Angelus&Darla VS. Spike&Drusilla

[basakbangel Live Forever. Find all posts View Profile Close basakbangel]

Despite of all the love&hate and other stuffs, with the braveness and the physical strength who would "kick-ass"?

While I'm writing this, I'm still thinking of the answer. the 4 big bads.. The best time that we can remember in buffy is, season 2. Well, the season that you'll think is not important because those character's strength have always been out there, now we're imagining them in a big battle just the 4 of them, whoa!

Which side would win?

[amy1234 Hellmouth Tourist Find all posts View Profile Close amy1234]

I think it would be Angel and darla, because i think when vampires get older there abilites and strengh grow and them two are the oldest, but thats all i basing it on really

[basakbangel Live Forever. Find all posts View Profile Close basakbangel]

I think it would be Angel and darla, because i think when vampires get older there abilites and strengh grow and them two are the oldest, but thats all i basing it on really

Aa yes, you're right. I didn't think of that. But before you said that I was thinking of Angel&Darla too. Not because of the age but they have a different strength which I don't know, they're more tricky so and with the strength they'd win. And also with the age, the probability is gonna be like more happening.

[omri SD-6 Find all posts View Profile Close omri]

Well.. Obviously Angelus Darla!. So much experiance... But there is the fact that Spike killed 2 slayers. there's so much to it then a simple shallow question.

[vampmogs Slayer Supporter Find all posts View Profile Close vampmogs]

In my opinion it'd easily be Angelus and Darla.

Spike is a lethal fighter, has killed two slayers yes, but I'm inclined to think Angelus could kill a slayer as well. Angelus beat the crap out of Faith and whilst Spike came close to killing Buffy so has Angelus. Not to mention the fact that Angelus has been alive longer and therefore would be stronger than Spike and IMO Angel is a better fighter than Spike so I think this would kinda apply to Angelus as well.

More importantly though, Darla could easily take out Dru. Dru is def the weak link out of Spike and Dru and I think would easily be the downfall in a fight with Angelus and Darla.

[kana Angel's Therapist Find all posts View Profile Close kana]

Angelus and Darla. They would work better in tandem.

[Paradise Hellmouth Tourist Find all posts View Profile Close Paradise]

I think Angeles and Darla actually cared about each other whereas Spike and Dru were all about sex. So I liked Angeles and Darla more.

[basakbangel Live Forever. Find all posts View Profile Close basakbangel]

In my opinion it'd easily be Angelus and Darla.

Spike is a lethal fighter, has killed two slayers yes, but I'm inclined to think Angelus could kill a slayer as well. Angelus beat the crap out of Faith and whilst Spike came close to killing Buffy so has Angelus. Not to mention the fact that Angelus has been alive longer and therefore would be stronger than Spike and IMO Angel is a better fighter than Spike so I think this would kinda apply to Angelus as well.

More importantly though, Darla could easily take out Dru. Dru is def the weak link out of Spike and Dru and I think would easily be the downfall in a fight with Angelus and Darla.

Angelus and Darla. They would work better in tandem.

I think Angeles and Darla actually cared about each other whereas Spike and Dru were all about sex. So I liked Angeles and Darla more.

Yes Angelus&Darla I think too. Spike killed two slayers but Angelus could've killed Buffy come on..

[vampmogs Slayer Supporter Find all posts View Profile Close vampmogs]

I think Angeles and Darla actually cared about each other whereas Spike and Dru were all about sex. So I liked Angeles and Darla more.

Really? Angel openly admits that he could never love or care for Darla because he didn't have a soul. On the otherhand both Spike and Dru admit that they loved eachother during Crush. Furthermore, when did we ever see Angelus and Darla act like a couple? It was more about seduction and sex, Dru and Spike were extremely lovey dovey at times.

[Maria Hellmouth Tourist Find all posts View Profile Close Maria]

I think Angelus and Darla because they were both smart and vicious. They also knew how to conserve their energy. Spike,despite having killed two slayers, had a weakness, that was Dru. Dru is just as vicious but she goes off into her own insane world from time to time and gets too emotional for a vampire. And where did Angelus learn the art of torture and savagery? Darla.

[Paradise Hellmouth Tourist Find all posts View Profile Close Paradise]

Really? Angel openly admits that he could never love or care for Darla because he didn't have a soul. On the otherhand both Spike and Dru admit that they loved eachother during Crush. Furthermore, when did we ever see Angelus and Darla act like a couple? It was more about seduction and sex, Dru and Spike were extremely lovey dovey at times.

How did I know you'd find a way to diss something else that I said. It's becoming a career for you. Actually Angel clearly stated he didn't love her, not that he didn't care for her and he clearly showed that he cared for her. Spike and Dru were never lovey dovey, it was always about murder and sex. Angeles and Darla were together for over a century, they went through a TON together, far more than Spike and Dru. It was a much deeper relationship especially when they both got their souls.

[vampmogs Slayer Supporter Find all posts View Profile Close vampmogs]

How did I know you'd find a way to diss something else that I said. It's becoming a career for you. Actually Angel clearly stated he didn't love her, not that he didn't care for her and he clearly showed that he cared for her. Spike and Dru were never lovey dovey, it was always about murder and sex. Angeles and Darla were together for over a century, they went through a TON together, far more than Spike and Dru. It was a much deeper relationship especially when they both got their souls.

Disagreeing with something you have said is very different from "dissing" something you have said. There is a pretty big distinction between the two and if you want to continue an argument we had weeks ago by all means do so, but I won't. Quite frankly life is complicated enough and I don't have the energy to hold a grudge against someone for a different opinion we shared on something from a television show.

Spike has always been the love's self-confessed "bitch." Lovers Walk is an episode that clearly demonstrates how in love he was with Drusilla. He was devastated when she left him because in his eyes the two shared something special. The hopeless romantic that he is, he states in Destiny "We're forever Drusilla and me" and as stated by Juliet Landau (Drusilla) which is later backed up by the writers of that episode, in this episode Spike actually opens Dru up to the possibility that perhaps she could love and be a vampire. This is the same kind of thinking that she carries for the rest of the series right up to season five's ?Crush' in which she tells Buffy vampires can love without a soul, if not wisely. I don't for a moment think this is the same kind of love we as humans experience but it is the twisted vampire love that is real to them. Angelus laughs off Spike's suggestion that Dru is his "destiny" and tells Spike that nothing in this life belongs to him, a perspective he obviously has when he views what he and Darla have. This kind of attitude towards love is only amplified when in the s3 episode Heartthrob Angelus and Darla scoff at James and Elizabeth's love, being cynical enough to suggest that given a centaury and the feelings will not last.

Spike states he loves Drusilla in Lovers Walk, Angel tells Darla that as Angelus he never could love her; isn't this enough proof that the Spike/Drusilla relationship was far more lovey dovey than the cynical seductive relationship between Angelus and Darla? When Buffy puts Dru's life in danger in ?Lie To Me' Spike makes all his henchmen stop and let their victims go, including Buffy, so she will not kill Drusilla. This is the kind of affection and devotion Spike has for Dru who is extremely precious to him. With Angelus and Darla it is a very different story. To save her own skin Darla batters Angelus over the head with a shovel and flees the burning barn when Holtz and his men surround them because the horse can only take one person's weight. In ?Heartthrob' Angelus tells Holtz and his men that Darla is at the docks with Elizabeth, something that angers James immensely who is actually in love with Elizabeth. There is a very clear distinction between how Angelus views Darla and what she is to him in comparison to Spike who is clearly devoted to Drusilla.

I don't really understand how you can say that Spike and Dru were more about sex and murder than Angelus and Darla? Angelus and Darla boast to the Master in ?Darla' about how they cut through villages, Darla brings Angelus the gypsy girl to feast on before they have sex in front of her, getting off on the seduction. The two were known for being incredibly murderous and cruel, they targeted Holtz's family for this reason alone. In the entire series we have only one actual sex scene shown between Spike and Dru in ?Fool For Love' whilst we have multiple sex scenes or sexual fantasies about Angelus and Darla in season two of Ats. I'm not suggesting Spike and Dru weren't partly about murder/sex but the show clearly depicted Darla and Angelus as this kind of couple rather than Dru and love's bitch Spike. On the otherhand we had many scenes of Spike and Dru leaning lovingly beside eachother on their bed, or Spike sweeping Dru off her feet in 'What's My Line Part II' whereas with Darla and Angelus we have no such scenes.

We also have further evidence of how the couples treat each other. Darla and Angelus physically abused one another, it was a common practice for them. As for example when Darla scratches Angelus across the face whereas Dru is so shocked when Spike batters her to the floor in ?Crush' because this is something he would never usually do. We also have the fact that Spike is incredibly loyal to Dru, hates to think that Angelus may steal her away from him. Whereas, before Dru realises the possibility of being in love with Spike she is banging Angelus who is technically still with Darla. This indicates to me at least that the Spike/Dru pairing was seen as far more romantic and lovey dovey than the Angelus and Darla pairing ever was.

Even when the Immortal sleeps with both Dru and Darla the reactions of the two male vampires is very different. Angelus hates the Immortal because he treats Angelus like an idiot, when as Spike points out he is legendary. When the Immortal shags Darla Angelus is so angry at the Immortal because he has violated something of his, Spike shrugs and admits that she is glowing. However, when Spike realises that the Immortal has slept with Dru he is outraged, not because the Immortal threatens to ruin his reputation but because he slept with someone Spike loves.

Notedly, we are talking about Angelus and Darla here, not Angel and Darla so in my opinion when both of them have souls it really isn't the same relationship and therefore cannot apply. Even with the souls the two do share a bond and Angelus obviously cares for Darla but we actually see no real grieving period when Darla stakes herself by Angel and never any admition of love whereas we have that plenty between Spike and Dru. Since we are debating who is the most "lovey dovey" love is the nescessary ingrediant here and even you couldn't deny that Angel admits as Angelus he was incapable of loving Darla.

[sometimeslola Hellmouth Tourist Find all posts View Profile Close sometimeslola]

It's funny how people dismiss 'love' between Darla and Angel/Us because Angel claims not have been possible because he didn't have soul. I for one, have to think twice before i go with Angel's words because the poor vamp is commonly confused.

Anyways. the Point. Since were talking 'love & vamp' and not to mention one of my two of my fav parings and all of my fav characters (Faith is the only one missing) I can't help but open my big gob. Now most of you go with what 'angel' said but simply we proven again and again that vampires can love and Angelus doesn't get a free pass in that one.

In ?Heartthrob' Angelus tells Holtz and his men that Darla is at the docks with Elizabeth, something that angers James immensely who is actually in love with Elizabeth. There is a very clear distinction between how Angelus views Darla and what she is to him in comparison to Spike who is clearly devoted to Drusilla.

He did care for Darla in his own 'devious' way. Yes, he did tell Holtz where Darla was with Elizabeth, probably due to the fact that he was probably still mad at her because she left him at the barn. Then did you see how she stood there for a moment looking worried? or maybe he sent holtz that way just because she hurt his feelings with the not caring. We may never know. But when Holtz has him and is asking for Darla's where abouts, he doesn't give it to him, he simply tell Holtz all bout her taste and later she comes for his rescue. They had the up and down relationship. I just find it Funny how other scenes (ones that are not to you taste) are dismissed.

Angelus laughs off Spike's suggestion that Dru is his "destiny" and tells Spike that nothing in this life belongs to him, a perspective he obviously has when he views what he and Darla have. This kind of attitude towards love is only amplified when in the s3 episode Heartthrob Angelus and Darla scoff at James and Elizabeth's love, being cynical enough to suggest that given a centaury and the feelings will not last.

At first Angelus wanted to give Darla everything 'the view' and she believes him. (just the way Spike is to Dru and Dru believes him) Angelus worshiped Darla in the 'early years' and she was his 'definition of bliss' Like Dru is Spike's 'Destiny' So like still incredibly young Dru and Spike... Darla and Angel had once been just the same. Given time. I believe Both Dru and Spike became the Angelus and Darla. As may new loves we have the 'honeymoon' period which i suppose with Vampires only last a 'century' or so... Take Dru treating of Spike and Spikes tactics as an response by the end of it all and its incredibly similar to the same thing Angel did with Darla and Darla to Angel. Spike and Dru are the same as Darla and Angel. Only Like many couples, they surpass the 'honeymoon' and sadly it soon becomes the marriage but it don't mean there's no level of care involved. So this why 'OLDER' Angelus&Darla later learns that the 'love dovey' don't last and Angelus warned both James and Spike of that fact. hey, the master suspected Darla and Angel/us never to last past an century...oh look at that they din't...but did...only the 'give you the world' died out until he got a soul.

Angelus and Darla boast to the Master in ?Darla' about how they cut through villages, Darla brings Angelus the gypsy girl to feast on before they have sex in front of her, getting off on the seduction. The two were known for being incredibly murderous and cruel, they targeted Holtz's family for this reason alone. In the entire series we have only one actual sex scene shown between Spike and Dru in ?Fool For Love' whilst we have multiple sex scenes or sexual fantasies about Angelus and Darla in season two of Ats. I'm not suggesting Spike and Dru weren't partly about murder/sex but the show clearly depicted Darla and Angelus as this kind of couple rather than Dru and love's bitch Spike. On the otherhand we had many scenes of Spike and Dru leaning lovingly beside eachother on their bed, or Spike sweeping Dru off her feet in 'What's My Line Part II' whereas with Darla and Angelus we have no such scenes.

Again you only look at your side of the story. Have you looked at how Angelus and Darla went about that scene? Have you noticed the playful game, the fact that she was giving him a present for his birthday? I suppose not. I suspect you haven't noticed how that sort of behavior is similar to Dru and Spike's. We have seen much more of the Dru/Spike love Dovey...but we had our glimpses of Darla and Angelus, this never means it was never there and we have proof that there was.

Oh, we oota remember those 'dreams' were meant to be what Angel wanted, what was in his mind...What made him tick. They we purposely...played out Dark! I don't mean to imply Darla and Angelus are not about sex. Hell no! Cause sex was so very important in their relationship and it seems its very important to Angel too.

Darla and Angelus physically abused one another, it was a common practice for them. As for example when Darla scratches Angelus across the face whereas Dru is so shocked when Spike batters her to the floor in ?Crush' because this is something he would never usually do. We also have the fact that Spike is incredibly loyal to Dru, hates to think that Angelus may steal her away from him. Whereas, before Dru realises the possibility of being in love with Spike she is banging Angelus who is technically still with Darla. This indicates to me at least that the Spike/Dru pairing was seen as far more romantic and lovey dovey than the Angelus and Darla pairing ever was.

Well. Did you notice how Spike went to get Dru back and what he did or the fact that it worked?...Noticed how Dru wanted the 'bad Spike'bak, wanted him to hurt her and when he did he got her back, his love wasn't enough...Maybe both Darla and Angel were more violent because they were much darker creatures by nature even when human and she was whore, his elder who wasn't prepared to have him who though himself the 'man' tell her what to do. It seemed like it was common, not taken seriously. Vampires, believe it or not like a lot of violence. Go ask Spike or Dru.

Even when the Immortal sleeps with both Dru and Darla the reactions of the two male vampires is very different. Angelus hates the Immortal because he treats Angelus like an idiot, when as Spike points out he is legendary. When the Immortal shags Darla Angelus is so angry at the Immortal because he has violated something of his, Spike shrugs and admits that she is glowing. However, when Spike realises that the Immortal has slept with Dru he is outraged, not because the Immortal threatens to ruin his reputation but because he slept with someone Spike loves.

AGAIN! Did you notice how he first flies to her side, looking worried? No i suspect not! I do admit Angelus was possessive unlike Spike. So this is more about personalities at best because Spike can be possessive, only Spike cares much more and he did so in that scene but not as much as Angelus who also did show care for Darla but just was a bit more possessive about it. Spike and Angelus are opposites. So...its all down to who they were before,their personalities. Come on! Both Dru and Spike are sensitive so its likely that more love doevy will show. Darla and Angelus were not so much and enjoed sex a bit more...that also showed!

Notedly, we are talking about Angelus and Darla here, not Angel and Darla so in my opinion when both of them have souls it really isn't the same relationship and therefore cannot apply. Even with the souls the two do share a bond and Angelus obviously cares for Darla but we actually see no real grieving period when Darla stakes herself by Angel and never any admition of love whereas we have that plenty between Spike and Dru. Since we are debating who is the most "lovey dovey" love is the nescessary ingrediant here and even you couldn't deny that Angel admits as Angelus he was incapable of loving Darla.

Like I said before I can't just go on Angel's word since He changes his mind about being, not being Angelus a lot! But the Angelus/Angel is not the debate here. Even though I think the soul bullshit is crap!...it was the same relationship...only they felt feelings a bit more, in that all 'human' way when the soul was shoved down their fraughts!

About the grieving thing. Well he did have son to take care of...and um...he did have Buffy before. But did you see how happy he looked when he found out she was back, did you noticed how he didn't deny Wes when he suggested he was only feeling guilty for staking her. Only because we didn't see it like we did when Buffy died, Didn't mean he didn't feel it. Plus, unlike Spike...Angel is not a drama queen. Spike is!

Its all down to the individual people...and it's never all the same. More of this and less of that. But it goes both ways. Spike and Dru did have more 'love dovey' and less 'sex pain'...were as Darla and Angel were the opposite. But both did care for each other but were completely different people when alive and when dead! So unsurprisingly, completely opposites in relationships!

Plus. Darla loved Angelus, she even took him back. Maybe Angelus didn't love her as much back but he did just that little bit and just for her in his own way which is nothing like Spike's way. Also Angel later gave up 'the world' for her life, her second change. something He never did for anyone. Those feelings only come if someone cares for someone and those feelings came from Angelus. U can deny and make Angel whose souled' sound like an ass and say he just did that for his own salvation. Your choice.

I just think. Thse are four different people. Who have two different ways of seeing things.

Spike& Dru were soft and tender when human. We know that, what the vampire was before will be part of what he will always be Or something along those lines. But what I mean is... Spike & Dru had always been the chaste, gullible types. Angel/us and Darla are nothing but the exact opposite. They knew nothing of love, more of lust and the other stuff.

This made their relationship completely different. I think its simply unfair to compare cause this are two opposites but still contain love dovey...just in different scales.

I personally think. Angel/us and Darla's saga was LOVE...and so was Spike's and Dru. I just know that Love comes in all shapes and sizes and its never the same. I know that forever don't mean forever. It means we part and we meet again sometime. I know that LOVE hurts and ends.

But then I'm loves bitch. So my argument might not be all that.

AS FOR WHO WOULD WIN. IT'S Darla and Angel not only because they are sane, older and work together better and Darla made Angelus...but also because Angelus made Dru and Darla/Angelus raised Spike and Dru.

I just think. they would just say sit and Spike/Dru would either sit or roll over but never bite, unless told to do so. I just mean...it's mommy and daddy we are talking about here.

they would so win when they work together. Go ask your parents if you have them. who would win?

I hope i made some sence.

[ThePoet's<3 I am NOT Twilight!! Find all posts View Profile Close ThePoet's<3]

Spike and Dru! Bad + Crazy!!!!

True Angel and Darla are older and more experienced, but I LOVED when Drusilla came back in Angel to bring Darla back - She was Kickin' A!

And Spike - well what can I tell ya - he's always been bad...

[Nikki Mighty Power Find all posts View Profile Close Nikki]

Got to be Spike and Dru for me. It's not even close! While I love Angelus and Darla they don't have the comedy level that Spike and Dru have. I love their whole relationship right from start where Darla suggests Dru vamp the first guy she sees!!

They way they both helped each other to get better, fed each other and well Dru being crazy and Spike sarcastic just made for really great viewing for me as I appreciate those relationships more than any other kind!

I was watching the commentary on Lies My Parents told me and they were saying that Spike had more humanity in him that any other vampire on the show, a part of William lived on in Spike, and you can see that in the way he cares for Dru and goes William pathetic in Lovers Walk after she broke up with him.

With Angelus and Darla I hated how their story seemed to change. He killed her so easily in season 1 Buffy but by Angel season 2 he was saying that he almost used Buffy to get over Darla the love of his life. I think as Angelus he was incapable of love, and Darla certainly seemed to leave him to die whenever she could. I do love them as a couple but they can't complete with Spike and Dru

[vampmogs Slayer Supporter Find all posts View Profile Close vampmogs]

Originally Posted by sometimeslola 
It's funny how people dismiss 'love' between Darla and Angel/Us because Angel claims not have been possible because he didn't have soul. I for one, have to think twice before i go with Angel's words because the poor vamp is commonly confused.

Well when Angel says this there is enough evidence to suggest he isn't confused. When Buffy and Angelus are possessed by the spirits of dead lovers Angelus is disgusted that there was love inside of him. He states he was "frickin violated" as he furiously tries to scrub the love out of him, saying he needs a "vile kill" to get that "crap out of his system." In my opinion this demonstrates that Angelus isn't a fan of love, most certainly hasn't experienced it before and doesn't seem to ever want to. Besides, out of everyone shouldn't we listen to Angel as he, better than anyone, would understand what Angelus felt?

Anyways. the Point. Since were talking 'love & vamp' and not to mention one of my two of my fav parings and all of my fav characters (Faith is the only one missing) I can't help but open my big gob. Now most of you go with what 'angel' said but simply we proven again and again that vampires can love and Angelus doesn't get a free pass in that one.

But Angelus is quite an anomaly in the vampire world. The Judge goes to burn him but cannot because he has no humanity in him, the Judge could however, sense humanity in both Dru and Spike as well as the book reading vampire he burns to a cinder. Angelus seems incapable of love, believe love has violated him when he is forced to experience it and takes a particularly sadistic approach to his killings making him very different from other vampires in the verse.

He did care for Darla in his own 'devious' way. Yes, he did tell Holtz where Darla was with Elizabeth, probably due to the fact that he was probably still mad at her because she left him at the barn. Then did you see how she stood there for a moment looking worried? or maybe he sent holtz that way just because she hurt his feelings with the not caring. We may never know. But when Holtz has him and is asking for Darla's where abouts, he doesn't give it to him, he simply tell Holtz all bout her taste and later she comes for his rescue. They had the up and down relationship. I just find it Funny how other scenes (ones that are not to you taste) are dismissed.

I specifically said in my post that I believe Angelus cared for Darla, in his own way he would have and Angel states as much. However, it is rather apparent Darla cared for Angelus a lot more than he cared for her, so whilst she may turn and look back at him with concern he most certainly doesn't show the same concern when he points Holtz in her direction. Pay back or not, this isn't the kind of thing two people do when in love with one another. I most certainly couldn't see Spike or Dru turning on each other, in all honesty could you? And after all, the entire reason behind my post was to show who were more ?lovey dovey' as I read my post, you seem to pretty much agree that Spike and Dru were shown to be just that.

At first Angelus wanted to give Darla everything 'the view' and she believes him. (just the way Spike is to Dru and Dru believes him) Angelus worshiped Darla in the 'early years' and she was his 'definition of bliss' Like Dru is Spike's 'Destiny' So like still incredibly young Dru and Spike... Darla and Angel had once been just the same.

Correct me if I'm wrong because my memory is a little fuzzy on the episode as I haven't watched it in a while, but doesn't Angel say how Darla was his ?definition of bliss?' Why are you so quick to agree with him in this instance but when he says he didn't love her, you say he is confused? I don't really see how you can have it both ways, to me that sounds like your taking one thing at face value but then picking and choosing what you believed Angel was confused about to suit your point? I personally believe Angel when he says he didn't love Darla but Darla was his definition of perfect bliss. We've seen how much Angelus was disgusted by the idea of love, so loving Darla wouldn't be his definition of perfect bliss.

Given time. I believe Both Dru and Spike became the Angelus and Darla. As may new loves we have the 'honeymoon' period which i suppose with Vampires only last a 'century' or so... Take Dru treating of Spike and Spikes tactics as an response by the end of it all and its incredibly similar to the same thing Angel did with Darla and Darla to Angel.

Dru was incredibly hurt that Spike had teamed up with the slayer, she felt betrayed. We never saw such hurt feelings between Darla and Angelus, though we did see Angelus banging Dru when he was supposed to be in love with Darla.

Spike and Dru are the same as Darla and Angel. Only Like many couples, they surpass the 'honeymoon' and sadly it soon becomes the marriage but it don't mean there's no level of care involved. So this why 'OLDER' Angelus&Darla later learns that the 'love dovey' don't last and Angelus warned both James and Spike of that fact. hey, the master suspected Darla and Angel/us never to last past an century...oh look at that they din't...but did...only the 'give you the world' died out until he got a soul.

I don't understand what your point is here though? In my earlier post I stated how I believed Angelus did care for Darla, albeit in a sick and twisted perverse way. Now your stating that they grew cynical with age, no longer the ?lovey dovey' couple which James and Elizabeth and Spike and Dru were. Does not this kind of agree with my entire point? That Angelus and Darla aren't this kind of couple but Spike and Dru represent it more? And just for the record, Elizabeth and James were still madly in love until Angel killed her, a century later.

Again you only look at your side of the story. Have you looked at how Angelus and Darla went about that scene? Have you noticed the playful game, the fact that she was giving him a present for his birthday? I suppose not. I suspect you haven't noticed how that sort of behavior is similar to Dru and Spike's. We have seen much more of the Dru/Spike love Dovey...but we had our glimpses of Darla and Angelus, this never means it was never there and we have proof that there was.

Playful doesn't automatically mean loving, playful can be seductive and sexual as well and the two end up having sex in front of the girl she captures for him, it is a incredibly sexy thing to them. Never did we see Darla and Angelus hold each other in a loving way, say they are sorry to one another when one snapped at the other, worried that the other may be to weak to go on, sit lovingly on the bed together and just hold each other without any sexual interaction.

Besides, again your openly stating that we've seen more of the lovey dovey stuff with Spike and Dru, which pretty much agrees with my whole last post- which was that Spike and Dru were typically the more lovey dovey couple than Angleus and Darla?

Well. Did you notice how Spike went to get Dru back and what he did or the fact that it worked?...Noticed how Dru wanted the 'bad Spike'bak, wanted him to hurt her and when he did he got her back, his love wasn't enough...Maybe both Darla and Angel were more violent because they were much darker creatures by nature even when human and she was whore, his elder who wasn't prepared to have him who though himself the 'man' tell her what to do. It seemed like it was common, not taken seriously. Vampires, believe it or not like a lot of violence. Go ask Spike or Dru.

Yes vampires like a lot of violence, but you can't deny how shocked Dru was when Spike battered her to the floor in 'Crush' because he did it for someone else, not because she wanted it or asked him to do it. And Angelus never asked Darla to gash him across her face so she could run off to her "precious Master," which in the meantime Angelus begins banging someone else.

AGAIN! Did you notice how he first flies to her side, looking worried? No i suspect not! I do admit Angelus was possessive unlike Spike. So this is more about personalities at best because Spike can be possessive, only Spike cares much more and he did so in that scene but not as much as Angelus who also did show care for Darla but just was a bit more possessive about it. Spike and Angelus are opposites. So...its all down to who they were before,their personalities. Come on! Both Dru and Spike are sensitive so its likely that more love doevy will show. Darla and Angelus were not so much and enjoed sex a bit more...that also showed!

So again what is your point? I never said they didn't care for one another, in fact I actually stated they did. My entire post was about how Spike and Dru were more 'lovey dovey' and Angelus and Darla were more about the sex, something you are saying in this very post- so what are you actually trying to say? Your not saying anything I don't already agree with.

Like I said before I can't just go on Angel's word since He changes his mind about being, not being Angelus a lot! But the Angelus/Angel is not the debate here. Even though I think the soul bullshit is crap!...it was the same relationship...only they felt feelings a bit more, in that all 'human' way when the soul was shoved down their fraughts!

But you did just go on Angel's word when he tells Darla she was his definition of bliss. So why not when he says something you disagree with? Why is he confused then but not when he says something you like to hear? I really don't see how you can say it was the same kind of relationship when they had their souls when they acted completely different? Firstly, they weren't sexually active anymore, Darla and Angel both worried about someone else other than themselves and Darla states that she won't be able to care for Connor with a soul. Isn't that an important point, both Angelus and Darla state how they can't love without a soul.

About the grieving thing. Well he did have son to take care of...and um...he did have Buffy before. But did you see how happy he looked when he found out she was back, did you noticed how he didn't deny Wes when he suggested he was only feeling guilty for staking her. Only because we didn't see it like we did when Buffy died, Didn't mean he didn't feel it. Plus, unlike Spike...Angel is not a drama queen. Spike is!

When was Angel happy about Darla being back? He was extremely angry that she was trying to drive him insane by pretending to be someone else.

Its all down to the individual people...and it's never all the same. More of this and less of that. But it goes both ways. Spike and Dru did have more 'love dovey' and less 'sex pain'...were as Darla and Angel were the opposite. But both did care for each other but were completely different people when alive and when dead! So unsurprisingly, completely opposites in relationships!

Again never did I state they didn't care for eachother, what I did state was that Spike and Dru were more 'lovey dovey' something you have stated multiple times yourself, so I really don't understand what point you trying to make to me?

Plus. Darla loved Angelus, she even took him back. Maybe Angelus didn't love her as much back but he did just that little bit and just for her in his own way which is nothing like Spike's way. Also Angel later gave up 'the world' for her life, her second change. something He never did for anyone. Those feelings only come if someone cares for someone and those feelings came from Angelus. U can deny and make Angel whose souled' sound like an ass and say he just did that for his own salvation. Your choice.

Angel is prepared to give his life in 'The Zeppo' for the world. Again, human Darla is in no way the same as vampire Darla and Angel is incredibly different in nature to Angelus.

Spike& Dru were soft and tender when human. We know that, what the vampire was before will be part of what he will always be Or something along those lines. But what I mean is... Spike & Dru had always been the chaste, gullible types. Angel/us and Darla are nothing but the exact opposite. They knew nothing of love, more of lust and the other stuff.

This made their relationship completely different. I think its simply unfair to compare cause this are two opposites but still contain love dovey...just in different scales.

This whole thread is about comparing them, whatever the issue I don't see it as unfair to compare them, how is that unfair? You compare two things to show their differences and, you yourself are stating how they are different- there is nothing unfair about this.

I just think. they would just say sit and Spike/Dru would either sit or roll over but never bite, unless told to do so. I just mean...it's mommy and daddy we are talking about here.

Spike most certainly "bites" when he betrays Angelus in 'Becoming II' when he strikes Angel in 'Lover's Walk' when he attacks him in 'In The Dark' and when he gets into a confrontation with him in 'Destiny.' After first meeting Angelus he attacks him because he sleeps with Dru, when has he ever been to fearful to bite back against Angelus? He has never been one to roll over or just sit there.

EDIT: From memory doesn't Darla state to Angel that she was his definition of bliss? If this is the case this says nothing about Angel's own feelings either, rather Darla's who apparently cared more for Angelus then he ever did for her.

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I admit I'm sound awfully bias and I somewhat felt as though you were dismissing Darla/Angelus relationship and I merely wanted to point out the differences and how I find it hard to compare the two pairs on the level of 'love' because they are so different, that despite how much Spike can love more than Angelus, never means Angelus wasn't capable in his 'tiny way'. (i'm a romantic)

Yes, I agree all the way he was cruel 'souldess' vampire, Not at all familiar with the 'love' feeling but my personal 'view' of love isn't only I care about you, I believe is everything put together-let tht be sex,pain and the lot. So maybe my argument in this apart, may simply be my own view in the concept and how Angelus fits into it.

Angelus/Darla spend so long together, She considered her sire-ing of him (a mate) as mythic, He took care of her and he was devoted to her despite her 'foul' treating of him which i believe may be a way of Vampires making sure the 'fledgling' is capable if surviving or is any worth at all (had Angelus not survived, he wasn't all that but he did and went back to her. That I suspect meant she was going to keep him around a lot longer) He could have never gone to meet her in Viena but he did despite her leaving him. Angelus had a devotion to her that effected Angel is plenty of ways.

Angels feelings for Darla came from Angelus because there realy was no other place to take it from and if Angelus had no feelings he shouldn't have felt for her at all. But he did, so somewhere inside Angelus had some sort of feelings for Darla (Maybe only her when he was Angelus)

He states he was "frickin violated" as he furiously tries to scrub the love out of him, saying he needs a "vile kill" to get that "crap out of his system." In my opinion this demonstrates that Angelus isn't a fan of love, most certainly hasn't experienced it before and doesn't seem to ever want to. Besides, out of everyone shouldn't we listen to Angel as he, better than anyone, would understand what Angelus felt?

But Angelus is quite an anomaly in the vampire world. The Judge goes to burn him but cannot because he has no humanity in him, the Judge could however, sense humanity in both Dru and Spike as well as the book reading vampire he burns to a cinder. Angelus seems incapable of love, believe love has violated him when he is forced to experience it and takes a particularly sadistic approach to his killings making him very different from other vampires in the verse

.

Nikki -With Angelus and Darla I hated how their story seemed to change. He killed her so easily in season 1 Buffy but by Angel season 2 he was saying that he almost used Buffy to get over Darla the love of his life. I think as Angelus he was incapable of love, and Darla certainly seemed to leave him to die whenever she could.

Agree with Nikki. I think Angelus in AtS and Angelus in BtS was two completely different people in so many levels. I also I can't ignore that fact and I agree with you that when he is 'souless' he is not at all close to understanding the concept of love. But 'love' to him and most people--is the 'buffy/angel' thing. Again I 'personally' don't think so. Love comes in so many different levels and Yes Angelus was incapable of the 'bangel' love but he was capable of being devoted to Darla and that to Angel is not seen as love nor it is with Angelus. But to me is, in some way in some level is Love.

I merely think can't hold o Angels word when he talks about himself and Angelus. What Angelus could do and coudn't. Because He says they are two different people but he's till holding Angelus bagage. I just think he is up and down with being Angelus or not. I just don't take his words on the concept, for I find it hard to belaive him when he talks Angelus because He says one things and sometimes 'small as they may be' Angelus does prove him different with Darla.

However, it is rather apparent Darla cared for Angelus a lot more than he cared for her, so whilst she may turn and look back at him with concern he most certainly doesn't show the same concern when he points Holtz in her direction. Pay back or not, this isn't the kind of thing two people do when in love with one another. I most certainly couldn't see Spike or Dru turning on each other, in all honesty could you? And after all, the entire reason behind my post was to show who were more ?lovey dovey' as I read my post, you seem to pretty much agree that Spike and Dru were shown to be just that.

Again i admit i may have not exactly gotten the exact point but I felt as though Darla/Angelus were dismissed because of their 'lack' of expressing it, compare to Dru and Spike. No I don't see Spike and Dru turning against each other just as yet since they are still young but I do feel, when given time they ll 'grow out' of the honeymoon period and somewhat become similar to Darla and Angelus...and plus Spike did somewhat turn against Dru in Buffy's favor (but again, he was in Love with Buffy, yet Dru was still Spike's 'salvation')

Correct me if I'm wrong because my memory is a little fuzzy on the episode as I haven't watched it in a while, but doesn't Angel say how Darla was his ?definition of bliss?' Why are you so quick to agree with him in this instance but when he says he didn't love her, you say he is confused? I don't really see how you can have it both ways, to me that sounds like your taking one thing at face value but then picking and choosing what you believed Angel was confused about to suit your point? I personally believe Angel when he says he didn't love Darla but Darla was his definition of perfect bliss. We've seen how much Angelus was disgusted by the idea of love, so loving Darla wouldn't be his definition of perfect bliss.

I Agree with you that Angel feels like he never loved Darla in 'the souled human, Bangel way' but Like i said before I 'personally' feel that love isn't so black and white. It can be twisted. I just think Darla and Angelus Loved each other but just In an incredibly 'dark, cruel' way. I never 'in the real world' condemn that sort of relationship but I can sympathise with the fact that no matter how 'horrible' it is... its still a kind of love. A love that shouldn't be happening but believe it or not it does happen.

I suppose 'confused' was the wrong word to describe Angel/us and his feelings about love and How Angelus was incapable of love or even my personal views in Angel/Angelus concept. I suppose in the Show is was commonly said that 'love' wasn't possible for the soulless but then Spike, Dru does love, the Marster seemed like he did love Darla and wasn't too happy to have her be staked, Darla loved Angelus in her own 'vamp' way. I just still think that Angelus did 'love' in his way just as all the other vampires did. But unlike James/Spike he deon't quite like the idea of it and tries his best to avoid it. Deny it.

Again. Never do i say this is the same 'love' Angel later learns to feel with a soul.

Yes vampires like a lot of violence, but you can't deny how shocked Dru was when Spike battered her to the floor in 'Crush' because he did it for someone else, not because she wanted it or asked him to do it. And Angelus never asked Darla to gash him across her face so she could run off to her "precious Master," which in the meantime Angelus begins banging someone else.

Dru was incredibly hurt that Spike had teamed up with the slayer, she felt betrayed. We never saw such hurt feelings between Darla and Angelus, though we did see Angelus banging Dru when he was supposed to be in love with Darla.

I agree Dru was hurt by Spike's violence and that 'again' i think is because of her nature and his. Which is not at all as violent as Angelus/Darla. Who are not ones to look all hurt when they get hit. She's whore with an ego. He's man with a huge ego. No way they'll show any weakness to eachother. Spike and Dru are open to that because they are somewhat sensitive sorts.

and No. there wasn't much 'betrayed' feelings going on between Darla and Angelus. Not even so much when they had souls either. Darla was upset that he staked her but she didn't seem surprised or in too many tears over it. I simply think they were older, more experienced and they knew much more about being vampires.

That- Angelus had told Spike. Nothing belongs to anyone. (Or something like that, I'm not all clear of the show either. Just watched more Angel and most of my views comes from that which is vague) Angelus never held it against her when she left him at the barn and just did what he did best and made her pay for it. Darla did the same with Angel. They simply were almost at war with each other for being so evil to one another but never in the end of the day did they take it seriously because that's how vampires are.

Vampires like to revenge. Spike did with Angel for the Dru thing, Darla did with Angel, Angelus did with Darla. It's all vamprie behavior. And I suspect with being vampires they are not faithful. Darla, Dru slept with the immortal, Angelus had his numerous play mates. As for Angelus sleeping with Dru, Darla knew of it. I'm sure Darla had her way with both Dru and Spike. I don't think normal 'rules' of love and relationship applies to vampires.

It's simply vampire behavior it has nothing to do with his 'dark love for Darla'.

I don't understand what your point is here though? In my earlier post I stated how I believed Angelus did care for Darla, albeit in a sick and twisted perverse way. Now your stating that they grew cynical with age, no longer the ?lovey dovey' couple which James and Elizabeth and Spike and Dru were. Does not this kind of agree with my entire point? That Angelus and Darla aren't this kind of couple but Spike and Dru represent it more? And just for the record, Elizabeth and James were still madly in love until Angel killed her, a century later.

So yea. Possibly we are debating for no real good reason since we sort of agree in most things. Dru and Spike are not the sort of coupled as Darla and Angel because they lived more in their feelings and sometimes on vampire ways of things (sex, torture). Darla and Angelus was more about the vamp way of things. But I still think given time they would be similar by point of views if spike stayed souless. As for James and Elizabeth. I simply say that James and Spike don't see the world or Love in the same way as Angelus or Angel does. Again, i think its down to having different personalities.

Besides, again your openly stating that we've seen more of the lovey dovey stuff with Spike and Dru, which pretty much agrees with my whole last post- which was that Spike and Dru were typically the more lovey dovey couple than Angleus and Darla?

I agree with you all the way here. I think Spike and Dru are the more 'love dovey' but I argue that Darla and Angelus did have the same just very little of it which you agree with. ...Say, when Darla comes in and see Angelus looking upset, she holds him for a moment unsure what was wrong with him. Only when she finds he has soul did she get bitchy. then later She revenges on the gympy camp in his honour after she sends him away. . So there was little bits of little hugs and stuff but 'again' Darla Angelus are not at all like Dru and Spike. So they don't go around expressing feelings for one another when the other is looking.

So again what is your point? I never said they didn't care for one another, in fact I actually stated they did. My entire post was about how Spike and Dru were more 'lovey dovey' and Angelus and Darla were more about the sex, something you are saying in this very post- so what are you actually trying to say? Your not saying anything I don't already agree with.

I was trying to explain that even though we might not have seen Darla/Angelus dwell on the 'love dove' as much as Spike and Dru. Never means there was a period of that kind. Take when Angelus wants to give the 'view' 'the upper world' she craved. That whole scene was lovey dovey between the two. That was early in their relationship, just like both Spike and Dru are. They are simply still young and beautifully gullible by nature. Most of the things we saw between Darla and Angel was after they grew out of the firs 'century'

But you did just go on Angel's word when he tells Darla she was his definition of bliss. So why not when he says something you disagree with? Why is he confused then but not when he says something you like to hear? I really don't see how you can say it was the same kind of relationship when they had their souls when they acted completely different? Firstly, they weren't sexually active anymore, Darla and Angel both worried about someone else other than themselves and Darla states that she won't be able to care for Connor with a soul. Isn't that an important point, both Angelus and Darla state how they can't love without a soul.

I agree with quite a lot that Angel says. But...I do not go on with his talk when it comes to Angleus because he keeps yo-yoing with begin concept Angelus or not. I agree with the fact that he 'thought' that Angelus never loved Darla in the way he later did Buffy with a soul because Vampire are truly incapable of that kind of love. But I believe they are capable of the 'twisted' love and Angelus had that for Darla and that to souled Angel who knew the 'healthy-ish' love... feels that whaever he may have felt for Darla was not love.

I personally do not believe THAT TO BE TRUE. I simply disagree with Angel.

As for the Connor Darla love. I agree Darla would find it incredibly hard, almost near impossible to love connor in the right way, in the way he deserved without a soul. If at all. I never ignored that, I agree with it, I do believe Connor needed the 'human' love and soulless Darla cannot love humans. However she can 'have twisted love' for her own kind, for Angelus who is her mate.

Angel and Darla with a soul... went about their 'relatioship' in the human way this time, not so much vampire. Simple as that because they till had the same sort of theme that Angelus an Darla did. I feel that those feelings are born from the vamp Angelus/Darla which must mean there was something there in the first place. When souled They still payed the games, they still where up and down about it, doing the revenge thing. Their relationship was still incredibly hard, they still mistreated each other. Only till they discovered she was going die...then the games stoped.

The dying thing made the two drop the games and deal with it. They avoided feelings and when the bomb got dropped. The two went nuts with it. Souls does that to you.

When was Angel happy about Darla being back? He was extremely angry that she was trying to drive him insane by pretending to be someone else.

When he saw her walking between the hot dog and clown... he stormed into his office...When he had his back to both Cordy and Wes, He had a SMILE on his face and A smile on Angel's face to me, means happy-ish. Then...LATER He got angry when he found out she was playing games and played right along. Just as she predicted.

Again never did I state they didn't care for eachother, what I did state was that Spike and Dru were more 'lovey dovey' something you have stated multiple times yourself, so I really don't understand what point you trying to make to me?

I'm glad we agree.

Angel is prepared to give his life in 'The Zeppo' for the world. Again, human Darla is in no way the same as vampire Darla and Angel is incredibly different in nature to Angelus.

Is this the one were Doyle dies? Because in that one he was trying to save people who are wroth it. Darla...already had her chance. Could barely save herself... I think Angel did it because he cared for her. It was simply for her.

And yes. Angelus would never do the same.

This whole thread is about comparing them, whatever the issue I don't see it as unfair to compare them, how is that unfair? You compare two things to show their differences and, you yourself are stating how they are different- there is nothing unfair about this.

I just feel they are utterly Different people. I was trying to show you that and it's simply unfair because when it comes to loving and vampires. Dru and Spike would run with the money. I was trying to point out the clear difference...that...there is pretty much no use. Spike and Dru Wins the 'Love Dovey vamp' competition.

I suppose the comparison between the love spike had for Dru compare to Buffy is more debatable. Somehow.

Spike most certainly "bites" when he betrays Angelus in 'Becoming II' when he strikes Angel in 'Lover's Walk' when he attacks him in 'In The Dark' and when he gets into a confrontation with him in 'Destiny.' After first meeting Angelus he attacks him because he sleeps with Dru, when has he ever been to fearful to bite back against Angelus? He has never been one to roll over or just sit there.

When both Darla and Angel (US) stand before Spike without trying to suck the world in. I'm sure Spike would 'try' to be a good boy. Knowing well enough it's no use. SPIKE had always had a sort of respect for Angelus despite their rivalry. ANGLE...Spike just hates him for not being Angelus and for begin him...and....well...Spike in the end of the day is sort of a wide eyed boyo when Angelus comes into the story. -He listened to Angel (thinking of him Angelus) when in that submarine, he wanted Angelus approval when he killed that slayer, how exited and sappy he got when Angelus first came to him and Dru.

But...Angel...oh. Not ever!

When Spike gets his soul. He's not so keen on Angelus...but i assume we are talking. Soulless Spike and soulless Angel.

From memory doesn't Darla state to Angel that she was his definition of bliss? If this is the case this says nothing about Angel's own feelings either, rather Darla's who apparently cared more for Angelus then he ever did for her

.

Yes she did. He agreed and did not deny and described all the things she did for him but He did however deny her ever making him happy...and that was because he had no soul. He cound't have loved her. Which i explained my feelings on that. Above.

Anyways. I personally think that Love is universal. It hurts and it heals...its good and bad.

---People tend to assume love is good by nature, only good things feel it. Example-Spike's feelings for Buffy wasn't love but an obsession. An obsession is only seen as an obsession when its an unacquainted love. If ever Buffy never felt the same way towards Angel, People would call it obsession.

I might not make sense as much sometimes and repeat myself. I have my dislike for Buffy/Spike and sometimes Angel/Buffy...But i know it was some sort of love...Sometimes not the best but to me it was still a kind of love. Same goes for many other relationships in the verse that had time to grow.

Same goes for Darla/Angel-us and Dru and Spike.

Love is nor evil or good. It occurs all.- hehehehe.

I don't mean to bite your head off. Something in you post just triggered me. Which by all means is a good thing. it's heathy to debate stuff.

STILL For the better vamp paring is Darla&Angel...they'll win in a fight. (was the 'First' question about who was strongest, who would win in a fight. right?)

In 'love dovey'...my money is on Spike&Dru.

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I admit I'm sound awfully bias and I somewhat felt as though you were dismissing Darla/Angelus relationship and I merely wanted to point out the differences and how I find it hard to compare the two pairs on the level of 'love' because they are so different, that despite how much Spike can love more than Angelus, never means Angelus wasn't capable in his 'tiny way'. (i'm a romantic)

We are all biased in our own kind of ways, in this instance I couldn't really care a less between either couples beyond just liking them for fun entertainment but don't worry I can be incredibly biased about other things.

Yes, I agree all the way he was cruel 'souldess' vampire, Not at all familiar with the 'love' feeling but my personal 'view' of love isn't only I care about you, I believe is everything put together-let tht be sex,pain and the lot. So maybe my argument in this apart, may simply be my own view in the concept and how Angelus fits into it.

For me it depends what kind of sex we are talking about. I'd never describe a one night stand as 'love,' sex between two people in a relationship can be an expression of love, although in some cases (I'm thinking of Spuffy as I say this, sorry Spuffy fans) I believe it can simply be about lust or passion, or a need to feel something. Pain can also be a result of love, but it also can't; I personally view it by a case by case situation.

Angelus/Darla spend so long together, She considered her sire-ing of him (a mate) as mythic, He took care of her and he was devoted to her despite her 'foul' treating of him which i believe may be a way of Vampires making sure the 'fledgling' is capable if surviving or is any worth at all (had Angelus not survived, he wasn't all that but he did and went back to her. That I suspect meant she was going to keep him around a lot longer) He could have never gone to meet her in Viena but he did despite her leaving him. Angelus had a devotion to her that effected Angel is plenty of ways.

I agree that there was some kind of devotion there, I think it'd be incredibly hard for Angelus not to at least admire Darla on some level. Angelus loved being a vampire, it opened up so many horrid doors for him an as a vampire Darla was almost a mirror to Angelus. She was capable of truly vile and horrid things, she got off on the pain much like he did, she schooled him in this way. I believe this would easily make Angelus smitten, so he is obviously drawn to her for a number of reasons. However, being as evil as they are, being as successful vampires that they are they won't let that get in the way of their own saftey; they will turn on eachother if need be.

Angels feelings for Darla came from Angelus because there realy was no other place to take it from and if Angelus had no feelings he shouldn't have felt for her at all. But he did, so somewhere inside Angelus had some sort of feelings for Darla (Maybe only her when he was Angelus)

I don't believe Angelus is incapable of feeling, he most certainly is not. We've seen him be happy, deviant, lust after people, become extremely agitated and angry. Just IMO I don't feel like he is capable of loving anyone. He had feelings for Darla, admiration, respect even and a devotion to her to some extent but I just don't believe it was ever love.

Agree with Nikki. I think Angelus in AtS and Angelus in BtS was two completely different people in so many levels. I also I can't ignore that fact and I agree with you that when he is 'souless' he is not at all close to understanding the concept of love. But 'love' to him and most people--is the 'buffy/angel' thing. Again I 'personally' don't think so. Love comes in so many different levels and Yes Angelus was incapable of the 'bangel' love but he was capable of being devoted to Darla and that to Angel is not seen as love nor it is with Angelus. But to me is, in some way in some level is Love.

Well I guess it is a matter of opinion and how one views the concept of love and what love is to them. I tend to agree with Angel in this situation because I guess my real definition of love would be Bangel, though I do concede that love comes in different forms.

I merely think can't hold o Angels word when he talks about himself and Angelus. What Angelus could do and coudn't. Because He says they are two different people but he's till holding Angelus bagage. I just think he is up and down with being Angelus or not. I just don't take his words on the concept, for I find it hard to belaive him when he talks Angelus because He says one things and sometimes 'small as they may be' Angelus does prove him different with Darla.

To some extent I agree with you and do understand what your saying. Angel seems to be very confused about Angelus and himself. Sometimes he refers to himself as being Angelus, other times he refers to Angelus as a seperate being entirley. The mythology of the show is often very hypercritical as well, we have enough evidence to suggest they are two seperate entities or that they aren't, really there is no right or wrong answer. I personally believe they are two seperate people because I look at what has been stated about the soul, about it being someone's essence, Buffy's soul went to heaven. I have to believe Angel with a soul is Liam in the vampire body, a Liam who has been shaped and formed into a new person because the memories he has of Angelus and what he has been through.

However, in saying that Angel has never really be confused about what he feels about Angelus or knowing what Angelus thinks. He remembers all of Angelus' thoughts, feelings and actions as if they were his, which is why I trust what he is saying in this instance.

Again i admit i may have not exactly gotten the exact point but I felt as though Darla/Angelus were dismissed because of their 'lack' of expressing it, compare to Dru and Spike. No I don't see Spike and Dru turning against each other just as yet since they are still young but I do feel, when given time they ll 'grow out' of the honeymoon period and somewhat become similar to Darla and Angelus...and plus Spike did somewhat turn against Dru in Buffy's favor (but again, he was in Love with Buffy, yet Dru was still Spike's 'salvation')

Not so much dismissed, but I was debating with Paradise who was the more 'lovey dovey' couple in the show. I was focusing on Spike and Dru because in my opinion, they have always been represented as this couple, after all Spike is the hopeless romantic and love's bitch. I agree that Angelus and Darla had a connection but I was just saying that Spike/Dru were represented as the more 'lovey dovey' couple in my eyes at least.

I Agree with you that Angel feels like he never loved Darla in 'the souled human, Bangel way' but Like i said before I 'personally' feel that love isn't so black and white. It can be twisted. I just think Darla and Angelus Loved each other but just In an incredibly 'dark, cruel' way. I never 'in the real world' condemn that sort of relationship but I can sympathise with the fact that no matter how 'horrible' it is... its still a kind of love. A love that shouldn't be happening but believe it or not it does happen.

I guess Angel is taking a human perspective of love because he had a soul. A vampire's sick and twisted version of love isn't something healthy or good, which is why I have such strong feelings against Spuffy s6. However, in terms of what we commonly view as love I agree with Angel in saying he was incapable of ever actually loving Darla because he can now understand what real love is, he experienced it with Buffy.

I suppose 'confused' was the wrong word to describe Angel/us and his feelings about love and How Angelus was incapable of love or even my personal views in Angel/Angelus concept. I suppose in the Show is was commonly said that 'love' wasn't possible for the soulless but then Spike, Dru does love, the Marster seemed like he did love Darla and wasn't too happy to have her be staked, Darla loved Angelus in her own 'vamp' way. I just still think that Angelus did 'love' in his way just as all the other vampires did. But unlike James/Spike he deon't quite like the idea of it and tries his best to avoid it. Deny it.

Yeah well we really do have to seperate how we as humans love and how vampires love. Their version of love isn't what we would call love, they themselves probably don't even realise this because it is all they know.

I agree Dru was hurt by Spike's violence and that 'again' i think is because of her nature and his. Which is not at all as violent as Angelus/Darla. Who are not ones to look all hurt when they get hit. She's whore with an ego. He's man with a huge ego. No way they'll show any weakness to eachother. Spike and Dru are open to that because they are somewhat sensitive sorts.

Agreed. And generally I don't believe Darla and Angelus view violence as a big thing because they embraced that dark side between them, they acted out on that darkside towards eachother often not always together. Spike was more of a romantic, Angelus and Darla were not, which is why they lashed out at eachother.

I don't mean to bite your head off. Something in you post just triggered me. Which by all means is a good thing. it's heathy to debate stuff.

I sensed that I had struck a nerve and then I looked up at your avatar and realised why Don't worry I wasn't as pleasent as I could have been either, I don't hold any grudges and it turns out we pretty much agree on everything Though I'm a lot more cynical about love than you

[redrevo Hellmouth Tourist Find all posts View Profile Close redrevo]

I'm thinking Angelus and Darla because Spike is too reckless. Half the time he doesn't know what he's doing, and that puts him at an enormous disadvantage. Even if Dru did not have her "mystery sickness" at the time, she would still be pretty much useless, considering vampires are apparently immune to her creepi - er, supposed psychic powers. The only reason I could see for Spike and Dru to win would be Angel's desire to play with his victims, which would go nowhere on Spike. Still, the brains win out over the brawn, especially since Angelus and Darla outnumber their opponents in sanity. (Side note: astronauts would win. )

[sometimeslola Hellmouth Tourist Find all posts View Profile Close sometimeslola]

Yeah well we really do have to seperate how we as humans love and how vampires love. Their version of love isn't what we would call love, they themselves probably don't even realize this because it is all they know

I write a book and you turn what i was trying to say into three lines!

I don't hold any grudges and it turns out we pretty much agree on everything Though I'm a lot more cynical about love than you

Yea. I'm a bit of a Loves bitch, every single argument I have round here is preaching universal love.