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**Bre** · 08-05-07, 06:46 AM

Along with our awesome love for Bangel, another fascinating aspect is how we express that love, what we do to let others know that, dammit, we love them!

One thing that I always found was an excellent way to express that love was fanfiction. A reason to use those characters, mold them into something you want, make them fall in love in another universe or have sex in our normal 'verse. It's all fantastic, this molding of reality to your own desires, and what better characters than the epic couple of Buffy and Angel.

My thoughts are pretty muddled right now, sadly. lol - Anyone else?

**SaltyGoodness** · 14-05-07, 09:41 AM

Good point, Bre - I agree. Lovely to see that your first post on this board is in this thread

, btw! In fact, Bangel were what prompted me to read fanfic in the beginning, and to write my very first fanfic a little over a year ago.

It's actually been quite an age since I watched BtVS - well, until the other day, when I sat down with a new special man-friend

to share with him the delights of Buffy for the first time. We started right at the beginning - so lovely to see Buffy really not liking Angel to start with, teh hee.

**Bre** · 15-05-07, 10:12 PM

How weird that you say that because I just started watching Buffy from the very beginning myself. There's nothing like renewing love like watching something from the beginning, the epic beginning, lol, and seeing things you might not have seen, seeing relationships grow because you know where they're going to go, such as our precious Bangel. I always find it hilarious how different DB played Angel at the beginning, still trying to find his ground on the character, but if you think about it in a sense, it kind of makes a weird sense where their relationship is concerned.

And me as well, with the fanfiction. It was the first I read, the first I wrote, and that's how it will always be. For me, fanfiction is Buffy and Angel, and I find myself unable to write it for other shows, or even read it for that matter, because I'm still so invested in my fanfiction and that of others, mostly because their circumstances create so many different alternatives that are just delightful and delicious to read.

**Salvation** · 16-05-07, 10:49 PM

I just started to read Bangel Fanfic & i love it bcuz it's carry on with their love journy after the both shows ended & what's important to me that the fanfics give them the chance to do what they couldnt do on the show,which is not fair at all.

Count me in please i love Bangel like crazy.

**vampmogs** · 27-05-07, 08:25 AM

I wouldn't say I'm a Bangel fan but I respect their relationship for a number of reasons.

The most prominent being that Angel was smart enough to know that their relationship wasn't what Buffy deserved. I have the upmost respect for him and the decision he made (partly because he did it for my favourite character) which is one thing I like about Bangel.. which oddly enough is the end of it...

I also loved the whole Angelus/Buffy arc so through all the sappy drama, (which I love pays itself out in 'The Zeppo') I think Bangel had some great moments.

**Bre** · 14-06-07, 07:29 AM

One thing that I did always adore about their relationship was the reality it was based on. A great thing about Joss was his knowledge about life and what it can do to you, and his imagination even didn't go that far because it would lose that special ground with the fans. A great point to bring up was the fact that Angel was smart enough to realize that being in Buffy's life all the time, forever, was just not going to cut it. For the first three years of their relationship, he was the mature one, the one that had seen the world, knew what it was doing and its consequences on those around him, especially Buffy, regardless of his feelings.

Plus, it spoke to his faultless love for her as well as letting Buffy spread her wings and grow, both as a person and in her relationships, which was great for the series as well as her.

The one thing that I never liked was how... silly, I guess, they made Angel in his fifth season, concerning Bangel. He seemed so immature and lackworthy while Buffy was the one who was mature and seemed to have grown and gone to different places. And sure, Spike probably had a lot to do with that. Angel was very much so like Angelus (or, actually, the other way around because demon from human, eh?) in his jealousy, but he lost that mature level that I loved in the third season, and the first season of Angel.

**KingofCretins** · 14-06-07, 09:32 PM

I prefer Buffy/Angel to Buffy/Spike, but I don't *like* either of them. In the case of Buffy/Angel, I always thought it was kind of like Titanic. Two people in love with each other because the script says so. I've watched the flashback scene of Angel seeing Buffy, and didn't see her "holding out her heart for everyone to see" or whatever Angel said in "Helpless". In the case of Angel, I never figured out exactly what Buffy fell in love with other than the "I'm dark and brooding, so give me love" and "billowy coat king of pain" traits that the show actually pokes fun at in Season 4.

**Dorian's Kitten** · 14-06-07, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post

I prefer Buffy/Angel to Buffy/Spike, but I don't *like* either of them. In the case of Buffy/Angel, I always thought it was kind of like Titanic. Two people in love with each other because the script says so. I've watched the flashback scene of Angel seeing Buffy, and didn't see her "holding out her heart for everyone to see" or whatever Angel said in "Helpless". In the case of Angel, I never figured out exactly what Buffy fell in love with other than the "I'm dark and brooding, so give me love" and "billowy coat king of pain" traits that the show actually pokes fun at in Season 4.

Very True KoC, they never really show a falling in love process. He is just this mysterious older guy and then suddenly he's a vamp and they have a tragic love. Why? What do they have in common? We don't even see them have a decent conversation before the big tragic love bit.

Angel/ Buffy has some very sweet moments (the cross burning against his chest was a lovely touch) but I prefer Buffy/ Spike because we see feelings develop and change. Also Angel was so robbing the cradle; it was a little bit icky.

**redrevo** · 14-06-07, 10:19 PM

Very True KoC, they never really show a falling in love process. He is just this mysterious older guy and then suddenly he's a vamp and they have a tragic love. Why? What do they have in common? We don't even see them have a decent conversation before the big tragic love bit.

Absolutely. It seems more based on looks and the "sexy vampire thing" than personality or a strong friendship. They never have a normal conversation, never ask "how was your day?", Angel never does anything comically stupid, there aren't any elongated awkward moments, and everything is overdramatized. It's just weird cryptic "gorgeous in a really annoying way" guy -> vampire with soul and loads of sexual tension OMG!!!11one -> making out in the graveyard. And, well, Angel is really never given a personality other than "brood, darkness, angst." When she's near Angel, Buffy never loosens up, never smiles brightly. There was a great sequence in "Something Blue":

spoilered for long dialogue

Spoiler:

**Bre** · 16-06-07, 09:21 PM

Very interesting points being made here, and I love the direction this conversation is going, but let's remember this isn't a bashing thread, for either relationship.

First, I agree tha they never really had that falling in love process, but we have to remember that this was Buffy and Angel's first real love, so they fell hard, quickly. It's easy to say that when it's something that you know you shouldn't like, can't have in the long run, really makes it all that much more irresistable, thus the infatuation. But at the same time, we did get a few moments where they did have that normal, casual convo, a great deal of those moments being in the second season (Ted, Bad Eggs, etc) when Buffy pushes her normal ideas onto Angel and he gives in (ice skating), before the Angelus fiasco and the third season.

Compared to the Buffy/Spike relationship, they didn't have a lot of time to get to know each other. With Spike, Buffy had already have the dangerous, epic love with Angel and the safe, reliable love with Riley, and I have to admit that Spike was a weird mixture of those two. He was alway, always there for her, like Riley, but he presented a great deal of danger and a fear of love as well for Buffy. In the end, I don't think comparing them is really fair to either side, so let's get on with some happy Bangel thoughts.

I remember in the last thread at BWF that we were discussing a fic centering around Buffy and Angelus, and while it is a fantastic, fantastic story, it doesn't really focus on Buffy and Angel.

Here's a question that I'm sure could get some good convos going: What do you think would have happened had Angel not decided to leave, rather Joyce hadn't come to talk to him? Would he have stayed with Buffy through college? In that case, where would Buffy be as a person? Same with Angel? What about Cordelia, Doyle, Wesley, the characters from Angel? And what of Riley?

For me personally, I think Angel would have eventually left no matter what. After the Angelus thing, he knew that they could never truly be together, and maybe it would have happened that they accidentally slept together and then Angelus would be back, which would cause more heartache and hey, maybe he would really have thrown the world into Hell.

What does everyone else think?

**Dana** · 17-06-07, 11:33 PM

To start off, HELLO SIGN ME UP!!

Ok, now that that's out of the way, let me pick up the serveral questions disguised as one made by Bre above me.

I don't think Buffy and Angel would have slept together again, they knew the consequenses and even if they were as passionate as they were before it happened the first time I don't think they'd take it all the way. Angel might have left but it would probably have happened a long time into the future.. if ever. They faught for the good guys, they were the champions and they were an excellent team together. Watching them fight together was like a dance.

I don't think Riley would have come into the picture the way he did. There wouldn't have been this akwardness from the beginning as Buffy would have still been with Angel and not looked another way and she'd probably not act like she did since there was no need for flirting or falling for this boy (ok, I sound weird but I hope you get the point I'm trying to bring up here), he would just have become a friend of Willows and perhaps a friend of Buffy's but I don't see her cheating on Angel for Riley. Perhaps the whole Initiative storyline would have been brought in differently and I for one would have loved to see how they would have discovered this whole thing and how they would have stopped it had they not had Riley on the inside or Buffy as an ex-insider.

As Skip kinda showed us (even if he was kinda evil), had Angel and Cordy not run into eachother on that party in 'city of' she would probably have found her dream and pursued a carreer in television and movies. Perhaps "Cordy" would have actually been a reality and something the scoobies would have talked and joked about in Sunnydale.

Wes - I don't think he as a person would have grown into this man that he did over the years on "Angel". He wouldn't have fallen in with Angel, Doyle and Cordy. He could have turned up in Sunnydale some years later perhaps but who knows, maybe he would have turned into the person he was but it would have taken longer since he was without the 'safetinet' that was their group. We did see him find his own 'gang' during the fallout between Wes and Angel/the gang so perhaps he would have done that either way, only some years later. Maybe he would have bumped into Gunn sometime.. who knows?

Fred - Sadly I think she would have been stuck in Lorne's dimention and she would probably have been killed there, never gettinga chance to return to L.A.

Doyle - I honestly think he would have died sooner than he did on "Angel". One shouldn't forget his gambling problems and such and how Angel bailed him out of trouble a few times. I loved the guy but I don't think he would have survived much longer. OR he might have shown up in Sunnydale, helping the gang or getting Angel to find his own path.. just like he did on the show.

Buffy - I do think she would have gotten into college and tried to make it, and perhaps she would have been better at it with Angel by her side, since she wouldn't have had all those problems with Riley (one assumes since they wouldn't have known eachother as intimatly as they did on the show) and perhaps he could have been a better supporter during Joyce's illness and Buffy might have relied more on him and confided more in him than she did in Riley. But then.. who knows, maybe it would have gone the same way, Buffy leaving college to support Dawn, allthough perhaps Angel would have stepped up in this department.. one does remember him visiting Buffy by Joyce's grave. He would have supported her through anything.

Maybe Spike wouldn't have become the scooby that he did, since Angel was around. He and Buffy probably wouldn't have had the intimate relationship if Angel was around and perhaps alot of things would have gone alot different if he did become a scooby. Then they would have had two powerfull vampires and one slayer in the group.

What I'm also curious about in this question... would Buffy had died? Would she have been brought back to life? What would have happened in season 6/7 if Angel was still around? These are all very interesting questions and ones that I've thought of before.

There's always a 'what if?'...

**~M@rie~** · 18-06-07, 06:32 PM

First thing first, sign me up!!

To reply to Bre's and Dana's questions, I agree with Dana.

Buffy wouldn't have slept with Angel because they knew what would happen if they did. The thing I love the most about their relationship is that they are about to get pass the physical aspect and still have a very strong relationship.

However, I think that Angel would've left Buffy eventually. He knew that he was preventing her from living a normal life, well as normal as a Slayer's life can be. When Joyce went to see him, Angel understood and already knew why Joyce was concerned about them.

But, if he stayed, I think that Buffy & Riley would've been friends and we would've found out about the Initiative in a completely different way (which would've been really interesting). Spike would've probably been a Scooby but he would've been shadowed by Angel.

I think Buffy wouldn't have to die in "The Gift" because Angel would've probably save her and sacrificed himself instead. In AtS 3.01, Cordy tells the same thing to Angel and he seemed to agree with her on a certain level. If Angel died, Buffy would mourn his death for months and maybe sleep with Spike to try and feel alive again.

But who knows? Maybe something completely different could've happened.

**Ameer** · 18-06-07, 06:40 PM

Count me in!

Part of the reason I fell in love with Buffy 10 years back was because of Bangel. It was my first ship ever (as far as I remember) and I loved them to death, though, obviously, there was the occasional cheese factor. I suppose it has been difficult for me to accept Buffy with anyone else because Bangel was something that I had had a taste of from the very beginning. Most (not all) of the Spuffy shippers I've met began watching Buffy in its 6th and 7th season and so always preferred that over Bangel. It's refreshing to come across a Spuffy who likes Bangel too.

**Peace** · 19-06-07, 10:14 PM

I guess I don't really have to explain in here why I want to be listed

Please add me! It's been quite a long while since I posted in this thread (or in any threads, to be honest

). Thank you, Odelia, for starting a thread for our Bangel club! And I totally agree with all you on the reasons why Bangel matters. Plus, since Bre brought up the topic about fanfiction, I appeal to all of us, Bangel, to start the similar fanfiction discussion we had back in the days at the BWF. I'm not sure about the continuing of the discussion of TWSOAVS though. What do you all think about it? Should we go on or maybe someone had another fic for us to read and express some thoughts?
By the way, Bre, honey, if you won't write any new chapter for "Only time", I will kill you. I mean it.

I'm not going to explain why I love Bangel, everything's been already said by Bre and Odelia. I'll just add that to me Bangel is the greatest source of inspiration in fanart and the main source for positive emotions, no matter how much angst we have there. Bangel is addiction, it's the stimulus for making blends, reading fanfiction, go on working on the site, finding new friends and continue the friendship with old ones, because we'll never get tired nor of each other, nor of the relationship of Buffy and Angel. Am I right?

Here's a question that I'm sure could get some good convos going: What do you think would have happened had Angel not decided to leave, rather Joyce hadn't come to talk to him? Would he have stayed with Buffy through college? In that case, where would Buffy be as a person? Same with Angel? What about Cordelia, Doyle, Wesley, the characters from Angel? And what of Riley?

I think this question can lead only to another AR fanfic

Angel decided to leave long before Joyce came around, she was only the catalyst. If Angel stayed... I doubt Riley would come along. Cordelia would be ... well, dead (it anyways led to this), so as maybe Wesley and all the other future-to-be members of the Fang Gang. It's weir, though. All these people ? Wes, Cordy, Gunn, Fred ? Angel saved their lives in some way, but all of them eventually died. That is pretty much hopeless and makes you wonder ? was it worth that?
As for Buffy, well, let's face it that at the end of season 7 the curse wasn't an issue any more, the worlds and lifestyles of both Buffy and Angel ? that was a problem for them to get along. Definitely the changes Buffy went through after Angel left did affect her character; we saw the result in "Conversations with dead people". Actually my head's a little aching now, so I can't get any other thought about it. I'm not Joss (yeah, if you haven't noticed yet)

**sherrilina** · 20-06-07, 12:15 AM

Originally posted by ~M@rie~ View Post

Spike would've probably been a Scooby but he would've been shadowed by Angel.

I think Buffy wouldn't have to die in "The Gift" because Angel would've probably save her and sacrificed himself instead. In AtS 3.01, Cordy tells the same thing to Angel and he seemed to agree with her on a certain level. If Angel died, Buffy would mourn his death for months and maybe sleep with Spike to try and feel alive again.

But who knows? Maybe something completely different could've happened.

I doubt that Spike would have stuck around if Angel was there--Angel wouldn't have tolerated it, lol, he could barely stand Spike in ATS season 5, and asked Spike to go away as soon as he was physically able to do so. Or maybe Spiek would ahev stayed and Buffy would have caught them in the throes of passion one night when they were supposedly collecting information...

Sorry, the Spangel in me had to say that--but I don't think Spike would have become a Scooby or stayed in Sunnydale if Angel had been around.

Also, how could Angel have sacrificed himself in The Gift, when it was the blood that mattered--hers or Dawn? Unless he drank a lot from Buffy before hand, lol, but I don't think so....Cordy said Angel couldn't have died WITH her, a la Romeo and Juliet, not instead of her. So he could not have sacrificed himself for her b/c of the situation, and at most could have tried to stop the evil doctor guy from starting the sacrifice in the first place, as Spike tried to do--and honestly, I don't think he would have necessarily had any more luck than Spike in doing so, they're pretty evenly matched....but if Spike had been around it would have been interesting to see them bot dealing with Buffy's death together--I always wished I could see Angel's reaction to shoemone telling him that he wasn't the only vampire grieving over Buffy's death....

Originally posted by Ameer View Post

I suppose it has been difficult for me to accept Buffy with anyone else because Bangel was something that I had had a taste of from the very beginning. Most (not all) of the Spuffy shippers I've met began watching Buffy in its 6th and 7th season and so always preferred that over Bangel. It's refreshing to come across a Spuffy who likes Bangel too.

I think you aren't far off the mark--I first got a glimpse of Buffy during season 7, and so Spuffy was the first Buffy ship I was exposed to, during its more romantic stage. I didn't even know Angel had been on the show until I caught the cemetary scene in Chosen (thank goodness I didn't watch further and get spoiled about the end before I'd seen the whole series from the beginning!), when I thought a) wow, she sure has a thing for vampires, and b) why would anyone choose this Angel guy over Spike?! After all, Angel was hardly on his best behavior and making a good impression in that scene....

But then when I watched BTVS from the beginning, I did like Bangel a lot and rooted for it, enjoying their moments together, etc, though with the knowledge of Spuffy happening someday in the back of my mind, and rooting for their small moments as well (when he first sees her at the Bronze, their working together to put down Angelus). I still enjoy Bangel in seasons 1-3 of BTVS (and ONLY those seasons!), and season 2 is tied with 5 as my all-time fave season (which does have something to do with it being the epic season of Bangel, lol). I also like Bad Eggs, for example, though many hate it, partly b/c of the high rate of Bangel kissing per minute.

I do prefer Spuffy to Bangel, probably at least in part because of when I tuned in, but I still like Bangel in its proper time and place, during seasons 1-3 of Buffy....

**~M@rie~** · 20-06-07, 01:25 AM

Originally posted by sherrilina View Post

I doubt that Spike would have stuck around if Angel was there--Angel wouldn't have tolerated it, lol, he could barely stand Spike in ATS season 5, and asked Spike to go away as soon as he was physically able to do so. Or maybe Spiek would ahev stayed and Buffy would have caught them in the throes of passion one night when they were supposedly collecting information...

Sorry, the Spangel in me had to say that--but I don't think Spike would have become a Scooby or stayed in Sunnydale if Angel had been around.

Yeah, you're right. Spike & Angel wouldn't have been able to stand each other but if he stayed it would've been interesting to see them argue like an old couple. And, seeing them both mourn Buffy's death would've been really interesting; maybe they would've been able to talk about her together.

Also, how could Angel have sacrificed himself in The Gift, when it was the blood that mattered--hers or Dawn? Unless he drank a lot from Buffy before hand, lol, but I don't think so....Cordy said Angel couldn't have died WITH her, a la Romeo and Juliet, not instead of her. So he could not have sacrificed himself for her b/c of the situation, and at most could have tried to stop the evil doctor guy from starting the sacrifice in the first place, as Spike tried to do--and honestly, I don't think he would have necessarily had any more luck than Spike in doing so, they're pretty evenly matched....but if Spike had been around it would have been interesting to see them bot dealing with Buffy's death together--I always wished I could see Angel's reaction to shoemone telling him that he wasn't the only vampire grieving over Buffy's death....

Yeah, that's right. I forgot about the Summers' blood bit. I agree that Angel would've tried to stop Doc, just as Spike did. However, we'll never know if we would've been able to do more than Spike. I also agree that Angel would've probably killed himself after seeing that Buffy died. Or he would've stayed alive, just like he did, to try and honnor Buffy in saving innocent people; thus, giving him an "extra" purpose for fighting evil.

I was thinking about this the other day: do you think that Buffy would've been able to fullfill her duty as a Slayer if Angel decided to stay human in IWRY?

**Bre** · 22-06-07, 05:03 AM

First, I

Bangel!

The conversations are pretty.

Let's see... I guess it's the fanfic writer in me that would want them to sleep together. Let's not forget the fics that I have written. *blushes* <-- Only not really, because I did write them. He he. (And Peace, I know I suck life balls. It's my muse who continues to sit in the corner and eat her own hair...) Although I can't help but remember Buffy and Angel kissing when he came to see her for Joyce's funeral. He was there to comfort her, and while she did admit that she was extremely needy, he was a real connection from a time when it was possible, when it wasn't possible, when innocence was her thing and when things were still sparkly. With first loves, that stuff doesn't go away, and the romantic in me wants to believe that while Angelus would be a horrible consequence (again), they would find themselves in a passionate embrace of craziness, especially as Buffy got older, and discovered more of herself both as a woman and as a Slayer, just as she did with Spike. Something tells me that she would desire that danger that she had with Spike. (Regardless of the whole Spuffy vs. Bangel thing, both relationships, IMO, were very important for Buffy and I find both endearing for that very reason).

As far as the other characters, I think Cordy would be dead. Remember Winters? Lured her right into a trap and while she is from Sunnydale, that girl was desperate and would have easily fallen in as she did in the premier of Angel. Sad, true.

I agree with Dana on the assumptions on Wesley. I think they made Wesley that dark to make way for how dark he would become with the gang, and I honestly think he would have made his way back to London or something, maybe found another group to fall in with, someone to follow.

Boo, I'm getting off-track of the Bangel-ness.

I would love to discuss real quick the whole Spike and Riley thing in relation with Buffy and Angel. How fantastically different things would be! First, Buffy wouldn't have looked twice at Riley if Angel were still in the picture. Her one true love kicked to the curb for a college fling (in her eyes, at least)? Please! She would have found him boring and lacking the dangerous passion and misery that she had with Angel, which she thoroughly craved, and which she got with Spike. And Spike! He would have never gotten anywhere near as close with Buffy with Angel there, because she would have that miserable outlet with Angel (lacking the sex, of course, but they would both be in horrible denial, thus making the misery that much better... for both).

Marie, Marie, Marie! What a fascinating question you've asked. Would Buffy have remained in her Slayer duties if Angel had remained human?

I honestly think she would have no choice. She had been the Slayer, and she has had human sidekicks for the longest time who haven't died (yet), so I think it would be right of her character at the time to assume that Angel could do just as well. But he wouldn't, because instinct would tell him that he still has his vampiric strength when he actually doesn't, and then he would get pummelled to hell, such as we saw in IWRY.

Of course, letting my mind get away from me, I think Angel would have eventually died, regardless of how much Buffy wanted to protect him, mostly because he has a pride thing as well as a hero complex that you really can't kill (...). This, in turn, would turn Buffy in a rogue-ish Slayer, an all-work-no-play Slayer and she would go on a killing rampage of sorts and get herself killed. Very dark and morbid, but fascinating...

**Lexus** · 22-06-07, 12:12 PM

Yay, the Bangel Thread reborn. I kinda got out of touch with old one, which was near my home in my younger BW days

.

Anyway, why do I l

ve Bangel? Bangel was my first ship, it was the first tv couple which made me really cry, made me really hope, made me think. Buffy and Angel where on two separate layers totally unique and totally original. On one hand they were the Romeo and Juliet of the modern age, an epic tale passed on by time. On the other we where introduced to themes, and characterizations we had never seen on tv, between any other character. The first time I realized I loved Bangel was when Angel let a cross burn over his heart, and from that moment I shared in their combined grief, joy, and hope for a better future.

From Buffy's humble crush, B/A developed, their trails and tribulations only seemed to make their love stronger, and although it soon became clear their right for a happy future would never be realized their love remained, a sorid reminder of duty and penance in the fight of two champions.

Ok that's one reason why I love Bangel, but there are so many more reasons. I went through this entire phase where all I heard when I listened to music was how it related to Bangel, the fan fiction is amazing, and so completely varied from angst to the fluffiest fluff in the fluff universe. No matter where my tastes in television take me, I will always hold B/A in my heart as one of my favorite parts of the buffyverse.

**Sassy** · 23-06-07, 09:27 AM

Sign me up please.

There's so many reasons I like Bangel. One, I just love how in love they were. Even after Angel left they still cared and loved each other. Two, hey would do anything for each other. Three Angel left so Buffy could be happy even though they still loved each other.

Here's a quote I found that I think fits Bangel

I'm not supposed to love you, I'm not supposed to care, I'm not supposed to live my life, wishing you were there. I'm not supposed to wonder where you are, or what you do. I'm sorry, I just can't help myself, I fell in love with you.

Announcement

Always & Forever - the Bangel-shippers thread!

Always & Forever - the Bangel-shippers thread!

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