The Body Swap

[Bittersweettwit]

Hi everyone! After recently re watching season 4 having acquired the box set a few days ago. I noticed something, which I thought might prove to be an interesting conversation here on Buffy forums.

After watching the Episode Who are you? And all of the encounters one which stood out for me were Buffy Faith's encounter with Riley. In other books and TV verses in which I have watched or read. The partners of the said person will usually at least suspect that something was going on? A most of notable of these for me is during Season 3 of Charmed in which Piper's body gets switched. For those of you who don't watch the show her boyfriend Leo could simply tell that it wasn't Piper from the way that she kissed him.

So the question I am going to ask is why couldn't Riley tell that Buffy wasn't Buffy or at the least that something wasn't wrong with her despite the fact that they did a lot more than kissing? Do you think that perhaps in the Joss Verse simple things such as kissing patterns don't change upon possession? Perhaps Buffy and Riley was simply too new a couple at this stage. I am not trying to use this post to attack the Ruffy Relationship, but I am sure that even their fans would admit that half a season which is what a few months isn't a very long time to get to know someone?

And here is where the controversy begins. Do you think that Riley would have been able to tell it wasn't Buffy at a later stage of their relationship? Also do you think that at the highlight of their individual relationships Spike or Angel would have been able to tell that it wasn't Buffy? With Angel I am not entirely sure, as I cannot think of any evidence to suggest so. But with Spike yes I think he would have. This isn't due to me being a fan of Spuffy in actual fact I prefer single Buffy. But due to an episode of Season 5 the name of which escapes him in which the Buffybot is made. Spike is able to instantly tell that he is kissing the real Buffy rather than the Buffybot.

I am sure that some people will argue with me that there is a much bigger difference between a machine and a human and someone else possessing another body. But I always got the feeling that Spike could tell that it was Buffy from simple things. Such as the way in which she kissed him, the look on her face. Little things, which would have changed, had Faith have been the driver. I am sure that we can all agree that Buffy and Faith style with the opposite sex is rather different then again so is their general attitude towards most people?

So I am interested to hear everyone's opinion discuss

[The_Narrator]

Spike is able to instantly tell that he is kissing the real Buffy rather than the Buffybot.

The immediate difference for me was that the robot was designed to be a 'sexbot'; it was meant to fulfill all of Spike's fantasies. Whereas when the real Buffy was kissing Spike, it was tender and heartfelt, not the movement of wires and metal.

As for why Riley couldn't distinguish between the two, well, he did notice a change in mood, asking Faith/Buffy why she was 'playing games' or something (?) Besides, I think Faith knew Buffy well enough to be able to get by impersonating her. She may not have copied Buffy perfectly, but I think most people were fairly convinced. So I can forgive Riley and the others for not recognising the difference. Though equally I can understand why Buffy was upset in the next episode. I'm sure we'd all like to think if we underwent body swaps someone would be able to tell but *cynicism approaches* I think it would take a while for people to recognise a change, and then it would only be by something subtle, I reckon, a Freudian Slip, or not remembering something like a birthday - I'm thinking of Angel's recognition of BeastMasterCordy by 'my sweet' here. Hell, Angelus pulled it off impersonating Angel, Wesley pulled off Angel, Faith pulled off Buffy etc.

[vampmogs]

Well Riley did say he knew something was up, but he should have picked up on it. He did seem a bit concerned about how she was acting, but I know I wouldn't have guessed body swap! I just think that most people wouldn't know the difference, I mean none of her friends did nor did Spike. I'm not sure that Faith would have been her usual self during the sex, she wants to be like Faith but Riley stops her and kisses her lovingly. Later Faith is shocked after the sex, especially when Riley tells her he loves her. I think the sex wasn't like Faith, it was much more loving and tender which is what freaked her out so much. So I don't think too much of her own style really came into factor here.

As far as Spike or Angel knowing.. well I'm not entirley sure. Spike didn't know when she confronted him in the Bronze but he hadn't slept with Buffy yet or didn't know her that well then, so I guess some argument could be made this doesn't say a lot. However, vampires also have that ability to smell the scent of a person, Spike probably smelled the scent of the real Buffy as she moved in for the kiss, all battered and bloody it is possible it took him a while to realise this was Buffy's real scent and not the bot.

Also as you said, a bot and a human would kiss very differently. From what we had seen of the Buffybot, she was in no way tender with Spike, she was always very forceful and over the top. This is very different from the sympathetic and soft kiss Buffy gives him, so there is a big distinction there.

Whether or not Angel could know, well the bond he shared with Buffy resulted in them being able to feel eachother. Buffy tells Angel in LA how she could feel him there, demonstrated when she is looking out her window in her dorm room when he is outside, and when she stops in Giles' apartment and senses Angel who is hiding inside during Pangs. Whether or not this could effect him, well I'm not too sure

I personally wouldn't blame any of the three guys if they didn't realise it was Buffy.

[Bittersweettwit]

Before I begin to reply to each of your posts! I would just like to whoa quick reply guys! And now let the discussion part of my post begin.

The immediate difference for me was that the robot was designed to be a 'sexbot'; it was meant to fulfill all of Spike's fantasies. Whereas when the real Buffy was kissing Spike, it was tender and heartfelt, not the movement of wires and metal.

Yes I thought that might be an argument that someone would say but then as I explained in my last Post. I felt that it was more than a kiss between the two, which made Spike realize that it was the real Buffy rather than the Buffy bot. After the two kiss I can remember Spike looking at Buffy into her eyes he had suspicions yes but in my opinion it was only after he carefully looked into Buffy's eye that he could tell it was the real her.

As for why Riley couldn't distinguish between the two, well, he did notice a change in mood, asking Faith/Buffy why she was 'playing games' or something (?) Besides, I think Faith knew Buffy well enough to be able to get by impersonating her. She may not have copied Buffy perfectly, but I think most people were fairly convinced. So I can forgive Riley and the others for not recognising the difference. Though equally I can understand why Buffy was upset in the next episode. I'm sure we'd all like to think if we underwent body swaps someone would be able to tell but *cynicism approaches* I think it would take a while for people to recognise a change, and then it would only be by something subtle, I reckon, a Freudian Slip, or not remembering something like a birthday - I'm thinking of Angel's recognition of BeastMasterCordy by 'my sweet' here. Hell, Angelus pulled it off impersonating Angel, Wesley pulled off Angel, Faith pulled off Buffy etc.

Your right Riley did notice a change in the mood, however he didn't seem to place very much thought on it! As for Faith knowing Buffy well enough Faith did give herself away in several of her encounters not just the one in which she had with Riley. Lets take a look at her encounter with Joyce. The first clue, which Joyce really should have picked up on, and the clue, which allowed us the audience to pick up on the change, was her use of the expression Five by Five. Then again she practically gives herself again once again by the discomfort and disgust she feels after Joyce hugs us. But again this thread is about her and Riley not Buffy and Joyce. So I'll leave it at that. In real life I could of course forgive people for not noticing the difference. I mean if one of my friends were acting differently I wouldn't automatically think Body swap.

In the Buffy verse however where the character encounter possessions Body swaps etc you would have thought that at least one of her friends would have picked up on it rather than someone like Tara who was meeting Buffy for the first time. Though admittedly this is due to Tara knowing magicks that not even Willow would have known of at the time. In relation to slips as I said earlier Faith slipped several times. The most notable of these slips with Joyce as I discussed earlier. But there are several other slips one of these is with Tara and Willow in the bronze where she asks something along the lines of "I haven't met you yet?" However I am getting a little off track since I was meant to be discussing Riley. She also lets it slip to Riley although after they have sex. (I am allowed to say that right? Since I know of some forums, which are strict on this type of thing? I'll edit later. If needs be) When she refers to Buffy as her rather than I. I think the quote was "Who are you? What do you want with her."

Ok so those other swaps you mentioned are entirely different. Angelus and Angel are in effect the same person. Angel remembers Angelus what he has done, his little mannerisms and so it is fair to assume that Angelus will be the same with Angel and as of such able to pull it off. Wesley pulling off Angel is also completely different. The people Wesley talked to didn't know Angel in the slightest! Hell Wesley wasn't even in Angel's body to look like him. So of course it would be pretty easy for him to pull of Angel.

Well Riley did say he knew something was up, but he should have picked up on it. He did seem a bit concerned about how she was acting, but I know I wouldn't have guessed body swap! I just think that most people wouldn't know the difference, I mean none of her friends did nor did Spike. I'm not sure that Faith would have been her usual self during the sex, she wants to be like Faith but Riley stops her and kisses her lovingly. Later Faith is shocked after the sex, especially when Riley tells her he loves her. I think the sex wasn't like Faith, it was much more loving and tender which is what freaked her out so much. So I don't think too much of her own style really came into factor here.

Well as I said previously of course in real life no one would ever guess body swap, but we mustn't forget that the character of the Buffy verse encounter this type of thing often. Possessions, body Transformations etc. Frankly I am rather surprised that at least one of the scoobies didn't pick on something. I have referred to several slips that Faith had made in front of them and that is only the ones that I can remember. There is likely even more! I think that perhaps at this time the gang were just too simply focused on what was going on in their own life's now that Faith was recaptured to actually pay attention to Buffy. After all we know that parts of Season 4 weren't the best for the gang friendship wise hence why it was easy for Spike to temporarily break them apart in the Yoko Factor.

I actually agree with you Vampmogs however what occurred after the sex should definitely have been a big give away. Faith freaks out and actually refers to Buffy as her rather than I. Also in relation to Faith's freaking out. I always thought that perhaps she might have sensed Willow in the nether (?) realm seeing as she was performing that spell around the same time. Though perhaps I just completely misunderstood. Or perhaps it was both?

As far as Spike or Angel knowing.. well I'm not entirley sure. Spike didn't know when she confronted him in the Bronze but he hadn't slept with Buffy yet or didn't know her that well then, so I guess some argument could be made this doesn't say a lot. However, vampires also have that ability to smell the scent of a person, Spike probably smelled the scent of the real Buffy as she moved in for the kiss, all battered and bloody it is possible it took him a while to realise this was Buffy's real scent and not the bot.

Yeah I personally don't feel that it says a lot. At this stage of Season 4 Spike only knew Slayer Buffy! He knew what he saw as the Slayer bitch not the actual person Buffy though he was certainly getting to know her better by this stage! We also know that he didn't have feelings for Buffy yet or if he did he certainly wasn't ready to admit them even to himself yet. That's a good point Mogs and one, which I hadn't thought of before. But then why did it take him so long to pick up on the fact that the scent wasn't the real Buffy. I mean shouldn't he have either smelt her scent straight away or if his senses were weak from the fight not smell her at all?

Also as you said, a bot and a human would kiss very differently. From what we had seen of the Buffybot, she was in no way tender with Spike, she was always very forceful and over the top. This is very different from the sympathetic and soft kiss Buffy gives him, so there is a big distinction there.

Whether or not Angel could know, well the bond he shared with Buffy resulted in them being able to feel eachother. Buffy tells Angel in LA how she could feel him there, demonstrated when she is looking out her window in her dorm room when he is outside, and when she stops in Giles' apartment and senses Angel who is hiding inside during Pangs. Whether or not this could effect him, well I'm not too sure

I personally wouldn't blame any of the three guys if they didn't realise it was Buffy.

Yes your right! The Buffy bots style would have certainly been different to the real Buffy! But then that was something I was saying in relation to Buffy and Faith wouldn't their kissing styles be just as different as Buffy and the Buffy bots at least at first?

Hmm I had forgotten about that fact though as I said I can't really think of much evidence to support the fact that Angel would be able to sense her. Though if anyone else can think of anything feel free to post it. As for blaming no I don't think I'd blame any of the guys certainly not in real life anyway. I was just curious what people thought about the issue.

[vampmogs]

Well as I said previously of course in real life no one would ever guess body swap, but we mustn't forget that the character of the Buffy verse encounter this type of thing often. Possessions, body Transformations etc. Frankly I am rather surprised that at least one of the scoobies didn't pick on something. I have referred to several slips that Faith had made in front of them and that is only the ones that I can remember. There is likely even more! I think that perhaps at this time the gang were just too simply focused on what was going on in their own life's now that Faith was recaptured to actually pay attention to Buffy. After all we know that parts of Season 4 weren't the best for the gang friendship wise hence why it was easy for Spike to temporarily break them apart in the Yoko Factor.

That may be a big part of it, though at this stage they were still kind of close and Willow did attempt to make Buffy and Tara meet. They did notice she was acting strangely, Xander is offended by her remark, Willow looks at her strangely when she notices Faith staring at her and Giles gives her a suspicious look when Faith asks what is up with Adam. If they hadn't even responded unusually towards her I think that would have been highly unrealistic because some of her behaviour was very different, but even in this verse I think it is understandable they wouldn't have guessed it wasn't Buffy.

I actually agree with you Vampmogs however what occurred after the sex should definitely have been a big give away. Faith freaks out and actually refers to Buffy as her rather than I. Also in relation to Faith's freaking out. I always thought that perhaps she might have sensed Willow in the nether (?) realm seeing as she was performing that spell around the same time. Though perhaps I just completely misunderstood. Or perhaps it was both?

Well yeah I think at this stage if it had been someone else, they would have guessed. But Riley is new to the magic world, he asks how it is possible and in the following episode makes comments about how surprised he is to realise such things as spells are actually possible. He'd be as cynical about this stuff as we were at that point, even in that verse, because had had never had any idea bout the spells ect. I personally always thought she was so taken back because she just had meaningful sex with someone, she hadn't been used or wasn't just an object of sex and then when he tells her he loves her she freaks about because she has never experienced this before and he doesn't love her he loves Buffy. But perhaps it was both, it is entirley up to the viewer

Yeah I personally don't feel that it says a lot. At this stage of Season 4 Spike only knew Slayer Buffy! He knew what he saw as the Slayer bitch not the actual person Buffy though he was certainly getting to know her better by this stage! We also know that he didn't have feelings for Buffy yet or if he did he certainly wasn't ready to admit them even to himself yet.

Well yeah, at this point I don't think much argument could be made for Spike. Though one could argue he knew her well enough at this stage to know that she would have never tried to come onto him. All their encounters before that she had told him how much she hated him and was disgusted by him, to suddenly start coming onto him is a very big turn so perhaps he should have guessed? Really, I'm not sure, as we both have agreed on we can't really blame them for not knowing

That's a good point Mogs and one, which I hadn't thought of before. But then why did it take him so long to pick up on the fact that the scent wasn't the real Buffy. I mean shouldn't he have either smelt her scent straight away or if his senses were weak from the fight not smell her at all?

Well I'm pretty much fanwanking here, but perhaps seeing that his face was so bloody he could seem the coppery scent of blood more than anything else. We know vamps can smell bloody pretty well, I suspect when they have large amounts of blood on their face the scent could pretty much cover everything else in the room. Perhaps it took him a moment to smell her until she got close enough for him to pick up on it? But really I do think it was because of the kiss.

Yes your right! The Buffy bots style would have certainly been different to the real Buffy! But then that was something I was saying in relation to Buffy and Faith wouldn't their kissing styles be just as different as Buffy and the Buffy bots at least at first?

Yeah but I think the difference is that Buffy was never incapable of kissing forcefully or seductivly if she wished, she could do both. The bot however, was programed to be forceful and sexy and not tender, she really wasn't capable of this so it stands out a lot more.

Hmm I had forgotten about that fact though as I said I can't really think of much evidence to support the fact that Angel would be able to sense her. Though if anyone else can think of anything feel free to post it. As for blaming no I don't think I'd blame any of the guys certainly not in real life anyway. I was just curious what people thought about the issue.

Mmm well I'm not sure really, we don't know really know how that works. All we know is that it has been established that when they around eachother, even if they can't see one another they can sense the other one is there. Whether Angel would be able to sense it wasn't Buffy or not? Well I ain't entirley sure, I think he'd have a pretty good shot though but as you said we couldn't blame him if he didn't.

[Paradise]

Riley was always a little on the DUH side. I think Angel probably would've been able to tell, and Spike yeah. Both Angel and Spike were far more knowledgable about Buffy than Riley. Riley was so busy wanting Buffy he wasn't paying attention to the fact that there were a whole lot of abnormal things in Buffy's life.

Both Spike and Angel knew about the paranormal activity in Buffy's life. That's probably why Buffy needs men like Spike and Angel in her life. She needs stronger more non-normal men in her life who can survive all her crap.

[Bittersweettwit]

That may be a big part of it, though at this stage they were still kind of close and Willow did attempt to make Buffy and Tara meet. They did notice she was acting strangely, Xander is offended by her remark, Willow looks at her strangely when she notices Faith staring at her and Giles gives her a suspicious look when Faith asks what is up with Adam. If they hadn't even responded unusually towards her I think that would have been highly unrealistic because some of her behaviour was very different, but even in this verse I think it is understandable they wouldn't have guessed it wasn't Buffy.

It is true that at this stage that they are still somewhat close particularly in comparison to other parts of the season. But still I am sure that you would agree with me even at this point that their friendship was less than what it originally was. As for Willow wanting to introduce Tara to Buffy I interpreted that more as Willow not wanting Tara to feel left out. We know from previous episodes that Tara felt slightly left out though she also seemed to have accepted Willow explanation in fact she was almost happy about it! However I always got the impression that Willow still wanted to make it clear to Tara that she wasn't ashamed of her or anything along those lines. However perhaps that is just me It is true that they noticed some differences in Buffy's behavior but over all they appeared to ignore it not realizing that there could have been more to it. Even emotionally if not a Body Swap.

Well yeah I think at this stage if it had been someone else, they would have guessed. But Riley is new to the magic world, he asks how it is possible and in the following episode makes comments about how surprised he is to realise such things as spells are actually possible. He'd be as cynical about this stuff as we were at that point, even in that verse, because had had never had any idea bout the spells ect. I personally always thought she was so taken back because she just had meaningful sex with someone, she hadn't been used or wasn't just an object of sex and then when he tells her he loves her she freaks about because she has never experienced this before and he doesn't love her he loves Buffy. But perhaps it was both; it is entirely up to the viewer

I guess that I didn't take this particular point into considerable though I still firmly believe that Riley should have been more aware of the fact that something was wrong with body even if his thoughts didn't lie in the area of a mystical disturbance of sorts. What you have just stated is one of the things that I love about the Jossverse that there are certain elements to it, which can be left to the viewer to decide without having looked rushed or incomplete

Well yeah, at this point I don't think much argument could be made for Spike. Though one could argue he knew her well enough at this stage to know that she would have never tried to come onto him. All their encounters before that she had told him how much she hated him and was disgusted by him, to suddenly start coming onto him is a very big turn so perhaps he should have guessed? Really, I'm not sure, as we both have agreed on we can't really blame them for not knowing

While its true that Spike perhaps knew Buffy quite well or at least better than he previously had in the other seasons having now seen more of her everyday life rather than just the slayer side of her which he had seen in previous seasons such as Season 2 when he first entered the show. Then again we have got to remember that Spike is rather confident if not arrogant and perhaps if he was left under the impression that Buffy was drunk. Which frankly based on the way she was behaving in comparison to her ordinary self is a mistake, which could have been made. Then perhaps she would feel some sort of physical attraction to him that she wouldn't feel or at least admit to when sober. (BTW for those wondering I am not a Spuffy fan nor am I trying to imply that Buffy did indeed have feelings for Spike at this point. I am just saying this is perhaps how Spike viewed it )

Well I'm pretty much fanwanking here, but perhaps seeing that his face was so bloody he could seem the coppery scent of blood more than anything else. We know vamps can smell bloody pretty well, I suspect when they have large amounts of blood on their face the scent could pretty much cover everything else in the room. Perhaps it took him a moment to smell her until she got close enough for him to pick up on it? But really I do think it was because of the kiss.

Fanwanking? I am afraid that this is a term that I am not familiar with though I have seen it several times around the board. I assume that it means to draw your own conclusions to topics, which may not have fully been discussed, on the board? If not please feel free to explain it to me, as I like learning new fan terms And as I said previously while I do believe that a kiss is a great part of it. Perhaps it is something that we will never agree on and that's ok with me. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. I am just thankful you listened to mine

Yeah but I think the difference is that Buffy was never incapable of kissing forcefully or seductivly if she wished, she could do both. The bot however, was programed to be forceful and sexy and not tender, she really wasn't capable of this so it stands out a lot more.

I guess that what you are saying is rather true, but then from what we know of Faith is she too capable of kissing tenderly particularly at this stage of Season 4 when we have seen plenty of evidence to know that she is rather forceful in sexual matters. I respect what you are saying, but also feel the same argument can be made for Faith particularly at this point in the series.

Mmm well I'm not sure really, we don't know really know how that works. All we know is that it has been established that when they around eachother, even if they can't see one another they can sense the other one is there. Whether Angel would be able to sense it wasn't Buffy or not? Well I ain't entirley sure, I think he'd have a pretty good shot though but as you said we couldn't blame him if he didn't.

Yes of course and of course we wouldn't be able to blame Angel though still from what you said previously. I think it is fair to assume that he would have a better chance of it of Riley due to his much bigger familiarity with the supernatural.

Riley was always a little on the DUH side. I think Angel probably would've been able to tell, and Spike yeah. Both Angel and Spike were far more knowledgable about Buffy than Riley. Riley was so busy wanting Buffy he wasn't paying attention to the fact that there were a whole lot of abnormal things in Buffy's life.

Both Spike and Angel knew about the paranormal activity in Buffy's life. That's probably why Buffy needs men like Spike and Angel in her life. She needs stronger more non-normal men in her life who can survive all her crap.

Now I would have to disagree with this statement. While Riley did want Buffy then again why would the pair be going out if he didn't wish to be with her? But still I think its unfair to say that he wasn't unaware of the paranormal activity in her life. Especially considering the fact that he was the one through the initiative had been the one helping her with her patrolling etc I think he was more than aware of the abnormal things in Buffy life by this stage.

Perhaps what you have said is true though could you perhaps give me some edivence of why you think Spike and Angel would have guessed? And please lets avoid turning this into a thread for Spuffy or Bangel shippers to say how much better their relationship was than Ruffy.

[vampmogs]

It is true that at this stage that they are still somewhat close particularly in comparison to other parts of the season. But still I am sure that you would agree with me even at this point that their friendship was less than what it originally was. As for Willow wanting to introduce Tara to Buffy I interpreted that more as Willow not wanting Tara to feel left out. We know from previous episodes that Tara felt slightly left out though she also seemed to have accepted Willow explanation in fact she was almost happy about it! However I always got the impression that Willow still wanted to make it clear to Tara that she wasn't ashamed of her or anything along those lines. However perhaps that is just me It is true that they noticed some differences in Buffy's behavior but over all they appeared to ignore it not realizing that there could have been more to it. Even emotionally if not a Body Swap.

It was less than it normal was, but they were closer than they were than later in the season. I think Willow wanted to introduce Tara to Buffy for both reasons. Because she wanted her to meet her and because she didn't want Tara to feel left out. Willow did also make it quite clear though that she hadn't introduced Tara yet because she liked having something that was hers and not the whole groups, Tillow was always very private.

I guess that I didn't take this particular point into considerable though I still firmly believe that Riley should have been more aware of the fact that something was wrong with body even if his thoughts didn't lie in the area of a mystical disturbance of sorts. What you have just stated is one of the things that I love about the Jossverse that there are certain elements to it, which can be left to the viewer to decide without having looked rushed or incomplete

Well we aren't sure exactly how different Buffy was acting. We know that she probably wasn't into the bad girl games, evident by Riley's reaction. However, everything else about Faith's behaviour towards Riley is pretty consistent with Buffy. She clearly enjoyed the sex with Riley, so much so that they got so wrapped up in eachother they became a battery for a supernatual force. Buffy had always been pretty sexy and up front with him about the sex, the only difference in this case was that Faith wanted to play games.

Then again we have got to remember that Spike is rather confident if not arrogant and perhaps if he was left under the impression that Buffy was drunk. Which frankly based on the way she was behaving in comparison to her ordinary self is a mistake, which could have been made. Then perhaps she would feel some sort of physical attraction to him that she wouldn't feel or at least admit to when sober. (BTW for those wondering I am not a Spuffy fan nor am I trying to imply that Buffy did indeed have feelings for Spike at this point. I am just saying this is perhaps how Spike viewed it )

I see what you mean hear and yes it could be this, but then one could make the argument Buffy's odd behaviour in front of her friends could have simply been a result of her being extremely happy and giddy that Faith was out of their lives again.

Fanwanking? I am afraid that this is a term that I am not familiar with though I have seen it several times around the board. I assume that it means to draw your own conclusions to topics, which may not have fully been discussed, on the board? If not please feel free to explain it to me, as I like learning new fan terms And as I said previously while I do believe that a kiss is a great part of it. Perhaps it is something that we will never agree on and that's ok with me. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. I am just thankful you listened to mine

Fanwanking is a term which is given when fans change something that happened in the past of the show to fit the present. Sorry not a great definition, someone else can probably clarify it better. As for example, when Spike watches Buffy dancing in Schoolhard, since Spuffy happened some fans now fanwank this scene as the beginning of Spuffy. It is based entirley on fan's views of the show and isn't right or wrong, though some fans go a tad overboard with somethings but you shouldn't find that on a board like this.

I guess that what you are saying is rather true, but then from what we know of Faith is she too capable of kissing tenderly particularly at this stage of Season 4 when we have seen plenty of evidence to know that she is rather forceful in sexual matters. I respect what you are saying, but also feel the same argument can be made for Faith particularly at this point in the series.

Yeah but the Buffybot wasn't programmed to be kiss tenderly, she isn't a human she is a robot and actually can't physically kiss tenderly, she doesn't know how to. Faith could if she wanted to, but she isn't that person it isn't physically impossible for her to do this though. We will probably have to agree to disagree on this though

Yes of course and of course we wouldn't be able to blame Angel though still from what you said previously. I think it is fair to assume that he would have a better chance of it of Riley due to his much bigger familiarity with the supernatural.

Well yeah he would, and that also brings up the point about the Ats episode Carpe Nocturm. Angel's body is stolen by a horney old man who acts very different from Angel and yet no one suspects anything until Wes discovers he has been reading up on what a vampire is.

Now I would have to disagree with this statement. While Riley did want Buffy then again why would the pair be going out if he didn't wish to be with her? But still I think its unfair to say that he wasn't unaware of the paranormal activity in her life. Especially considering the fact that he was the one through the initiative had been the one helping her with her patrolling etc I think he was more than aware of the abnormal things in Buffy life by this stage.

Agreed, Riley wasn't up on the magics but he knew about Buffy's paranormal life and was quite involved with it. Riley patrolled with Buffy just like Angel and the Scoobs did.