buffy coping with being in Heaven, Buffy's relationship with Spike, Willow's addiction to magic and power, and that's about it. Xander/Anya, Dawn's abandonment issues and kleptomania, etc. were all very secondary. So, the Season ends with Willow beating Buffy, Giles coming back and giving good magic to Willow, Willow trying to destroy the world so that no one feels emotional pain, and Xander talking Willow down. How is that at all organic? Season 7 was about Buffy's relationship with Spike, the Slayer line, Willow being scared of doing magic, and Buffy being the Best Slayer ever. It ends with the Potentials becoming Slayers, Willow becoming a ?goddess', and Spike destroying Sunnydale and closing the Hellmouth. I'd say the "Grave" (6.22) thing ? in terms of how the Big Bad is defeated is the least organic.
                    Just what is it that you think "organic plot development" means?
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                    • #11
                      I'll also add that if Xander had approached Willow before Willow was full of Good magic, Willow may have successfully killed him. Dawn was very vulnerable to Willow, but Giles was filled with power, Anya was a vengeance demon, and Buffy's the Slayer.




                      Koos

                      You are right about Giles part in this story. But sometimes I wonder if you really even watched the show.
                      Aren't these two sentences contradictory?

                      Well, it really differs with what I have seen.
                      I'd like an apology for that bolded part. Not liking Xander as much as you do doesn't meant that my "attitude towards Xander ? is collored" and that Angel argument has you seeming to confuse me with another poster.

                      It is not only your attitude towards Xander that is collored.
                      What do you mean by "colored"?.

                      But it was shown throughout the whole of S6 that Buffy is clinically depressed.
                      I never implied that she was never clinically depressed. I said something like it's incorrect that she was just as depressed in "Grave" (6.22) as she was in the beginning BtVS S6 episodes. Little to nothing suggests that she's clinically depressed in "Grave".

                      It is the same with your comment about how Angel could have been tortured with his soul. That is why they cursed him in the first place. The gypsies didn't put a soul on Angel to make him a better man, but to make him pay.
                      Here it seems you are confusing me with some other poster. I'm the one on this Board who always points out that Angel was cursed to punish him for all eternity and I also always point out that cursed Angel and souled Spike aren't comparable because Spike's soul was never meant to make him suffer.

                      In this particular case it is very simple, Xander could talk Willow out of it because they were childhood friends. It is that simple.
                      Huh? I never said that it was unrealistic that Xander could have talked Willow out of it. I said that Buffy possibly could have done that as well but that the episode made a situation in which only Xander could be the one to save the day because he's the only one around to do it. This is why I always say that his saving the day is forced.



                      KingofCretins

                      MikeB, it's hard enough having a discussion without you when you aren't trying to actively rewrite the episode.
                      I've never tried to rewrite an episode and unless you can actually point out a single example of my doing this, I'd like an apology and a retraction from you.

                      Giles didn't give Willow a dose of magic that allowed her to "be good", the episode doesn't say that and reason doesn't support it. His very words were that it "helped her to feel again".
                      Here's the whole scene: So, unless Giles was lying to Anya or somehow wrong, you are absolute incorrect and Giles DID give Willow a dose of magic that allowed her to "be good".

                      ANYA: Oh. You mean she's-
                      GILES: No, she's alive. It, uh ... the magic she took from me, it-it did what I hoped it would do.
                      ANYA: Oh. (getting it) You dosed her.
                      GILES: Yes.
                      ANYA: You knew she'd going to take your powers all along.
                      GILES: The gift I was given by the coven was the true essence of magic. Willow's magic came from a ... place of rage and power.
                      ANYA: And vengeance. Don't forget vengeance.
                      GILES: Oh. How could I? In any case, the magic she took from me tapped into ... the spark of humanity she had left. Helped her to feel again. Gave Xander the opportunity to ... reach her.
                      ANYA: Xander?
                      GILES: Yes. It was he who got to her in time. (smiling) He saved us all.
                      http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/tran.../122_tran.html

                      I guess it's debatable whether it was Good magic that Giles gave her but "The gift I was given by the coven was the true essence of magic. Willow's magic came from a ... place of rage and power."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                        I'll also add that if Xander had approached Willow before Willow was full of Good magic, Willow may have successfully killed him.
                        Willow could have successfully killed any of the scoobies if she had a mind to. That everyone survived was due in part to plot armor. Giles intervened at the perfect moment before Willow had a chance to finish Buffy off. Willow knocked Anya out instead of killing her for no reason apparently. Buffy intervened before Willow could kill Dawn. Willow had a mini-freak out after she drained Giles and ran off to end the world instead of finishing Giles off properly. If Willow had a mind to, she could have killed any of the scoobies when she was at the peak of her power. They all got a lucky save for some reason or another, so I don't see why you're so critical of Xander here.

                        Dawn was very vulnerable to Willow, but Giles was filled with power, Anya was a vengeance demon, and Buffy's the Slayer.
                        Being a Slayer, Vengance demon or having borrowed magic powers didn't allow them to survive Willow's onslaught. Willow had Anya knocked out, vengance demon or not. She certainly had the opportunity to kill her but chose not to. Buffy was knocked out and could have been finished off if Giles hadn't stepped in. Giles was knocked out when Willlow ran off to the temple of Proserpexa. Fate and plot armor intervined. Buffy got lucky that Giles had such great timing. Anya and Giles survived because Willow was too lazy or preoccupied to kill them or didn't want to for whatever reason. It had nothing to do with Xander being a puny human instead of a Slayer/demon/watcher.


                        Huh? I never said that it was unrealistic that Xander could have talked Willow out of it. I said that Buffy possibly could have done that as well but that the episode made a situation in which only Xander could be the one to save the day because he's the only one around to do it. This is why I always say that his saving the day is forced.
                        Mike, how would you define a "forced" situation? Do you think Spike wearing the amulet in Chosen to be forced? Do you think it was a forced situation that Olaf's hammer got upgraded to god status out of nowhere and suddenly became important? I can think of plenty of examples where the writing was more clumsy than Xander talking down Willow on kingman's bluff.

                        I'd like an apology for that bolded part. Not liking Xander as much as you do doesn't meant that my "attitude towards Xander ? is collored" and that Angel argument has you seeming to confuse me with another poster.
                        KingofCretins

                        I've never tried to rewrite an episode and unless you can actually point out a single example of my doing this, I'd like an apology and a retraction from you.
                        I don't know who you think you are demanding apologies and retractions from people in a thread. If you have a problem with something that's said, or you think you're being treated unfairly, report the post to a moderator and let them handle it. It's not your place to demand apologies from people.

                        Especially when both Koos and KingofCretins both have very valid points. It is often difficult to have a discussion with you because you do rewrite episodes and events to suit your favorite characters. I would say that most of this community has noticed this. I'm not trying to be nasty here, but this is why people sometimes get frustrated in discussions and I find it ridiculous that you would demand apologies from people when their (often more balanced and fair) interpretations of what happened in the show don't match your own.

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                        • #13
                          MikeB, Buffy was better by the end of season six but she still had ways to go, and she still had stuff to figure out. It was like Willow was saying to her in "Two to Go":

                          Willow: Oh, please! This is your pitch? Buffy, you hate it here as much as I do. I'm just more honest about it.
                          Buffy: That's not true.
                          Willow: You're trying to sell me on the world. The one where you lie to your friends when you're not trying to kill them? And you screw a vampire just to feel? And insane asylums are the comfy alternative? This world? Buffy, it's me. I know you were happier when you were in the ground. The only time you were ever at peace in your whole life is when you were dead. Until Willow brought you back.

                          She was in no shape or form to relay feelings of love to Willow. Xander had to be the one. And it was perfect for him too, since he was feeling impotent and useless in the last couple of episodes.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I’ve never tried to rewrite an episode and unless you can actually point out a single example of my doing this, I’d like an apology and a retraction from you.
                            Your theory that Spike cast a spell in Becoming to make Acathla swallow just the mansion where Angel was isn't rewriting?

                            I’d say the “Grave” (6.22) thing – in terms of how the Big Bad is defeated is the least organic.
                            So Angel bringing an amulet provided by the Big Bad of another TV show that has never been even mentioned on BTVS is for you an organic development but Xander managing to stop Willow by appealing to their life-long friendship is not?
                            Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                              Koos

                              Aren’t these two sentences contradictory?
                              No, they aren't.

                              Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                              I’d like an apology for that bolded part. Not liking Xander as much as you do doesn’t meant that my “attitude towards Xander … is collored” and that Angel argument has you seeming to confuse me with another poster.
                              Which bold part?

                              Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                              What do you mean by “colored”?.
                              That you hate Xander.


                              Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                              I never implied that she was never clinically depressed. I said something like it’s incorrect that she was just as depressed in “Grave” (6.22) as she was in the beginning BtVS S6 episodes. Little to nothing suggests that she’s clinically depressed in “Grave”.
                              It's a whole season long. Not just one episode. From the moment she was brought back from the dead. It isn't something that just go away and it isn't gone by the time Grave aired.

                              Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                              Here it seems you are confusing me with some other poster. I’m the one on this Board who always points out that Angel was cursed to punish him for all eternity and I also always point out that cursed Angel and souled Spike aren’t comparable because Spike’s soul was never meant to make him suffer.
                              Your post at almost the bottom of page: (at the bottom of the second post of yours from below the page)
                              https://www.buffyforums.net/sh...t=18482&page=5


                              I wrote: And what about Buffy and Willow's take on this? They knowingly were willing to torture Angel by having him being cursed again in the frist place.

                              You wrote: Huh? How were they torturing Angel by re-cursing him?

                              Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                              Huh? I never said that it was unrealistic that Xander could have talked Willow out of it. I said that Buffy possibly could have done that as well but that the episode made a situation in which only Xander could be the one to save the day because he’s the only one around to do it. This is why I always say that his saving the day is forced.
                              Xander could talk Willow out of it because they are childhood friends. It was the point of the scene, the way it was set up. Buffy isn't a childhood friend of Willow, hence she couldn't talk her out of it.
                              Last edited by Koos; 03-08-12, 01:09 AM.

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Vampire in Rug View Post
                                Mike, how would you define a "forced" situation?
                                Yes, I don't understand this either. Every situation is forced because this is a TV show and the writers deliberately construct scenes so that what they want to happen will happen. These characters don't have a mind of their own and everything is contrived to make the plot move in the direction the writer wants it to go in. So, yeah, Xander being the only one around to try and talk Willow down was "forced" in the sense that the writers purposely incapacitated all the other characters, but that goes for every single other scene in the show too.

                                All that matters is if the scenes that they are writing are true to the characterisation of the characters and that the emotion behind the scene feels natural and earned. And I think you'd be hard pressed to come up with any character that deserves to talk Willow down MORE than Xander or that it didn't make sense that he could.

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                                • #17
                                  Vampire in Rug

                                  My quote: I'll also add that if Xander had approached Willow before Willow was full of Good magic, Willow may have successfully killed him.

                                  Willow could have successfully killed any of the scoobies if she had a mind to. That everyone survived was due in part to plot armor.
                                  "Plot armor"? The only reason why Xander is there to save the world is because Buffy and the others are out of the equation.

                                  If Willow had a mind to, she could have killed any of the scoobies when she was at the peak of her power. They all got a lucky save for some reason or another, so I don't see why you're so critical of Xander here.
                                  Buffy and vengeance demon Anya are a lot more durable than Xander. Xander would have been easier to kill.

                                  Mike, how would you define a "forced" situation?
                                  "the episode made a situation in which only Xander could be the one to save the day because he's the only one around to do it."

                                  Do you think Spike wearing the amulet in Chosen to be forced?
                                  The amulet was deus ex machina; Spike wore it because Buffy shooed Angel away, Spike asked to wear it, and Buffy let him wear it.

                                  Do you think it was a forced situation that Olaf's hammer got upgraded to god status out of nowhere and suddenly became important?
                                  No, because we already saw what that Hammer could do.

                                  I can think of plenty of examples where the writing was more clumsy than Xander talking down Willow on kingman's bluff.
                                  I don't consider the writing clumsy: I consider that the situation was forced so that Xander could be the only one there to save the world. And in any sense, I consider that Giles is not given enough credit ? never on a Board or review have I ever seen him given any credit ? for saving the world.

                                  My quote: I'd like an apology for that bolded part. Not liking Xander as much as you do doesn't meant that my "attitude towards Xander ? is collored" and that Angel argument has you seeming to confuse me with another poster.

                                  ?????????????????..

                                  I've never tried to rewrite an episode and unless you can actually point out a single example of my doing this, I'd like an apology and a retraction from you.


                                  I don't know who you think you are demanding apologies and retractions from people in a thread. If you have a problem with something that's said, or you think you're being treated unfairly, report the post to a moderator and let them handle it. It's not your place to demand apologies from people.
                                  First off, I said "I'd like". Secondly, would it be fine if in threads instead of arguing points I simply say, "Well your attitude towards ___________ is colored" and therefore your arguments aren't legitimate."? because that's what is implied by saying my "attitude towards Xander ? is collored".

                                  It is often difficult to have a discussion with you because you do rewrite episodes and events to suit your favorite characters.
                                  You didn't give a single example.

                                  I would say that most of this community has noticed this.
                                  You speak for most of the Board posters and members on this subject? Are you PMing most of the Board?

                                  I'm not trying to be nasty here,
                                  You're implying that I'm biased against Xander and that that bias colors what I write about Xander and you state "you do rewrite episodes and events to suit your favorite characters" and don't give a single example. How is that not being nasty?

                                  this is why people sometimes get frustrated in discussions and I find it ridiculous that you would demand apologies from people when their (often more balanced and fair) interpretations of what happened in the show don't match your own.
                                  This is asinine to say the least. My problem is with saying that my "attitude towards Xander ? is collored" and therefore my arguments aren't legitimate. "[I]nterpretations of what happened in the show don't match your own": I wouldn't even label this hypocrisy. Those posters said something like my "attitude towards Xander ? is collored" because they don't like what I posted about Xander.



                                  buffyholic

                                  MikeB, Buffy was better by the end of season six but she still had ways to go, and she still had stuff to figure out. It was like Willow was saying to her in "Two to Go":

                                  Willow: Oh, please! This is your pitch? Buffy, you hate it here as much as I do. I'm just more honest about it.
                                  Buffy: That's not true.
                                  Willow: You're trying to sell me on the world. The one where you lie to your friends when you're not trying to kill them? And you screw a vampire just to feel? And insane asylums are the comfy alternative? This world? Buffy, it's me. I know you were happier when you were in the ground. The only time you were ever at peace in your whole life is when you were dead. Until Willow brought you back.

                                  She was in no shape or form to relay feelings of love to Willow. Xander had to be the one.
                                  Willow said that before she was filled with good magic. Willow almost certainly would have also said something nasty to Xander. Arguably, Xander was a bigger emotional mess. Buffy's declarations of love for Willow would have been more poignant, pertinent, moving, and powerful. Willow ripped Buffy from Heaven; Willow almost killed Dawn once and threatened to kill her Dawn; Willow just said a bunch of nasty stuff to Buffy.

                                  And it was perfect for him too, since he was feeling impotent and useless in the last couple of episodes.
                                  Huh? He had dumped Anya at the altar, came back expecting sympathy from Buffy and Willow and came back hoping to be with Anya again, saw Anya have sex with Spike and blamed Anya and Buffy and didn't take any responsibility for dumping Anya at the altar, wanted to kill Spike, and told Dawn that Spike tried to rape Buffy.



                                  Jack Shaftoe

                                  Your theory that Spike cast a spell in Becoming to make Acathla swallow just the mansion where Angel was isn't rewriting?
                                  That's not "rewriting". "Rewriting" would be like saying that ? for this thread topic ? that Anya beat Willow.

                                  My quote: I'd say the "Grave" (6.22) thing ? in terms of how the Big Bad is defeated is the least organic.

                                  So Angel bringing an amulet provided by the Big Bad of another TV show that has never been even mentioned on BTVS is for you an organic development but Xander managing to stop Willow by appealing to their life-long friendship is not?
                                  Buffy's relationships with Angel, Willow, and Spike are the reason she was able to beat the First Evil. Buffy could have killed Angel and Spike. Buffy was the one who got Willow to use magic again. Buffy is the reason Willow became a witch. Buffy refused to sacrifice Willow in order to prevent the Mayor from trying to eat everyone in Sunnydale.



                                  Koos

                                  My quote: Aren't these two sentences contradictory?

                                  No, they aren't.
                                  Yes, they are.

                                  Which bold part?
                                  The bold part.

                                  My quote: What do you mean by "colored"?.

                                  That you hate Xander.
                                  I don't hate Xander. My not liking Xander as you do doesn't make my regard for Xander "colored".

                                  My quote: I never implied that she was never clinically depressed. I said something like it's incorrect that she was just as depressed in "Grave" (6.22) as she was in the beginning BtVS S6 episodes. Little to nothing suggests that she's clinically depressed in "Grave".

                                  It's a whole season long. Not just one episode. From the moment she was brought back from the dead. It isn't something that just go away and it isn't gone by the time Grave aired.
                                  According to what?

                                  I wrote: And what about Buffy and Willow's take on this? They knowingly were willing to torture Angel by having him being cursed again in the frist place.

                                  You wrote: Huh? How were they torturing Angel by re-cursing him?
                                  Would you have rather they dusted him? Anyway, your saying such means that you believe that "Angel" is "Angelus who is tortured by the curse".

                                  Xander could talk Willow out of it because they are childhood friends. It was the point of the scene, the way it was set up. Buffy isn't a childhood friend of Willow, hence she couldn't talk her out of it.
                                  Willow was closer to Buffy than she was to Xander. The point of the scene was for Xander to save the world.



                                  vampmogs

                                  Xander being the only one around to try and talk Willow down was "forced" in the sense that the writers purposely incapacitated all the other characters, but that goes for every single other scene in the show too.
                                  This is ludicrous: could Giles, Xander, or Willow have defeated the Master? Could Xander or Willow been able to beat Drusilla? Without Willow, Buffy, and Giles, how was Adam going to be beaten? Buffy was the only one of the Scoobies who could lift the Troll Hammer. "The Zeppo" and "Grave" are two episodes that force a situation in which only Xander is there. And Spike could have easily dusted Angel in "Becoming Part II" (2.22) but I can reason that he knew that Dru wouldn't like that.

                                  And I think you'd be hard pressed to come up with any character that deserves to talk Willow down MORE than Xander
                                  Buffy. Willow remained in Sunnydale because of Buffy. Willow is still alive because of Buffy. Willow gained ?coolness' and confidence because of Buffy.

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                                    Buffy and vengeance demon Anya are a lot more durable than Xander. Xander would have been easier to kill.
                                    Nothing could make it more clear that you don't understand the episode at all. By even framing the question in terms of who would be best to "go up against" Willow establishes that you have no idea why Xander went in the first place, and in turn, why it had to be Xander in the first place.

                                    Nobody. Nobody. Was going to be able to march up that bluff and stand Willow down by force of arms. She was, at that point, the Buffyverse equivalent of the Bride's Hattori Hanzo sword (If on your journey, you should encounter God, God will be cut). Not Buffy, not Faith, not superpowered Giles, not Angel, so help us all, not even Spike could have gone up there to try to force Willow to yield. And, now this part is important, had any of them shown up there even with an open hand, Willow would have immediately assumed they were there to fight her and closed herself off.

                                    Do you not see it? The reason why it had to be Xander, could only be Xander is because he didn't actually try to stop her at all. He just wanted to be with her. He placed a bet that she wouldn't be able to destroy the world if it meant looking him in the eye and destroying him right along with it, but he was absolutely prepared to be wrong; he even said so. And his very (supernatural) insignificance was the exact camouflage that allows him to even try, the fact that Willow can scoff at his approach rather than being on guard for attack.

                                    All those other people with whom Buffy had decided she had a beef -- Giles, the erstwhile mentor; Buffy, the hypocrite; etc -- even if they had shown up with an open hand, she wouldn't have listened because she wanted to fight them, to punish them. Xander... Xander is just Xander. He's always just Xander, the way she used to always be just Willow. That was the only way in, period. Everybody else she knew she would have had some definite resentment toward that would have made it impossible to reach her emotionally, and everybody else would have lost had they tried to fight her.

                                    The part you clearly aren't getting is the fact that Xander has relationships with other characters that actually matter to those characters, and you aren't seeing it because of your abject disdain for the character. If you seriously come away from that episode thinking it was "forced" on the basis that Xander was the only one physically, geographically there, then you've failed Buffy 101, basically. It may have been "forced", but only in the sense that it was "forced" by the years of long established text that Willow and Xander were the closest and oldest tied of any two characters on the show.

                                    Xander and Willow remind me of Chuck and Morgan a little bit, for fans of "Chuck", but for one scene in particular, in an episode where Chuck's spy life (and his crush on his handler that came with it) have actually driven a wedge between him and Morgan. "Morgan is my family," he told her, "before you got here, and long after you're gone, Morgan is my family". That applies to Xander and Willow as well. As close as either of them ever get to Buffy... before she got there, and long after she's gone, they would still be Xander and Willow.

                                    Buffy. Willow remained in Sunnydale because of Buffy. Willow is still alive because of Buffy. Willow gained ‘coolness’ and confidence because of Buffy.
                                    This is basically an "if your aunt had nuts she'd be your uncle" sort of wish, because in the actual episode that actually aired, there was nobody who Willow would have been less likely to heed than Buffy at that point. This plays out explicitly in the episode, when Willow dismisses Buffy as just wanting to go down fighting, and gives her the uberwitch equivalent of "I brought you into this world, I'll take you out". Don't you see how thick a wall that would have been for Buffy to try to penetrate emotionally for Willow to even care what she thought on any subject at that point?
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                                    • #19
                                      KingofCretins

                                      * I'm going to ignore all of your comments about my having a bias against Xander (and you make a crack as if I'd think that Spike would have been able to talk Willow down).

                                      * My quote: Buffy and vengeance demon Anya are a lot more durable than Xander. Xander would have been easier to kill.

                                      It seems you missed my point. I wasn't referring to what happened on the bluff. I was referring to Willow ? before getting full of good magic ? beating Buffy and Anya. My point is that if Xander had confronted her before Giles got her full of good magic, she very likely would have beaten up Xander, and it's possible she would have managed to actually kill Xander.

                                      Here's the real distinction: What do you think would have happened if Xander had confronted Willow before Giles showed up?

                                      you have no idea why Xander went in the first place, and in turn, why it had to be Xander in the first place.
                                      Xander was the only one who could have gone there. The others were otherwise occupied. It was pretty much either Xander or Anya.

                                      Do you not see it? The reason why it had to be Xander, could only be Xander is because he didn't actually try to stop her at all.
                                      This is simply untrue. He went there to stop her; he simply didn't try to fight her.

                                      If you seriously come away from that episode thinking it was "forced" on the basis that Xander was the only one physically, geographically there, then you've failed Buffy 101, basically.
                                      It was forced.

                                      My point is that if Buffy had been able to be on that bluff, she likely could have talked Willow down. My point is that it was a situation in which only Xander could save the world because he was the only one able to be around to do that. Also, my point is that Giles actually did the heavy lifting.


                                      * My quote: Buffy. Willow remained in Sunnydale because of Buffy. Willow is still alive because of Buffy. Willow gained ?coolness' and confidence because of Buffy.

                                      Again, your arguments don't refer to what could have happened on that bluff if Buffy had been able to be there.

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                                      • #20
                                        MikeB, Willow only started trying to destroy the world because of being able to feel everything through taking the magic from Giles. It is a totally different 'what if' without him coming and doing that because there is no guide as to what she would have done once she had killed Andrew and Jonathan too. The world originally wasn't in danger. Giles wanted her to take the good magic so that she was able to 'feel' again so they could try to get through to her but didn't expect it to push her over the edge (he was blatantly surprised and shocked by her reaction and thought they were all going to die).

                                        Is it possible once she had that connection to her feelings that one of the others may have been able to get through to her by doing exactly the same thing? Maybe but it is not very likely. Xander wasn't superpowered, he was just her oldest friend that she was going to have to tear through to do what she was doing and that was what broke her down. Buffy or Giles would have been a 'threat' and she would not have been as likely to connect emotionally to how she felt about them and, more importantly, they would have had a harder time convincing her that they cared about her and not about whether she finished off what she was doing. She has always known them within the context of saving the world whereas Xander is and always has been her friend. He is the one who has chosen to spend his entire childhood with her, his love is pretty unquestionable to her. He couldn't stop her in any way physically or magically. She knew that he was killing himself by doing what he was and that it wouldn't save the world if he did it, she knew, without any doubt, that he was there because he loved her and if he was going to die by her hand he chose to do it at her side. That is what forced her to acknowledge and connect to how much she loved him too. Anyone else's presence would have been seen as an intention to stop her and would therefore have been more likely than not to fail.

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