The parallel universe in which season 7 was a great season (With or without shrimp)

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I'm sure we had a thread about this before but resurrecting it?.

People slag off season 7 a lot. But what would you have wanted to see changed in order to make it good? Feel free to say what you think was wrong with the season, but offer alternatives too. So, if you think The First was a lame villain, what do you think the scoobies should have faced at this time in their careers? Or do you think there were ways the First could have been turned into a good villain? Think Spike took up too much screen time? Then who do you think should have had more story focus, and what should have happened to them?

[tangent]

Okay. first thoughts

1. Less potentials.

Some of the potentials were interesting if not universely likable (Kennedy, Rhona and Amanda spring to mind) but there were just too darn many of them for any one of them to really get a good introduction and for us to get to know them better. What i would have instead would be a core of maybe 3 0r 4 potentials with reports of others perhaps getting bumped off in other parts of the world now and then as a reminder of scale

2. Less speeches

The potential's training trips were fun and a few more practical lessons replacing the speechfest that happens towards the back of the season would be a huge improvement.

3. Keep the threat coming

There's a definite lull in the season between (i'd say) Showtime and Get it Done where the biggest of all bads basically just sits around and doesn't do an awful lot. In fact the sense of threat doesn't really get back on track until Caleb's arrival. To combat this i would introduce Caleb a lot earlier, not too long after the ubervamp gets it, as i think he could inject a little pace and menace back into this section.

4. The Scythe

Tacked on? felt like it to me. Introduce at least the concept, the rumour of it early in the season, let us forget about it and then springit on us. Much better affect.

[Moscow Watcher]

Actually, I think that season 7 is one of the best. Three last seasons are my faves. But if I could change something, it would be... (I suppose we aren't limited to only one alteration)

1. I'd make Amber Benson change her mind and return to season 7. I rooted for Willow\Tara and I'd be happy to see their reunion.

2. I'd develop Xander as a "storyteller", a chronicler of Buffy's struggles and battles. Actually, I was expecting it from the very beginning, and it seemed very logical for me, because he was always making pop-culture references and he has great sense of humor and such development could provide him with compelling storylines and give the main arc an interesting reference point.

3. I'd handle Angel's crossover more subtly. His scenes in Chosen are incredibly grating. He has just lost his son and sold his friends to evil law firm - and here he is, "I started it, the whole having a soul, before it was all the cool new thing". It sounded incredibly cheap, IMHO.

I don't think I want to change anything in Spuffy storyarc. I think Joss handled it just perfectly, with the right balance of humor and pathos, with just enough gratification to make shippers happy yet hungry for more.

And I think that thematically, the season is a great summing up of Buffy's journey. Story-wise, it's a great twist: the best way to save the world is changing it for the better. And on the metaphorical level the empowerment of a whole generation of slayers works beautifully as a metaphor of feminism ideology crossing over to mainstream.
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MICHIGAN MARIJUANA DISPENSARY

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Tangent, I totally agree about your points. More about fewer potentials would have been a lot better. I felt we never really got to know them. More about their lives before they came to Sunnydale, and more about how they fit in to the Scoobies and relate to them. Basically, integrating them better into the scenario ? eg loved having the Amanda/Dawn stuff in potential?but then nothing.

Actually, "fewer false starts" would be one of my suggestions: there are various things that get introduced then never properly fleshed out. Such as Dawn's friends in the first episode (I think they're maybe mentioned a few times, but never seen again as far as I remember). Then there's the whole "it's not time for Spike yet". So much build up, no pay off. Waffly and vague?if there was a plan for spike, even if it was never completed, I want to know what it was. Especially if it was something surprising ? perhaps relating to the way he got his soul? Or something else specific.

My second alternation is related to this Keep it concrete. That applies particularly to the First Evil ? I think they should've been more specific about what the First Evil is. Waffly vagueness about ultimate evil doesn't wash on Buffy, where all evil things tend to have their own unique personalities and sets of motivations. Ultimate evil is something that gets mocked as an idea on the show ("I'm baddy bad bad, does it make you horny", and Buffy's dismissal of the First in season 3: you're evil, I get it, do we have to chat about it all day).

So in order to work, I think the First should've been something that has more of an individual flavour. Andrew asks it various questions like "are you made up of all the evil impulses of humans", which I think is actually an interesting direction! Let's say the first was made up of the potential for evil in all of us?without other beings (humans, other demons) it wouldn't exist, so it doesn't want to destroy the world, but instead, say, lives to make us suffer?because suffering leads to hate (or is it the other way around First you get the women, then you get the power?).

I liked the idea of it appearing as dead people, but perhaps if they'd had the first only knowing what those dead people know?so, the various incarnations of the first need someone else to help them actually put any plan in motion? That's why they need Caleb, to help them act coherently? Something more symbiotic than just filling him with evol power perhaps.

The continuity issues with the slayer line would've been easy to sort out, so I won't bother going into that. It bugs me, but not as much as the grand vagueness of the First Evil in general. Perhaps if the First Evil could be linked more to the original demons? Eg it was the ruler of them, or perhaps the one who suggested they come to earth in the first place? It'd be cool to link it back to the history of demons, so the First would be like the ultimate demon?and then link that in with the slayer line, so you've got this sense of both where demons come from and where slayers come from, and how their destinies intertwine.

3. Keep the threat coming

There's a definite lull in the season between (i'd say) Showtime and Get it Done where the biggest of all bads basically just sits around and doesn't do an awful lot in fact the sense of threat doesn't really get back on track until Caleb's arrival. To combat this i would introduce Caleb a lot earlier not too long after the ubervamp gets it as i think he could inject a little pace and menace back into this section.

Very true ? I'd connect that to the wooliness of the First's plan and motivations. If the First had had a more structured and time-sensitive plan (eg like the Mayor having a timetable for his ascension and certain definite tasks he has to get done at certain times) then they could've maintained the tension.

4. The Scythe

Tacked on? felt like it to me. Introduce at least the concept, the rumour of it early in the season, let us forget about it and then springit on us. Much better affect.

The scythe has a little bit of tacked onness to it?but the Guardians far more so. If this season could've followed the intertwined destinies of slayers and demons (and watchers too, giving Giles more to do!) then perhaps they could've seeded the scythe and guardian stuff through the season. EG when Buffy goes through the portal to see the old watchers, there could've been some mysterious other presence that turns out to be the guardians? Also, why didn't the guardians ever intervene?? Useless!

[KingofCretins]

First and foremost, there would be no Robin Wood character. I honestly feel, as good a job as DB Woodside did, the character didn't do a single thing that couldn't have been done by a scooby. He had a story arc that culminated in one of the most universally despised episodes of the televised seasons -- was that worth it?

Likewise, fewer potentials, if any, in Sunnydale. I really *loved* the fact that they introduced a threat to the line, but I think they created an unmanageable problem by deciding to start sending all these kids to Sunnydale for Buffy to deal with. They really needed to stop adding to this list earlier. No more than 2 to 4 of these characters should have even had speaking parts if they could help it -- sorry about the SAG points, girls!

No unfinished plot points, like making Spike look important to the First's plans and then ultimately doing nothing with it. Or Beljoxa's Eye. Or any number
of things.

I don't mind the scythe, since Joss established something in his canon-ish miniseries "Fray" -- but, yeah, introducing it as a clear deus ex and then actually having it *in a stone* was a bit much.

[ykickamoocow]

Simple. Less Spike is a must, more original character interaction and if possible fewer irritating potentials.

[holypotatoes]

I absolutely can't stand the most of season 7. Once the potentials start to come I basically stop watching. As I've stated before. So that would be the 1st thing I'd get rid of. The one thing I was excited about in the 1st episode was the ending where they went through all of the big bads over the years and then all of a sudden there was Buffy as the 1st! I was waiting for Buffy as the 1st to show up the entire time and screw with the scoobies but it never really did until the very end, and even then it didn't do much but only talk to Caleb or Buffy. If I could have changed what the 1st was like I would've had it find a way to turn corporeal. The season was soooo jumpy about which one was the big bad of the season. I wished they would've just made the 1st the big bad and not have the Uber vamp being the big bad then all of a sudden Caleb was the big bad. They didn't spend enough time on using one of them and making an arc for it. The only one they spent some time on was the Uber vamp and how it could just kick Buffy's ass but when Caleb showed up Buffy's just able to dust the vamp with no problem?!!!! Please! PS I liked the scythe. I've been waiting the entire series for Buffy to King Arthur something out of a stone.

M_P

[ykickamoocow]

I absolutely can't stand the most of season 7. Once the potentials start to come I basically stop watching. As I've stated before. So that would be the 1st thing I'd get rid of. The one thing I was excited about in the 1st episode was the ending where they went through all of the big bads over the years and then all of a sudden there was Buffy as the 1st! I was waiting for Buffy as the 1st to show up the entire time and screw with the scoobies but it never really did until the very end, and even then it didn't do much but only talk to Caleb or Buffy. If I could have changed what the 1st was like I would've had it find a way to turn corporeal. The season was soooo jumpy about which one was the big bad of the season. I wished they would've just made the 1st the big bad and not have the Uber vamp being the big bad then all of a sudden Caleb was the big bad. They didn't spend enough time on using one of them and making an arc for it. The only one they spent some time on was the Uber vamp and how it could just kick Buffy's ass but when Caleb showed up Buffy's just able to dust the vamp with no problem?!!!! Please! PS I liked the scythe. I've been waiting the entire series for Buffy to King Arthur something out of a stone.

M_P

Even Anya was able to dust Uber Vampires easily in the last episode.

[spuffbeste]

Actually, I like the season 7.But I'd want to change some parts of the season. First of all, I'd change the episode that The First controls Spike and then Buffy finds out etc. I didn't like it at all. I found it so ridiculous that Spike's chip didn't work at the moment he's siring. Also, in the end of the season I would make Oz to come back. I know it sounds absurd. But Oz is one of my favourite characters and maybe Willow would need him when Tara was not around them any more. I would also cut the relationship between Willow and Kennedy. I don't think they look pretty together...What is more, I would make Spike and Buffy's relationship stronger. I know in this season Buffy and Spike have the strongest relationship than ever but I'd make them at least kiss in the episode, Touched when Spike finishes the speech about Buffy.

[selenspuffy]

Actually, I like the season 7.But I'd want to change some parts of the season.....in the end of the season I would make Oz to come back. I know it sounds absurd. But Oz is one of my favourite characters and maybe Willow would need him when Tara was not around them any more. I would also cut the relationship between Willow and Kennedy. I don't think they look pretty together...What is more, I would make Spike and Buffy's relationship stronger. I know in this season Buffy and Spike have the strongest relationship than ever but I'd make them at least kiss in the episode, Touched when Spike finishes the speech about Buffy.

All of those are really great ideas Beste!
First of all, The last part of your writing is the part that I most liked! There should have been a kissing part! Strongest relationship than ever is there also like you said..and that would have been great if Oz came! I mean Willow may say sorry to Kennedy then run to Oz and hug&kiss him that'd have been greatt!!!

[DigitalLeonardo]

Wow, I really disliked this season...

1. Give Spike less of a story line. There was pretty much more Spike-centric episodes then Buffy ones this season and it really brought the season down for me. I thought they relyed on him way to much, and rather then getting full round stories on Xander, Dawn, Anya and Willow, we got puffy Spike stories that just crossed into Angel season 5 with out really achiving a point.

Anya was given really one episode for her full development, don't get me wrong, it was one of the highlights of the season, but afterwards she was kinda pushed aside.

2. The speeches, rewatching there were alot of random epic speeches that Buffy threw off. I get some of them were actually imporant, but some were just a waste and kinda a blah recap.

3. I agree about the scythe. It was way to easy for this information about it, you would have figured it would be something rumored about a few seasons prior.

Someone mentioned use Angel's cross over better? I think the writers did it fine. They couldn't have all that tension on Buffy since not everyone watches both series, I didn't, so it would have been a real waste of time and confusion for Angel to be spewing off random facts that everyone wouldn't get.

I would have liked Cordelia... I know season 4 of Angel was a poor season for Cordelia and if she would have came on Buffy it would have made NO sense, but it felt weird that she never returned after season 3.

The last few episodes of the season rocked, and so did the first few. It was that gapping middle that kinda drew out the season. Plus everything felt a bit cheaper and more rushed, like people were stopping to care.

[Sosa lola]

1- Make it into two seasons:

There was so much happening that 22 episodes weren't enough to cover.

2- Re-write Angel coming over.

He acted stupidly. And seriously, he shouldn't be there.

3- No amulet.

Stupid, stupid, last minute thought idea.

4- The Scythe.

I think it's a cool weapon. But I'd re-write that story one more time.

5- No new romance for Willow.

I think it wasn't needed. Willow could have gained her confidence with the help of Xander or Dawn. Simply to the those two more screen time. I'd love if it was Dawn. She showed obvious distrust toward Willow in Same Time, Same Place. I wish they kept that going, then had her be the one to help Willow out in The Killer in Me.

6- No The First Giles stupid sub-plot.

Because it was wasted and stupid.

7- An explanation to Giles' weird behavior.

I understand why people call him PodGiles, however, his actions could be in character if the writers gave us a reason why he acted like that.

8- Re-writing the last Empty places scene.

You want Spike to be Buffy's white knight? Fine. Just don't ruin all the characters for it. And Buffy shouldn't always be right, that makes her all Superman-ny.

[Mabus]

Er...I guess I'll have to make my own thread about it. Not sure it'd be on topic in this one. The Spike thing wasn't clear enough, but after I thought about it I understood exactly what the First had in mind for him. So, um...better explanation of why Spike was important would be a key issue.

[KingofCretins]

I would have probably not re-written a page of the first eight episodes of the season. It's with "Never Leave Me" that it started to circle the bowl. Not because that episode was bad on its face, but because it was the launch of story arcs that they clearly hadn't tightened down properly and the beginning of the completely disappointing shunting of Xander, Giles, and even Willow to roles they are all lucky they already had their SAG cards before playing.

I had hoped that the First's plan for Spike was going to be revealed to connect all the way back to its wish to corrupt Angel in Season 3 -- that there was some ritual importance to corrupting a vampire with a soul, that perhaps making one do evil willingly would somehow enable the First to carry out some broader plan. It would have been nice to have there have been *some* point to its fixation on Spike, since ultimately, all it had was the trigger, and it never bothered to use it.

I think it was a big mistake to set the rules for the First the way they did. As I said on a BuffyWorld thread, they could have made it noncorporeal without making it insubstantial, capable of acting directly through magic or something -- I always liked the idea that the performance Dawn got was the First itself messing with her. I mean, how does it 'devour', anyway? That's a pretty dubious expression to describe an entity that can't do anything but make remarks, even if the devouring is figurative.

[Enisy]

I'd take S7 over S4 or S1 any day, but yeah, some improvements are definitely needed...

- Give less screentime to the Potentials, if you must have them there at all.

- Give Willow, Xander, Anya, Dawn and Giles something to do. As much as I love Buffy and Spike, they can't hold a season on their own, and having the Scoobies just sitting around in the show's last season is just inexcusable.

- Have Spike interact with people other than Buffy. Spike's a sweetheart to his women and a prick to everyone else, and I felt like we were only seeing the former side this season (and only the latter side in Season 5 of Angel).

- Either remove or finish the dropped storylines. (Dawn's character development, Spike's trigger, Beljoxa's eye, The First Giles etc.)

- Improve the lighting. Am I the only one who noticed how hideous the lighting was in comparison to previous seasons?

- Convince Amber Benson to come back for that subplot, and ditch Willow/Kennedy. Or just ditch Willow/Kennedy and focus on Willow's recovery.

- Redesign the Ubervamps to look more... intimidating?

- Have the First mess with people in more creative and fruitful ways. Joss was pretty much the only writer who used it to its full effect, in "Lessons" and "Chosen". All of its scenes could've been as powerful as Drusilla stroking Spike's cheek and telling him "he'll always be in the dark with her" -- instead we get cliches like "What makes you think you'll be any good at all in this world?"

- If it's the attempted rape you want Spike and Buffy to get over, stop pretending it didn't transpire. After the first few episodes of the season, the bathroom scene became the show's Voldemort; no-one would dare bring it up, and it would even get chopped from shooting scripts where it was addressed. Have Spike avoiding Buffy more (like James Marsters suggested), have the First appear as Spike while Buffy's taking a bath, do something. I love Spike/Buffy, but their Instant Trust in that season was almost as difficult to buy as Angel/Buffy's Instant Love in seasons 1 and 2.

- If the above had been executed properly, it may have been possible to include some kissage or more obvious UST. Watering down the only two remaining ships with sexual chemistry (Spike/Buffy and Xander/Anya) did not the ratings improve. It wasn't a case of the actors "not selling it" either -- James and Sarah were selling it just fine in their introduction in "Storyteller", as were Nicholas and Emma in "Touched".

[Veverka]

I don't mind the scythe, the guardians feel fake.
I'd bring in Caleb sooner.

And I wouldn't have the intro 'previously' go for five minutes every time!

[KingofCretins]

- Have the First mess with people in more creative and fruitful ways. Joss was pretty much the only writer who used it to its full effect, in "Lessons" and "Chosen". All of its scenes could've been as powerful as Drusilla stroking Spike's cheek and telling him "he'll always be in the dark with her" -- instead we get cliches like "What makes you think you'll be any good at all in this world?"

It was written to full effect in "Conversations", obviously, since it was actually scary there. But, yeah, generally the First was so poorly conceived that, by "Chosen", it was actually the butt of a joke ("the Taunter").

- If it's the attempted rape you want Spike and Buffy to get over, stop pretending it didn't transpire. After the first few episodes of the season, the bathroom scene became the show's Voldemort; no-one would dare bring it up, and it would even get chopped from shooting scripts where it was addressed. Have Spike avoiding Buffy more (like James Marsters suggested), have the First appear as Spike while Buffy's taking a bath, do something. I love Spike/Buffy, but their Instant Trust in that season was almost as difficult to buy as Angel/Buffy's Instant Love in seasons 1 and 2.

Here's the thing -- there was a pro-Spuffy agenda to the season. A vast majority of fans considered "Seeing Red" a permanent deal-breaker for the 'ship, if only for the symbolic implications. If they wanted Spuffy to be the huge driving interpersonal dynamic, then there was no choice other than to basically pretend it never happened.

I didn't know about it being dropped from scripts, but it doesn't surprise me -- I love the mental image from TWOP of Marti Noxon drawing "Buffy loves Spike" on a purple notebook in glitter pen during story meetings -- since, again, you can't remind people if you want them to buy into their Season 7 codependency.

I think the bathroom idea is liquid awesome (not just because, hello, SMG in a bath again) because it is the kind of 'hit them where they live' thing that the First should have been doing *daily*.

Oh, another well-written First -- the Mayor with Faith. Granted, though, that may have just given Harry Groener a brief outline of what the First is and he might have just improvised the whole scene, because he is simply the best guest star on the show, ever.

But, yeah, as far as I can tell, ignoring "Seeing Red" was basically a concession on the part of the writing team that they simply couldn't pay that the acknowledgement it deserved *and* convince the audience to buy into this lasting connection between Spike and Buffy.

[Enisy]

Here's the thing -- there was a pro-Spuffy agenda to the season. A vast majority of fans considered "Seeing Red" a permanent deal-breaker for the 'ship, if only for the symbolic implications. If they wanted Spuffy to be the huge driving interpersonal dynamic, then there was no choice other than to basically pretend it never happened.

I didn't know about it being dropped from scripts, but it doesn't surprise me -- I love the mental image from TWOP of Marti Noxon drawing "Buffy loves Spike" on a purple notebook in glitter pen during story meetings -- since, again, you can't remind people if you want them to buy into their Season 7 codependency.

But that dismission on the writers' part weakened Spike and Buffy's mutual investment considerably. Many of the later scenes were designed as a response to the attempted rape, like Spike and Buffy's night together in "Touched" and "Chosen", and they lost impact because we'd been pretending that the attempted rape didn't transpire for an entire season.

I think the bathroom idea is liquid awesome (not just because, hello, SMG in a bath again) because it is the kind of 'hit them where they live' thing that the First should have been doing *daily*.

Yep. There are fanfics exploring that idea, and I was pulling my hair while reading them, because they really demonstrated how much lost potential there was to that villain, and that season.

But, yeah, as far as I can tell, ignoring "Seeing Red" was basically a concession on the part of the writing team that they simply couldn't pay that the acknowledgement it deserved *and* convince the audience to buy into this lasting connection between Spike and Buffy.

Well, I had trouble buying into their lasting connection because of that lack of acknowledgement. Most Angel/Buffy fans think the issue wasn't properly addressed because Buffy gave Spike the Angel treatment -- forgiving him for everything he did while soulless on principle. I think it wasn't properly addressed because the writers chickened out. Buffy knew soulless Spike first, so it would be difficult for her to make the distinction, and Spike wouldn't trust himself around Buffy, after everything he'd done (as James Marsters pointed out). That would give their interaction so much juice. Unfortunately, the writers didn't seem to have mapped out their S7 relationship beyond "I could never trust you enough to be love" --> trust --> "I love you", and they probably thought they could keep the audience interested as long as they postponed the three magic words.

[KingofCretins]

They aimed too high. If they wanted to give "Seeing Red" the attention it deserved, the arc in Season 7 would have been a build up *to* trust, and not to, ostensibly, love. Nothing happened to earn that trust back.

All relations on Buffy are human relations. The metaphorical structure is implicit enough that the audience is usually not asked to take the metaphors literally to properly respond to the characters.

For instance, when Angel turned into Angelus, he was equally acceptable in the context (vampire with a soul turned evil vampire killing watonly), and in the metaphor (boyfriend who got in a girl's pants and then threw her away).

When Xander turned into a hyena, he was equally acceptable in the context (guy possessed by a predatory animal spirit acting on instinct) and in the metaphor (teenage boy with a herd mentality taking pleasure in being cruel).

When those things were written, though, the writers kept the understanding that the character still *had to be acceptable* both metaphorically and contextually. That's why Xander *doesn't* take part in eating the principal, and it's why Angelus killing Jenny is for huge shock value and he *doesn't* kill any of the main characters of.

With Spike, they forgot about this. They had a character who was (nominally) acceptable in the context (soulless vampire incapable of true human empathy try to rape a former lover), but was completely unacceptable in the metaphor (the ex-boyfriend who just doesn't get it and tries to rape a woman in her bathroom).

In Season 7, though, we're given only a contextual explanation for Buffy and Spike trusting each other or interacting at all -- he has a soul now!. There is no metaphorically tenable explanation, no way to justify two real human people interacting that way. And that lost a *lot* of good will from fans.

So, if they wanted to do it right, Season 7 would have been Spike working his way back up to the point that he and Buffy got to in "Never Leave Me" -- that she thinks he's changed, has seen it, and believes in him. The idea of there ever being a relationship there would have to be left entirely to the fans, because you could never really justify it in a way acceptable to the metaphorical structure.

[Enisy]

I don't think there was any metaphor to be found in the bathroom scene; it was to be taken literally (that is, as "soulless vampire incapable of true human empathy trying to rape a former lover").

Joss Whedon: I love Season 6. It's really important. But it was a very stark thing to do. It wasn't just putting Buffy in a very bad, abusive, weird relationship, it was some sort of an end to magic. For me because childhood is so rich with metaphor, a lot of it had to do with leaving that behind. Instead of a bigger than life villain, we had the nerd troika. Instead of drinking blood and doing spells as sexual metaphor, we had sex. Things became very literal and they lost some of their loveliness.

Jane Espenson: I love Spike. I was very worried about the attempted rape... because that's not something you play around with. That's not something... it's very hard to come back from. And you know, you can say Luke and Laura came back from it, but that was a different time. I think we have to be very careful that we are not saying anything about humans. When we say that Spike looked into his soul, at that moment, and saw the demon in him and that's what made him want to go get a soul.

(Emphasis mine.)