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  • Top Three Topics That Never Found Peace

    These topics made chaos within fandom. They made fans fight, start clubs, change minds about characters, grow to massively hate some characters. The arguments when they start, never end, and when they end, it's always with the phrase "Agree to disagree".

    "Kick His Ass"

    This was probably the first storm in the BtVS fandom. Not only Bangels were furious at Xander's betrayal, almost all the BtVS fandom was. Xander started to lose fans, and websites about evil Xander began (with pictures of Xander with devil horns) Xander bashing was increasing, if not born, and never ending arguments took place in possible every forum. Until now fans are still upset about "Kick his ass", I think partly because the writers never dealt with it. If "kick his ass" was dealt with in S3, it won't be as infamous as it is today.

    "Spike's Almost Rape"

    I won't lie and say this is the second storm, however, no storm was as big as this one. Spuffy/Spike fans were shocked beyond belief that Spike would actually commit something so disgusting. It was preferred by many if the writers had Spike trying to turn Buffy instead of trying to rape her. Some Spike haters were thrilled, and started many pages about how rapists should never be forgiven, especially after Buffy seemed to forgive Spike in S7 and prefer him over the other characters. Phrases like "Buffy had it coming" and "Buffy was asking for it" were the biggest reason why some fans were obligate to create sites in which victims of rape should NEVER be considered responsible for what the rapists did.


    "Kicked Out of Her Own House."

    Empty Places had the fans raging on Buffy's behalf. Almost all the characters betrayed her, except True Love Spike, and that episode was the best move to bring fans back to love Buffy. Right now Buffy's fanbase started to increase more, especially because of this episode, fans started to see how much Buffy had sacrificed and how much her friends weren't always supportive of her decisions and weren't always patient about her mistakes. The Scoobies are hated by many Buffy (the character) fans, as well as Spuffy fans to the point were some consider that Buffy would have done fine, if better, if she didn't have the Scoobies as her family.
    Made by Trickyboxes
    Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

  • #2
    I guess we have to speak about those three and don't find others...

    1. Kick His Ass
    I totally agree with what you said, Xander's betrayal is so upsetting, his jealousy make the character unbearrable more than one time, thank god Anya's coming! And yes, the fact that it never been solved make it worse, they spoke a little about it in Selfless but that it. I guess the fact that Angel came back makes it okay after all.

    2. Rape scene
    Pretty strange cause I'm a big Spuffy fan and that scene didn't disturbed me at all. First of all because I find Spike so pathetic in it that I mostly feel sorry but not upset. Second of all, this is a really good way to introduce "Souled Spike". Worst Unsouled Spike was, more touching it makes the new Spike. I have really no problem with that scene, I'm even happy it happened.

    3. Kicked out
    That's a strange scene, seeing every Buffy friend turning his back is weird, mostly Willow because it was almost a first time (with Dead Man's Party maybe). And I have to say I can't bear Giles in it, after LMPTM incident, you can see in his eyes that he enjoys taking his revenge. But the stranger part is Dawn kickin Buffy out. I guess the writers wanted Buffy to be left alone and considering the scooby lace in season 7 is Buffy's house they had to find a way and thought about Dawn but it's kinda weird anyway. But here again, I'm very happy it happened because it brings Touched episode and a new Buffy face, and as a Spuffy fan, it was a good opportunity to have Buffy and Spike closer.
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    • #3
      1. Interesting that you put "Kick his ass" on top. I never saw "a storm" over Xander's remark. There were some negative posts, but clubs? That's quite a revelation. I entered online fandom in 2002, maybe that's why I missed it. I watched Becoming 100% spoiled and I knew the outcome and I saw Xander's remark only as another proof that in Jossverse everybody tried to do his best and ends up screwed up. I remember when Selfless has aired, people were glad it was mentioned and they regarded it as a closure of that moment in Becoming. Xander ended up in Buffy's shoes and realised how painful it's to choose between the greater good and the person you love. And, since that episode he matured a lot and stopped judging others.

      2. Attempted Rape. Yes, that's still painful. Five years has passed and no matter where I go there always are people who are happy to remind about this episode and tell me that I'm rapist lover. I suppose this scene has pretty much isolated Spuffy fandom from other fans. I used to avoid general Buffy forums because people were telling me that Spuffy equals rape apology. I hoped it will stop with time, but, obviously I was wrong. So I prefer stay in Spuffy zone, although sometimes I peek out and look around.
      But, interestingly, people who don't participate in online fandom don't understand the fuss about this scene. They see it just as a plot device.

      3. I have to admit that back in 2003 I watched the scene without paying particular attention. To me it was strictly a plot necessity. Buffy always falls hard before saving the day. In Jossverse, everybody does. So I was waiting for Spuffy action and regarded everything else as a distraction from the main goal. Later, when I rewatched the episode the scene looked a bit weird and sudden, particularly Dawn's behavior. Still, don't blame Scoobies more than, say, in Yoko's Factor. Just a requisite scene of misundertanding before the ultimate triumph.
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      Last edited by Moscow Watcher; 18-03-11, 10:38 AM.

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      • #4
        1. Xander saved the world that morning. There was no objective basis, at all, to allow one to assume Buffy could fight Angelus under distraction and live, let alone win. When he mentioned Willow's name, Buffy *instantly* lost focus, snap of a finger, and he made the only decision he could -- don't put more on Buffy's plate. It's all on her. She wins or everyone gets sucked into hell. There's no margin for error, and certainly no reason to risk her unquestionable emotional vulnerability about Angel by giving her information that couldn't actually help her anyway.

        Yes... useless information. If Buffy goes in there waiting for a spell to work, she's not on a cellphone, she doesn't know what progress is being made, or even if Willow can try after all. She can get no negative confirmation, no proof of failure, so how would she have had any way to know to *stop* stalling because the spell is *not* going to work? She couldn't have, which meant the knowledge could have served no purpose other than as a spurious distraction.

        I don't think this was any less ambiguously right, or at least pragmatic, than Giles killing Ben. The only basis on which to criticize it is to question Xander's motives -- did he lie and save the world on purpose, or to serve his own personal agenda? I don't think the latter view has much merit. As emphatic as Xander was toward killing Angelus, he never, before or after "Becoming" failed to be conciliatory and accepting of Angel when pushed to the test (going to Angel for help, consoling Buffy in "Phases", crying off his accusation in "Revelations", helping research in "Amends").

        As for resolution... it probably didn't need any. Reason? Buffy knew he lied pretty much immediately after the fight was over, unless she's kinda dim, and we know she's not. How did she know Willow was trying the spell again? Because Angel's soul was restored! She knew Xander had been in the hospital when she left him, she knew he had spoken to her, awake, since he claimed to have her message -- it's no inference to realize what happened. I personally take the fact it wasn't explored as Buffy, on some level, understanding *why* he did it. Go back and watch "Selfless" again -- nothing about that scene actually has to change, and it can be read as, rather than Xander being outed to Buffy and Willow, but Buffy *outing* his lie to Willow herself.

        Can you tell I have strong feelings about that scene?

        2. Spike's attempted rape -- It's really hard to do more with this than they did on the show. Buffy and Spike both acknowledged it, Dawn said her piece, there's no evidence in canon Willow *knew* about it, possibly at any point, and Xander was able to disillusion Dawn's misplaced hero worship.

        My strongest feelings on this scene are that, *any* of the Scoobies would have been justified, had the shooting and Willow's turn not gotten in the way, in summarily dusting Spike for it.

        3. I don't spend much time on this one -- it was so grossly out of character that it's hard to credit the scene at all. I'm mostly on Buffy's side here, though -- if anyone doesn't want her in charge, they can get the hell out of *her* house and run their own operation. It may be "Dawn's house, too", but she still has the lesser claim. They were right to disagree with her, yes, but not to mutiny. Plus, nobody needs to hear from Kennedy or Rona in a conversation between the people who have a say in the command of their operation -- namely Buffy, Giles, Xander, Willow, Dawn, and Faith. Everyone else could have gone outside while they talked it over, for that matter.
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        • #5
          1. The "Kick his ass" comment: There are all sorts of reasons why it could have been the right thing to do, but I don't think Xander had thought about it that much. He just said what he wanted to say.

          KoC, I think that saying that he saved the world is coming on a little strong. I'm not sure how Buffy would have fought if he had told her. Combined with what Whistler said about killing Angelus quickly, she could well have figured what was going to happen.

          2. The attempted rape: I think that saying Spuffy = rape apology is a little OTT. Still, the attempted rape isn't something I would forgive Soulless!Spike for. I wasn't particularly shocked. It was pretty much IC for Spike at the time regardless of what Spuffy/Spike fans might think.

          One thing I really hate is the Buffy had it coming/asked for it arguments. Sorry, but no one deserves or asks for rape. Spike wasn't trapped in their relationship. He could have ended it and chose not to. This renders any argument such as 'If you kick a dog then it will bite back' moot as far as I'm concerned. Moving on before I really get into a rant on this...

          3. Buffy getting kicked out of her house: On the one hand, this was a great betrayal by her friends, but on the other I think Buffy really needed something like that to happen. She had given up and was cracking up under the burden of what she saw as leading them to certain death. They were more of a burden to her than the help they had been in the past. By allowing her to get away from that burden and pull herself together, they did Buffy and themselves a favour. Of course, replacing her with Faith wasn't such a good idea, but when Buffy came back she was in a much stronger position than she had been for most of that season.
          Last edited by Anon; 29-09-07, 10:10 AM.

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          • #6
            Interesting thread sosa.

            1. I'm pretty much with KoC here. Xander saving the world might be putting it a little bit on the strong side but whether Xander was driven to do this by a desire for Buffy not to get distracted from her mission or his deep seated dislike and distrust of any vampire, souled or not, i think it was the right call.

            What eventually happened was tragic in the extreme but if there was any chance that buffy might go into that fight without complete and utter resolve then there is a huge chance that it's end of the world time. by no means do i think it's a certainty that Buffy would fail but even if her chances of success drop from 60% to 40% (arbrtary figures) then it's too big a risk.

            There is one motivation for what Xander say's that I would reject out ofhand which is that Xander wanted rid of Angel so he could have Buffy. I reject this because if so he justnever followed through on it.

            2. As much as i like Spike as a character i just can't put up any defence for him here. What he did was wrong on so many levels, soul or no, and if he had met his end because of it i would have no complaints. I think really the only debate i would say comes from this is buffy's all too ready defence and acceptance of the man who tried to rape her which i think should have been addressed in much greater depth.

            3. I agree with Anon here that this scene was a necessary catalyst in Buffy's development, especially considering that she seems so much more comfortable with leadership in season 8. Buffy didn't do the best job of leading the potentials. She may have been right with a lot of her decisions but it took Xander and Willow and Giles to keep the boat steady at times due to Buffy's distance from her charges. If you compare this scene with the scene where Buffy reveals her plan for the final battle the approaches are totally different. Here she presents a plan as a fait acompli whereas in the second case she asks opinions, takes sounding and brings the other senior members of the along with her rather than trying to do it all on her own.

            Given all that i do think the scene was somewhat out of character from just about everyone apart from kennedy and Rhona who had always been vocal dissenters. I can ascribe some of this to a battle weariness and the recent ass kicking they had all recieved but not all of it and i thought that Dawn in particular would never have acted as she did.
            JUST ENOUGH KILL

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Moscow Watcher View Post
              1. Interesting that you put "Kick his ass" on top. I never saw "a storm" over Xander's remark. There were some negative posts, but clubs? That's quite a revelation. I entered online fandom in 2002, maybe that's why I missed it.
              Seriously? "Kick His Ass" was, and is, one of the hottest topics fans love to argue about. When I posted this in another forum, everybody started dissing and shouting death threats at Xander I became a BtVS in 2002 as well, but I guess because I'm more of a Xander fan than you, I was more likely to face a lot of storms about this topic. I used to Google Xander a lot back in the day It actually shocks me how much people are still upset about it when "Kick His Ass" happened in 1998. Very long ago.

              I really believe that since they writers didn't deal with it in S3, fans still rant about it.
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              • #8
                1. Xander obviously doubted whether this spell would work, and also doubted Buffy's ability to kill Angel(us) when she'd failed to do so already. I wouldn't hold anything he said against him, simple as that.

                2. Another easy one. I agree with KoC, would've liked to see him dusted. We'd all be rid of the soul story, and the Scoobs losing screen time (and fans) to Spike in s7. No one else was able to hurt Buffy (physically or emotionally) as much as Spike did that season without getting some violent and generally fatal payback.

                3. Slightly OOC but necessary. In keeping with the (pretty muddled) theme(?) of the season, Buffy the unquestionable leader - see s3 Wes and s5 Watchers - needed to be taken down off her high horse and told that the political power of the group didn't have to rest with one person. Of course, she put Faith in her place, who met hte same fate.

                From an in-'verse standpoint, Buffy had nearly got them killed. Going back to get one's neck broken certainly did not seem like a good idea. As much a Buffy fan as I am, she was not "the law." The Scoobies, and everyone who was capable of fighting evil/monsters/etc, were the law. What I loved about the Scoobs in s4-6 was that even though Buffy was stronger than them, and had more at stake, she did not control them. They decided things together, and that was what they wanted to bring back in spite of Buffy's self-imposed "Great Leader complex."

                Even so, I couldn't imagine Xander making the remark about his eye as though Buffy had poked it out herself.
                Buffy: It sounds like it's difficult for you. Maybe your sister makes it hard for you to establish your own identity. You said she's controlling, she doesn't let you make your own decisions -
                Dawn: Yeah, and she borrows my clothes without asking.

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                • #9
                  My views as always are somewhat in the middle and based upon my analysis of the situation (well the best I could muster.

                  1. I definitely believe Xander's intentions were ambiguous. Even if his actions did help Buffy we cannot simply say "He was right" because his actions may have been personal. My personal feeling is that they were personal because Xander's feelings towards Angel were the more or less the same whether or not they have Utilitarian purposes, (see his reckless attitude in Passion.) This doesn't make Xander 'bad', it just makes him human.

                  2. Hmm this is the difficult one. Spike clearly was aghast at what happened but I have often tried to explore the culpability of soulless vampires. In the crude sense we have the evil by nature or evil by choice argument. The chasm of Spike's feelings towards Buffy and his own feelings on morality perhaps need addressing. For fairness' sake, if we are to blame Spike, we have to blame any soulless vampire including Angelus. In any respect if Buffy forgave Angel, it's only fair that she forgives Spike. If she doesn't blame soulless vampires in general then we'd accept that her feelings towards Spike were personal. There is always in difference in judging such matters when someone is the victim. I'm not looking to trivialise this matter but I feel as if I 'normalise' it but not without feeling empathy for Buffy's situation and understand her actions whether of forgiveness or fear of being intimate with the man who tried to rape her.

                  On a personal level we have to understand these issues. Spike is no longer just a monster, he was the potential suitor who tried to force himself on the woman he claimed to love.

                  As we move backward and assess the different theories of vampirism there is the possibility that the person we see filled with regret in the church in the BY is not even responsible, but feels as if he is. Again fairness across the board.

                  3. Laziness compells me to copy and paste.


                  Now lets look at all the characters and their reactions.

                  Willow and Xander

                  We have to understand this isn't the first time Willow has questioned Buffy's actions but never has the consequence been so grave. Xander in the earlier episode was talking about trusting Buffy because she's earned it and I believe this is true.Buffy greatest strengths has been her instinct and compassion, yet she leads them to die in Dirty Girls. Xander is really struggling to see Buffy's point because she's just contradicted what he said with her actions and wants to go again. The reason Buffy has been trusted this far because she's always got them through safely so they never had any reason to doubt her but now she wants to lead them to a place where some of them were killed and poor Xander was badly hurt ( a miracle he wasn't killed actually) and it surprises me that people can't see their perspective.

                  Giles

                  As for Giles, he was doubting Buffy's judgment anyway. Although I don't agree with his duplicity in LMPTM, it doesn't mean that he was necessarily in the wrong. The whole Spike thing was a judgement call and while it was Buffy's call, it doesn't make it the right call. If Spike had been left alone and the trigger was still activated then I'd agree with Wood (his revenge was actually arguabley irrelevent to the utilitarian argument when you analyse it logically) that Spike could have been a threat. Giles mistrust of Buffy's judgement is not coming out of the blue and lest we forget Glory/Ben.

                  Dawn

                  Dawn is surprising I think. Also think about CWDP. FE said Buffy wont choose you. Also Buffy said that if she had to choose between the world and Dawn, she'd choose the world in LMPTM. While Dawn didn't hear this, Buffy's attitude in terms of what wanting to take the offensive after people have been hurt and killed wouldn't allay Dawn's fears that she may put herself and others in danger. She's worried but she's not angry with Buffy because she defends her to Rona. She and Faith are perhaps the most sympathetic to Buffy and have proven it's not jealousy but circumstances which are motivating their actions. I mention jealousy because both of them have been jealous of Buffy at some point.

                  In conclusion, this was an extreme circumstance and I think the First was the main reason behind it: Divide and conquer and for a while it worked. Look at all the factors, secret messages, Spike, questions of authority and leadership and of course Eve!! Of course these concepts don't arise in a vacuum but I still believe the main reason is the mistrust of Buffy's ability to get them through this alive rather than personal issues.

                  Like I said, the FE were actually alot more clever than I gave them credit for originally and I think they are the main reason for the 'mutiny'. They used Buffy's greatest skill, her intuition, against her which made people wonder if they can trust her judgement which previously they relied on without any price really being paid. It was actually a pretty decent plan because on the one hand Buffy may have decided that it wasn't a good idea to go back, FE win again but Buffy's instinct were right but people were scared to trust Buffy's decision to go in again when the last time they got nothing but death and injury. Also the Spike plan was pretty good because if they had killed Spike then they would have lost one of their strongest warriors but on the other hand if Buffy protects him, which she was willing to do then considering that she's made dubious decisions regarding Spike before personally, then there's a chance that could be clouding her judgement in terms of what to do with him. On the third hand (lol) if nothing was done then Wood could have been right and Spike could have been their undoing in this battle. That is why this is one of my favourite episodes (much to others chagrin) because when you analyse it you can actually see how it arose. Pretty clever imo.

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                  • #10
                    If Xander didn't save the world, it's only because we're not going to give someone credit for inaction. I mean, he only *had* to lie because he opened his mouth in the first place. If he hadn't said "Willow", nothing would have changed. But, if you want to ask "would Acathla have opened if Buffy went into the mansion with the knowledge about the spell?" I say... without question. Since there's a real 'but for' connection to Xander lying and Buffy winning, I give him a share of the credit.

                    The debate over Spike's intentions and regrets is amusing. It's such a contrast from "Lie to Me", where the people who attribute human motivation to vampires in general are victimized and made the subject of mockery. Personally, I think it would have been morally acceptable on principle to stake Spike for any reason in the time between "The Initiative" and "Grave" -- you don't need a reason to stake a soulless vampire, you just need a stake. I can only guess, though, what kind of fallout there would have been if they had gone for it, if Xander or Willow or Dawn had done Spike the way that Sawyer did on Lost
                    Spoiler:
                    when he got a chance with Tom/Zeke -- "that's for taking the kid off the boat".
                    Personally, I think they'd have been perfectly in the clear prior to him getting his soul back.
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                    • #11
                      Mostly, I find myself most emotional over the "rape scene" and "kicked out of her own house". The Xander "kick his ass" I have always just checked up to Xander's jealously of Angel - I've always wondered if, in his heart of hearts, he wished that Buffy would have killed Angel. Then, no Angel for Xander to be jealous of. But the others - well, that's another story.

                      Originally posted by Pandora's_Box View Post
                      2. Rape scene
                      Pretty strange cause I'm a big Spuffy fan and that scene didn't disturbed me at all. First of all because I find Spike so pathetic in it that I mostly feel sorry but not upset. Second of all, this is a really good way to introduce "Souled Spike". Worst Unsouled Spike was, more touching it makes the new Spike. I have really no problem with that scene, I'm even happy it happened.
                      I understand totally what you are saying Pandora's Box and I'm not even a Spuffy fan! This scene clearly depicted just how *much* Spike was in love with Buffy. IMHO, it was totally within his charcter - Sipke only knew one way to deal with any situation - bullying and violence. (Remember Lovers Walk? or Crush?) After all, Buffy *is* a slayer and was never in any immediate danger from Spike. Rape is about power, not sex.

                      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                      2. Spike's attempted rape -- It's really hard to do more with this than they did on the show. Buffy and Spike both acknowledged it, Dawn said her piece, there's no evidence in canon Willow *knew* about it, possibly at any point, and Xander was able to disillusion Dawn's misplaced hero worship.

                      My strongest feelings on this scene are that, *any* of the Scoobies would have been justified, had the shooting and Willow's turn not gotten in the way, in summarily dusting Spike for it.
                      As many things as we agree on, KoC, I can't agree with you here. I do not think that any of the Scoobies would have just taken it upon themselves to dust Spike behind Buffy's back. Remember how she reacted to Giles and Robin when they set Spike up in Lies My Parents Told Me. She closed the door in Giles face with a very sad "You've taught me everything I need to know". And to Robin - ".....you try anything again and he'll kill you. More importantly, I'll let him." I think if the Scoobies were going to take independent action without Buffy's knowledge, they would have staked Angel(us).

                      Originally posted by tangent View Post
                      Interesting thread sosa.

                      2. As much as i like Spike as a character i just can't put up any defence for him here. What he did was wrong on so many levels, soul or no, and if he had met his end because of it i would have no complaints. I think really the only debate i would say comes from this is buffy's all too ready defence and acceptance of the man who tried to rape her which i think should have been addressed in much greater depth.
                      I've always had a love/hate relationship with Spike. And, of course, his actions were wrong. But I don't believe they were out of character for the man he was AT THAT TIME. I believe Buffy defended, accepted and forgave Spike because she UNDERSTOOD him. He acted in the only way possible for his character. IMHO, I think Buffy understood he wasn't trying to rape her (see my coment above about rape NOT being sex, it's POWER). Over and over Spike said "I'm going to MAKE you love me." He wasn't trying to force SEX on her, he was trying to force LOVE on her. Of course, neither was successful at that point. And, again, Buffy was never in any danger from Spike's actions. She figuratively smacked him the face with 1) bullying and violence will not get you what you want and 2) she doesn't love him (at THAT time). I believe she handled the situation to her own satisfaction and would not have been very happy with anyone else that intervened after the fact.

                      And, it SHOULD go without saying, but I'm going to say it anyway NO RAPE VICTIM SHOULD EVER BE BLAMED FOR WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM. NO RAPE VICTIM "ASKED FOR IT" OR "HAD IT COMING TO THEM". PERIOD.

                      Originally posted by Pandora's_Box View Post
                      3. Kicked out
                      That's a strange scene, seeing every Buffy friend turning his back is weird, mostly Willow because it was almost a first time (with Dead Man's Party maybe). And I have to say I can't bear Giles in it, after LMPTM incident, you can see in his eyes that he enjoys taking his revenge. But the stranger part is Dawn kickin Buffy out. I guess the writers wanted Buffy to be left alone and considering the scooby lace in season 7 is Buffy's house they had to find a way and thought about Dawn but it's kinda weird anyway. But here again, I'm very happy it happened because it brings Touched episode and a new Buffy face, and as a Spuffy fan, it was a good opportunity to have Buffy and Spike closer.
                      I can't stand this scene because every Scooby (even Faith, who returned to Sunnydale solely because they needed another slayer) acts totally out of the characters as we know them. It burns me up every time I think about it. What nerve! After everything she did in 7 years, to be kicked to the curb like so much garbage just kills me!


                      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                      3. I don't spend much time on this one -- it was so grossly out of character that it's hard to credit the scene at all. I'm mostly on Buffy's side here, though -- if anyone doesn't want her in charge, they can get the hell out of *her* house and run their own operation. It may be "Dawn's house, too", but she still has the lesser claim. They were right to disagree with her, yes, but not to mutiny. Plus, nobody needs to hear from Kennedy or Rona in a conversation between the people who have a say in the command of their operation -- namely Buffy, Giles, Xander, Willow, Dawn, and Faith. Everyone else could have gone outside while they talked it over, for that matter.
                      Amen! That's what I was going to say!

                      Originally posted by tangent View Post

                      Given all that i do think the scene was somewhat out of character from just about everyone apart from kennedy and Rhona who had always been vocal dissenters. I can ascribe some of this to a battle weariness and the recent ass kicking they had all recieved but not all of it and i thought that Dawn in particular would never have acted as she did.
                      I can't be objective here, because I've always been a Dawn basher, but, really - WHAT NERVE! It is NOT *her* house too! She only turned human after Buffy committed SUICIDE to protect her. Convenient that Dawn doesn't even remember that little incident.

                      Very interesting topic, indeed!
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                      • #12
                        Mostly, I find myself most emotional over the "rape scene" and "kicked out of her own house". The Xander "kick his ass" I have always just checked up to Xander's jealously of Angel - I've always wondered if, in his heart of hearts, he wished that Buffy would have killed Angel. Then, no Angel for Xander to be jealous of. But the others - well, that's another story.
                        It's just not supported in the text itself. As Sosa pointed out... if he just wanted Angel out of the way, why did he make no move for Buffy (when she got back)? He was right along with the others, encouraging the Scott Hope thing.

                        As many things as we agree on, KoC, I can't agree with you here. I do not think that any of the Scoobies would have just taken it upon themselves to dust Spike behind Buffy's back. Remember how she reacted to Giles and Robin when they set Spike up in Lies My Parents Told Me. She closed the door in Giles face with a very sad "You've taught me everything I need to know". And to Robin - ".....you try anything again and he'll kill you. More importantly, I'll let him." I think if the Scoobies were going to take independent action without Buffy's knowledge, they would have staked Angel(us).
                        I didn't say they would, just that they were justified. Although I tend to suspect that Xander would have, despite Buffy stopping him when he discovered her, but simply never had the opportunity before Spike left town.

                        And, it SHOULD go without saying, but I'm going to say it anyway NO RAPE VICTIM SHOULD EVER BE BLAMED FOR WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM. NO RAPE VICTIM "ASKED FOR IT" OR "HAD IT COMING TO THEM". PERIOD.
                        Here's the thing... no rape victim can ask for it or have it coming from a human person from whom certain objective moral absolute behavior should be expected. Spike, however, was a vampire, had no soul. Birds gotta swim, fish gotta fly, and vampires gotta lose any distinction between sexual aggressiveness and sexual violence. Spike was a loaded pistol of "love and pain and sex and death", an animal, and a certain consequence of getting sexually involved with that is assumption of the risk. No, she didn't "ask" for it, and that would certainly have been no excuse at all if her Season 6 dalliance had been with, I dunno, Parker, or that friend Xander wanted to fix her up with.

                        In one of the "Dark Tower" novels, a villain has a great line that describes the dynamic Buffy found herself in with Spike: "said the scorpion to the maid as she lay dying, 'you knew I was poison when you picked me up'".

                        Now, make no mistake -- I wanted Spike to be dusted for this, and in some ways still do. He is not justified or mitigated or in any way defended in his actions. I just can't look at the situation in its context, where Spike really is a vampire, and this is not a question merely of attempted rape, and not wonder exactly what Buffy expected to happen differently in the long run?

                        With the mutiny in "Empty Places", it should be pointed out... Buffy *was* wrong, her strategy was very ill-conceived and she wasn't making any attempt whatsoever at coherently explaining her reasons. If Cordy had been there when Buffy suggested going back to the vineyard, I suspect she would have quoted herself from "Innocence" ("so we can, what, be afraid and die?").

                        The problem was that people had waived their right to second guess her in a public forum like that by shoving this new role of general down her throat earlier in the season, *especially* Giles, whose entire plan was to start bringing girls to Sunnydale and making them Buffy's responsibility.

                        The movie "Crimson Tide" has an excellent explanation of these kinds of command relationships, by Gene Hackman's characters. He tells Denzel Washington that if he has a problem with a command decision he's made, then he can raise it with him in private, if the opportunity presents itself, and if the opportunity doesn't present itself, he can hold his effin' tongue. Any of the scoobies, Willow or Xander at least, since Buffy was done with Giles at that point, could have asked her if they could go talk in a bedroom or the kitchen or outside, when that situation was escalating.
                        Last edited by KingofCretins; 29-09-07, 04:34 PM.
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                        • #13
                          because xander wasn't THREATENED by scott hope. he knew he had no shot if angel was around, but scott had all the signs of being another owen thurman (who xander did have problems with, because at that point angel wasn't quite as in the picture--though xander showed plenty of jealousy towards angel before he ever learned he was a vampire).

                          Angelus: Buffy's white knight. You still love her. It must just eat you up that I got there first.
                          Xander: You're gonna die. And I'm gonna be there.
                          this sums up EXACTLY what xander meant when he told the lie in becoming, pt. 2. he wanted angel and angelus BOTH dead. he wanted angel dead because he wanted buffy and angelus was an excuse to get rid of angel.

                          not only was it out of pure jealousy, it was also a betrayal of willow's friendship with buffy, and it was a betrayal of his friendship to buffy!

                          here's how much xander cares about trying to get angel back (who buffy even states that what happened to him wasn't his fault):

                          Xander: ...So, this spell might restore Angel's humanity? Well, here's an interesting angle. Who cares?
                          we also have him betraying giles' wish to honor jenny calendar's hope to bring back angel as well as jenny calendar, herself. this is not xander's shining glory.

                          then, at the end of the episode, this is what xander is hoping:

                          Xander: Well, maybe it wasn't in time. Maybe she had to kill him before the cure could work.
                          xander didn't want the cure to work! he wanted angel dead! whereas willow was trying to get rid of angelus and save angel. that was selfless--and a true friend doing that for buffy. xander was totally run by jealousy.

                          buffy said it herself in revelations:

                          Buffy: Right. This is all nobility. This has nothing to do with jealousy.
                          if that doesn't prove it, here's the history of xander's jealousy issues (most of which centered on angel BEFORE and after he found out angel was a vampire) and a few other less than stellar moments involving buffy and her boyfriends (telling dawn about her sister's AR, which was just not dawn's business knowing):

                          Spoiler:
                          Buffy: Hmm, I know you don't, that's 'cause you're my friend. You're my Xander-shaped friend! Do you have any idea why I love you so, Xander?
                          Willow: We gotta to get her to a...
                          Xander: Let her speak!
                          Buffy: I'll tell you! You're not like other boys at all.
                          Xander: Well...
                          Buffy: You are totally, and completely one of the girls! I'm that comfy with him.
                          Xander: That's great.
                          Buffy: Any other guy who'd give me a bracelet, they'd... wanna date me, and be like a...

                          Xander: That weird guy that warned her about all the vampires?
                          ...
                          Xander: Well, he's buff! She never said anything about him being buff!
                          ...
                          Xander: He's a very attractive man! How come that never came up?

                          Xander: I realize it's no mystery guy handing out leather jackets, and while we're on the subject, what kind of a girlie name is 'Angel' anyway?

                          Xander: Dangerous and mean, right? Like Angel. Your Mystery Guy. Well, guess who just got mean.

                          Xander: He spent the night? In your room? In your bed?
                          ...
                          Xander: Buffy, come on, wake up and smell the seduction. It's the oldest trick in the book.
                          ...
                          Xander: Duh! I mean, guys'll do anything to impress a girl.
                          ...
                          Xander: Ah-ah-ah, don't worry about Angel, Willow can run to your house and tell him to get out of town fast.

                          Xander: Alright, uh... you have a problem, and it's not a small one. Let's take a breath and look at this calmly and objectively. Angel's a vampire. You're a Slayer. I think it's obvious what you have to do.

                          Xander: Well, as long as they're not kissing.

                          Xander: Nah. Forget it. I'm not him. I mean, I guess a guy's gotta be undead to make time with you.

                          Xander: Apart from 'no', does it really matter? She's still jonesin' for Angel, and could care less about me.

                          Xander: How can I say this clearly? I don't like you. At the end of the day, I pretty much think you're a vampire. But Buffy's got this big old yen for you. She thinks you're a real person. And right now I need you to prove her right.
                          Angel: You're in love with her.
                          Xander: Aren't you?

                          Angel: This way. What?
                          Xander: You were looking at my neck.
                          Angel: What?
                          Xander: You were checking out my neck! I saw that!
                          Angel: No, I wasn't!
                          Xander: Just keep your distance, pal.
                          Angel: I wasn't looking at your neck!
                          Xander: I told you to eat before we left.

                          Buffy: Xander? Did I ever thank you... for saving my life?
                          Xander: No.
                          Buffy: Don't you wish I would?

                          Xander: Huh-huh-huh, right. Like she's gonna fall for that.
                          ...
                          Xander: She's gonna walk away. Now.
                          ...
                          Xander: Okay, boots, start a-walking.

                          Willow: He's going with you? She's got a date with Angel! Isn't that exciting?
                          Xander: I'm elated.
                          Buffy: I-I'm not going with Angel. I'm going with, ye gods, Cordelia.
                          Willow: Cordelia?! Did I sound a little jealous just then, 'cause I'm not really... Cordelia?!
                          Xander: Cordelia's much better for you than Angel.

                          Buffy: Nothing, as usual. A whole lotta nothing with Angel.
                          Xander: Bummer.
                          ...
                          Buffy: Angel barely says two words to me.
                          Xander: Don't you hate that?
                          Buffy: And when he does, he treats me like I'm a child.
                          Xander: That bastard!
                          Buffy: You know, at least Tom can carry on a conversation.
                          Xander: Yeah! Tom? Who's Tom?
                          Willow: The frat guy.
                          Xander: Oh, Buffy, I don't think so. Frying pan, fire? You know what I'm sayin'.

                          Willow: You wanna protect her?
                          Xander: Mm-hm.
                          Willow: And prove that you're just as good as those rich, snotty guys?
                          Xander: Mm-hm.

                          Xander: Angel, Angel, Angel. Does every conversation we have have to come around to that freak?

                          Angel: Buffy.
                          Buffy: Angel.
                          Xander: Xander!

                          Larry: You and Buffy, you're just friends, right?
                          Xander: I like to think of it less as a friendship and more as a solid foundation for future bliss.
                          Larry: So, she, she's not your girlfriend?
                          Xander: Alas, no.

                          Xander: Oh, I'll forget about it. In maybe fifteen, twenty years when my rep for being a sissy man finally fades!
                          Buffy: Xander, don't you think you're...
                          Xander: A black eye heals, Buffy, but cowardice has an unlimited shelf life. Oh, thanks! Thanks a lot for your help.

                          Xander: Give it up, Cordy. You're never gonna get between those two. Believe me, I know.

                          Ford: Would I be imposing?
                          Xander: No, only in the literal sense.
                          ...
                          Xander: This is Ford, my bestest friend of all my friends! Jeez, doesn't she know any fat guys?

                          Cordelia: I know. You were too busy rushing off to die for your beloved Buffy. You'd never die for me.

                          Xander: So, he killed her... before she could tell anyone about it. What a prince, huh?
                          ...
                          Xander: ...So, this spell might restore Angel's humanity? Well, here's an interesting angle. Who cares?
                          Buffy: I care.
                          Xander: Is that right.
                          Giles: Let's not lose our perspective here, Xander.
                          Xander: I'm Perspective Guy. Angel's a killer.
                          Willow: Xander...
                          Buffy: It's not that simple.
                          Xander: What? All is forgiven? I can't believe you people!
                          ...
                          Xander: ...so I'm gonna get back to the point, which is that Angel needs to die.
                          Giles: Curing Angel seems to have been Jenny's last wish.
                          Xander: Yeah? Well, Jenny's dead.
                          Giles: Don't you ever speak of her in that tone again!
                          ...
                          Buffy: I, I don't know. What happened to Angel wasn't his fault.
                          Xander: Yeah, but what happened to Ms. Calendar is. You can paint this any way you want. But the way I see it is that you wanna forget all about Ms. Calendar's murder so you can get your boyfriend back.

                          Willow: Xander, go to Buffy. Tell her what we're doing. Maybe she can stall.
                          Xander: But I...
                          Willow: Resolve face.
                          ...
                          Xander: Willow. Uh, she told me to tell you...
                          Buffy: Tell me what?
                          Xander: Kick his ass.

                          Xander: Well, maybe it wasn't in time. Maybe she had to kill him before the cure could work.

                          Xander: Mad? Just because you ran away and abandoned your post and your friends and your mom and made him lay awake every night worrying about you?

                          Xander: And what'll we talk about at a gathering anyway? 'So, Buffy, did you meet any nice pimps on your travels? And oh, by the by, thanks for ruining our lives for the past three months.'

                          Xander: And this is the spot where Angel tried to kill Willow.

                          Xander: Hope not. Because I think you're harboring a vicious killer.
                          ...
                          Buffy: But he's better now.
                          Xander: Better for how long, Buffy? I mean, did you even think about that?
                          ...
                          Xander: For what? For Angel to go psycho again the next time you give him a happy?
                          ...
                          Xander: What, you just tripped and fell on his lips?
                          Buffy: It was wrong, okay? I know that, and I know that it can't happen again. But you guys have to believe me. I would never put you in any danger. If I thought for a second that Angel was going to hurt anyone...
                          Xander: ...you would stop him. Like you did last time with Ms. Calendar.
                          ...
                          Xander: Right! Great plan. Leave tons of firepower with the Scary Guy, and leave us to clean up the mess.
                          Buffy: You would just love an excuse to hurt him, wouldn't you?
                          Xander: I don't need an excuse. I think lots of dead people actually constitutes a reason.
                          Buffy: Right. This is all nobility. This has nothing to do with jealousy.

                          Xander: The Glove of Myhnegon? Right. How'd you like a hit of some real news: Angel's still alive.
                          Faith: The vampire.
                          Xander: Back in town. Saw him myself. Toting the popular and famous glove.
                          Faith: Angel. Guy like that, with that kind of glove, could kill a whole mess of people.
                          Xander: Said the same thing to Buffy myself. Weird how she didn't seem to care.
                          Faith: Buffy knew he was alive. I can't believe her.
                          Xander: She says he's clean.
                          Faith: Yeah, well, I say we can't afford to find out. I say I deal with this problem right now. I say I slay.
                          Xander: Can I come?

                          Buffy: What happened?
                          Xander: Your boyfriend's not as cured as you thought.
                          Buffy: What makes you think that Angel had anything to do with this?
                          Xander: We saw what you saw.
                          Buffy: So, you just assume?
                          Xander: I didn't. Faith did.
                          Buffy: What did you tell her?
                          Xander: Only what everyone knows. She's a big girl. Came to her own conclusions.

                          Willow: What do you think Buffy and Angel are gonna do?
                          Xander: Boy, do I don't know.
                          Willow: Well, he saved me from a horrible flamey death. That sort of makes me like him again.
                          Xander: Well, as long as she and Angel don't get pelvic, we'll be okay, I guess.

                          Xander: Angel? Weird? What are the odds?

                          Xander: Well, it must be that whole Angel-killed-his-girlfriend-and-tortured-him thing. Hey, Giles is pretty petty when it comes to stuff like that.
                          Buffy: Xander, enough, okay?

                          Spike: This isn't about Buffy.
                          Xander: Bull. We're all hip to your doomed obsession.
                          Spike: They're for Joyce.
                          Xander: Like you care about her.
                          Willow: Guys, guys, not here.
                          Spike: Care? Joyce was the only one of the lot of you that I could stand.
                          Xander: And she's the only one with a daughter you wanted to shag. I'm touched.
                          Spike: I liked the lady. Understand, monkey boy? She was decent. She didn't put on airs. She always had a nice cuppa for me. And she never treated me like a freak.
                          Xander: Her mistake.
                          Spike: Think what you want.
                          Xander: Unbelievable. The guy thinks he can put on a big show and con Buffy into being his sex monkey.
                          Willow: Xander... He didn't leave a card.

                          Dawn: You know, if Spike were here, he'd go back and fight.
                          Xander: Sure, if he wasn't too busy trying to rape your sister.

                          Xander: No, of course not. You think we haven't seen all this before? The part where you just cut us all out. Just step away from everything human and act like you're the law. If you knew what I felt...
                          Buffy: I killed Angel! Do you even remember that? I would have given up everything I had to be with... I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life. And I put a sword through his heart because I had to.
                          Willow: And that all worked out OK.
                          Buffy: Do you remember cheering me on? Both of you. Do you remember giving me Willow's message: Kick his ass.
                          Willow: I never said that...


                          yeah, that's the one that still gets me heated.
                          Last edited by NileQT87; 30-09-07, 06:48 AM.

                          "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                          "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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                          • #14
                            because xander wasn't THREATENED by scott hope. he knew he had no shot if angel was around, but scott had all the signs of being another owen thurman (who xander did have problems with, because at that point angel wasn't quite as in the picture--though xander showed plenty of jealousy towards angel before he ever learned he was a vampire).
                            Okay so Xander has no shot with Buffy whilst Angels about, that's a given. However why having gotten rid of Angel so he can have that shot nerver take it? He had opportunity Buffy was boyless for a least 6 eps of season 3 (at least as far as Xander knows) and again at the start of season 4. Seems like a lot to willingly get rid of a love rival and then not act afterwards to fill his shoes.

                            I'm not trying to say that Xander is whiter than white here but i think his motivations have more to do with the fact that his bestest male bud was turned into a vampire and that ever since then he has a hatred of vamps and all they stand for. To me he never trusted Angel and the emergence of Angelus just confirms everything he already believes about him.

                            I also believe though that Xander did see that moment of hope rise in Buffy's eyes when he mentioned Willow and the above made it easier for him to take the more practical line of ensuring Buffy was focused on stopping Angelus. Now in and ideal world we would be sure, prior to the fight that Willows spell would work and we would also be sure that Buffy could tread water until it does. Sadly we can't be sure of either of those things so with the whole world at stake Buffy had to be 100% commited to stopping Angelus and that would mean killing him if necessary. If there's even a risk of her resolve failing for even half a second then that risk is too great.

                            So in short although Xander's motivation may have been coloured by his hatred and distrust of vampires in general I think that he made the right call here.
                            Last edited by tangent; 30-09-07, 08:38 PM.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post
                              because xander wasn't THREATENED by scott hope. he knew he had no shot if angel was around, but scott had all the signs of being another owen thurman (who xander did have problems with, because at that point angel wasn't quite as in the picture--though xander showed plenty of jealousy towards angel before he ever learned he was a vampire).
                              Then explain to me why was Xander jealous of the other guy in Lie To Me? Angel was already in the picture by this time. Xander's jealousy days had ended in S2. From S3 and on, he clearly lost any hope he and Buffy would be together, that's why he wasn't jealous of Scott Hope, didn't make a fuss about Angel/Buffy after Revelation, was supportive of Buffy/Riley, brought a date for Buffy in her birthday and so on.
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                              • #16
                                he seemed over the jealousy issue at about revelations... however, he certainly didn't stop hating angel. and note he hated angel before there was any indication that angel was a vampire. so it was borne out of jealousy, but still remained afterwards (out of habit?).

                                still, his motivation in becoming, pt. 2 remains... it was jealousy. he wanted angel (not just angelus) dead for reasons other than helping buffy in the fight (which is ridiculous--willow was the one trying to help buffy, not xander). willow and even giles!!! wanted to follow through with jenny's last wish. xander just wanted angel dead.

                                angelus pointed it out clearly to xander in killed by death--he was jealous of angel for getting there first... and that was why xander wanted angel(us) dead... and wanted to be there to see angel gone. he also lead on faith to drawing conclusions that would set faith after angel. he was still hoping for angel to die in revelations.

                                as late as amends, xander was still making crass comments about angel and jenny. buffy even told him to stop.

                                buffy tried to explain to xander that angel and angelus were separate people and that angel obviously couldn't have known what would happen. he was as innocent as buffy in that regard. of course, xander had a motive to lie to buffy, and not only betrayed buffy, but also willow.

                                selfless made it clear that buffy had a lot of pent up emotions about that lie. more than 4 years later, that one phrase stuck out in her mind as something she held against both xander and willow. ...and in willow's case, it was entirely undeserved, which made xander guilty of betraying the friendship between buffy and willow.
                                Last edited by NileQT87; 30-09-07, 02:22 PM.

                                "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                                "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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                                • #17
                                  Seasion 1, I think it partly is jealousy, certainly before the vamp thing came out.

                                  After that? I don't see it. Out of all Buffy's realtionships after he was shot down in season 1 he has only had a problem with two. He was fine with Scott, he ws actually very supportive of Riley and he showed no real tension with Wood. The only two he became irrational over were Spike and Angel who were both vampires.

                                  So does Xander want Angel dead? Yes. Xander can't trust Angel or spike because of what they are. To me he see's Buffy getting involved with a vampire, even one with a soul, as a bad thing. Angel can't be trusted because Angel has the seed of Angelus within him. So whether Xander wants Angel or Angelus dead is a moot point to me because i don't think Xander really see's any difference.

                                  As for Willow helping and Xander not i think they both have Buffy' s interest at heart and both think tey're helping in their own way, Willow by getting Angel back and Xander by helping her kill Angelus. Which one is the better plan is really down to how you look at it
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                                  • #18
                                    but willow's plan puts angelus back in the place he hates the most (inside angel, unable to act), yet doesn't punish angel (other than the poorly executed gypsy curse which he already had--effectively not only punishing the demon, but the dead human as well). xander's plan ends up punishing angel for the deeds of angelus. xander's execution of justice/vengeance was no better than that of the gypsies to liam.

                                    it's possible that angel spent 100 years in hell because of xander's lie--something that might have been avoided if buffy had been working to keep angelus away from the sword instead of focused on killing him.
                                    Last edited by NileQT87; 30-09-07, 02:46 PM.

                                    "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                                    "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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                                    • #19
                                      but willow's plan puts angelus back in the place he hates the most (inside angel, unable to act), yet doesn't punish angel. Xander's plan ends up punishing angel for the deeds of angelus.
                                      True. But Xander's plan (not that I think he actually gave it all that much thought) has a much better chance of working. We don't know beforehand that willow can work the spell (she is totally unproven at such an advanced level) or that the spell will actually work. We also don't know that Buffy will be able to just hold off Angel (who nearly kills her when she isn't trying to stall). The only advantage of Willows plan is that it saves Angel if it works before he wakes Acathla. It risks Buffy's life to a greater degree and at the end of the day even if she had won through she had a large chance of having to kill Angel anyway.

                                      Take out consideration for one person and you have a much better chance of saving everybody from an eternity of torture and pain.
                                      Last edited by tangent; 30-09-07, 08:39 PM.
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                                      • #20
                                        I hate to pull out the intention of the writer trump card, but Joss himself has explicitly dismissed the claim that Xander acted out of jealousy. So, not only is any support for attributing a jealous motive pretty weak to begin with, we have the actual writer and creator to tell us that it is *not* the correct reading of the text.

                                        While this is one of the issues that has never been closed in the fandom, it is in a way the most inexplicable to still be arguing about, since Joss himself settled the issue.

                                        Plus, I'd still love an answer to my earlier point that there was no actual benefit to Buffy knowing this. All it could have done was distracted her, she would have had no way of knowing when to stop stalling.

                                        As far as telling Dawn that Spike tried to rape Buffy... he was absolutely right. Dawn is standing there having a hero fantasy about the vampire who had tried to force himself on her sister just hours earlier? And Xander is obligated to stand there and listen to her insinuate that Spike is better to have around in a crisis than Xander himself? Is *every* other character obliged to stand around and hold their tongue or make excuses for Spike's or Buffy's unacceptable behavior regarding the other one, even at their own expense, or is it just Xander?
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