Were the big four gay?

[Julian]

Were the big four gay?

I've read an article recently called: http://slayageonline.com/essays/slay...on_Stanley.htm. And it portrayed ANGEL and Spike as having certain homosexual tendencies, Spike mostly. ANGEL wore leather pants when he was Angelus. (which IMO is not really that gay since a lot of people wore leather on the show) Beyond the "Eunuch" comment ANGEL seems pretty comfortable with his sexuality.
Spike on the other, wears the leather jacket of deceased Slayers (thus a woman's jacket), dyes his head blonde and paints his nails, which is kind of gay. kind of
Darla and Dru ? as a guy, these two are the best girls in the verse. They imply a lot of lesbian overtones as well as the hints of group sex: "Pony ride" comes into mind. Do these two seem like lesbians/bisexuals to you? You think about it.
Now, Before somebody gets angry, try to understand that I'm not trying to attack anybody's fandom but if you have the time read the essay on the link. It's pretty cool and enlightening along with numerous essays on the site.

[vampmogs]

People often speculate that Angelus and Spike may have had sex at some point in their past, given how open vampires are sexually and Spike's comment about them being intimate "that one time." It is possible but personally I don't see any gay tendecies in either of them. I think it is more wishful thinking for some, and each to their own I guess.

[KingofCretins]

They're not *human* is the thing to remember. Vampire sexuality and human sexuality are not the same. I think that is validated by both the apparent polyamory of Angel/Darla/Spike/Dru but also Buffy's observation about vampires and their view of love and sex in "Conversations with Dead People".

[Jenni Lou]

I think the writers included lines sometimes that the fans could interpret the way they wanted. Like that "intimate" line. I honestly think that was thrown in there because they knew there was always this big following of slashy shippers and they thought it would be fun to toss in a line about their "past."

As for dying hair and painting nails. Plenty of men do that. And they don't have to be gay. Hell, just turn on some music videos and check out some rock stars...and they wear make-up too!!

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I don't think they were gay, no, given the shagging of the opposite sex that they all did. I'd say that even emotionally, both Darla and Dru were very hetero indeed...their main emotional relationships were with men. Even though Darla and Dru had their buddy movie moments in season 2 of Angel, it was still All About Angel for Darla. Dru, I'm not sure...she was very attached to Darla in her own twisted way. The sexual aspects of their relationship seemed playful, but when it came down to it, I think they were more interested in men, on every level.

Angel(us) and Spike...they certainly had some sexual chemistry, and at least a one night stand...but again, they were both in love with/obsessed with women a lot of the time. They may have liked to play with men, but kept coming back to women.

They're not *human* is the thing to remember. Vampire sexuality and human sexuality are not the same. I think that is validated by both the apparent polyamory of Angel/Darla/Spike/Dru but also Buffy's observation about vampires and their view of love and sex in "Conversations with Dead People".

Vampire sexuality is fascinating. The sex = death thing...I guess it does have overtones of an Edmund White novel! But I got the general impression that vampires were more or less up for anything, though they still retained their overall sexual preferences/default options.

[Cordelia_Chase]

i think with Angel and SPike it was hinted at that once, and possible it did happen in thier past, but only once and never again. lol

As for Darla and Dru that really woundnt suprise me. As vampires seem to be increadably sexual creatures. So its kind just persuimed that theu would sleep with the same sex as well as the oppisit.

[Valyssia]

...And for some reason, after that charming intro, I just can't bring myself to read the article. So, I'm flyin' blind here people...

*scrubs her eyes* If I had glasses I'd be cleaning them.

Being gay has nothing to do with hair dye and nail polish. Nothing to do with mode of dress or how you present yourself to the public. You'd look at me in a crowd and think I was pretty plain. Odds are you wouldn't spot me for what I am immediately. In fact, I'd say 90% of you would just pass right over me and filter me out. Another face...

Here's the deal...

I know, in point of fact that one with heterosexual tenancies passing through life, taking in the details can and in fact does occasionally look at persons of the same sex and think to themselves, "he/ she is handsome/ pretty." That's a big part of star appeal and fandom. Hollywood assembles very physically appealing peoples all under one banner and tosses them under our nose for review.

Being gay is about how strongly you feel about that. Sexuality is fluid for all of us. I've been with both men and women. For reasons I refuse to share, I found that I women simply appealed to me more. I found the act more fulfilling. SO I'M GAY. *faints from the shock*

Spike wandered through life, he saw something appealing, he experimented, and found that it wasn't comfortable for him. *shrug* So what!

You can play the same scenario over with Angelus, Dru and Darla. Being dead and soulless, not really giving a damn what anyone thought might make it slightly different. Fact is if they did find comfort there, they'd be there. Vampires not so much for caring about what folks think.

The thing that totally kills this is the social stigma. I have yet to meet a "normal," heterosexual person and find that there was 0 experimentation in their past, once I got to know them. It just happens...for most of us. Being ashamed of it is moronic. It's a thing...deal with it...move on.

The rest of this is where you find comfort. It's chemical. What trips that trigger...what you feel good about...what makes you feel good. It's totally different for each one of us. Doesn't matter how normal you see yourself as being. You are different than the person you're sitting next to. The things that make you happy are just not the same. If they were the same then you'd be a bloody clone. So far, as I have it...livestock and plants are the only things we're cloning so pretty much unlikely that you're sitting next to your clone.

The formula as I see it is partially genetic and partially conditioned/ experience. The parts don't matter unless you think that it's a fine idea to breed these tenancies out of our society. If you do I feel badly for you. It's part of the diversity of the species. You'd be squashing a very interesting segment of the population that has something to offer. A perspective you might even end up missing for the squashing.

Enjoy your day.

Valyssia

[Cinderela]

...And for some reason, after that charming intro, I just can't bring myself to read the article. So, I'm flyin' blind here people...

Spike wandered through life, he saw something appealing, he experimented, and found that it wasn't comfortable for him. *shrug* So what!

You can play the same scenario over with Angelus, Dru and Darla. Being dead and soulless, not really giving a damn what anyone thought might make it slightly different. Fact is if they did find comfort there, they'd be there. Vampires not so much for caring about what folks think.

The thing that totally kills this is the social stigma. I have yet to meet a "normal," heterosexual person and find that there was 0 experimentation in their past, once I got to know them. It just happens...for most of us. Being ashamed of it is moronic. It's a thing...deal with it...move on.

Valyssia

And I edited Valyssia's post for space only. She so eloquently summed up so my feelings about sexuality in general that I could not improve on it.

As already said earlier by KingOfCretins, vampires are *NOT* human, when they were turned, they lost their humanity and all their stupid social inhibitions with it. To them, pleasure is pleasure, in whatever form it takes. They have no inhibitions holding them back. In that aspect, I wish our society would be more like vamps.

IMHO, labeling in general is the culprit here. Most labels won't stand up to any real scrutiny.

So, direct to the topic (fell off there a little, I think), I don't think of any of the vamps as "gay", I think of them as "pleasure seekers", wherever they find it.

[ThePoet's<3]

I don't think they were gay. However, experimental...maybe!

Clothes, hair, makeup, nails are mostly "trappings". I think the writer's liked to play around with possibilities.

Also, Spike's particular hair and nails were from the punk genre. It was very popular during the 80's. And the leather duster - from what I could tell - had a unisex look to it. (once the belt and loops are removed)

Here's more on punk fashion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_fashion

Got me a new pair of black Chuck Taylor's today...

[kana]

I agree that it was more to do with the fact that vampires are less inhibited than anything else.

As for being gay, it's possible they were just open minded which isn't necessarily a vampire thing aside from the lack of inhibitions. I'm sure there may be some bigoted vampires lol.

[Goddess Guidance]

Both series show that they were mostly into the opposite sex. I agree that they're experimental. Wasn't it said that vamps sire people who they're attracted to? Angel has sired men...

[Veverka]

Being gay is about how strongly you feel about that. Sexuality is fluid for all of us. I've been with both men and women. SO I'M GAY. *faints from the shock*

And I edited Valyssia's post for space only. She so eloquently summed up so my feelings about sexuality in general that I could not improve on it.

I agree entirely with Cinderela about Valyssia's post, but I just quoted the part I thought was cutest. *gives poor shocked Valyssia a glass of water and fans her so she can awake from her faint*

To the topic at hand, I'm totally convinced that all four have been up to all sorts of fun and mischief... like JenniLou said, it's written so those of us with dirty minds can enjoy it all on more than the one level. People whose enjoyment of Spangel is less will be less inclined to think this way.

I'm also amused by Kana's idea that some vamps are biggoted! Absolutely. They're all (evil) individuals and therefore quite unique about their own likes/dislikes/sexual preferences...!

[vampmogs]

Both series show that they were mostly into the opposite sex. I agree that they're experimental. Wasn't it said that vamps sire people who they're attracted to? Angel has sired men...

I don't think such a thing has ever been stated on the show but I could be wrong. There does appear to be a certain attraction there but this doesn't have to mean being sexually attracted to the person. Darla was attracted to Angel but sired him also because she could see the potential he had, as could Dru in Spike. Angel sired Lawson because they needed to get off the sub alive and one could guess Penn because he saw the potential he had if he were a vampire.

[vampcruella]

There are many aspects of vampires that make them fascinating-----human fear of being overpowered and having life force drained out, eternal youth, health, and good looks, and obviously the idea of vampirism as unrestrained sexuality. James Marsters commented on one of the Buffy DVD features on the sucking of blood as a sexual metaphor. Joss Whedon stated on a Season 5 Angel that Spike and Angel were vampires together, and of course there was a sexual history. Remember Spike's choices of words when referring to Angel? (Your enormous poof, poofter, Peaches) Remember Darla and Dru's display of affection on the street in Angel Season 2, that was taken by the truck driver as a "makeout session"? Remember the reference in Season 5 Angel to the girls' sexual romp with the Immortal, and their bathing together?

These creatures are not human----they are beyond any specific sexual orientation and endowed with all sorts of heightened powers---fast healing, strength and agility, heightened senses of hearing and smell, turning to dust rather than decaying if they are killed.

Just play Fool for Love again and pick up all the sexual imagery---Spike's toying with the pool cue, the cigarette, the twirling pole, his reference to fights with a slayer as a "dance", the huge pole that Angel threatens to ram through Spike in the mine shaft scene and the girls 'excitement, Dru sucking the blood of the Chinese slayer off Spike's finger, Spike's description of slayer Nikki Wood as "hot".

You can find this metaphor all through the Buffy and Angel series-------and you don't have to look very hard!

[ciderdrinker]

I can really see what Valyssia is getting at - being gay is still stigmatised in this world, and although I'm totally sure that it wasn't intended this thread kinda reinforces the ignorance out there about it.

Homosexual means men having sex with men, but has become to mean women/women too: Heterosexual means having sex with the opposite sex, and Bisexual means having sex with both sexes. In regards to vampires I believe there should be the term "Ominsiexual" - having sex with anything and everything.

In our society we have morals that restrict us from doing things that we consider "wrong" and these are always being challenged as whether they are actually wrong. Vampires don't live in society, they don't follow rules, they don't care about morals, so naturally they would have no problem having sex with anyone or anything as they would have no moral compass saying whether it was right or wrong.

As far as the big four are concerned, I can totally believe that they had all slept with each other at some point (and possibly other vamps at the same time), and I don't have a problem with it. I don't think they were in any shape or form "gay" in the traditional sense, but Omnisexual

[sometimeslola]

Firstly i otta say that I'm an extremely open minded individual so...um...I love the idea of it all.

FIRSTY, they are vampires, they are above the human way of thinking, petty rules or whatever. SO I'm sure they all did experiment a lot before, in so many devious ways and would in future if given the invitation. JUST because is fun and GOD says it's wrong.

SECONDY, it's true that they all had a prominent attraction to opposite sex. Mostly because TV don't want men kissing or any XXX content to go out in our TVs. I think...Joss may have been keen but never was allowed.

THIRDLY, there are under tones all the way. Hints to that side of things. BUT not gay...MORE LIKE BISEXUAL!

BI's I Believe are people who are attracted to the opposite sex and Sometimes they like to be with woman, other times men and more often than not bouth together. Although the fang four all had their favorites...They did have a abnormal like towards the same sex. Full stop.

Writes can have their fun, the basis are all there. Thanks to Joss.

Just put it down to the lucky four, not being stupid like most humans and just like have their fun...since they have no reference...they have no name...for it...whatever...it's all whatever...guy, girl...hell with it...it's still all the same in the end of the day....sex and love...it's just skin.

I just blame it on the society of today. I'm sure if we were more open minded we'd of seen a Spike and Angel kiss...or...a little flash back to tell us all about the things they did.

I don't think they were gay as in a way of life and style...maybe a little...but just more...DID NOT DIFERENTIATE GAY TO STRAIGHT...its just ALL THE SAME IN THE END OF IT ALL TO THEM.

SO...NO, not gay-gay...but gay.

HELL WITH IT, IT'S HOT and JOSS Knew it too!

you stop being blind...and be opend minded. will you?!

[vampmogs]

I'd just like to point out though that you can still be open-minded and say that they weren't gay. Whilst there still is a stigma about being gay our there in the community I think you'll find that often people are made to feel like they are prudes or close minded if they just don't see the possibility of characters sleeping with eachother.

I personally don't think it is a close-minded suggesting to say that Angelus and Spike did not sleep together. Apart from one reference when Spike says they were 'intimate' which could mean so many different things, there is nothing in canon to suggest they ever slept together. Whilst vampires may be pretty open in their sexuality, Spike in the day calls Angelus a poofter in one instance, which then causes Angelus to violently attack him for such a label. It was regarded by both vampires, in this instance to be an insult. They constantly fought over their women and never did we see them even remotely sexual towards one another.

If a fan chooses to see them being sexually attracted that is fine, if a fan doesn't it is fine it doesn't mean you are close or open minded though.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I personally don't think it is a close-minded suggesting to say that Angelus and Spike did not sleep together. Apart from one reference when Spike says they were 'intimate' which could mean so many different things, there is nothing in canon to suggest they ever slept together.

It's not close-minded (provided someone's interpreting it that way because that's what they believe played out in the show rather than because they don't want to see it, which are two different things, and I trust that no one here would be doing the second thing), but I do disagree. Or, at least, I disagree that they never got nekkid or a bit sweaty. They might not have actually had sex ? because, yes, intimate could mean a number of different acts. But I can't see that that line could be interpreted in an entirely non-sexual sense. It would be a very strange and out of character thing to say if Spike meant "we once had an evening of intimate conversation". A person might say that "we used to be intimate" or "we were intimate for a while", or even "there was one evening when we opened up to one another". But I don't think anyone would mean a platonic intimacy if they were talking about "that one?[time/occasion]". Unless he meant "that one year" or something! And Spike in particular, it seems to me, would be unlikely to remember a single evening of emotional closeness with Angelus?seems a bit thoughtful and considerate for him!

Aside from the UST that people see in their bickering (which is open to interpretation), Angelus clearly flirts with him in his headfcky way?.he wants to know if it makes him a "deviant" (ie homosexual, in this context) to want to share the slaughter?(gasp)?with another man". That whole scene is very sexually charged. Alone, it wouldn't mean they boned. But taken with the "that one?" comment, seems to me fairly clear that there's some kind of sex stuff going on.

But, no, they're definitely not gay. Just?well, two hot vampires?spending centuries together?with all that animal fire flowing in their veins?you would, wouldn't you?

Also, posh boys like William would see a bit of casual buggery as just what one does and then never speaks about. (my tongue, she is in the cheek firmly there btw.) Re the poofter insults...you can find homosexuals revolting, or a joke, while doing homosexual stuff. That's what hypocrasy's for

[Sid]

We know Spike and Angel are not at all gay because they expressed interest in guns in the episode "The Girl In Question." It is a scientifically proven fact that gay people (and when I say "gay people" I simply mean all liberals) detest guns and it's like vampire/cross when they even attempt to touch one. The greatness of guns is exampled in my avatar, in which MJ pops a punk-ass hitman while macking on gangster-skanks. The episode where Buffy claimed that guns don't help was wrong. I bet if I had a gun I could kill Buffy, especially if she was at the time sleeping. If Warren had stuck around after shooting Buff and accidentally Tara (lol) instead of running like a little girl, he would have accomplished what The Master, Glory and The First all failed to do. Guns are awesome. BANG.

Okay, okay. I'm finished.

I really do think Spangel is wishful shipper thinking, in all seriousness. My immediate thought when hearing Spike's "that one time" line drifted towards it being a standalone drunken experiment; maybe not even drunk. Sure, you can ship Spike and Angel as lovers if you wanted to, but if they were honestly gay/bi in the show's actual continuity, we would've known. That's not to stop any of you who are into the idea of shipping a non-canon pairing, though. Overtones aren't truth; in fact they may just be there to ignite discussions like this.

Yes, as vampires, they'll do whatever the hell they enjoy doing without worrying about what society thinks, but what's to say they'll enjoy man-on-man fornication? William is a bad poet as human; Spike is a bad poet as a vampire. William is heterosexual as human... and so on. But then again, I guess it might also depend on a lot of folks' philosophy on the fictional creature of Vampire. From everything I've seen, the Buffyverse version of the monster doesn't at all imply that they'll bang anyone or thing, unless that's the individual vampire's personality. Angel(us) and Spike are straight in my book. Angel loves women so much that he's afraid he'll become a soulless demon upon orgasming on one. In fairness to him, that's exactly what happened to me every single time I've ever done that.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

We know Spike and Angel are not at all gay because they expressed interest in guns in the episode "The Girl In Question." It is a scientifically proven fact that gay people (and when I say "gay people" I simply mean all liberals) detest guns and it's like vampire/cross when they even attempt to touch one. The greatness of guns is exampled in my avatar, in which MJ pops a punk-ass hitman while macking on gangster-skanks. The episode where Buffy claimed that guns don't help was wrong. I bet if I had a gun I could kill Buffy, especially if she was at the time sleeping. If Warren had stuck around after shooting Buff and accidentally Tara (lol) instead of running like a little girl, he would have accomplished what The Master, Glory and The First all failed to do. Guns are awesome. BANG.

Okay, okay. I'm finished.

That's either a complex piece of Swiftean satire, or we need to have a big smackdown fight. I'll go with satire. Requires fewer bruised knuckles for me.

I really do think Spangel is wishful shipper thinking, in all seriousness. My immediate thought when hearing Spike's "that one time" line drifted towards it being a standalone drunken experiment; maybe not even drunk. Sure, you can ship Spike and Angel as lovers if you wanted to, but if they were honestly gay/bi in the show's actual continuity, we would've known.

Yeah - Spangel as an ongoing pairing is the stuff of fanfic. But a one night stand, I'm pretty sure that's what was supposed to have happened.